MaverickM11
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OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:14 am

Remember those wingnuts that took over the bird sanctuary? They're back! And ready to help the GOP that walked out, one of whom sure seemed to allude to violence, "send bachelors and come heavily armed".

"Kate Gillem, a spokeswoman for the Oregon Senate Republicans, responded Friday that Oregon lawmakers aren’t interested in the offers for assistance.

“The Senators are not with any militias,” she said, “and are not accepting their help.”" (edited to add: mmmhmmm *wink*)

"Some following the militia groups’ calls to action raised the warning Oregon Sen. Brian Boquist, R-Dallas, made on Wednesday when news broke that Brown had said she was willing to enlist Oregon State Police in the effort to bring Republican lawmakers back to Salem.

“This is what I told the superintendent,” said Boquist (pictured), referring to OSP Superintendent Travis Hampton. “Send bachelors and come heavily armed. I’m not going to be a political prisoner in the state of Oregon. It’s just that simple.”"

I'm sure it was all a big coincidence.

https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/g66l-2 ... -help.html
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:11 am

What's the difference between Oregon GOP seeking out "militia" and Oregon Governor/Democrats sending a "militia" out to kidnap them? They're only doing it for their own safety.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
seb146
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:34 am

Super80Fan wrote:
What's the difference between Oregon GOP seeking out "militia" and Oregon Governor/Democrats sending a "militia" out to kidnap them? They're only doing it for their own safety.


Oregon State Troopers are being dispatched so Senate Republicans can do the job they were elected to do. A group of good ole boys who luv them some gunz are keeping the rest of the Oregon Legislature from doing their job. I still think that, if they leave the state and refuse to do their job, their seats should be vacated.

The irony of all this is right wingers are insisting Democrats are the ones holding up government business. They are not but you can't tell right wingers they are wrong!
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tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:36 am

Super80Fan wrote:
What's the difference between Oregon GOP seeking out "militia" and Oregon Governor/Democrats sending a "militia" out to kidnap them?


What "militia" is after them?

They're only doing it for their own safety.


Bullshit, they are disappearing to avoid doing the job they got elected and get paid for. Their "safety" is in no way threatened.

Best regards
Thomas
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Super80Fan
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:03 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
What's the difference between Oregon GOP seeking out "militia" and Oregon Governor/Democrats sending a "militia" out to kidnap them?


What "militia" is after them?

They're only doing it for their own safety.


Bullshit, they are disappearing to avoid doing the job they got elected and get paid for. Their "safety" is in no way threatened.

Best regards
Thomas


The Blue Line Gang AKA Oregon State Police. They just like every other police force in this country are a treasonous dangerous gang.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:13 am

Super80Fan wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
What's the difference between Oregon GOP seeking out "militia" and Oregon Governor/Democrats sending a "militia" out to kidnap them?


What "militia" is after them?

They're only doing it for their own safety.


Bullshit, they are disappearing to avoid doing the job they got elected and get paid for. Their "safety" is in no way threatened.

Best regards
Thomas


The Blue Line Gang AKA Oregon State Police.


So no militia whatsoever is after them.

Best regards
Thomas
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Olddog
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:13 am

I am sorry but you are really putting a right wing militia above the regular state police ?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:14 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

What "militia" is after them?



Bullshit, they are disappearing to avoid doing the job they got elected and get paid for. Their "safety" is in no way threatened.

Best regards
Thomas


The Blue Line Gang AKA Oregon State Police.


So no militia whatsoever is after them.

Best regards
Thomas


Yes they are, police are just militia paid for & supported by your local, county, or state government.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:15 am

Olddog wrote:
I am sorry but you are really putting a right wing militia above the regular state police ?


Nope, saying they are equals. Both count as terrorists in my book & a threat to my way of life.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:17 am

Oh an anarchist !!
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:33 am

This is exactly why we have the 2nd amendment. The governor is sending the police after representatives in order to force a vote where as those representatives have left in order to halt the passage of a bill that would harm the folks they represent...but of course the leftists in this forum wouldn’t have an issue with that. They are literally nazi’s re-incarnate. You all advocate for silencing free speech (hate speech), want to restrict lawful citizens from owning firearms and now you advocate for a police state where the governor sends the state police after those that have broken no laws.

Good job OP though on using the wing-nut description...I was almost expecting intelligent thought on this board...who am I kidding, no I wasn’t.
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 am

Super80Fan wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

The Blue Line Gang AKA Oregon State Police.


So no militia whatsoever is after them.

Best regards
Thomas


Yes they are, police are just militia paid for & supported by your local, county, or state government.


No, police enforces the law of the land and has absolutely nothing to do with a militia.

LittleSprocket wrote:
This is exactly why we have the 2nd amendment. The governor is sending the police after representatives in order to force a vote where as those representatives have left in order to halt the passage of a bill that would harm the folks they represent...


In short: they mix up being representatives with being dictators that can force a minority opinion on the people that decided, by voting, that they shouldn't have that power.

If the 2nd amendment is for anything in this context, it is for hunting them down, as they are wannabe tyrants.

Best regards
Thomas
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MaverickM11
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:54 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
They are literally nazi’s re-incarnate.

You seem sane. Let me guess--you crapped your pants in rage over AOC mentioning concentration camps.... :roll:

LittleSprocket wrote:
Good job OP though on using the wing-nut description...I was almost expecting intelligent thought on this board...who am I kidding, no I wasn’t.

You sure set the bar high there by calling people nazis who are trying to do something as horrible and violent as *checks notes* ...vote on a bill.

Olddog wrote:
Oh an anarchist !!

Anarchist/lunatic tomato/tomahto

tommy1808 wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
This is exactly why we have the 2nd amendment. The governor is sending the police after representatives in order to force a vote where as those representatives have left in order to halt the passage of a bill that would harm the folks they represent...


In short: they mix up being representatives with being dictators that can force a minority opinion on the people that decided, by voting, that they shouldn't have that power.

If the 2nd amendment is for anything in this context, it is for hunting them down, as they are wannabe tyrants.

Best regards
Thomas

:checkmark: :checkmark: Walking out is not uncommon; not-so-subtly winking at a right wing militia is newer, and a sign of things to come with respect to republicans
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:07 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
You sure set the bar high there by calling people nazis who are trying to do something as horrible and violent as *checks notes* ...vote on a bill.


Keeping people from casting votes kinda is the Republicans party national plattform isn't it?

Either keep people deliberately stupid or make sure they dont get a vote is the only way for them to have any power and they know it.

Best regards
Thomas
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bgm
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:22 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
This is exactly why we have the 2nd amendment. The governor is sending the police after representatives in order to force a vote where as those representatives have left in order to halt the passage of a bill that would harm the folks they represent...but of course the leftists in this forum wouldn’t have an issue with that. They are literally nazi’s re-incarnate. You all advocate for silencing free speech (hate speech), want to restrict lawful citizens from owning firearms and now you advocate for a police state where the governor sends the state police after those that have broken no laws.

Good job OP though on using the wing-nut description...I was almost expecting intelligent thought on this board...who am I kidding, no I wasn’t.


Yet I bet you're of the same camp that bleats out 'GET OVER IT' when people talk about Trump's election win. You're all about 'law and order' until it's something you disagree with. Am I right? :sarcastic:

The Dems have a majority in the Oregon senate, so I'll quote your words right back at you: 'GET OVER IT'. These GOP senators are breaking the law. They are not doing the job they were elected to do, and rightfully should be tracked down by the police.

Here's a novel idea: how about getting more GOP senators elected in the next election. Ya know, the legal way? Just a thought.

The hypocrisy of the GOP never ceases to amaze me. Ugh. :banghead:
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tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:53 pm

bgm wrote:
and rightfully should be tracked down by the police.


Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

Best regards
Thomas
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Tugger
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:11 pm

This has happened before. The situation is due the Dems in the legislature forcing/wanting to force the Republicans to participate in the voting process that will put something in place the Republicans do not support. Should the militia's be making threats? NO of course not. But I don't agree with forcing participation. Just wait them out. If an idea is a good one, it will wait and be able to be voted the next time.

The Republicans in Texas did a similar thing a decade ago and forcibly brought absent Dems back to force them to be in session and allow a vote that allowed a new gerrymandered redistricting plan to be put into place. But eleven left to other states to avoid this. The legislation still passed though, at a later time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Eleven

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg


Are they striking for raises? More vacation? Better or safer working conditions or such? No? So I am totally fine with strike breaking then, firing those that strike after warning without further notice, and have them reimburse the damage they have done. In this case however much the search costs the state troopers.

Best regards
Thomas
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Tugger
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg


Are they striking for raises? More vacation? Better or safer working conditions or such? No? So I am totally fine with strike breaking then, firing those that strike after warning without further notice, and have them reimburse the damage they have done. In this case however much the search costs the state troopers.

Best regards
Thomas

They are "striking" for the equivalent of better or safer working conditions or such. I would not have thought you support such strikebreaking but you do as you have stated. Force over just working with or waiting out.

And of course I said "effectively similar to" not identical. I guess I could have said "roughly similar to". The idea of a free legislature is that they are free to vote and do and they deem best for their constituents. I wish the Texas 11 had been more successful. And I think that if one believe this is the only way to stop something then that is what you do.

Again, if it is a good idea, good sound legislation it will inevitably be approved at another time. And the state police expenses would not need to be reimbursed if the Dems in the legislature simply waited it out. Voila! No additional state expense. The expense would wholly be the hold outs.

Tugg
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tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
Force over just working with or waiting out.


Mmm.. the sovereign in the state has spoken, the overwhelming majority is there.... what is there to work out?

And the state police expenses would not need to be reimbursed if the Dems in the legislature simply waited it out. Voila! No additional state expense.


I am pretty sure one could work out how much extra cost the state will incure for every day the law passes later. Have them pay those damages... probably more than what the state troopers cost.

Best regards
Thomas
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Dogman
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg


Not striking, more like obstructing and sabotaging.
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Force over just working with or waiting out.


Mmm.. the sovereign in the state has spoken, the overwhelming majority is there.... what is there to work out?

Would this work in your household, your home? Your wife (if you are/were married) would accept a "majority" even if she in no way supported a decision? "The sovereign state" is an extension on this concept. We enter into the relationship with the implicit understnding that each side will be at least somewhat understanding of the others absolute right to say "no" or not participate in something they fell they absolutely cannot support.

Legal rules may be different but the respect needs to be there for any relationship to function effectively. The willingness to have a conversation rather than a confrontation. If the Republican's are absolutely in the wrong, speak to that, explain why to the public, destroy the effectiveness of "the strike". But no real need to force people to return in the manner currently being pursued.

This is one of the things that is wrong in the USA with our current leadership and our current legislative discourse. We like force! We can force you! And apparently you like and fully approve of force being used even in otherwise peaceful situations.

I say find a better solution. Force not needed.

Tugg
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:39 pm

Dogman wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg


Not striking, more like obstructing and sabotaging.

I think that is what most companies say too.

The militia threat is absolutely wrong. No support there. If you want to use force then use it there.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Olddog
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:41 pm

You have strange laws. In France and a lot of countries, vote is done with the people in the parliament. If you don't show at a regular session, too bad for you.
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:42 pm

Olddog wrote:
You have strange laws. In France and a lot of countries, vote is done with the people in the parliament. If you don't show at a regular session, too bad for you.

Is a Quorum not required?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
MaverickM11
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg

You're gonna have to ice your elbow after that reach. I thought #BlueLivesMatter, and threatening police was bad? Or do republicans not believe that anymore?
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:56 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tax payer funded police tracking down senators enjoying their tax funded entitlement, it's not pay if you don't work, refusing to their job....

What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg

You're gonna have to ice your elbow after that reach. I thought #BlueLivesMatter, and threatening police was bad? Or do republicans not believe that anymore?

As I said the militia threat is absolutely unacceptable. If you are going to implement force, implement it against the ones making the threats.

I will be clear:
I do not support the use of force, the state police etc. to force people to be present if they are using peaceful tools to protest a vote. The same could be said for sit-in's that have been done. Peaceful actions of protest really need very careful and well communicated response. I prefer more peace and less force.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Olddog
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:59 pm

Tugger wrote:
Olddog wrote:
You have strange laws. In France and a lot of countries, vote is done with the people in the parliament. If you don't show at a regular session, too bad for you.

Is a Quorum not required?

Tugg


No. When the Assemblée Nationale is in session, it means that all MP are officially convoked for that period. Same for the Senate. there are only a few special laws that need a quorum.

Your quorum system leads to easy obstruction against the will of the voters.
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:00 pm

Olddog wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Olddog wrote:
You have strange laws. In France and a lot of countries, vote is done with the people in the parliament. If you don't show at a regular session, too bad for you.

Is a Quorum not required?

Tugg


No. When the Assemblée Nationale is in session, it means that all MP are officially convoked for that period. Same for the Senate. there are only a few special laws that need a quorum.

Your quorum system leads to easy obstruction against the will of the voters.

Interesting. I did not know. I think I like the idea though. Keeps things simple.

I am curious though, what "special laws" require a quorum?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
bhill
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:03 pm

Time for States such as this to amend their constitutions to enter a NO vote for no shows...
Carpe Pices
 
tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Force over just working with or waiting out.


Mmm.. the sovereign in the state has spoken, the overwhelming majority is there.... what is there to work out?

Would this work in your household, your home? Your wife (if you are/were married) would accept a "majority" even if she in no way supported a decision? "The sovereign state" is an extension on this concept. We enter into the relationship with the implicit understnding that each side will be at least somewhat understanding of the others absolute right to say "no" or not participate in something they fell they absolutely cannot support.


Your analogy is wrong. The sovereign are the parents, the senators are their kids. While the wife can understand a little bit of the one Kids side, that one is rolling on the floor screaming "no, no, no", she will very likely enforce going to that icecream store the other two kids want to go to, that the dad clearly prefers hands down no contest, and that she thinks is a little better. Or it stays at home while the other still have icecream (=vote).

What are the chances they dont go to that ice scream store, unless that one kids is the biggest bully ever and an embarrassment to be seen with?

Best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bhill
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:09 pm

Police are NOT militia, they are a CIVILIAN force not under the UCMJ. "The term "militia" derives from Old English milite meaning soldiers (plural), militisc meaning military and also classical Latin milit-, miles meaning soldier." Any other group claiming such is a mob with guns...
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Dogman
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Olddog wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Olddog wrote:
You have strange laws. In France and a lot of countries, vote is done with the people in the parliament. If you don't show at a regular session, too bad for you.

Is a Quorum not required?

Tugg


No. When the Assemblée Nationale is in session, it means that all MP are officially convoked for that period. Same for the Senate. there are only a few special laws that need a quorum.

Your quorum system leads to easy obstruction against the will of the voters.


American democratic institutions are relatively unprotected from abuse, and rely too much on the participants following unwritten rules. A good example of that would be a state congress stripping all the power from the upcoming governor from a different party, as Republicans done after 2018 elections in Wisconsin and some other states. In a country with a strong democratic institutions something like that would require a change to the Constitution.
 
Olddog
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:22 pm

Tugger wrote:
Interesting. I did not know. I think I like the idea though. Keeps things simple.

I am curious though, what "special laws" require a quorum?

Tugg


All the laws that could change our constitution mainly.
 
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Mmm.. the sovereign in the state has spoken, the overwhelming majority is there.... what is there to work out?

Would this work in your household, your home? Your wife (if you are/were married) would accept a "majority" even if she in no way supported a decision? "The sovereign state" is an extension on this concept. We enter into the relationship with the implicit understnding that each side will be at least somewhat understanding of the others absolute right to say "no" or not participate in something they fell they absolutely cannot support.


Your analogy is wrong. The sovereign are the parents, the senators are their kids. While the wife can understand a little bit of the one Kids side, that one is rolling on the floor screaming "no, no, no", she will very likely enforce going to that icecream store the other two kids want to go to, that the dad clearly prefers hands down no contest, and that she thinks is a little better. Or it stays at home while the other still have icecream (=vote).

What are the chances they dont go to that ice scream store, unless that one kids is the biggest bully ever and an embarrassment to be seen with?

Best regards
Thomas

And your analogy is also wrong. You are using non-adults, children do not have the same legislative or legal right for resourse as adults and are automatically under the authority and control of their parents unless something occurs to affect that relationship. Adult legislators (and the wife in the example) are not in any way under such a relationship. Legal consenting adults do always retain the right to association. Or not. They may be legally bound to do something but again I can support peaceful actions.

Also I am not in any way saying the state police are military or wrong to follow orders. I am saying there are other better ways to address this and the Democratic legislators don't need to engage force to address it.

But that is me.

Tugg
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tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
And your analogy is also wrong. You are using non-adults, children do not have the same legislative or legal right for resourse as adults


Since the adults represent the sovereign and senators are exactly not that, they don't count as adults in the analogy. You can not mix analogy and real world at will, you have to stay within it.

Best regards
Thomas
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seb146
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
They're only doing it for their own safety.


Bullshit, they are disappearing to avoid doing the job they got elected and get paid for. Their "safety" is in no way threatened.

Best regards
Thomas


Tommy is correct. The domestic terrorists are at the state house in Salem. They pose a threat to staff and elected officials who were trying to do their job and not those who decided to vacate their posts and not do any work.

They are not a militia. Go look up the Constitutional definition of militia. These are right wingers who demand everyone do everything their way at gun point. That is not a militia. That is terrorism.
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seb146
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:05 pm

Olddog wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Interesting. I did not know. I think I like the idea though. Keeps things simple.

I am curious though, what "special laws" require a quorum?

Tugg


All the laws that could change our constitution mainly.


They can also be referred to the people of Oregon for a vote, if I am not mistaken.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And your analogy is also wrong. You are using non-adults, children do not have the same legislative or legal right for resourse as adults


Since the adults represent the sovereign and senators are exactly not that, they don't count as adults in the analogy. You can not mix analogy and real world at will, you have to stay within it.

Best regards
Thomas

OooK, but again, legal rights are what they are, and the senators still have full rights (which in fact are granted by the sovereign state). I guess you could have a situation whereby parents have given full right and the right to recourse (courts etc.) to their children. But even then those "rights" can be revoked instantly by the parents. The state cannot do that. (Well hopefully, we know of plenty of countries where that does occur).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
seb146
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:09 pm

Tugger wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What the legislators are doing is effectively similar to striking. Do you support strike breaking?

Tugg

You're gonna have to ice your elbow after that reach. I thought #BlueLivesMatter, and threatening police was bad? Or do republicans not believe that anymore?

As I said the militia threat is absolutely unacceptable. If you are going to implement force, implement it against the ones making the threats.

I will be clear:
I do not support the use of force, the state police etc. to force people to be present if they are using peaceful tools to protest a vote. The same could be said for sit-in's that have been done. Peaceful actions of protest really need very careful and well communicated response. I prefer more peace and less force.

Tugg


These Senators job is not to run when things get tough or go a way they do not like. Their job is to represent the people of their districts. Jobs they were sworn to uphold under the Oregon Constitution. As public servants who refuse to do their job, why not send public servants to get them to do their job? That is a huge, huge difference from people just randomly showing up, insisting they are a militia and carrying around weapons.

The notion of "guns get us what we want" must be stopped.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
The notion of "guns get us what we want" must be stopped.

Can't disagree.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
The Blue Line Gang AKA Oregon State Police. They just like every other police force in this country are a treasonous dangerous gang.

I see that blue lives matter only on certain occasions.

If only these folks (Republican Senators) followed instructions, maybe they wouldn't have cops behind them.

Or how about: "We won. Get over it and stop obstructing!"? Worked for Congressional Republicans; should work for Oregon Democrats.
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Aesma
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:17 pm

Tugger wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Is a Quorum not required?

Tugg


No. When the Assemblée Nationale is in session, it means that all MP are officially convoked for that period. Same for the Senate. there are only a few special laws that need a quorum.

Your quorum system leads to easy obstruction against the will of the voters.

Interesting. I did not know. I think I like the idea though. Keeps things simple.

I am curious though, what "special laws" require a quorum?

Tugg


I think the idea of a quorum made sense in the past, if the idea is that people might be delayed by transportation issues, coming from far away. Not having a quorum might even have led to abuse the other way, with laws being decided in the back of people that couldn't attend. But nowadays, it's another story.

As a matter of fact I just looked it up, and there is a quorum in the rules of the French national assembly. It's not a default provision, a third of present members must ask for it. So, the opposition boycotting a vote would not trigger a quorum not met. If a quorum is called for, the vote can be done again during the following session, without a quorum, giving time for members to come. The idea is that these members will often be in their offices not far away, as that next session can happen as soon as 15 minutes later !

You see the opposition playing a few tricks will rules like this, but it only leads to very short term victories. The trick is not to call for a quorum, but to flood the chambers with opposition members, outnumbering the majority. Usually even if votes are made with very few members, there is a tacit rule to keep the proportions similar to the full chamber. So if the opposition wants to make a point, they come in force, at which point the majority will stop the proceedings until they can be the majority again.

In France what can really prevent a law from passing (or being enacted) is people taking to the streets. And that happens fairly often.

The special laws don't really require a quorum, but rather a super majority. The quorum will be a given, as usually there are only a couple of members not present, due to illness or similar. To change the constitution, congress (national assembly members + senators in congress at the Palace of Versailles) must vote in favor with a 2/3 majority. It turns out it's quite easier than the US system to amend the constitution, and happens regularly. The other way being a national referendum.
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alfa164
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
The situation is due the Dems in the legislature forcing/wanting to force the Republicans to participate in the voting process that will put something in place the Republicans do not support.


So... are you suggesting that anytime a political group is going to lose a vote in the (legitimately-elected, by the way) legislature, they should abdicate their seats - and their responsibility - there and disappear, so that a vote cannot be taken?

That is not called" government"; the term for that is called "anarchy"...

:roll:
.

seb146 wrote:
These Senators job is not to run when things get tough or go a way they do not like. Their job is to represent the people of their districts. Jobs they were sworn to uphold under the Oregon Constitution. As public servants who refuse to do their job, why not send public servants to get them to do their job? That is a huge, huge difference from people just randomly showing up, insisting they are a militia and carrying around weapons. The notion of "guns get us what we want" must be stopped.



:checkmark: If a citizen does not show up when subpoenaed for jury duty, the local law enforcement may be sent to locate him or her and bring him or her to the Courthouse. It is not unreasonable to do the same to find those officials who abdicate their responsibility to participate in the legislature.
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:43 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The situation is due the Dems in the legislature forcing/wanting to force the Republicans to participate in the voting process that will put something in place the Republicans do not support.


So... are you suggesting that anytime a political group is going to lose a vote in the (legitimately-elected, by the way) legislature, they should abdicate their seats - and their responsibility - there and disappear, so that a vote cannot be taken?

That is not called" government"; the term for that is called "anarchy"...

:roll:

Basically yes. If the legislature wants to end this option then simply do as bhill suggests above and make it so a missed vote is to be entered as a "no" vote. End of problem.

And this has been done before and by Democrats as well who bemoaned the ability to force people show up for what they feel is not fair, correct or proper. (I provided the best example I know of, the "Texas 11" who resisted participating in a vote. And democrats nationally vociferously supported them.

What about sit in's and filibusters and other various "anarchic" peaceful methods used throughout history to prevent votes or stop legislation (often by the minority power)? Should those options be disallowed too?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
tommy1808
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
What about sit in's and filibusters and other various "anarchic" peaceful methods used throughout history to prevent votes or stop legislation (often by the minority power)? Should those options be disallowed too?


Fun fact, both are not allowed here in Germany. If you can't convince, you lose. End of Story.
Also: 8.4% are not present on average, for the most part not being there counts as not voting, not as "no". If you want to say "no" you have to show up.

Best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alfa164
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
What about sit in's and filibusters and other various "anarchic" peaceful methods used throughout history to prevent votes or stop legislation (often by the minority power)? Should those options be disallowed too?


Filibusters - and I am sorry, I do not know of any other "anarchic" peaceful methods - have been ensconced in law and made a part of law by the legislative bodies themselves, and are thus accepted as methods to impede or encourage reconsideration of legislation.

Abdicating one's responsibility to legislate within the laws and requirements of the office is a far different matter. Until a State passes legislation authorizing mass-hide-and-seek-games as a legal practice, it remains a far different animal.
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seb146
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Re: OR Statehouse shutdown by right wing militia threat after GOP walks out

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:54 pm

Tugger wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The situation is due the Dems in the legislature forcing/wanting to force the Republicans to participate in the voting process that will put something in place the Republicans do not support.


So... are you suggesting that anytime a political group is going to lose a vote in the (legitimately-elected, by the way) legislature, they should abdicate their seats - and their responsibility - there and disappear, so that a vote cannot be taken?

That is not called" government"; the term for that is called "anarchy"...

:roll:

Basically yes. If the legislature wants to end this option then simply do as bhill suggests above and make it so a missed vote is to be entered as a "no" vote. End of problem.

And this has been done before and by Democrats as well who bemoaned the ability to force people show up for what they feel is not fair, correct or proper. (I provided the best example I know of, the "Texas 11" who resisted participating in a vote. And democrats nationally vociferously supported them.

What about sit in's and filibusters and other various "anarchic" peaceful methods used throughout history to prevent votes or stop legislation (often by the minority power)? Should those options be disallowed too?

Tugg


Filibusters and attaching outrageous riders are allowed and done very often. It is frustrating but part of the legislative process. Why should walking away from your responsibility be acceptable? I hope the state senate changes the rules so that, if this happens again, there will be consequences for those who shirk their responsibilities.
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