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Dieuwer
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America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:05 am

I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:44 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.

They can "feel like they need to", but they never will.

Or rather, they may, but with what leverage against the US to make any of it stick? Vote us out of the U.N. and/or NATO? Please do!!
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:15 am

China is now approaching the size where they can be an economic powerhouse on a US level.

Much of this depends on their plans to control the global routes of trade. They key being their “Belt and Road” Initiative to dominate trade routes in Eurasia and Africa.

If you have a look at a map of the initiative a key part of this is Iran. China is investing in rail and transport routes in Iran, and it is a key route for their freight rail lines between China and Europe.

In addition, if Iran fell to a regime with US influence that means all countries surrounding the Gulf would be in under the US umbrella. Therefore the US government could coerce China to bend to its will by using the leverage of its supply of oil and gas from the Gulf as a result. With Iran being aligned to China at the moment they can’t.

For these reasons I believe China will prevent the US from installing its preferred regime in Iran. Either diplomatically, economically or even to the point China will base some troops in Iran to ward off a US attempt at regime change. As much as the current US Administration likes to brag about “obliterating” Iran there’s no way they’d attack Iran in a large scale if several thousand Chinese troops and a couple of squadrons of fighter jets were based in Iran. Not from a couldn’t defeat them militarily perspective but not risking WW3 with China perspective.
 
tommy1808
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:00 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Therefore the US government could coerce China to bend to its will by using the leverage of its supply of oil and gas from the Gulf as a result. With Iran being aligned to China at the moment they can’t..


yeah.. forget about that: http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-15- ... -to-china/

Iran is a small Oil supplier for China and short of continued occupation of the oil exporting countries jack sh*t is going to happen.

What that kind of "coercing" does is that countries move slowly but steadily out of US$ for their international payments. China, about 80% USD in its trading, wants to go where Europe is (Intra EU US$ payments have all but disappeared, less that 50% of Imports/Exports are billed in USD.

Weaponizing trade and currency tends to dull those weapons rather quickly.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:24 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.

They can "feel like they need to", but they never will.

Or rather, they may, but with what leverage against the US to make any of it stick? Vote us out of the U.N. and/or NATO? Please do!!


Oh, it’s getting started. Japan gave a big FU to the White House be signing a free trade pact with the EU as soon as TPP was cancelled. China, in the midst of deadlock with DC, is now lowering tariffs to allow EU and Latin American products into their domestic market - access US companies have coveted for two decades. And while the US has been distracted with keeping GCC ‘allies’ happy, China has secured exclusive rights to rate earths and future offshore exploration throughout Africa. They play a long game - something DC forgot around the time of the 2nd Reagan administration.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Spar
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:29 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
China is now approaching the size where they can be an economic powerhouse on a US level. Much of this depends on their plans to control the global routes of trade. They key being their “Belt and Road” Initiative to dominate trade routes in Eurasia and Africa.
China doesn't need to "control" global trade routes, although it is to their benefit to shorten some of these routes, and they would like to have an overland path for ME oil (that's part of what Gwadar is about).
sierrakilo44 wrote:
China is investing in rail and transport routes in Iran, and it is a key route for their freight rail lines between China and Europe.
If you know of such an enterprise please inform the rest of us. China is doing a lot of development in Pakistan to create a link between the port of Gwadar and Karakoram and into the Tarim basin, but I know of no Chinese projects to link with the ME via Iran. It is India that is creating a road link through Afghanistan, to the Iranian port at Chabahar. China would want nothing to do with that.

sierrakilo44 wrote:
if Iran fell to a regime with US influence that means all countries surrounding the Gulf would be in under the US umbrella. Therefore the US government could coerce China to bend to its will by using the leverage of its supply of oil and gas from the Gulf as a result. With Iran being aligned to China at the moment they can’t..
I don't know that Iran is very close to China, can you supply a source for that? In any event, there is a world oil glut, there is no chance of the US cutting off their supply if China is willing to ignore the various US oil embargos.

But you're right China would like to see the US fail in this contest with Iran and hopefully fail badly. Yet they will never give Iran any kind of military assistance and will certainly will never place any of her troops in Iran for any reason. However, Russia will provide hardware , technical assistance (with air defense matters etc), and probably intelligence information. Russia will never tolerate US occupation of Iran.
Last edited by Spar on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:36 am

Aaron747 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.

They can "feel like they need to", but they never will.

Or rather, they may, but with what leverage against the US to make any of it stick? Vote us out of the U.N. and/or NATO? Please do!!


Oh, it’s getting started. Japan gave a big FU to the White House be signing a free trade pact with the EU as soon as TPP was cancelled. China, in the midst of deadlock with DC, is now lowering tariffs to allow EU and Latin American products into their domestic market - access US companies have coveted for two decades. And while the US has been distracted with keeping GCC ‘allies’ happy, China has secured exclusive rights to rate earths and future offshore exploration throughout Africa. They play a long game - something DC forgot around the time of the 2nd Reagan administration.


:checkmark:

You can add the Russian and Chinese advisors who arrived in Venezuela to help the regime and ward off the US. Proxy wars have become a thing again and Russia and China aren't shy about participating any more.

The EU, China and Russia are all beginning to get alternative satellite based navigation systems online.

The US abandoning the Iranian nuclear deal has made the EU make a big push for alternative payment, banking and transaction methods that avoid the US.
 
VSMUT
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:46 am

Spar wrote:
If you know of such an enterprise please inform the rest of us. China is doing a lot of development in Pakistan to create a link between the port of Gwadar and Karakoram and into the Tarim basin, but I know of no Chinese projects to link with the ME via Iran. It is India that is creating a road link through Afghanistan, to the Iranian port at Chabahar. China would want nothing to do with that.


The China–Central Asia–West Asia Corridor. Will connect China to western Turkey via Iran. Just one of many parts of the belt and road initiative:

Image
 
Spar
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:00 am

VSMUT wrote:
The China–Central Asia–West Asia Corridor. Will connect China to western Turkey via Iran. Just one of many parts of the belt and road initiative:
Those are just lines on a map. There are things China is actually doing and there are things that China talks about happening. I very much doubt that there has been one shovel of dirt turned over to connect China with Iran. And I doubt that there will be any such work done in our lifetimes. A road from the Tarim desert to Ankara is a road from nowhere to nowhere. Going through Iran to get Saudi oil makes no sense. Let's see how well they make the Gwadar to Tarim connection first; it's interesting that that map doesn't even show that route, and it makes the Bandar Abbas route redundant.

Belt and road contains a lot of hoohum.
China's Belt and Road Is Full Of Holes

Five years since it was announced, China’s massive Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) has yet to materialize on the ground as promised. According to Chinese officials, the BRI includes six economic corridors that will carry goods, people, and data across the Eurasian supercontinent. But a statistical analysis of 173 infrastructure projects finds that Chinese investment is just as likely to go outside those corridors as within them. The BRI appears to be less coordinated than Beijing hopes and some critics fear.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinas-be ... full-holes
There is a similar but different map at the above site.
 
Fars
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 am

Spar wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The China–Central Asia–West Asia Corridor. Will connect China to western Turkey via Iran. Just one of many parts of the belt and road initiative:
Those are just lines on a map. There are things China is actually doing and there are things that China talks about happening. I very much doubt that there has been one shovel of dirt turned over to connect China with Iran. And I doubt that there will be any such work done in our lifetimes. A road from the Tarim desert to Ankara is a road from nowhere to nowhere. Going through Iran to get Saudi oil makes no sense. Let's see how well they make the Gwadar to Tarim connection first; it's interesting that that map doesn't even show that route, and it makes the Bandar Abbas route redundant.

I agree with you.
 
VSMUT
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:04 am

Spar wrote:
Those are just lines on a map.


Somebody's bright today! :duck:


Spar wrote:
There are things China is actually doing and there are things that China talks about happening. I very much doubt that there has been one shovel of dirt turned over to connect China with Iran.


The Belt and Road initiative isn't just about building a single rail line or road from A to B. It is about improving existing infrastructure, providing development aid to the same aim and building new where none exists (or is too bad). It ties in with other national and international infrastructure improvements, including those of India. It is a million small projects, often in parallel, that individually fly right under the radar. Why do you think China has invested in the port of Piraeus and the Greek railways?

It took me about 2 seconds to find a link stating that the first cargo trains started running between Turkey and China last year. It should be noted that for the time being, it goes across the Caspian by sea:
https://www.railfreight.com/beltandroad ... dpr=accept

The Economist has this article about the first trains running on the improved line between Iran and China in 2016:
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-a ... g-the-dots

And then this from April, about Turkey and Iran working to iron out deals to open up the two for transit of cargo by rail:
https://en.mehrnews.com/news/144627/Ira ... -in-Tehran

So you see, work has already been done, in our lifetimes.

Like it or not, freight trains are already rolling into Germany on a daily basis from China. They reached 10.000 trains (or more likely train-loads) between Europe and China in just 5 years, more than 5 a day on average. China knows that Russia currently has the ability to completely block this and wants alternative ways. Unless you want an inefficient sea crossing in the Caspian, you have to go through Iran.
 
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Aesma
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:04 pm

Many will say it all boils down to military power, but Bush W with his unnecessary war proved it wasn't. The result is Trump who is unwilling to go the same route (fortunately).

It's all about the dollar. More and more people are realizing this, including in the US. That's why cryptocurrencies are popular. That's why China and Russia are making deals with no dollar involvement.

At the moment financial markets are in overdrive, making hay is very easy, so the dedollarization is difficult. If Trump continues with the trade war, when the next recession occurs, more and more politicians around the world will seize the opportunity to sever ties with the dollar.

Then US bullying stops, or is curtailed to South America, where I doubt it will go smoothly either.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
Then US bullying stops, or is curtailed to South America, where I doubt it will go smoothly either.


I can see the US in a generation concentrating it’s foreign policy toward Latin America. This will come about due to the influx of migrants from that part of the world, and demographic shifts which make Hispanics a stronger voice in the US.

China will dominate Eurasia and Africa, the EU will negotiate and trade mostly with Asia as well.
 
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Loew
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:12 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.

They can "feel like they need to", but they never will.

Or rather, they may, but with what leverage against the US to make any of it stick? Vote us out of the U.N. and/or NATO? Please do!!


You see, today´s world is much more complicated than that, and America pissing off random countries all around the world "just because we are the greatest nation on Earth" is not a great long time strategy. As for NATO, well Europeans are already working on their own common security and defense policy, which is a direct result of Trump´s administration erratic foreign policy. Now, while you may think what a good idea that is because "we won´t pay for those pesky europeans anymore", think again.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:14 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Spar wrote:
Those are just lines on a map.


Somebody's bright today! :duck:


Transport routes from China to EU are already changing. Before, you either shipped by Air (relatively expensive but fast) or Sea (slow but cheap). Now you can have goods shipped via Train from China to the EU. It takes 2-3 weeks but it's vasty faster than Sea and cost is halfway between the two. I know many companies here in Germany who use this method and it's completely changed the way their supply chains, payments, goods inventory works. You can even track the goods via GPS (in part for security) but also for real time tracking.

China knows very well the West relies on the goods it produces - other countries cannot and will never match labour rates and they are investing heavily in education. They are turning into a highly educated, powerful economy. The only thing they have struggled with is innovation, marketing and creativity (i.e car designs, fashion etc). The West needs to wake up, and fast. Whilst the US is mucking around with Trump, the UK with Brexit countries like China are powering on.
Last edited by Reinhardt on Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Spar
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
It took me about 2 seconds to find a link stating that the first cargo trains started running between Turkey and China last year. It should be noted that for the time being, it goes across the Caspian by sea:
https://www.railfreight.com/beltandroad ... dpr=accept.

I still see more hype than cargo. That link talks about a 20 day transit time. Yes there is, and has been, a rail link between east and west for years but it is a tenuous link that in some long stretches is single track, thus one way, and even then suffers days long shutdowns; at least through Tarim, the trains themselves are limited in size and carry mixed passenger and cargo. There are rugged mountain ranges between China and Europe.

My original offering here was an attempt to correct the false impression being left by sierrakilo44 in post #3 that China and Iran are bound together economically and militarily. There is a reason why trains are ferried across the Caspian Sea instead of routed through Iranian territory. Those two nations are not all that closely bound diplomatically.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:52 pm

For all of the post WWII period US used trade and defense policies to build good will around the world. Not always successful, but perhaps the most powerful bloc the world has ever seen. It depended upon alliances. Trump is p*ssing them away as fast as he can, and his supporters think it marvelous. The US bloc may be a thing of the past. Threatening Germany, Europe, France, Canada, Mexico, England, Turkey, Islam, Pakistan, India and et cetera seems to be the new strategy. What could possibly go wrong?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
tommy1808
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:11 pm

Loew wrote:
As for NATO, well Europeans are already working on their own common security and defense policy, .


We dont duplicate NATO structures yet, but the EU treaties are already a much more binding defense treaty than the North Atlantic one.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
slider
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:53 pm

Neocon influence over US foreign policy has run amok and it's damn high time to stop with rampant interventionism under false pretenses (the "national interest" or "national security" justifications are bunk). Then, in usual fashion, you throw good money after bad (i.e.: Afghanistan) whereby the influence makers say we can't create a vacuum of instability by withdrawing, so the status quo usually holds. To the tune now of 17+ years there.

Trump is wisely avoiding this, at least thus far. He understands that even his cringe-inducing bombast here is understood elsewhere. He can back up the bellicosity if he chooses. But it's time for US foreign policy to start encouraging more regional engagement and less unilateral engagement.

Problems with North Korea? Time to step up, China. South Korea, you're grown up now. Japan. Et al.

Middle East? We'll sit this one out, thankyouverymuch. US is energy independent and can remain that way. It was US interventionism that destabilized the region (again and again). Qaddafi was playing ball, but he was their strongman and kept the region in check. One can make the same argument with Saddam. Sonsabitches, yes, but not our problem no matter their rhetoric. And so goes with Iran. Let the players there police themselves. And start having continental Europe cover its own ass for once.

The United States needs neither power, nor natural resources. This nation has little incentive nor motivation or national interest to be at war anywhere right now. Outside of the military-industrial complex, we need to start sitting back and using influence, not arms, more frequently than we do.
 
mham001
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:00 pm

Spar wrote:
I don't know that Iran is very close to China, can you supply a source for that?


You know, there is a thing called 'search', try it sometime. Or is it all just "trivia"?

. Over the last decade, Chinese companies have invested more than $5 billion in upgrading Iran’s gas refinement and oil infrastructure, and in other developmental projects, including expanding highways, updating Tehran’s metro system, which was originally built with Chinese assistance, and the development of the Mehran Petrochemical Complex. China has also provided funding and technical assistance for projects ranging from railways to hospitals. In 2018, the Chinese state-owned investment arm, CITIC Group, established a $10 billion credit line, and China Development Bank promised $15 billion more. During President Xi Jinping’s visit to Iran in January 2016, President Hassan Rouhani announced that “China and Iran plan to build economic ties worth up to $600 billion.” China has grown to be Iran’s second largest trading partner, after the United Arab Emirates. The volume of trade between the two sides has seen exponential growth: from $1.6 billion in the 1980s to $15 billion in 2007, and some $45 billion in 2014-2015, although in 2018, it was valued at $33.39 billion.

In addition, China has been a major arms provider to the Islamic Republic, especially since 1986. China’s supply of weapons has included HY-2 Silkworm anti-ship missiles, and the country has played an instrumental role in Iran’s ballistic missile program, particularly in the area of the provision of technologies and design. The two sides signed a defense agreement in November 2016, pledging “closer cooperation in military and counterterrorism cooperation.”
https://thediplomat.com/2019/06/us-iran ... iran-ties/
 
mham001
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Re: America The Bully?

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 pm

slider wrote:
Neocon influence over US foreign policy has run amok and it's damn high time to stop with rampant interventionism under false pretenses (the "national interest" or "national security" justifications are bunk). Then, in usual fashion, you throw good money after bad (i.e.: Afghanistan) whereby the influence makers say we can't create a vacuum of instability by withdrawing, so the status quo usually holds. To the tune now of 17+ years there.

Trump is wisely avoiding this, at least thus far. He understands that even his cringe-inducing bombast here is understood elsewhere. He can back up the bellicosity if he chooses. But it's time for US foreign policy to start encouraging more regional engagement and less unilateral engagement.

Problems with North Korea? Time to step up, China. South Korea, you're grown up now. Japan. Et al.

Middle East? We'll sit this one out, thankyouverymuch. US is energy independent and can remain that way. It was US interventionism that destabilized the region (again and again). Qaddafi was playing ball, but he was their strongman and kept the region in check. One can make the same argument with Saddam. Sonsabitches, yes, but not our problem no matter their rhetoric. And so goes with Iran. Let the players there police themselves. And start having continental Europe cover its own ass for once.

The United States needs neither power, nor natural resources. This nation has little incentive nor motivation or national interest to be at war anywhere right now. Outside of the military-industrial complex, we need to start sitting back and using influence, not arms, more frequently than we do.


Hear hear!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:16 am

slider wrote:
Neocon influence over US foreign policy has run amok and it's damn high time to stop with rampant interventionism under false pretenses (the "national interest" or "national security" justifications are bunk). Then, in usual fashion, you throw good money after bad (i.e.: Afghanistan) whereby the influence makers say we can't create a vacuum of instability by withdrawing, so the status quo usually holds. To the tune now of 17+ years there.

Trump is wisely avoiding this, at least thus far. He understands that even his cringe-inducing bombast here is understood elsewhere. He can back up the bellicosity if he chooses. But it's time for US foreign policy to start encouraging more regional engagement and less unilateral engagement.

Problems with North Korea? Time to step up, China. South Korea, you're grown up now. Japan. Et al.

Middle East? We'll sit this one out, thankyouverymuch. US is energy independent and can remain that way. It was US interventionism that destabilized the region (again and again). Qaddafi was playing ball, but he was their strongman and kept the region in check. One can make the same argument with Saddam. Sonsabitches, yes, but not our problem no matter their rhetoric. And so goes with Iran. Let the players there police themselves. And start having continental Europe cover its own ass for once.

The United States needs neither power, nor natural resources. This nation has little incentive nor motivation or national interest to be at war anywhere right now. Outside of the military-industrial complex, we need to start sitting back and using influence, not arms, more frequently than we do.


Bolton and Pompeo don’t care for your worldview much.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
slider
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
Neocon influence over US foreign policy has run amok and it's damn high time to stop with rampant interventionism under false pretenses (the "national interest" or "national security" justifications are bunk). Then, in usual fashion, you throw good money after bad (i.e.: Afghanistan) whereby the influence makers say we can't create a vacuum of instability by withdrawing, so the status quo usually holds. To the tune now of 17+ years there.

Trump is wisely avoiding this, at least thus far. He understands that even his cringe-inducing bombast here is understood elsewhere. He can back up the bellicosity if he chooses. But it's time for US foreign policy to start encouraging more regional engagement and less unilateral engagement.

Problems with North Korea? Time to step up, China. South Korea, you're grown up now. Japan. Et al.

Middle East? We'll sit this one out, thankyouverymuch. US is energy independent and can remain that way. It was US interventionism that destabilized the region (again and again). Qaddafi was playing ball, but he was their strongman and kept the region in check. One can make the same argument with Saddam. Sonsabitches, yes, but not our problem no matter their rhetoric. And so goes with Iran. Let the players there police themselves. And start having continental Europe cover its own ass for once.

The United States needs neither power, nor natural resources. This nation has little incentive nor motivation or national interest to be at war anywhere right now. Outside of the military-industrial complex, we need to start sitting back and using influence, not arms, more frequently than we do.


Bolton and Pompeo don’t care for your worldview much.


True. And I worry they have Trump's ear. So far, his response has been well crafted and executed.

If Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz? Again, we do absolutely nothing. Let the Chinese figure it out--they've got a nice new deep sea navy. Iran is hectoring for war--they need it and crave it. Their economy is struggling. Their ideology, obviously corrupt. Which is why doing nothing is even more of an obvious choice.
 
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DL717
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder, has America become an international bully? Going from policing the world to bullying countries in line in 15 years?
IMO, it started with Bush Jr. and his "You are With Us or Against Us". And now with Trump threatening anyone who does not do as he likes: "My Way or the High Way!".
How long do you think the rest of the world will tolerate this behavior? I can imagine that e.g. China, India, Japan, Russia (or any other you can think of) will eventually feel like they need to start setting limits on what is acceptable. Especially if you have pissed them all off.


Being the worlds babysitter has its drawbacks.
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:15 pm

slider wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
Neocon influence over US foreign policy has run amok and it's damn high time to stop with rampant interventionism under false pretenses (the "national interest" or "national security" justifications are bunk). Then, in usual fashion, you throw good money after bad (i.e.: Afghanistan) whereby the influence makers say we can't create a vacuum of instability by withdrawing, so the status quo usually holds. To the tune now of 17+ years there.

Trump is wisely avoiding this, at least thus far. He understands that even his cringe-inducing bombast here is understood elsewhere. He can back up the bellicosity if he chooses. But it's time for US foreign policy to start encouraging more regional engagement and less unilateral engagement.

Problems with North Korea? Time to step up, China. South Korea, you're grown up now. Japan. Et al.

Middle East? We'll sit this one out, thankyouverymuch. US is energy independent and can remain that way. It was US interventionism that destabilized the region (again and again). Qaddafi was playing ball, but he was their strongman and kept the region in check. One can make the same argument with Saddam. Sonsabitches, yes, but not our problem no matter their rhetoric. And so goes with Iran. Let the players there police themselves. And start having continental Europe cover its own ass for once.

The United States needs neither power, nor natural resources. This nation has little incentive nor motivation or national interest to be at war anywhere right now. Outside of the military-industrial complex, we need to start sitting back and using influence, not arms, more frequently than we do.


Bolton and Pompeo don’t care for your worldview much.


True. And I worry they have Trump's ear. So far, his response has been well crafted and executed.

If Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz? Again, we do absolutely nothing. Let the Chinese figure it out--they've got a nice new deep sea navy. Iran is hectoring for war--they need it and crave it. Their economy is struggling. Their ideology, obviously corrupt. Which is why doing nothing is even more of an obvious choice.


I am actually very encouraged by Trump's more-public-than-usual recent proclamations that Bolton's a little nuts. Because he's more than a little nuts - he's freaking insane. This interview with Tucker Carlson last year kills me every time - at 3:25 he is literally triggered by Carlson's assertion that regime changes in the ME have been disasters. And he goes on to make the absurd and inaccurate claim that Iran is more responsible for Sunni terror than Saudi Arabia(!!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPFc9YN7LIE
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Aesma
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:08 pm

slider wrote:
If Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz? Again, we do absolutely nothing. Let the Chinese figure it out--they've got a nice new deep sea navy. Iran is hectoring for war--they need it and crave it. Their economy is struggling. Their ideology, obviously corrupt. Which is why doing nothing is even more of an obvious choice.


You appear to agree that the US shouldn't play world police then you say this. Iran doesn't want war, Iran wants to be treated like a normal country. The US is imposing sanctions on Iran, that's also playing world police. Most countries in the world want to trade with Iran, yet the US prevents it, what do you call that ?
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mham001
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Re: America The Bully?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
You appear to agree that the US shouldn't play world police then you say this. Iran doesn't want war, Iran wants to be treated like a normal country. The US is imposing sanctions on Iran, that's also playing world police. Most countries in the world want to trade with Iran, yet the US prevents it, what do you call that ?


If they want to be treated like a normal country, they should start acting like one. This has already been hashed out in the other thread but allowing them back into the world community did nothing in regards to their foreign adventures - in fact, they seemed to step it up a notch.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:21 am

mham001 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
You appear to agree that the US shouldn't play world police then you say this. Iran doesn't want war, Iran wants to be treated like a normal country. The US is imposing sanctions on Iran, that's also playing world police. Most countries in the world want to trade with Iran, yet the US prevents it, what do you call that ?


If they want to be treated like a normal country, they should start acting like one. This has already been hashed out in the other thread but allowing them back into the world community did nothing in regards to their foreign adventures - in fact, they seemed to step it up a notch.


Again, you say this as if realpolitik isn’t a thing. They have been pigeonholed into having only USSR/Russia and China (more recently) as friends for 40 years, while other Gulf states receive fountains of wealth from the west while backchanneling funds to fundie terror with no ill effect. How would you feel in their position?

As for the post above, ffs I am agreeing with Pat Buchanan on foreign policy a lot lately.

As for the U.S. charge that Iran is “destabilizing” the Middle East, it was not Iran that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, overthrew the Gadhafi regime in Libya, armed rebels to overthrow Assad in Syria, or aided and abetted the Saudis’ intervention in Yemen’s civil war.

Iran, pushed to the wall, its economy shrinking as inflation and unemployment are rising, is approaching the limits of its tolerance.

And as Iran suffers pain, it is saying, other nations in the Gulf will endure similar pain, as will the USA. At some point, collisions will produce casualties and we will be on the up escalator to war.

Yet, what vital interest of ours does Iran today threaten?
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TTailedTiger
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:40 am

I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:12 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.


Wrong, neocons believe petrodollars and NYC/MIA real estate purchases from GCC princes are highly valuable.
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AeroVega
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.


Do the American people understand why their government is sending so much money to those countries?
 
seb146
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:32 am

slider wrote:
If Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz? Again, we do absolutely nothing. Let the Chinese figure it out--they've got a nice new deep sea navy. Iran is hectoring for war--they need it and crave it. Their economy is struggling. Their ideology, obviously corrupt. Which is why doing nothing is even more of an obvious choice.


Iran never wanted a war. None of this was even a thing until individual number one withdrew from the agreement how many countries signed? All to erase Obama's name from history. Good job. Create a crisis to fix something that never needed fixing so you can have a fan base cheer for you.
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:38 am

AeroVega wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.


Do the American people understand why their government is sending so much money to those countries?


Setting the bar pretty high for the average ‘Murican to understand patronage and realpolitik.
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mham001
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Again, you say this as if realpolitik isn’t a thing. They have been pigeonholed into having only USSR/Russia and China (more recently) as friends for 40 years, while other Gulf states receive fountains of wealth from the west while backchanneling funds to fundie terror with no ill effect. How would you feel in their position?


I had to look up 'realpolitik' to see if public assassinations and bombings of dissidents on foreign soil was included in the definition. It isn't.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.


Wrong, neocons believe petrodollars and NYC/MIA real estate purchases from GCC princes are highly valuable.


Have you looked at London? And add in Russian oligarchs to the mix plus Putin’s hired assassins.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:44 pm

Other good examples are the refugee crises at the border with Mexico and in Europe: thanks to toppling governments or propping up dictatorships that enrich themselves at the (violent) expense of the local peoples, hundreds of thousands of people flee their country to attempt to reach the safer America or Europe.

You Reap What You Sow.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'd love nothing more for the US to severe ties with everyone and go our own way. We have been taken advantage of for far too long. We have sent billions to craphole countries and got nothing in return. Find someone else to leech off of.


Wrong, neocons believe petrodollars and NYC/MIA real estate purchases from GCC princes are highly valuable.


Have you looked at London? And add in Russian oligarchs to the mix plus Putin’s hired assassins.


Noice non sequitur - let me know when there’s a thread about upper class Britain selling themselves out of a future.
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:26 pm

mham001 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Again, you say this as if realpolitik isn’t a thing. They have been pigeonholed into having only USSR/Russia and China (more recently) as friends for 40 years, while other Gulf states receive fountains of wealth from the west while backchanneling funds to fundie terror with no ill effect. How would you feel in their position?


I had to look up 'realpolitik' to see if public assassinations and bombings of dissidents on foreign soil was included in the definition. It isn't.


You didn’t answer how you’d see things in their position - it’s a key element of successful negotiation.

As for playing coy with realpolitik impacts, two can play at that game: please enumerate what kind of position you’re taking on extrajudicial actions - Iran bad but US A-okay? Because the folks in DC have used everything from assassinations to overturning democratic elections to obtain desired results, particularly pre-CIS.

I’ll quote Pat Buchanan again:

As the major Shiite power in a Middle East divided between Sunni and Shiite, Iran backs the Houthi rebels in Yemen’s civil war, Shiite Hezbollah in Lebanon, Alawite Bashar Assad in Syria, and the Shiite militias in Iraq who helped us stop ISIS’s drive to Baghdad.

In his 12 demands, Pompeo virtually insisted that Iran abandon these allies and capitulate to their Sunni adversaries and rivals.

Not going to happen. Yet, if these demands are nonnegotiable, to be backed up by sanctions severe enough to choke Iran’s economy to death, we will be headed for war.

No more than North Korea is Iran going to yield to U.S. demands that it abandon what Iran sees as vital national interests.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: America The Bully?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Other good examples are the refugee crises at the border with Mexico and in Europe: thanks to toppling governments or propping up dictatorships that enrich themselves at the (violent) expense of the local peoples, hundreds of thousands of people flee their country to attempt to reach the safer America or Europe.

You Reap What You Sow.


A great song about that cycle and all the turmoil it brings.

https://youtu.be/b-LslN9bPRo
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: America The Bully?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:53 pm

We did so well in Korea, oh yeah, better in Vietnam, well OK but it will be different in Iraq, but watch us in Iran. It will be easy.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: America The Bully?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:34 pm

The American ambassador to Germany has according the the Washington Post has told Germany it can either trade with the US or trade with Iran. This of course says that only America has sovereignty. It is also an unacceptable degree of bullying. It probably is time for the rest of the world to agree to a pact that trade and other rights be withdrawn from the US on a gradual basis until the American President respects the independence of the international community. Just as the world should have said 'stop' to a certain European 80 years ago.
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Tugger
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Re: America The Bully?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:42 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The American ambassador to Germany has according the the Washington Post has told Germany it can either trade with the US or trade with Iran. This of course says that only America has sovereignty.

Well, the USA has the right to limit who it trades with. All nations have that right. However it does go against the strong history of the USA being an open economy and trading partner. Which has defined it and allowed it to grow at and become the global power it is.

And if they/we make that statement to Germany, it is essentially being said to any country doing business with Iran. Say China perhaps? It complicates things to a degree that is dangerous to the USA and our economy. Sadly it definitely does damage to our global power and future influence. The USA will live for decades with the short sighted foreign policy blunders caused by Trump and his team (not that some of them weren't actually needed, just even those have been poorly, even horribly implemented).

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seb146
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Re: America The Bully?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:53 pm

I don't think the United States in general is a bully. I think it is one faction of the Republican party. Look at the outrage when Obama tried to play nice. Those same people who were outraged are now in control and demanding the world do what the far right Republicans want. And it is going poorly. They keep claiming victory but it is a yuge failure.
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BN747
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Re: America The Bully?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
I don't think the United States in general is a bully. I think it is one faction of the Republican party. Look at the outrage when Obama tried to play nice. Those same people who were outraged are now in control and demanding the world do what the far right Republicans want. And it is going poorly. They keep claiming victory but it is a yuge failure.


The world has 3 major Bullies.

1. Russia - the Worse as they are ruthless in their pursuit and aims with zero 'return' for co-operating victims.

2. US - Pretty bad track record as far as befriending a nation (installing a ruler..usually a ruthless person) then turning on said nation or leader ex. Iran Prez Mossedeq (sic), several Mexican Presidents, some Africa play, Somoza, Marcos, Noriega, Qadaffi, Saddam Hussein, etc,

3. China - Billions of investments in Africa...and a debt that not go unnoticed, aka a chip to be called in later. Shoving it's financial & Military might regional neighbors with disputed territorial claims and periodic threats - status? More likely to increase vs a decrease.

And none of them are going anywhere soon. And each has a list of nation followers.

You guys have heard me repeatedly point out that we are herd animals and NEED someone to 'lead us'.
That being the case...bullying antics are not going anywhere any time soon either.

So, nations not in The Top Three... are forced to decide for themselves whose Shit-Sandwich taste best.


BN747
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anrec80
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Re: America The Bully?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:22 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The American ambassador to Germany has according the the Washington Post has told Germany it can either trade with the US or trade with Iran. This of course says that only America has sovereignty. It is also an unacceptable degree of bullying. It probably is time for the rest of the world to agree to a pact that trade and other rights be withdrawn from the US on a gradual basis until the American President respects the independence of the international community. Just as the world should have said 'stop' to a certain European 80 years ago.


Well - for that, Germany and EU need to restore sovereignty, build truly sovereign economy (as opposed to one that just hangs off American one). Then they can talk like this.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: America The Bully?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:19 pm

They are, they have it, and they will. And what the h*ll is a truly sovereign economy?
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