seb146
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I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:31 am

Dragons exist in many cultures around the world and in various forms. I know scientists say the most logical theory about the dinosaurs dying off is a meteor strike. What if smaller dinosaurs lived on and evolved? Many lived through ice ages and evolved until the middle ages and were killed off by humans but also by diseases like the plague? This would explain a lot of dragon stories where humans are involved. It would also make sense because other creatures went extinct fairly recently like the dodo and the woolly mammoth. For dragons to be descended from dinosaurs makes sense except for the fire breathing part that comes up in European dragon lore.

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KentB27
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:02 am

I mean, it's not that ridiculous of a theory. Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.

I also kind of wonder if dragons were derived from large reptiles like monitor lizards. Or perhaps there were other large reptiles that were around back then that are no longer living today. Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.

I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?
 
N757ST
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:01 am

No bones, so no, not plausible.
 
santi319
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:12 am

N757ST wrote:
No bones, so no, not plausible.

Bingo.

This is more from people finding Dinosaur bones probably and adding the rest.

Fantasy creatures were the norm back then, look at Greek Mythology, Mayans, Egyptians, etc.
 
tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:20 am

seb146 wrote:
Dragons exist in many cultures around the world and in various forms. I know scientists say the most logical theory about the dinosaurs dying off is a meteor strike. What if smaller dinosaurs lived on and evolved?


They did. We call them "Birds".

Many lived through ice ages and evolved until the middle ages and were killed off by humans but also by diseases like the plague? This would explain a lot of dragon stories where humans are involved. It would also make sense because other creatures went extinct fairly recently like the dodo and the woolly mammoth. For dragons to be descended from dinosaurs makes sense except for the fire breathing part that comes up in European dragon lore.


we would have found fossils to beginn with...

There are reasons why dragon stories are sorta rare where large Reptiles and Lizzards live....

But that doesn´t mean one can´t have fun with it: Taxonomy of Dragons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjJLLvfeYi8&t

Includes how tongues "evolved" into breathing fire....

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Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:26 am

KentB27 wrote:
Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.


And yet no one has ever seen it...... or found one washed ashore, or took a picture of it...

Image

Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.


Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....

I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?


They are still around..
Image

best regards
Thomas
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c933103
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:38 am

By the way, dinosaurs are called "scary dragon" in Chinese
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Redd
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:29 am

N757ST wrote:
No bones, so no, not plausible.



If these were around when early people had been (slim chance) I can see early superstitious peoples thinking they may breathe fire.

Image
 
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:41 am

Do dragons REALLY lay eggs?
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Airstud
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:53 am

tommy1808 wrote:
They did. We call them "Birds".


Were the birds' reptilian ancestors dinosaurs though? Or did birds evolve from a different class of reptile?



Ya know what's a good bird, is the lilac-breasted roller.
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tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:03 am

Airstud wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
They did. We call them "Birds".


Were the birds' reptilian ancestors dinosaurs though? Or did birds evolve from a different class of reptile?
.


Birds are not descendant of Dinosaurs, they *are* Dinosaurs.

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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:56 am

seb146 wrote:
These are things I think about when it is a slow night at work......



First off... Keep doing that. What I used to think about in the slow hours at work turned into a book. So you can't go wrong with that.

seb146 wrote:
For dragons to be descended from dinosaurs makes sense except for the fire breathing part that comes up in European dragon lore.


The fire breathing thing always bugged me. The amount of thermo-transference involved should turn them into ice cubes, were they to unload that much heat that quickly.


KentB27 wrote:


I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?



The main difficulty I have with that is that there would have had to have been enough of a population base for them to sustain their existence. I feel like that should have left something behind at some point. OTOH, if their bones are hollow (as they'd have had to have been, given what we know about MTOW/MLWs), perhaps over a long enough time, those artifacts could have passed beyond the ability to salvage.

I won't say it's impossible (what would Caesar have thought about the idea of a T-Rex?), but it seems unlikely...
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tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:12 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
if their bones are hollow (as they'd have had to have been, given what we know about MTOW/MLWs), perhaps over a long enough time, those artifacts could have passed beyond the ability to salvage. .


So are all Dinosaur bones iirc, and we find those just fine ;-)

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N757ST
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:38 pm

Redd wrote:
N757ST wrote:
No bones, so no, not plausible.



If these were around when early people had been (slim chance) I can see early superstitious peoples thinking they may breathe fire.

Image


If we can find radiocarbon bones from that animal that date to a time that they might have existed along side humans, then he might have a point.

The fact is that dinosaurs died 66 million years ago, and contemporary humans have been around only 130,000 years. If dinosaurs existed between 66 million years ago and very recent history, we would have found not only bones but likely soft tissue evidence. We haven’t, so no, not plausible.
 
N757ST
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:44 pm

KentB27 wrote:
I mean, it's not that ridiculous of a theory. Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.

I also kind of wonder if dragons were derived from large reptiles like monitor lizards. Or perhaps there were other large reptiles that were around back then that are no longer living today. Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.

I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?


Loch Ness is 10000 years old. How would a dinosaur hang out 66,990,000 years waiting to populate a deep lake in Scotland. The Loch Ness monster isn’t a dinosaur, it’s a hoax and not a very well orchestrated one at that.
 
seb146
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:19 pm

As far as Loch Ness, it could be a sturgeon. When engineers were building the first dam on the Columbia River, they saw massive sturgeon. They didn't know what to think of it. Also, there are creatures in the sea we are still discovering. Divers in Oregon just discovered barrels labeled "Agent Orange" in Wallowa Lake. Think of all the sharks and dolphins and whales that have lived in the ocean and how many of their bones wash ashore? All of the bears and coyotes but the forest is not littered with their bones?
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TSS
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:08 pm

seb146 wrote:
As far as Loch Ness, it could be a sturgeon. When engineers were building the first dam on the Columbia River, they saw massive sturgeon. They didn't know what to think of it.


Possibly, but sturgeon seem to prefer the moving water of rivers over the still water of lakes, but there may be species of sturgeon adapted to lakes as well. Since all of the photos of Nessie have been proven to be fakes, current "sightings" could probably be attributed to localized winds rippling the surface of the lake.

seb146 wrote:
Also, there are creatures in the sea we are still discovering. Divers in Oregon just discovered barrels labeled "Agent Orange" in Wallowa Lake.


Yikes!

seb146 wrote:
Think of all the sharks and dolphins and whales that have lived in the ocean and how many of their bones wash ashore?


Sharks don't have bones, but as I understand it whale and dolphin carcasses wash ashore all the time in areas where they're common such as Alaska. This is gross, but whether or not a whale or dolphin carcass makes it to shore depends on the tides and winds beaching it before the gases from the fermenting stomach contents cause it to explode and lose its buoyancy. If the carcass blows before reaching shore, it'll sink like a stone. Occasionally a storm will wash up dolphin or whale bones which were traditionally then used to make jewelry, tools, or in the case of large whale bones furniture and even dwellings.

seb146 wrote:
All of the bears and coyotes but the forest is not littered with their bones?


After all the other scavengers of the forest have stripped a corpse of its soft tissues, beavers will eat the remaining bones for the calcium. That's why after a year all there was left of a certain aviator who went missing on the California-Nevada border was a gnawed-on wallet and a very few small bone fragments.

As for the root origin of dragon myths, my guess would be either dinosaur fossils, particularly those from mosasaurs, or fossil bones from subsequent mammalian megafauna.

Mosasaur-

Image
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einsteinboricua
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:52 pm

It could be that Europe took its cue from Far Eastern cultures. Travel used to take longer but word still got around. The expansion of Islam across the Middle East, for example, was fairly quick so using it as an analogy, the idea of these creatures spreading across the world isn't that farfetched.

One small flaw too: dragons are known to Nordic cultures so if dragons existed, they may have had a breed capable of living in the polar conditions. Why is it that cultures in the Americas never had dragons? After all, a version in the temperate climate could have made a home in Alaska or Canada before having further descendants in the Americas. For such powerful animals, you'd think they'd be able to fly from Fennoscandia to Iceland to Greenland to Canada or from Siberia to Alaska.
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TSS
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:22 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Why is it that cultures in the Americas never had dragons?


We did have at least two: Quetzalcoatl, which translates to "feathered serpent"- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

Also the "Horned Serpent", similar in description to a lindorm or lindworm of Northern Europe- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_Serpent#In_Native_American_cultures
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Kilopond
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:46 pm

c933103 wrote:
By the way, dinosaurs are called "scary dragon" in Chinese


That‘s very interesting. In an encyclopedia from 1905 I can read: „The Chinese call all fossile bones dragon bones“. Now the big question is, since when did they do so? Might it be that humans found well-preserved dinosaur sceletons thouthends of years ago? If so, that could be a plausible explanation of the global dragon myth.

By the way, the same article claims that a medieval depiction of a dragon in a church in Tuebingen, Germany resembles fossiles of the extinct species Zanclodon and Belodon. Both of those fossile types had been found in big numbers along the nearby Neckar river, it says.
 
seb146
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:47 pm

TSS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All of the bears and coyotes but the forest is not littered with their bones?


After all the other scavengers of the forest have stripped a corpse of its soft tissues, beavers will eat the remaining bones for the calcium. That's why after a year all there was left of a certain aviator who went missing on the California-Nevada border was a gnawed-on wallet and a very few small bone fragments.

As for the root origin of dragon myths, my guess would be either dinosaur fossils, particularly those from mosasaurs, or fossil bones from subsequent mammalian megafauna.


In the middle ages, we did not have science like we have today. They were not looking for fossils. I think they would have boiled bones down for broth and added vegetables but that would have been native animals. There are various creatures and events depicted on carvings from all over the world of things that we can not explain today. Maybe there was a super sized bat like creature that simply died off because there was not anything it could feed on? Vikings had settlements into Canada but little is known about their time in North America. They were not concerned with record keeping, from what I have read about Vikings.

So many people document every second of life recently. That was not always the case. Literacy was not a strong point back then for commoners. So, I wonder if that is one reason why dragons are simply legend? Few people had ways to communicate about the flora and fauna and were more concerned with which property belonged to who and how much one family had and armed movements that botany and zoology was not even a thing?

A side note for the Agent Orange containers in Oregon, DEQ says they were empty and the waters are, so far, testing negative for the substance. Still, it is concerning chemicals were dumped in such a pristine area and everyone just forgot?
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KentB27
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.


And yet no one has ever seen it...... or found one washed ashore, or took a picture of it...

Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.


Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....

I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?


They are still around..

best regards
Thomas


You're taking what I said too literally. I never implied that Loch Ness was real and I never said that dragons actually existed. And yes, we all know that bats and reptiles cannot procreate. That was not the point I was getting after........Use your imagination a bit more and think outside of the box a little bit.

N757ST wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
I mean, it's not that ridiculous of a theory. Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.


Loch Ness is 10000 years old. How would a dinosaur hang out 66,990,000 years waiting to populate a deep lake in Scotland. The Loch Ness monster isn’t a dinosaur, it’s a hoax and not a very well orchestrated one at that.


I never said that Loch Ness was real. I'm just trying to think of theories of how cultures came up with dragons. Don't take what I am saying too literally.
 
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:06 am

seb146 wrote:
TSS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All of the bears and coyotes but the forest is not littered with their bones?


After all the other scavengers of the forest have stripped a corpse of its soft tissues, beavers will eat the remaining bones for the calcium. That's why after a year all there was left of a certain aviator who went missing on the California-Nevada border was a gnawed-on wallet and a very few small bone fragments.

As for the root origin of dragon myths, my guess would be either dinosaur fossils, particularly those from mosasaurs, or fossil bones from subsequent mammalian megafauna.


In the middle ages, we did not have science like we have today. They were not looking for fossils.


In some parts of the world, you don't have to look for high-quality fossils; They're just there, weathering out of cliffs and hillsides every day. This is the case in the Gobi desert, in various places in the American west, and on the southern coast of England near Dorset where one of the first professional fossil collectors, Mary Anning, discovered numerous excellent specimens of icthyosaurs and other fossils from the Jurassic period. Fossils are also often found in quarries, and humans have been digging quarries since long before the middle ages.
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seb146
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:44 am

KentB27 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.


And yet no one has ever seen it...... or found one washed ashore, or took a picture of it...

Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.


Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....

I think it's a very plausible that there were large creatures or remains of large creatures around back when dragon lore started, otherwise where would people have gotten the inspiration from?


They are still around..

best regards
Thomas


You're taking what I said too literally. I never implied that Loch Ness was real and I never said that dragons actually existed. And yes, we all know that bats and reptiles cannot procreate. That was not the point I was getting after........Use your imagination a bit more and think outside of the box a little bit.

N757ST wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
I mean, it's not that ridiculous of a theory. Some people say the Loch Ness monster is likely a Plesiosaur or a descendant of it.


Loch Ness is 10000 years old. How would a dinosaur hang out 66,990,000 years waiting to populate a deep lake in Scotland. The Loch Ness monster isn’t a dinosaur, it’s a hoax and not a very well orchestrated one at that.


I never said that Loch Ness was real. I'm just trying to think of theories of how cultures came up with dragons. Don't take what I am saying too literally.


Chickens are supposed to have evolved from dinosaurs somehow. Science is still finding things at the bottom of the ocean so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that lake monsters could be a thing. Science is not absolute. I think the idea of Loch Ness monster and the Osoyoos monster and the Wallowa Lake monster are silly but I will not dismiss them because science. They probably do not exist but
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tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:58 am

seb146 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And yet no one has ever seen it...... or found one washed ashore, or took a picture of it...



Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....



They are still around..

best regards
Thomas


You're taking what I said too literally. I never implied that Loch Ness was real and I never said that dragons actually existed. And yes, we all know that bats and reptiles cannot procreate. That was not the point I was getting after........Use your imagination a bit more and think outside of the box a little bit.

N757ST wrote:

Loch Ness is 10000 years old. How would a dinosaur hang out 66,990,000 years waiting to populate a deep lake in Scotland. The Loch Ness monster isn’t a dinosaur, it’s a hoax and not a very well orchestrated one at that.


I never said that Loch Ness was real. I'm just trying to think of theories of how cultures came up with dragons. Don't take what I am saying too literally.


Chickens are supposed to have evolved from dinosaurs somehow.


They are not evolved from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs.

Science is still finding things at the bottom of the ocean so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that lake monsters could be a thing.


"Sea monsters" perhaps, but not lake monsters that wouldn't even find enough food to sustain themselves...

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Thomas
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seb146
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:

You're taking what I said too literally. I never implied that Loch Ness was real and I never said that dragons actually existed. And yes, we all know that bats and reptiles cannot procreate. That was not the point I was getting after........Use your imagination a bit more and think outside of the box a little bit.



I never said that Loch Ness was real. I'm just trying to think of theories of how cultures came up with dragons. Don't take what I am saying too literally.


Chickens are supposed to have evolved from dinosaurs somehow.


They are not evolved from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs.

Science is still finding things at the bottom of the ocean so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that lake monsters could be a thing.


"Sea monsters" perhaps, but not lake monsters that wouldn't even find enough food to sustain themselves...

Best regards
Thomas


I don't think Merlin and Knights Of The Round Table and all that are about chickens..... :D
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c933103
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:08 am

Kilopond wrote:
c933103 wrote:
By the way, dinosaurs are called "scary dragon" in Chinese


That‘s very interesting. In an encyclopedia from 1905 I can read: „The Chinese call all fossile bones dragon bones“. Now the big question is, since when did they do so? Might it be that humans found well-preserved dinosaur sceletons thouthends of years ago? If so, that could be a plausible explanation of the global dragon myth.

By the way, the same article claims that a medieval depiction of a dragon in a church in Tuebingen, Germany resembles fossiles of the extinct species Zanclodon and Belodon. Both of those fossile types had been found in big numbers along the nearby Neckar river, it says.

"Dragon bones" is still the name of a Chinese medicine ingredient nowadays. Internet say they're mainly ancient mammal bone fossil

See also: http://www.chineseherbshealing.com/dragon-bones/
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einsteinboricua
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.


Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....

What do you call a platypus then? What other mammal has a duckbill, webbed feet, and poison spurs on the back of its paw?

What about bats? What other mammal has the ability to fly?

Not saying that you can pair up a lizard and bat to procreate, but if we're to believe that all life has a common ancestor, then somewhere along the way, before species began to develop their own characteristics, there may have been creatures that possessed more than one characteristic. As they evolved, their more advanced counterparts survived while their original forms evolved into something else or failed to adapt and died off.
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tommy1808
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:31 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Bats could also have served as inspiration. Theoretically, combining a bat and a lizard like reptile would result in a dragon like creature.


Well, when you draw one. Problem is that Evolution can not "combine" stuff like that....

What do you call a platypus then? What other mammal has a duckbill, webbed feet, and poison spurs on the back of its paw?


Convergent evolution is what i call it
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westgate
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:21 pm

Regarding lack of fossil evidence of any large dinosaur species surviving past the mass extinction 56 million years ago, just because none have been found, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't exist even up until quite recently. How many millions/billions/trillions of dinosaurs once lived to have left only a few thousand fossil records behind that have since been discovered ? We have no idea how accurate fossil records really are of representing how diverse pre-historic animal populations were or depicting how many different species actually occured. There could be absolutely massive gaps in the fossil record and there could have been all kinds of fantastical and unimaginable features that once lived on earth. But we will never know about them simply because the evidence is buried deep in the middle of some mountain and will never be discovered.

For an animal to be successfully fossilised, for its remains to then survive intact until the present day without being destroyed by geological forces over tens of millions of years AND for it then be discovered by humans, really is quite an extraordinary occurrence. Sure, we have indeed found many remains, but compared to how many animals and species have actually lived on this planet, over tens/hundreds of millions of years, they are by and large an infentesimally small and insignificant representation of what once existed.

It's at least somewhat plausible that very small populations of large apex predators dinosaurs aka dragons survived for tens of millions of years after the mass extinction, hardly evolving and happily occupying their relatively small ecological niche, until perhaps eventually dieing out due to pressures from an increasing human population a few thousand years ago (similar to how a lot of megafauna all over world became extinct at the time). We'll never find evidence of them because at any one time there was maybe at most a worldwide population of a few hundred to a few thousand, maybe even less, but they managed to persever and reproduce for tens of millions of years nonetheless.

Not likely, but not entirely out of the question either.
 
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:29 pm

westgate wrote:
Not likely, but not entirely out of the question either.


Well, you can never proof a general negative like that.
Of course it is possible, but keep in mind that we do know that cultures that hard large lizards/reptiles dont have dragon myth, but many of the cultures that do have them, have them with stories taking place where they have those large lizards/reptiles. I am.also not aware of any prehistoric dragon myth either. When dragon stories survived until we starting writing them down, how did we never find a cave painting of one? .... does it make that impossible? No, but highly improbable.

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ER757
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:56 am

A log time ago I read a theory that suggested the "fire breathing" part of dragon lore probably came from people seeing crocodiles or alligators in the early morning when the humidity was high and their breath appeared as steam. Makes sense to me
 
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Re: I have a theory about dragons

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:18 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
their more advanced counterparts survived while their original forms evolved into something else or failed to adapt and died off.


Nice going.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

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Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos