...and an Education to many who have no idea how the uneducated and ignorant must contend with an advancing world.

'When They See Us'...the Netflix controversial 4-part mini-series of the true accounting of 5 teens falsely accused, convicted and imprisoned (6 to 14 years) for rape they did not commit.

Just finished this.

Such an egregious miscarriage of Justice not seen in the last last 75 years.

It is a very powerful presentation of the true event known as the Central Park Five.

I must say, the reality HAD to be worse. The brutality of men on young boys, black and white inmates and law enforcement, prison officials.

If you choose view this, be warned...it will force you shed tears.

If you think you have racist tendencies, this will force you to look at many things very very differently. You cannot be the same after viewing. Part four is the killer.

If you have no plans to see it...refrain from the negative defending of racism for a bit or watch and share your criticism.

Produced by Oprah Winfrey and Robert De Niro.

This will be a big part of the 2020 campaign for reasons seen in the 1st 20 minutes.

Again, not an easy watch...esp. the littlest of the kids breaks your heart as he falls apart as police detectives aggressively force a boy who hasn't a clue about sex to admit he committed rape.

Anyone seen it yet?

BN747

There are like 10 people on this site I really respect and trust. I know what you are doing and I agree but there are too many who think this is fake and who will read you to filth. Which is too bad. Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country. But, because the current MAGA climate, this will be seen as propaganda. Skin color is important. And it sucks. I hate that. BN, I love you and you do you and I will stand by you. Central Park Five is shady. Things happened behind the scenes.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

seb146 wrote:

There are like 10 people on this site I really respect and trust. I know what you are doing and I agree but there are too many who think this is fake and who will read you to filth. Which is too bad. Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country. But, because the current MAGA climate, this will be seen as propaganda. Skin color is important. And it sucks. I hate that. BN, I love you and you do you and I will stand by you. Central Park Five is shady. Things happened behind the scenes.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

Progressives and any that try usurping the Constitution need to go the way of the dodo birds. We get that y’all hate allowing freedom of thought and allowing citizens to exercise their God given rights but seriously...take a chill pill and learn to love your fellow man.

seb146 wrote:

There are like 10 people on this site I really respect and trust. I know what you are doing and I agree but there are too many who think this is fake and who will read you to filth. Which is too bad. Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country. But, because the current MAGA climate, this will be seen as propaganda. Skin color is important. And it sucks. I hate that. BN, I love you and you do you and I will stand by you. Central Park Five is shady. Things happened behind the scenes.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

Seb, thanks for the support and I value your A.net friendship as well, but trust me, I'm aware of the MAGA climate (can't wait til becomes Make America Gay Again, and it will as they seek to hide from embarrassment).. but, the recent rape accusation of the Sexual Predator-in-Chief (I see a resignation coming), Congress hearing Reparations testimony, Women battling anti-Abortion foes across the nation, @MeToo gathering steam...all of this should trigger a 'this is not the time' in MAGA Climate - but you know what, in life there's no such thing as 'the right time', the right time brought to the forefront by hammeringg the issue.

With MAGA ppl doing their upmost to convince ppl that living in the past is where the future lies is a failure from the outset because they have no conviction to anything - except selfishness and greed.
No conviction to country nor Consitution, No conviction to the Rights of any and every disenfranchised segment of the population.

They will place all their chips on a seriously flawed and damaged mind than anyone reasonable - because reason, rationale and logic are not important to them.

Agreed, they have nothing to offer an advancing world, but war, disruption and chaos.

I seriously do not believe a single conservative will watch this program for fear of exposing a truth to them in a manner that leaves them seriously perplexed and some serious self-introspection.

But I hope one proves me wrong and lifts the carpet of America and see what is under it....and shares his thoughts.

Seriously, not a conservative and watch this program and NOT come out a different person - they cannot do it,

The film is very powerful.

BN747

BN747 wrote:

Seriously, not a conservative and watch this program and NOT come out a different person - they cannot do it,

That is why they won't watch it. Or read the Mueller report, or the AG report, or, or, or...

Best regards
Thomas

LittleSprocket wrote:

We get that y’all hate allowing freedom of thought and allowing citizens to exercise their God given rights

Some of you really DO live in your own little MAGA bubble, don't you?

Scorpio wrote:

LittleSprocket wrote:

We get that y’all hate allowing freedom of thought and allowing citizens to exercise their God given rights

Some of you really DO live in your own little MAGA bubble, don't you?

Keep in mind: owning slaves, rape, religious persecution and xenophobic genocide are not just peachy for the lord, he commands it.
Hence all of that is "God's given right".

Best regards
Thomas

Like like many airplane crashes, several factors were involved with this case of injustice.

The crime rate in NYC, especially the murder rate, was several times higher than now.
The victim was a White female, took place in a what was seen to be a safe place for White people and the assumed attackers were non-White.
Pressure by the public upon politicians, police and prosecutors to get criminals. Many in the NYC area, including now President Trump, saw the high crime rates hurting the resale values and income from their properties from the high crime rates.
The local media, especially TV news, grabbed on to this story and hyped it up for ratings.
Prosecutors are in NYC elected so have political pressures to be tough on criminals, not anger the police with challenging their evidence and testimony as need them to get prosecutions, over prosecute, do what it takes to win re-election.
The NYPD was very violent then, willing to ignore constitutional standards to get criminals, especially those of Color. Big arrests might mean promotion or assignment to a less violent district.
The general racism of the time of the public, public figures including Donald Trump and political leaders.
The lack of and low pay for public defender lawyers, limited resources to provide a defense.

Many of these same issues are found across the country (and indeed the world). There are 10's of 1000's of people who end up in jail due to 'the system' and only rarely do we see situations of obvious miscarriages of justice rectified or prevented. Far too often the victims are persons of Color and poor, people with money or connections (like Donald Trump) get away with heinous crimes. It is far too infrequent that victims of maljustice get it fixed, often way too late, with years, even decades in jail, governments having to pay large cash payouts for the initial wrongs. I would like to see Prosecutors, Police Officers have to pay from their personal assets some of the civil judgments from their malfeasance and violations of Constitutional rights, to be under the threat of loss to discourage abuses that hurt people. .

I’ve not allowed myself to watch this program because I know it is going to infuriate me and I just can’t handle any more of the frustration I endure every day of watching Donald Trump sit in the Oval Office and no one willing to do anything to stop the destruction he is causing to the country. When things like trumps fueling the case against the Central Park Five are brought up his supporters say “ok, and?”; when he pardoned Joe Arpio his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he said “good people on both sides” his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he lied and said he wasn’t aware of the things Steve King had said about white supremacy his supporters said “ok, and?”...the list goes on and on. It is really frustrating that all of these things that cut deeply as a black person that people who support him say don’t matter to them because he is keeping his promises or because he is being tough on immigration or he’s fixing the economy, it just highlights how they DO NOT care about it. It’s no big deal to them. The man said Barack Obama should prove he was born in this country. He said a Hispanic judge couldn’t give him a fair shot because he’s building a wall. He said blacks had nothing to lose by voting for him rather than saying things that actually addressed issues that mean something. He went to a black church and pretended he gave a damn. Some ignorant advisor told him to just go to a black church and that’s all you need to get black votes. To him there’s no complexities to black people. We’re just people (to some degree, not REAL people) who are black. He said he didn’t want black people working in his casinos. He and his father were sued by the federal government for discriminating against blacks in leasing units in their properties. It’s horrific as a black person to see so many people support him and who have actually voted him to the office of the presidency! Because they do not care about any of that. As long as he does what they want for them and improve their lives, our history involving trump and his beliefs and actions today mean nothing. Their attitude is “get over it”. Stop playing the race card. Stop playing the victim. And conservatives wonder why we can’t stomach supporting them.

Cure? Trump still thinks they're guilty. There is no cure for certain people.

As a right leaning voter I will watch this and this is a very serious issue that needs to be addressed in our country. My concern that is that efforts to try to address this issue have led to even more divisiveness and have been more counterproductive than productive. This issue is a real catch 22, because the solutions that have been proposed by some individuals have unintentionally pissed off other groups. These other groups are the people that voted for Trump.

I am not unsympathetic to the individuals who were portrayed in this film, and sadly this is still an issue today. Its a much more complicated issue that this film will portray. One other case that should be studied along these lines is the Charlie Stewart case in Boston, where one white man sparked racial tensions just by falsely accusing a black man of a murder that he himself committed.

I don't know what the long term answer is to this problem, but the way its being addressed in congress right now doesn't seem like the answer to me. I am not even convinced that this can be solved politically.

Part of the problem is education on both sides. Minorities need better schools and whites need to understand that not all minorities are criminals. Sentencing guidelines need to be more even. A minority will get a longer sentence for the same crime as a white person. So, either give the white person a long sentence or let minorities off with warning after warning.

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

seb146 wrote:

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

Wah! Wah! Wah!

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

No and no. It is about minorities getting longer sentences than whites. It is about "very fine people" like the one who murdered counter protesters in Charlottesville being given cover by the occupant of the White House and people like you.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

That was wrong. Anytime something like that happens to anyone. But for every incident like that that happens to white people, there are countless incidents like that that happen to black people...on an ongoing basis. This “what-ifsm” dangerously diminishes the problem highlighted by the film. And yes people don’t like trump because he fuels and exasperates that point on view.

seb146 wrote:

No and no. It is about minorities getting longer sentences than whites. It is about "very fine people" like the one who murdered counter protesters in Charlottesville being given cover by the occupant of the White House and people like you.

When did I give them cover? Can you provide the post? Why do you constantly smear me with made up accusations? The forum rules clearly state you need to back up your accusations with sources. Yet you still just accuse me of anything and everything you loathe with absolutely no facts. Please prove your silly post or retract it. It's actions like this that result in false allegations getting legs. The title of one such documentary sums it up perfectly. Fantastic Lies.

jdstJD wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

That was wrong. Anytime something like that happens to anyone. But for every incident like that that happens to white people, there are countless incidents like that that happen to black people...on an ongoing basis. This “what-ifsm” dangerously diminishes the problem highlighted by the film. And yes people don’t like trump because he fuels and exasperates that point on view.

“What-ifsm” should have been “what aboutism”.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

No and no. It is about minorities getting longer sentences than whites. It is about "very fine people" like the one who murdered counter protesters in Charlottesville being given cover by the occupant of the White House and people like you.

When did I give them cover? Can you provide the post? Why do you constantly smear me with made up accusations? The forum rules clearly state you need to back up your accusations with sources. Yet you still just accuse me of anything and everything you loathe with absolutely no facts. Please prove your silly post or retract it. It's actions like this that result in false allegations getting legs. The title of one such documentary sums it up perfectly. Fantastic Lies.

You defend every thing he does. Everything. Beyond that, you confuse my opinion with fact. I refuse to withdraw my opinion. I refuse to retract what I see with my own two eyes. If you don't like me voicing my opinion, maybe it is you who has the problem?

seb146 wrote:

You defend every thing he does. Everything. Beyond that, you confuse my opinion with fact. I refuse to withdraw my opinion. I refuse to retract what I see with my own two eyes. If you don't like me voicing my opinion, maybe it is you who has the problem?

No I don't. I had to vote for him because Hillary was horrible. I support some of his actions but not all. You made a statement that I gave the killer in Charlottesville cover. I did no such thing. Then you backtrack and say it's your opinion? You use identity politics to smear here constantly and you should cease this behavior. You have an unhealthy hatred for the president and you let it control your actions to the point you make baseless claims against users here. Rules are simple, if you are going to make a charge post the source. If not then you really shouldn't lob bomb after bomb. If you are going to rail against false allegations then maybe you can start by not doing it yourself.

seb146 wrote:

Part of the problem is education on both sides. Minorities need better schools and whites need to understand that not all minorities are criminals. Sentencing guidelines need to be more even. A minority will get a longer sentence for the same crime as a white person. So, either give the white person a long sentence or let minorities off with warning after warning.

What you refer to is a concept called implicit bias. I recently was trained in this concept at work, and unfortunately it is something that happens even without us realizing it. One exercise we were given is to form opinions on people based on how they looked, then we later learned what they really did. One that stood out in my mind was a bald guy who had a biker look to him that was wearing an outfit that appeared on the surface to be a prison uniform. The implicit bias in the picture is that he is a dangerous criminal. The guy turned out in fact to be the Lieutenant Governor of PA. This is something not just limited to race obviously, but in a lot of cases race definitely plays a factor.

Now as far as better schools for minorities go, this is a bit tricker of an issue. Part of this problem is systematic. For whatever reason, areas that have a large black population tend to be less affluent than other areas. The less affluent areas have less money to spend on better schools. If you take money from the affluent areas, they complain that their schools are getting shafted. And because these areas have less money, they cant afford to send their kids to more elite schools, or private schools. One solution that has been proposed for this is Vouchers, and while a lot of minorities have benefited tremendously from vouchers, there are special interest groups out there who don't like them very much. Educational issues is a whole different thread though.

I would like to see actual statistics on certain misdemeanors and felonies and see if there are differences in sentencing based on wealth or race. I know it appears that way and I do believe it exists but I like to see hard facts on stuff like this. Don't know if this stuff is actually tracked or not. I agree the sentencing should be similar in most cases. The white swimmer who raped that girl got a complete slap on the wrist, and that is wrong.

All these post...and no viewer to be seen yet...goodness gracious!

jdstJD, I understand you hesitance as there's likely not much new to you, but II think) you did say you were an attorney, that being the case...it's worth it to view in thru those eyes for sake of measuring accuracy in the telling of the story just I spotted situations where I knew it was 'worse' than depicted.

I'd like here D L X's take on it. D L X...you lurking in the shadows?

BN747

apodino wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Part of the problem is education on both sides. Minorities need better schools and whites need to understand that not all minorities are criminals. Sentencing guidelines need to be more even. A minority will get a longer sentence for the same crime as a white person. So, either give the white person a long sentence or let minorities off with warning after warning.

What you refer to is a concept called implicit bias. I recently was trained in this concept at work, and unfortunately it is something that happens even without us realizing it. One exercise we were given is to form opinions on people based on how they looked, then we later learned what they really did. One that stood out in my mind was a bald guy who had a biker look to him that was wearing an outfit that appeared on the surface to be a prison uniform. The implicit bias in the picture is that he is a dangerous criminal. The guy turned out in fact to be the Lieutenant Governor of PA. This is something not just limited to race obviously, but in a lot of cases race definitely plays a factor.

Now as far as better schools for minorities go, this is a bit tricker of an issue. Part of this problem is systematic. For whatever reason, areas that have a large black population tend to be less affluent than other areas. The less affluent areas have less money to spend on better schools. If you take money from the affluent areas, they complain that their schools are getting shafted. And because these areas have less money, they cant afford to send their kids to more elite schools, or private schools. One solution that has been proposed for this is Vouchers, and while a lot of minorities have benefited tremendously from vouchers, there are special interest groups out there who don't like them very much. Educational issues is a whole different thread though.

I would like to see actual statistics on certain misdemeanors and felonies and see if there are differences in sentencing based on wealth or race. I know it appears that way and I do believe it exists but I like to see hard facts on stuff like this. Don't know if this stuff is actually tracked or not. I agree the sentencing should be similar in most cases. The white swimmer who raped that girl got a complete slap on the wrist, and that is wrong.

Here are some links for sentencing based on income and race

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5156/9 ... a16d6d.pdf
https://qz.com/900777/the-us-bail-syste ... -the-rich/
https://prosperitynow.org/blog/new-pipe ... rty-prison
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... in-america
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/po ... 20c8cf65eb

As far as education, I don't see the problem with sharing the wealth if that helps people get out of their bad situation. I heard an interesting interview about vouchers and private schools and how many of the parts are contracted out to private corporations, like janitorial, food, security and so forth. So, this still puts private schools out of reach for many because those private institutions are paying for everything else and not fully paying for education.

BN747 wrote:

All these post...and no viewer to be seen yet...goodness gracious!

jdstJD, I understand you hesitance as there's likely not much new to you, but II think) you did say you were an attorney, that being the case...it's worth it to view in thru those eyes for sake of measuring accuracy in the telling of the story just I spotted situations where I knew it was 'worse' than depicted.

I'd like here D L X's take on it. D L X...you lurking in the shadows?

BN747

Being an attorney is my profession and because I love what I do under most circumstances I enjoy analyzing issues through the lense of the law and how the application of the law to the facts lead to a certain outcome. I am sure that can be done to evaluate what happened in the CP5 case. But my emotions are very raw about this and trumps involvement in it and the fact that the country allowed him to become president that I can’t NOT look at it through the lense of a black person. Right, wrong or crazy, that’s the way I feel about it.

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Sorry to hear things are this bad over in Germany.

aviationaware wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Sorry to hear things are this bad over in Germany.

Was Oregon annexed and I not told? When did the invasion happen? Seems like an awful lot of effort for Germans to go from Europe to the American West Coast. We do have a Canadian company trying to build a gas pipeline and export terminal here that no one wants.

BN747 wrote:

With MAGA ppl doing their upmost to convince ppl that living in the past is where the future lies is a failure from the outset because they have no conviction to anything - except selfishness and greed.
No conviction to country nor Consitution, No conviction to the Rights of any and every disenfranchised segment of the population.

They will place all their chips on a seriously flawed and damaged mind than anyone reasonable - because reason, rationale and logic are not important to them.

Agreed, they have nothing to offer an advancing world, but war, disruption and chaos.

I seriously do not believe a single conservative will watch this program for fear of exposing a truth to them in a manner that leaves them seriously perplexed and some serious self-introspection.

But I hope one proves me wrong and lifts the carpet of America and see what is under it....and shares his thoughts.

Seriously, not a conservative and watch this program and NOT come out a different person - they cannot do it,

The film is very powerful.

BN747

With comments like this, it's obvious you're completely uninterested in anything about conservatives or justice that doesn't confirm to your false narrative about conservatives. While people like Robert Mueller and Kamala Harris, who aren't exactly team MAGA, might be completely ok with putting and keeping innocent people in prison, and perhaps others in similar occupations, most people conservatives and liberals alike are horrified by it regardless of skin color. As far as I am concerned they or anyone else can both rot in hell or the place they have sent or kept innocent people.

"A close examination of Harris’s record shows it’s filled with contradictions. She pushed for programs that helped people find jobs instead of putting them in prison, but also fought to keep people in prison even after they were proved innocent."

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... ice-record

afcjets wrote:

BN747 wrote:

With MAGA ppl doing their upmost to convince ppl that living in the past is where the future lies is a failure from the outset because they have no conviction to anything - except selfishness and greed.
No conviction to country nor Consitution, No conviction to the Rights of any and every disenfranchised segment of the population.

They will place all their chips on a seriously flawed and damaged mind than anyone reasonable - because reason, rationale and logic are not important to them.

Agreed, they have nothing to offer an advancing world, but war, disruption and chaos.

I seriously do not believe a single conservative will watch this program for fear of exposing a truth to them in a manner that leaves them seriously perplexed and some serious self-introspection.

But I hope one proves me wrong and lifts the carpet of America and see what is under it....and shares his thoughts.

Seriously, not a conservative and watch this program and NOT come out a different person - they cannot do it,

The film is very powerful.

BN747

With comments like this, it's obvious you're completely uninterested in anything about conservatives or justice that doesn't confirm to your false narrative about conservatives. While people like Robert Mueller and Kamala Harris, who aren't exactly team MAGA, might be completely ok with putting and keeping innocent people in prison, and perhaps others in similar occupations, most people conservatives and liberals alike are horrified by it regardless of skin color. As far as I am concerned they or anyone else can both rot in hell or the place they have sent or kept innocent people.

"A close examination of Harris’s record shows it’s filled with contradictions. She pushed for programs that helped people find jobs instead of putting them in prison, but also fought to keep people in prison even after they were proved innocent."

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... ice-record

Which "innocent people" did Robert Mueller put in prison? And could it be that Harris held people in prison because of their possible connection to another crime? Still has zero to do with the original topic or how the occupant of the White House insists the Central Park Five are guilty, even though there is overwhelming evidence they are innocent.

AFC, I know your post is a wordy way of saying "both sides do it" so you can excuse Republicans and conservatives who jail minorities for much longer periods. At least Democrats and progressives acknowledge there is a problem with the justice system.

No it isn't, you are the only one constantly saying that. It has everything to do with the original topic, the TA specifically mentioned this is a problem only with conservatives and especially team MAGA. I haven't watched the documentary which is no doubt a hit job attempt at Trump 2020. I will send links on Mueller when I have more time.

afcjets wrote:

No it isn't, you are the only one constantly saying that. It has everything to do with the original topic, the TA specifically mentioned this is a problem only with conservatives and especially team MAGA. I haven't watched the documentary which is no doubt a hit job attempt at Trump 2020. I will send links on Mueller when I have more time.

A 'hit job' that started in 1989?

Keep Mueller out of this...it's about humanity, injustice which you've expressed no interest. Noted.

BN747

afcjets wrote:

No it isn't, you are the only one constantly saying that. It has everything to do with the original topic, the TA specifically mentioned this is a problem only with conservatives and especially team MAGA. I haven't watched the documentary which is no doubt a hit job attempt at Trump 2020. I will send links on Mueller when I have more time.

The vast majority of MAGA supporters are white evangelicals. They will twist themselves into knots to say he is a savior and the least corrupt and fair and open minded. Every time anything is show to the opposite, all we hear is "both sides do it" or "but Hillary" or "but Obama" or "but 'liberals'" or some such nonsense that does not defend him at all but deflects.

I also believe that if this were a "hit piece" it would have come closer to the election and would be far worse. Which will come in time.....

seb146 wrote:

The vast majority of MAGA supporters are white evangelicals.

Fact check:
19.8 million Americans qualify as "white evangelicals" by demographic standards. President Trump received 63 million votes in 2016. In what world is just over 31% (pretending they ALL went out to vote for him, which didn't happen) a 'vast majority'?

BN747 wrote:

it's about humanity, injustice which you've expressed no interest. Noted.

afcjets wrote:

While people like Robert Mueller and Kamala Harris, who aren't exactly team MAGA, might be completely ok with putting and keeping innocent people in prison, and perhaps others in similar occupations, most people conservatives and liberals alike are horrified by it regardless of skin color. As far as I am concerned they or anyone else can both rot in hell or the place they have sent or kept innocent people.

You feel prosecutors who knowingly get or keep innocent people in prison should be able to do so without equitable consequences. Noted.

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

While people like Robert Mueller and Kamala Harris, who aren't exactly team MAGA, might be completely ok with putting and keeping innocent people in prison

Which "innocent people" did Robert Mueller put in prison?

"Everyone knew the four men were innocent, but the FBI wanted them to rot in prison, so the scandal would not be revealed. In the 1980s, two U.S. attorneys in Boston wrote letters to the state demanding that the innocent men not be released, but Mueller, an interim U.S. attorney in 1986-87, did not write one. ..
After 35 years in the can, two of the four innocent men are dead, the other two have finally been freed. The four men or their estates are suing the feds for wrongful imprisonment. It is not a frivolous lawsuit – they will eventually win a judgment of $102 million...
The plaintiffs – the victims – are trying to get the necessary information from the crooked FBI now run by Mueller about how they were framed. But Mueller absolutely stonewalls the release of the information.

Here’s a show-cause order I discovered last year from U.S. District Judge Nancy Gertner, who presided over the civil case. The FBI was refusing to turn over the exonerating evidence to either the plaintiffs or the Justice Department, which was defending the FBI after its frame up.

Mueller’s stonewalling, Gertner wrote, was a “serious problem.”

“This is a case about, inter alia, informant abuse, about the failure to disclose exculpatory evidence bearing on the innocence of the four plaintiffs, about FBI agents allegedly ‘hiding the ball,’ not disclosing critical information that would have exonerated the plaintiffs, and not doing so, for 40 years.”

Think about that again – for 40 years, ever since the night of the murder, the FBI had known that these four guys were innocent, and yet they never stepped up to identify the real killers, because they were FBI rats. And Mueller’s FBI was prolonging the cover-up, the judge wrote.

“Given those accusations,” she wrote, “the position the FBI is taking is chilling … This Court is not remotely satisfied.”

Six days after Mueller was threatened with contempt, the feds filed this: “This matter has been brought to the personal attention of the Director of the FBI… (the innocent men and the DOJ) have been provided with unredacted copies of the FBI documents.”

And all it took to bring Mueller around to doing the right thing was the threat of a contempt citation by an ultra-liberal federal judge who went to Yale Law School with the Clintons.

Of course, that wasn’t the first time Mueller’s FBI tried to broom the scandal of the four framed men. In 2002, Mueller directed the G-men to oppose state pardons for the four men because the FBI’s own evidence that exonerated them was merely “fodder for cross-examination.”

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/01/30 ... -frame-up/

aviationaware wrote:

seb146 wrote:

The vast majority of MAGA supporters are white evangelicals.

Fact check:
19.8 million Americans qualify as "white evangelicals" by demographic standards. President Trump received 63 million votes in 2016. In what world is just over 31% (pretending they ALL went out to vote for him, which didn't happen) a 'vast majority'?

Go to his rallies. One does not see a well represented cross section of America but, rather, mostly all white evangelicals. Go look at interviews with people on the street in MAGA gear and they are white evangelicals. There are some not either or both but, if you look at today, right this second, not 2016, his supporters are mainly white evangelicals. That was my point.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

So you're aware of the problem, but only as it applies to white boys. Got it.

jdstJD wrote:

I’ve not allowed myself to watch this program because I know it is going to infuriate me and I just can’t handle any more of the frustration I endure every day of watching Donald Trump sit in the Oval Office and no one willing to do anything to stop the destruction he is causing to the country. When things like trumps fueling the case against the Central Park Five are brought up his supporters say “ok, and?”; when he pardoned Joe Arpio his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he said “good people on both sides” his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he lied and said he wasn’t aware of the things Steve King had said about white supremacy his supporters said “ok, and?”...the list goes on and on. It is really frustrating that all of these things that cut deeply as a black person that people who support him say don’t matter to them because he is keeping his promises or because he is being tough on immigration or he’s fixing the economy, it just highlights how they DO NOT care about it. It’s no big deal to them. The man said Barack Obama should prove he was born in this country. He said a Hispanic judge couldn’t give him a fair shot because he’s building a wall. He said blacks had nothing to lose by voting for him rather than saying things that actually addressed issues that mean something. He went to a black church and pretended he gave a damn. Some ignorant advisor told him to just go to a black church and that’s all you need to get black votes. To him there’s no complexities to black people. We’re just people (to some degree, not REAL people) who are black. He said he didn’t want black people working in his casinos. He and his father were sued by the federal government for discriminating against blacks in leasing units in their properties. It’s horrific as a black person to see so many people support him and who have actually voted him to the office of the presidency! Because they do not care about any of that. As long as he does what they want for them and improve their lives, our history involving trump and his beliefs and actions today mean nothing. Their attitude is “get over it”. Stop playing the race card. Stop playing the victim. And conservatives wonder why we can’t stomach supporting them.

Welp. That's all there is to say about that really. And you can largely say something similar for immigrants, Muslims, LGBTQ, veterans, and on and on.

BN747 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

No it isn't, you are the only one constantly saying that. It has everything to do with the original topic, the TA specifically mentioned this is a problem only with conservatives and especially team MAGA. I haven't watched the documentary which is no doubt a hit job attempt at Trump 2020. I will send links on Mueller when I have more time.

A 'hit job' that started in 1989?

Keep Mueller out of this...it's about humanity, injustice which you've expressed no interest. Noted.

BN747

Now why would afcjets, Trump, and Howie Carr want to dredge up dirt on Mueller? Hrmmmm

MaverickM11 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Every single day people are wrongly accused and convicted in this country.

Moderates and progressives need to take back the Senate, the House and the White House. This whole MAGA thing needs to go the way of the north Idaho neonazis. The sooner the better.

I just wish you cared this much when 3 kids from Duke had their lives ruined, This isn't about justice it's about hatred toward the person in the white hose. It's getting real old.

So you're aware of the problem, but only as it applies to white boys. Got it.

jdstJD wrote:

I’ve not allowed myself to watch this program because I know it is going to infuriate me and I just can’t handle any more of the frustration I endure every day of watching Donald Trump sit in the Oval Office and no one willing to do anything to stop the destruction he is causing to the country. When things like trumps fueling the case against the Central Park Five are brought up his supporters say “ok, and?”; when he pardoned Joe Arpio his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he said “good people on both sides” his supporters said “ok, and?”; when he lied and said he wasn’t aware of the things Steve King had said about white supremacy his supporters said “ok, and?”...the list goes on and on. It is really frustrating that all of these things that cut deeply as a black person that people who support him say don’t matter to them because he is keeping his promises or because he is being tough on immigration or he’s fixing the economy, it just highlights how they DO NOT care about it. It’s no big deal to them. The man said Barack Obama should prove he was born in this country. He said a Hispanic judge couldn’t give him a fair shot because he’s building a wall. He said blacks had nothing to lose by voting for him rather than saying things that actually addressed issues that mean something. He went to a black church and pretended he gave a damn. Some ignorant advisor told him to just go to a black church and that’s all you need to get black votes. To him there’s no complexities to black people. We’re just people (to some degree, not REAL people) who are black. He said he didn’t want black people working in his casinos. He and his father were sued by the federal government for discriminating against blacks in leasing units in their properties. It’s horrific as a black person to see so many people support him and who have actually voted him to the office of the presidency! Because they do not care about any of that. As long as he does what they want for them and improve their lives, our history involving trump and his beliefs and actions today mean nothing. Their attitude is “get over it”. Stop playing the race card. Stop playing the victim. And conservatives wonder why we can’t stomach supporting them.

Welp. That's all there is to say about that really. And you can largely say something similar for immigrants, Muslims, LGBTQ, veterans, and on and on.

BN747 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

No it isn't, you are the only one constantly saying that. It has everything to do with the original topic, the TA specifically mentioned this is a problem only with conservatives and especially team MAGA. I haven't watched the documentary which is no doubt a hit job attempt at Trump 2020. I will send links on Mueller when I have more time.

A 'hit job' that started in 1989?

Keep Mueller out of this...it's about humanity, injustice which you've expressed no interest. Noted.

BN747

Now why would afcjets, Trump, and Howie Carr want to dredge up dirt on Mueller? Hrmmmm

Got me there...what was I thinking?

'jdstJD' ..Yep, she left no stone unturned there.

BN747

afcjets wrote:

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

While people like Robert Mueller and Kamala Harris, who aren't exactly team MAGA, might be completely ok with putting and keeping innocent people in prison

Which "innocent people" did Robert Mueller put in prison?

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/01/30 ... -frame-up/

This was never an issue under Reagan or GHWB or Clinton or GWB or Obama or for the first half of the current administration. Nope. Not until now. Not a peep from anyone until (checks byline) January 2019.

I am not saying it did not happen. It is just odd that all those years pass and nothing is said or done and no one talks about it until right just now. Listening to the right's reaction to Christine Ford and Jean Carrol and that is absolutely a relevant statement. Why does it matter now? Why come forward now? Why didn't they do anything then?

seb146 wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

seb146 wrote:

The vast majority of MAGA supporters are white evangelicals.

Fact check:
19.8 million Americans qualify as "white evangelicals" by demographic standards. President Trump received 63 million votes in 2016. In what world is just over 31% (pretending they ALL went out to vote for him, which didn't happen) a 'vast majority'?

Go to his rallies. One does not see a well represented cross section of America but, rather, mostly all white evangelicals. Go look at interviews with people on the street in MAGA gear and they are white evangelicals. There are some not either or both but, if you look at today, right this second, not 2016, his supporters are mainly white evangelicals. That was my point.

Again, in what world is 31% or less a vast majority? Your anecdotal evidence, if it even is that, does not count squat.

[quote="afcjets"][/quote]

Any chance of you holding back on derailing the topic or does 'anything but' continues to be your theme?

It appears 'this is hard to look at' for you, your misdirecting is signaling something else...

BN747

aviationaware wrote:

seb146 wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

Fact check:
19.8 million Americans qualify as "white evangelicals" by demographic standards. President Trump received 63 million votes in 2016. In what world is just over 31% (pretending they ALL went out to vote for him, which didn't happen) a 'vast majority'?

Go to his rallies. One does not see a well represented cross section of America but, rather, mostly all white evangelicals. Go look at interviews with people on the street in MAGA gear and they are white evangelicals. There are some not either or both but, if you look at today, right this second, not 2016, his supporters are mainly white evangelicals. That was my point.

Again, in what world is 31% or less a vast majority? Your anecdotal evidence, if it even is that, does not count squat.

Last time I will say this:

I am talking about the MAGA base right now, not the voters from 2 1/2 years ago.

BN747 wrote:

Any chance of you holding back on derailing the topic or does 'anything but' continues to be your theme?

It appears 'this is hard to look at' for you, your misdirecting is signaling something else...

BN747

I responded precisely to what you the TA posted. You as the TA make it clear you are refering to "team MAGA" in your second post when you say "the Most Blatant Racists" in the title, and I gave two examples of Trump's biggest enemies who are putting or keeping innocent people in prison, and Seb asked for more info on the second example.

seb146 wrote:

This was never an issue under Reagan or GHWB or Clinton or GWB or Obama or for the first half of the current administration. Nope. Not until now. Not a peep from anyone until (checks byline) January 2019.

I am not saying it did not happen. It is just odd that all those years pass and nothing is said or done and no one talks about it until right just now. Listening to the right's reaction to Christine Ford and Jean Carrol and that is absolutely a relevant statement. Why does it matter now? Why come forward now? Why didn't they do anything then?

Really? Most people including myself had not even heard of the guy until he was appointed special counsel and then his name is the top story in the news almost every day for two years and you're wondering why you are just now hearing it for the first time?

I've only known this person for the last 2 years,2years ago,i had no idea who he was.

seb146 wrote:

Last time I will say this:

I am talking about the MAGA base right now, not the voters from 2 1/2 years ago.

Here we go with the identity politics again. Independent voters make up more of the electorate than you think. Just because someone wears a read hat with a slogan or not doesn't make a huge group of people racists. It's this simple fact that you can't understand that lead to Donald Trump not only winning but beating one of the biggest institutions handily and will duplicate this feat against Biden. Running around calling people racists with no facts plays well on MSNBC and CNN but not so good at the ballot box. If we are going to improve anywhere with race relations among civilians or police or anyone for that matter you should abandon this practice.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Last time I will say this:

I am talking about the MAGA base right now, not the voters from 2 1/2 years ago.

Here we go with the identity politics again. Independent voters make up more of the electorate than you think. Just because someone wears a read hat with a slogan or not doesn't make a huge group of people racists. It's this simple fact that you can't understand that lead to Donald Trump not only winning but beating one of the biggest institutions handily and will duplicate this feat against Biden. Running around calling people racists with no facts plays well on MSNBC and CNN but not so good at the ballot box. If we are going to improve anywhere with race relations among civilians or police or anyone for that matter you should abandon this practice.

Calling people racists WITH NO FACTS??? Are you kidding me?? No, we will improve race relations when people, who the MAGA group is vastly made up of, take their blinders off that are keeping them from acknowledging the clear FACTS that prove the racism. Trump says and does things every day that are racist and so so many of his supporters. The problem does lie with his enabling supporters. They continually shave off these FACTS that’s demonstrate the racism from the objectively determined definition of racism so that they can say something isn’t racism. Eventually they will have shaved off so much from the definition of racism that nothing will be considered racism anymore.

The fact the there are so many independents in the country that don’t want to hear about racism anymore and are willing to vote for trump because they feel that he will make them feel more comfortable being cynical and dismissive when it comes to dealing with racial issues proves my earlier point. That sooo many people in this country discount and minimize the racism people are facing because it’s does not affect them. They don’t care about it as much as they’ve said they did all of these years. THAT is what has jolted so many of us into reality of the large number of people in the country who are complicit in these issues that we thought people cared about. I don’t know what needs to be done about racism in America. It’s a hugely complicated issue. But so many people blowing it off and getting resentful about talking about it is just as frustrating as how you all feel about people talking about racism.

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Last time I will say this:

I am talking about the MAGA base right now, not the voters from 2 1/2 years ago.

Here we go with the identity politics again. Independent voters make up more of the electorate than you think. Just because someone wears a read hat with a slogan or not doesn't make a huge group of people racists. It's this simple fact that you can't understand that lead to Donald Trump not only winning but beating one of the biggest institutions handily and will duplicate this feat against Biden. Running around calling people racists with no facts plays well on MSNBC and CNN but not so good at the ballot box. If we are going to improve anywhere with race relations among civilians or police or anyone for that matter you should abandon this practice.

What is it y’all say? Facts don’t care about your feelings? Trump and his supporters are racists. Thems is the facts. They are the nexus of bigotry and stupidity that gets its rocks off on pointless cruelty inflicted on anything that’s not straight white christian male. The red maga hat is just a more fashion forward pointy white robe, and it’s only made clearer every day—like today’s dump of MAGA vetting leaks.

jdstJD wrote:

Calling people racists WITH NO FACTS??? Are you kidding me?? No, we will improve race relations when people, who the MAGA group is vastly made up of, take their blinders off that are keeping them from acknowledging the clear FACTS that prove the racism. Trump says and does things every day that are racist and so so many of his supporters. The problem does lie with his enabling supporters. They continually shave off these FACTS that’s demonstrate the racism from the objectively determined definition of racism so that they can say something isn’t racism. Eventually they will have shaved off so much from the definition of racism that nothing will be considered racism anymore.

Do you mean like the fact that black unemployment is the lowest it's ever been under his Presidency, the fact that he pardoned that black woman from AL who was serving an unfair sentence, the fact that he got prison reform passed which Obama couldn't, or would you rather focus on the fact that the fake media has perpetuated the lie that Trump called white supremacists in Charlottesville very fine people, when he made it clear he was only talking about the people there who only wanted to preserve monuments, and in a follow up question during the same Q&A condemned white supremacists.

"Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/artic ... 39815.html

jdstJD wrote:

Calling people racists WITH NO FACTS???.

How to recognize an extremist? They define words unusually narrow so they stay just outside of that definition...

afcjets wrote:

Do you mean like the fact that black unemployment is the lowest it's ever been under his Presidency,

Is it lower compared to other breeds unemployment compared to before or just lower with the trend... ?

the fact that he got prison reform passed which Obama couldn't

You have to ask Mitch why Obama couldn´t and Pelocy why Trump was allowed to get it.

Well, Mitch is now holding the 9/11 first responders hostage.....

best regards
Thomas

afcjets wrote:

jdstJD wrote:

Calling people racists WITH NO FACTS??? Are you kidding me?? No, we will improve race relations when people, who the MAGA group is vastly made up of, take their blinders off that are keeping them from acknowledging the clear FACTS that prove the racism. Trump says and does things every day that are racist and so so many of his supporters. The problem does lie with his enabling supporters. They continually shave off these FACTS that’s demonstrate the racism from the objectively determined definition of racism so that they can say something isn’t racism. Eventually they will have shaved off so much from the definition of racism that nothing will be considered racism anymore.

Do you mean like the fact that black unemployment is the lowest it's ever been under his Presidency, the fact that he pardoned that black woman from AL who was serving an unfair sentence, the fact that he got prison reform passed which Obama couldn't, or would you rather focus on the fact that the fake media has perpetuated the lie that Trump called white supremacists in Charlottesville very fine people, when he made it clear he was only talking about the people there who only wanted to preserve monuments, and in a follow up question during the same Q&A condemned white supremacists.

"Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/artic ... 39815.html

Oh my Gosh!! You have literally hit all of the talking points that the Faux News Channel quacks hypnotize their viewers with. First of all:

No, black unemployment is not at its lowest point because of anything this idiot has done. It takes annual cycles and models that show changes over time to show increases or decreases regarding things like employment numbers. It was the politics of President Obama that led to the downward trends in unemployment. This is further evidenced by the fact that none of the policies the idiot touted during his farce of a campaign that he claimed would generate higher employment had even been implemented and still haven’t been implemented. He can’t claim success over a damn thing.

Second of all: his pardoning of the lady (not as you call her “that black woman”) had nothing to do with a fondness of black people or regard for the problems that caused the unfair sentence she was serving to begin with. That’s all the idiot is about, showmanship! He does one act to try to show he understand or cares about something but has demonstrated the exact opposite every other day of this life. You all act like blacks don’t know the idiot from watching his behavior over the last 50 years since he began his career in New York. Blacks’ disdain for him didn’t start when he weaseled his way into the White House. You all are the ones who were oblivious to who he really was before he wandered his way into politics, not us. So stop chalking what we are criticizing him about up to our just not wanting to give him credit for the half-ass stuff he is pretending to do.

Third:

This bs on prison reform is a crock of ——. Nothing is being done about the systematic and historic nature of the criminal justice system. There has been one piece of legislation that is aimed at releasing people who have met some criteria set by a bunch of novices who have no idea about the depths and multi faceted nature of the problems. These people reject those in academia and social sciences who have studied the issues and who have provided policy makers with the information need to address the real problems, including reparations, but those policy makers take and reject what they want for political reasons. It’s bs.

Finally, I will say this. The fact that the idiot and the news/entertainers on faux news that he allows to run his presidency think that these few issues are all black people care about and are dealing with in society is glaring proof that they have no regard for the complexities of our lives and experiences and interests. They go by their limited knowledge of what we’re about and what we really care about which is broader than the negative, down trodden, sad, unfortunate issues that you all associate with us. This is why we are more aligned with democrats. With there being more diversity in the party, there are more perspectives that formulate policy initiatives that we can actually engage in. Republicans are so ignorant and blinded by what they THINK they know that the things that do have no real effect on anyone other than themselves and who they relate to...which isn’t us.