MaverickM11
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United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:01 pm

"A new International Monetary Fund (IMF) study shows that USD$5.2 trillion was spent globally on fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. The equivalent of over 6.5% of global GDP of that year, it also represented a half-trillion dollar increase since 2015 when China ($1.4 trillion), the United States ($649 billion) and Russia ($551 billion) were the largest subsidizers."

"Buckle’s analysis of the inefficiency of fossil fuel subsidies is illustrated best by the United States’ own expenditure: the $649 billion the US spent on these subsidies in 2015 is more than the country’s defense budget and 10 times the federal spending for education"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsm ... 9ceae64473
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aviationaware
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:08 am

The headline suggests that those are direct subsidies, i.e. cash paid out to the fossil fuel industry and is therefore misleading at best and, in the worst case, fraudulent. The Forbes contributor should be ashamed of himself for not explaining properly how those numbers were generated.

The ridiculous amount is calculated by taking some fictional "underpricing" of fossil fuels into account that are supposed to cover the environmental damage caused by them.

Now I am in no way a proponent of fossil fuels, I think they are inherently low tech and we should get rid of them as soon as possible, but this approach to measuring subsidies without disclosing it is just pure deception. The study itself of course is far more measured and acknowledges this fact (e.g. on page 6). The reporting on it is a disgrace.
 
sccutler
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:55 am

aviationaware wrote:
The headline suggests that those are direct subsidies, i.e. cash paid out to the fossil fuel industry and is therefore misleading at best and, in the worst case, fraudulent. The Forbes contributor should be ashamed of himself for not explaining properly how those numbers were generated.

The ridiculous amount is calculated by taking some fictional "underpricing" of fossil fuels into account that are supposed to cover the environmental damage caused by them.

Now I am in no way a proponent of fossil fuels, I think they are inherently low tech and we should get rid of them as soon as possible, but this approach to measuring subsidies without disclosing it is just pure deception. The study itself of course is far more measured and acknowledges this fact (e.g. on page 6). The reporting on it is a disgrace.


Hear, hear!

In order for tax treatments to be "subsidies," we would first have to accept the premise that the money (and the assets used to produce the money) belongs to the state. Obviously, not so.

Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.
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tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:45 am

sccutler wrote:
it has accomplished nothing of value.


aside of the national science standards.....

it is a state responsibility.


If states where responsible for education, why are states hell bend to dismantle education?

Texas Mullahs 2012 plattform wrote:
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.


and the result: Iran has better science standards in school, as a theocracy, than Texas, that pretends not to be one....

I guess keeping people too stupid to make decisions is a "state right" somehow...

In order for tax treatments to be "subsidies," we would first have to accept the premise that the money (and the assets used to produce the money) belongs to the state. Obviously, not so.


You are working from a, deliberately i guess, narrow definition of subsidy:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp

Removing a "burden" is a subsidy.

best regards
Thomas
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aviationaware
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:11 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Removing a "burden" is a subsidy.


Is that also valid if there never was a burden in your opinion?
 
Redd
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:12 am

sccutler wrote:
Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.

How would you maintain a certain standard across all states?

Education IS the most important thing we can assure young people, not only for their sake but for the sake of the progress of the country they live in. One key reason China will eventually overtake the USA in just about everything is the fact that they are seriously educating their population.

In China, STEM graduates outnumber the USA 8.2:1. And China isn't experiencing a brain drain anymore as they can actually pay these people a great wage. If I was an American I'd be very concerned with that. The USA soon won't have the talent to compete with China, and since it doesn't have manufacturing on any significant scale, how do you see America being able to compete with a dumbed down population? China's most significant economic weapon is education.
Last edited by Redd on Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:14 am

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Removing a "burden" is a subsidy.


Is that also valid if there never was a burden in your opinion?


If they are a matter of opinion, which climate change is not, of course.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
aviationaware
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Removing a "burden" is a subsidy.


Is that also valid if there never was a burden in your opinion?


If they are a matter of opinion, which climate change is not, of course.

best regards
Thomas


You didn't answer my question. It's never a matter of opinion whether there ever was a burden or not. There either was one or there wasn't one. So, assuming there wasn't one ever, is that still a subsidy in your opinion? Don't try to dodge.
 
tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:33 am

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Is that also valid if there never was a burden in your opinion?


If they are a matter of opinion, which climate change is not, of course.

best regards
Thomas


You didn't answer my question. It's never a matter of opinion whether there ever was a burden or not. There either was one or there wasn't one. So, assuming there wasn't one ever, is that still a subsidy in your opinion? Don't try to dodge.


yeah, i forgot the "not" at the end of: If they are a matter of opinion, which climate change is not, of course (not).

As the study was done under the premises that there is a burden, and science agrees, the question is rather pointless though.

best regards
Thomas.
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aviationaware
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
As the study was done under the premises that there is a burden, and science agrees, the question is rather pointless though.



How can science agree that there is a tax when there isn't?
 
tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:58 am

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
As the study was done under the premises that there is a burden, and science agrees, the question is rather pointless though.



How can science agree that there is a tax when there isn't?


Science agrees there is a burden. Removing that burden is a subsidy.

One could also consider Gross Negligence and Corporate Manslaughter charges against their management., since they have been aware of the consequences for decades.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
aviationaware
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:

Science agrees there is a burden. Removing that burden is a subsidy.


Since you don't seem to have realized that yet, when we talk about a "burden" here, we mean a tax.

There are taxes on fossil fuels in America. They aren't being removed. So by your definition, there is no subsidy. The study claims there is a subsidy because the taxes are not high enough.
 
tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:12 am

aviationaware wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Science agrees there is a burden. Removing that burden is a subsidy.


Since you don't seem to have realized that yet, when we talk about a "burden" here, we mean a tax..


The International Monetary Fund disagrees with you, and hence their findings are the basis of this discussion, what "we" mean is irrelevant to this topic..

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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casinterest
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:25 pm

sccutler wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The headline suggests that those are direct subsidies, i.e. cash paid out to the fossil fuel industry and is therefore misleading at best and, in the worst case, fraudulent. The Forbes contributor should be ashamed of himself for not explaining properly how those numbers were generated.

The ridiculous amount is calculated by taking some fictional "underpricing" of fossil fuels into account that are supposed to cover the environmental damage caused by them.

Now I am in no way a proponent of fossil fuels, I think they are inherently low tech and we should get rid of them as soon as possible, but this approach to measuring subsidies without disclosing it is just pure deception. The study itself of course is far more measured and acknowledges this fact (e.g. on page 6). The reporting on it is a disgrace.


Hear, hear!

In order for tax treatments to be "subsidies," we would first have to accept the premise that the money (and the assets used to produce the money) belongs to the state. Obviously, not so.

Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.


It always amazes me to read diatribe from people who have no clue how the Federal or state government works.

The money is of the people , by the people and for the people.

The US Federal Government issues money that has value due to the government and people it represents. The Taxes are paid in order to pay people that we expect to do the work the Government needs to do. Without that Trust and payment, the money has no value.

As for the Department of Education , we need it, otherwise the state of Alabama would be trying to teach kids that it is ok to be racist. In case you forget, it was the Federal Government that had to step in for those ignorant racists and desegregate the schools.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:41 pm

The department of education is needed to give oversight to all the states. Does anyone expect states to regulate themselves otherwise we will keep hearing about schools closing...

As for oil subsidies, tax breaks, whatever gives the oil companies massive aid. That should be reduced and fund other items such as energy alternatives, infrastructure, railways, and education. I get that the U.S. the largest oil exporter in the world as of today though oil should not be the only energy source. It is not healthy for our kids or the world.
 
Pyrex
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:43 pm

Is it possible to have a single thread on this board without the usual America-haters coming in and injecting their diatribe?

Back on topic, most often than not when the topic of "oil subsidies" comes up it tends to be brought up by ignoramuses who don't know the difference between revenue and earnings, bit out appears this time around they managed to use an even more specious definition of "oil subsidies", so congrats, I guess?
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casinterest
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:11 pm


Back on topic, most often than not when the topic of "oil subsidies" comes up it tends to be brought up by ignoramuses who don't know the difference between revenue and earnings, bit out appears this time around they managed to use an even more specious definition of "oil subsidies", so congrats, I guess?


The truth is we give tax breaks for drilling exploration and processing of oil.Thus making it cheaper to supply it, and lowering the tax base to encourage it. It is one of those special interest swampy deals of the government. It is still a subsidy, and we spend heavily on it as we spend heavily on transportation and energy for fuels and manufacturing. Thus the tax breaks do add up.

I do take issue with the numbers in the OP, as they do some hoop jumping to ignore subsidies that are a part of education as well.
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Dutchy
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:01 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Back on topic, most often than not when the topic of "oil subsidies" comes up it tends to be brought up by ignoramuses who don't know the difference between revenue and earnings, bit out appears this time around they managed to use an even more specious definition of "oil subsidies", so congrats, I guess?


The damage caused by the burning of fossil fuels isn't absorbed by the cost of fossil fuels in the market place, pollution is free and the cost of pollution is absorbed by society at large. Call it subsidies, call it something else, the fact is that fossil fuels are sold too cheap, thus, in essence, is subsidized by society.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DL717
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:30 am

PHLspecial wrote:
The department of education is needed to give oversight to all the states. Does anyone expect states to regulate themselves otherwise we will keep hearing about schools closing...

As for oil subsidies, tax breaks, whatever gives the oil companies massive aid. That should be reduced and fund other items such as energy alternatives, infrastructure, railways, and education. I get that the U.S. the largest oil exporter in the world as of today though oil should not be the only energy source. It is not healthy for our kids or the world.


Really? They are just giant bureaucracy of stupidity.

https://thefederalist.com/2019/02/19/fe ... e-failure/
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tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:40 am

DL717 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
The department of education is needed to give oversight to all the states. Does anyone expect states to regulate themselves otherwise we will keep hearing about schools closing...

As for oil subsidies, tax breaks, whatever gives the oil companies massive aid. That should be reduced and fund other items such as energy alternatives, infrastructure, railways, and education. I get that the U.S. the largest oil exporter in the world as of today though oil should not be the only energy source. It is not healthy for our kids or the world.


Really? They are just giant bureaucracy of stupidity.

https://thefederalist.com/2019/02/19/fe ... e-failure/


From the AG report they link to:

However, despite the need for improvements within SSRP, we
concluded that the Department’s rural education coordination efforts appear to be effective


With regard to objective two, we found that the Department is involved in various internal and
external rural education coordination efforts and that these efforts appear to be effective


From the GAO report they link to:

Data quality. Education lacks assurance that some state-submitted data are accurate.


In its 2016 report on the Rural Education Achievement Program, Education's Office of Inspector General (OIG) concluded that Education's inadequate monitoring of program grantees was partly due to its limited human capital capacity.


So, states deliver bs data, the department is understaffed to catch them doing it.

But the federalist did a nice job spinning it, likely relying on its readers not to check the source material.

Best regards
Thomas
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:34 pm

Biggest oil subsidy is not even considered, the $3Trillion and counting for mid East wars.
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tommy1808
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:52 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Biggest oil subsidy is not even considered, the $3Trillion and counting for mid East wars.


The study begins with the definition of subsidy they used, and it would be really hard to cramp that war under it.

Best regards
Thomas
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mham001
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:17 pm

Yes, the most obvious but ignored subsidy is the security provided keeping the oil lines flowing.
 
sccutler
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:43 pm

casinterest wrote:
sccutler wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The headline suggests that those are direct subsidies, i.e. cash paid out to the fossil fuel industry and is therefore misleading at best and, in the worst case, fraudulent. The Forbes contributor should be ashamed of himself for not explaining properly how those numbers were generated.

The ridiculous amount is calculated by taking some fictional "underpricing" of fossil fuels into account that are supposed to cover the environmental damage caused by them.

Now I am in no way a proponent of fossil fuels, I think they are inherently low tech and we should get rid of them as soon as possible, but this approach to measuring subsidies without disclosing it is just pure deception. The study itself of course is far more measured and acknowledges this fact (e.g. on page 6). The reporting on it is a disgrace.


Hear, hear!

In order for tax treatments to be "subsidies," we would first have to accept the premise that the money (and the assets used to produce the money) belongs to the state. Obviously, not so.

Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.


It always amazes me to read diatribe from people who have no clue how the Federal or state government works.

The money is of the people , by the people and for the people.

The US Federal Government issues money that has value due to the government and people it represents. The Taxes are paid in order to pay people that we expect to do the work the Government needs to do. Without that Trust and payment, the money has no value.


No, no, NO.

The value of the money lies exclusively in the value of the work done to earn the money. The sole and exclusive contribution the federal government has to the value of currency is preserving the rule of law and (relative) peace that allows commerce and the markets to operate.

casinterest wrote:
As for the Department of Education , we need it, otherwise the state of Alabama would be trying to teach kids that it is ok to be racist. In case you forget, it was the Federal Government that had to step in for those ignorant racists and desegregate the schools.


Again, woefully wrong. That responsibility rests exclusively with the judiciary (as it should).
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DL717
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:13 am

Redd wrote:
sccutler wrote:
Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.

How would you maintain a certain standard across all states?

Education IS the most important thing we can assure young people, not only for their sake but for the sake of the progress of the country they live in. One key reason China will eventually overtake the USA in just about everything is the fact that they are seriously educating their population.

In China, STEM graduates outnumber the USA 8.2:1. And China isn't experiencing a brain drain anymore as they can actually pay these people a great wage. If I was an American I'd be very concerned with that. The USA soon won't have the talent to compete with China, and since it doesn't have manufacturing on any significant scale, how do you see America being able to compete with a dumbed down population? China's most significant economic weapon is education.


We went to the moon without the Department of Education, never mind every other technological advance in this country that took place before 1980. I’m pretty sure we’d be fine without a $68 billion a year bureaucracy.
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seb146
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:28 am

Instead of saying "fossil fuel subsides" let's call it what it is: Corporate welfare. It is a government handout for corporations. The corporations get money from the government for doing nothing. Driving their big Cadillac Escalades and eating prime rib off welfare. But it's okay. That kind of welfare and waste of our tax dollars is fine for some reason....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:30 am

DL717 wrote:
Redd wrote:
sccutler wrote:
Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.

How would you maintain a certain standard across all states?

Education IS the most important thing we can assure young people, not only for their sake but for the sake of the progress of the country they live in. One key reason China will eventually overtake the USA in just about everything is the fact that they are seriously educating their population.

In China, STEM graduates outnumber the USA 8.2:1. And China isn't experiencing a brain drain anymore as they can actually pay these people a great wage. If I was an American I'd be very concerned with that. The USA soon won't have the talent to compete with China, and since it doesn't have manufacturing on any significant scale, how do you see America being able to compete with a dumbed down population? China's most significant economic weapon is education.


We went to the moon without the Department of Education, never mind every other technological advance in this country that took place before 1980. I’m pretty sure we’d be fine without a $68 billion a year bureaucracy.


So all those scientists didn't bother with edjumicashun. They just pushed buttons and the tube went boom and we was on the moon! Keep telling yourself that....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Redd
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:33 am

DL717 wrote:
We went to the moon without the Department of Education,


You did, with a very experienced and well educated German at the head of NASA... And many other well educated Germans, Americans, and other foreigners.

Image
 
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casinterest
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:12 pm

sccutler wrote:
casinterest wrote:
sccutler wrote:

Hear, hear!

In order for tax treatments to be "subsidies," we would first have to accept the premise that the money (and the assets used to produce the money) belongs to the state. Obviously, not so.

Other thing - the Feds should be out of the education business, anyway; it is a state responsibility. Disband the Department of Education; it has accomplished nothing of value.


It always amazes me to read diatribe from people who have no clue how the Federal or state government works.

The money is of the people , by the people and for the people.

The US Federal Government issues money that has value due to the government and people it represents. The Taxes are paid in order to pay people that we expect to do the work the Government needs to do. Without that Trust and payment, the money has no value.


No, no, NO.

The value of the money lies exclusively in the value of the work done to earn the money. The sole and exclusive contribution the federal government has to the value of currency is preserving the rule of law and (relative) peace that allows commerce and the markets to operate.


No, The government issues the money. The value of the work is secondary to the trust of the people and the government in that value. Otherwise we wouldn't be shedding jobs to so many countries.

sccutler wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As for the Department of Education , we need it, otherwise the state of Alabama would be trying to teach kids that it is ok to be racist. In case you forget, it was the Federal Government that had to step in for those ignorant racists and desegregate the schools.


Again, woefully wrong. That responsibility rests exclusively with the judiciary (as it should).

Judiciary? Hell no.
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afcjets
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:47 pm

seb146 wrote:
Instead of saying "fossil fuel subsides" let's call it what it is: Corporate welfare. It is a government handout for corporations. The corporations get money from the government for doing nothing. Driving their big Cadillac Escalades and eating prime rib off welfare. But it's okay. That kind of welfare and waste of our tax dollars is fine for some reason....

You must be extremely angry at Joe Biden.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:32 pm

DL717 wrote:
We went to the moon without the Department of Education, never mind every other technological advance in this country that took place before 1980. I’m pretty sure we’d be fine without a $68 billion a year bureaucracy.

This was at a time when science was strongly encouraged because we wanted to beat the Soviets at everything.

Today, a Texas school will likely tell you that God was the reason we went to the Moon and that the South was always kind towards slaves.

Let's eliminate federal standards. Have at it. Don't complain, however, when a college favors a student from the "liberal elite coast" over the "rural bumpkin" because the former has advanced studies while the latter thinks science is a hoax and math is useless. Education may be left to the states. Standardized admission tests are beyond the scope and will likely test students on expected subjects all across without adjustments.
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