aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 am

Raising taxes on the rich sounds like a good way to raise government revenue, right?

Well, turns out that's not quite the way it works. I layered the data from the Federal Reserve (available to anyone for free at https://fred.stlouisfed.org) and it quite clearly shows that despite the marginal tax rate falling precipitously between the 1960s and 1980s, both federal receipts and total government receipts (including state and local) have stayed relatively stable around 17% and 25% of GDP, respectively - the share has even increased as the marginal tax rate came down.

The same is true for the corporate federal tax rate - meaningful reductions have not reduced federal receipts .

Image

This of course illustrates the point that Arthur Laffer was making with his Laffer Curve theory. On that note I'd like to congratulate Arthur Laffer for receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Trump this past Wednesday.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:31 am

Taxes exemptions for the rich works even less so...
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:34 am

aviationaware wrote:
Raising taxes on the rich sounds like a good way to raise government revenue, right?

Well, turns out that's not quite the way it works. I layered the data from the Federal Reserve (available to anyone for free at https://fred.stlouisfed.org) and it quite clearly shows that despite the marginal tax rate falling precipitously between the 1960s and 1980s, both federal receipts and total government receipts (including state and local) have stayed relatively stable around 17% and 25% of GDP, respectively - the share has even increased as the marginal tax rate came down.

The same is true for the corporate federal tax rate - meaningful reductions have not reduced federal receipts .

Image

This of course illustrates the point that Arthur Laffer was making with his Laffer Curve theory. On that note I'd like to congratulate Arthur Laffer for receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Trump this past Wednesday.


Except that most things in statistics involving human systems inevitably start to show a bell curve when cross-referencing actions with outcomes. Cutting taxes on the rich is even worse for revenues.

“significant federal tax changes have reduced revenue by $5.1 trillion, with nearly two-thirds of that flowing to the richest fifth of Americans.” Twenty-two percent of the tax cuts have gone to the top 1 percent. And by 2025—in just seven more years—ITEP estimates that lost revenue will have more than doubled, to $10.6 trillion, with nearly $2 trillion going to the top 1 percent, those with annual incomes over $420,000.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghil ... taxes/amp/

And more data and details on the coming pain here - noteworthy since the federal government will not realistically reduce its footprint at any future time since that is unpalatable to agendas in both major parties.

https://itep.org/federal-tax-cuts-in-th ... ump-years/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:02 pm

Olddog wrote:
Taxes exemptions for the rich works even less so...


Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11516
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:12 pm

When I look at the curve, I see that tax rates have been lowered drastically, with income rising slightly.

Show me the part that proves your point, that hiking taxes wouldn't bring more revenue, because I don't see it.

Also, when are rates too low, according to you ? There is a global race to the bottom happening at the moment, is it a good thing ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7283
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:11 pm

If the chart shows that raising taxes on the rich does not work, then it also shows that cutting taxes doesn't work either. The line we are constantly pushed is that tax cuts pay for themselves, so why is it that through Reagan and Bush 2 cuts (A and B) we don't see a spike in revenue?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9175
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:08 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Of course it does. Or do you think raising taxes on the poor works better?

The real question and issue is did you actually raise taxes on "the rich" or not? In the USA at least we have so many loopholes and tax laws that can apply and become a work around to any rise in the rate. The truth is you don't need to raise taxes so much as close the various tax law allowances. But then yuo will get the special interests involved and everything freezes up.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Taxes exemptions for the rich works even less so...


Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


You did not define the sweet spot though - sweet spot for income-to-tax ratio, or for revenues? As my linked information showed, the cuts since 2001 have been absolutely detrimental to revenues and are only accelerating between now and 2025, regardless of the wild projections from Steve Mnuchin.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:38 pm

...depends on the definition of "rich" and in what form those people are "rich" in.
It seems that the state of New York derives 46% of its budget income from taxing the top 1% earners. Cutting those taxes would obviously be a blow to the budget. But then again raising taxes too high might provoke some of those people to leave. In short, it is a delicate balancing act.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:52 pm

Another neo-con idea being discussed here. But it gave me a reason to read up on Laffer Curve theory. But as others have noted, it would help if you could prove this statement:

aviationaware wrote:
Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


There would be a Nobel price in for you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9175
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:26 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
...depends on the definition of "rich" and in what form those people are "rich" in.
It seems that the state of New York derives 46% of its budget income from taxing the top 1% earners. Cutting those taxes would obviously be a blow to the budget. But then again raising taxes too high might provoke some of those people to leave. In short, it is a delicate balancing act.

What I find interesting is that many want to point to the "(very large)% of its budget income from taxing the top 1% earners" mean a state or the nation is either overly dependent on those people or proof that the wealthy are in fact over taxed. And that is not at all what is indicative of, It s a real demonstration of the problem of income equality in the USA.

High (and even very high) taxes on high income earners are one tool to drive wages across a broader spectrum of the population. Is that income redistribution? Yes in some ways, but no more so that the income redistribution that has been occurring as wealth is concentrated to a smaller portion of the population. Tax policy creates "income redistribution" in both directions.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
apodino
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:39 pm

If you trust the chart, then it doesn't matter if you raise taxes or lower taxes, because tax increases or tax cuts are revenue neutral. That actually makes the argument for lower taxes, because if the revenue stays the same no matter what, why not let people keep more of their money.

It is an interesting chart at a macro level, but I think this needs to be dived into at a much deeper level to see what is really happening.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Another neo-con idea being discussed here. But it gave me a reason to read up on Laffer Curve theory. But as others have noted, it would help if you could prove this statement:

aviationaware wrote:
Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


There would be a Nobel price in for you.


Necons don't get Nobel prizes ;)
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:28 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Another neo-con idea being discussed here. But it gave me a reason to read up on Laffer Curve theory. But as others have noted, it would help if you could prove this statement:

aviationaware wrote:
Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


There would be a Nobel price in for you.


Necons don't get Nobel prizes ;)


If he proves this and gets the "sweet spot" proven, then yes, he gets the Nobel prize, they will even invent the Nobel prize for economics, just for him ;)

BTW some speculate the sweet spot is around 65% - 70% mark.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bhill
Posts: 1626
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:02 pm

Re-run those numbers if ALL income was taxed the same as wages. The very wealthy do not usually make a "wage." Capital gains are taxed differently
Carpe Pices
 
seb146
Posts: 19964
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:36 pm

I am seeing dips going together when tax rates go down, receipts go down and when tax rates go up, receipts go up. Maybe another line that should be overlayed is government spending? The deficit and debt have both gone out of control since trickle down started....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:48 pm

Spending has absolutely nothing to do with revenue.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Another neo-con idea being discussed here. But it gave me a reason to read up on Laffer Curve theory. But as others have noted, it would help if you could prove this statement:



There would be a Nobel price in for you.


Necons don't get Nobel prizes ;)


If he proves this and gets the "sweet spot" proven, then yes, he gets the Nobel prize, they will even invent the Nobel prize for economics, just for him ;)

BTW some speculate the sweet spot is around 65% - 70% mark.

No need to invent! :)

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/lists ... -sciences/
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:24 am

aviationaware wrote:
Raising taxes on the rich sounds like a good way to raise government revenue, right?

Well, turns out that's not quite the way it works. I layered the data from the Federal Reserve (available to anyone for free at https://fred.stlouisfed.org) and it quite clearly shows that despite the marginal tax rate falling precipitously between the 1960s and 1980s, both federal receipts and total government receipts (including state and local) have stayed relatively stable around 17% and 25% of GDP, respectively - the share has even increased as the marginal tax rate came down.

The same is true for the corporate federal tax rate - meaningful reductions have not reduced federal receipts .

Image

This of course illustrates the point that Arthur Laffer was making with his Laffer Curve theory. On that note I'd like to congratulate Arthur Laffer for receiving the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Trump this past Wednesday.


Those pesky billionaires don't know a thing:

Disney and Soros among super-rich urging US government: tax us more


The Guardian
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12075
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:00 am

aviationaware wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Taxes exemptions for the rich works even less so...


Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


So why is infrastructure all over the US aging and falling apart and the national debt higher than it's ever been?
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:05 am

I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:53 am

Olddog wrote:
I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?


I don't know. Nobody prevented him from paying more voluntarily. IRS and nearly every state allow that.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?


I don't know. Nobody prevented him from paying more voluntarily. IRS and nearly every state allow that.


So you have nothing to add to this discussion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:26 am

Kiwirob wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Taxes exemptions for the rich works even less so...


Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


So why is infrastructure all over the US aging and falling apart and the national debt higher than it's ever been?


Because the government has no spending discipline and the social programs, particularly medicare, are bankrupting us faster than we can look because of their inherent flaws. By the way, the "national debt" in the strict sense is actually flat as a percentage of GDP since Trump took over. But that is of course ignoring the black hole of unfunded liabilities in the social programs the government can't really control without making cuts to the programs because they are dictated by demographics. They make the real government debt balloon to 150 trillion dollars.

Olddog wrote:
I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?


Well like others mentioned, nothing keeps him from voluntarily paying more. He doesn't because he knows politicians can't be trusted with money. This Soros/Disney thing is nothing but a well thought out publicity stunt either since they too could give voluntarily but don't. They also know their demand has zero chance of passing and of course this raise of revenue would never be used for the purposes they are proposing because that's not how tax raises work. So it's just to make them look good in front of their leftist youth admirers.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:32 am

aviationaware wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


So why is infrastructure all over the US aging and falling apart and the national debt higher than it's ever been?


Because the government has no spending discipline and the social programs, particularly medicare, are bankrupting us faster than we can look because of their inherent flaws. By the way, the "national debt" in the strict sense is actually flat as a percentage of GDP since Trump took over. But that is of course ignoring the black hole of unfunded liabilities in the social programs the government can't really control without making cuts to the programs because they are dictated by demographics. They make the real government debt balloon to 150 trillion dollars.

Olddog wrote:
I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?


Well like others mentioned, nothing keeps him from voluntarily paying more. He doesn't because he knows politicians can't be trusted with money. This Soros/Disney thing is nothing but a well thought out publicity stunt either since they too could give voluntarily but don't. They also know their demand has zero chance of passing and of course this raise of revenue would never be used for the purposes they are proposing because that's not how tax raises work. So it's just to make them look good in front of their leftist youth admirers.


Sure, I am sure that is what is causing it all. A true Neo-con talking.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:44 am

aviationaware wrote:
Well like others mentioned, nothing keeps him from voluntarily paying more. He doesn't because he knows politicians can't be trusted with money. This Soros/Disney thing is nothing but a well thought out publicity stunt either since they too could give voluntarily but don't. They also know their demand has zero chance of passing and of course this raise of revenue would never be used for the purposes they are proposing because that's not how tax raises work. So it's just to make them look good in front of their leftist youth admirers.


I know you are ignoring me, but still you read what I write, so perhaps you want to educate yourself and read what these billionaires actually wrote? Do you have any comments on their arguments?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
c933103
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:27 pm

aviationaware wrote:
it quite clearly shows that despite the marginal tax rate falling precipitously between the 1960s and 1980s, both federal receipts and total government receipts (including state and local) have stayed relatively stable around 17% and 25% of GDP, respectively - the share has even increased as the marginal tax rate came down.

The same is true for the corporate federal tax rate - meaningful reductions have not reduced federal receipts .

But didn't large company or high net worth individuals contributed to or accounted for a significantly more percent of GDP in 1980s compared to 1960s?
This is a placeholder.
 
c933103
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:35 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Well there's a sweet spot of course. Case in point was that the sweet spot is below where we are now, not above.


So why is infrastructure all over the US aging and falling apart and the national debt higher than it's ever been?


Because the government has no spending discipline and the social programs, particularly medicare, are bankrupting us faster than we can look because of their inherent flaws. By the way, the "national debt" in the strict sense is actually flat as a percentage of GDP since Trump took over. But that is of course ignoring the black hole of unfunded liabilities in the social programs the government can't really control without making cuts to the programs because they are dictated by demographics. They make the real government debt balloon to 150 trillion dollars.

How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?

Olddog wrote:
I wonder if you remember warren buffet going public and saying it was not normal for him to pay less taxes than his secretary ?


Well like others mentioned, nothing keeps him from voluntarily paying more. He doesn't because he knows politicians can't be trusted with money. This Soros/Disney thing is nothing but a well thought out publicity stunt either since they too could give voluntarily but don't. They also know their demand has zero chance of passing and of course this raise of revenue would never be used for the purposes they are proposing because that's not how tax raises work. So it's just to make them look good in front of their leftist youth admirers.

How much do you think they have donated?
This is a placeholder.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8526
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?

I suspect it is because of the way the USA was made up / founded, the states did not give up all of their rights when the union was created, so unlike a lot of other countries where the central government is supreme in all things and can make and shape the population in all manner of ways, such is a bit more difficult in the USA, hence the myriad of differences
between states, especially financial.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:41 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
..depends on the definition of "rich" and in what form those people are "rich" in.
It seems that the state of New York derives 46% of its budget income from taxing the top 1% earners. Cutting those taxes would obviously be a blow to the budget. But then again raising taxes too high might provoke some of those people to leave. In short, it is a delicate balancing act.


It’s already on the edge and people are leaving. All it takes is 300 millionaires to leave, and the whole state and City finances collapse. And Trump reform did not help obviously - now I have even more incentives to think on moving to nearby New Jersey (and leave the city taxes behind), and save some money.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW some speculate the sweet spot is around 65% - 70% mark.


Modern democratic societies have too many people who like counting someone else’s money way too much. Remember we talked about productivity on another thread? Well - there have to be incentives for individuals to improve themselves. Sweet spot in my experience - half of that. Governments of all levels should never target for more than 30%.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW some speculate the sweet spot is around 65% - 70% mark.


Modern democratic societies have too many people who like counting someone else’s money way too much. Remember we talked about productivity on another thread? Well - there have to be incentives for individuals to improve themselves. Sweet spot in my experience - half of that. Governments of all levels should never target for more than 30%.


In your experience? :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
..depends on the definition of "rich" and in what form those people are "rich" in.
It seems that the state of New York derives 46% of its budget income from taxing the top 1% earners. Cutting those taxes would obviously be a blow to the budget. But then again raising taxes too high might provoke some of those people to leave. In short, it is a delicate balancing act.


It’s already on the edge and people are leaving. All it takes is 300 millionaires to leave, and the whole state and City finances collapse. And Trump reform did not help obviously - now I have even more incentives to think on moving to nearby New Jersey (and leave the city taxes behind), and save some money.


Sure, you are a top 1% -er :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
c933103
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:22 pm

par13del wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?

I suspect it is because of the way the USA was made up / founded, the states did not give up all of their rights when the union was created, so unlike a lot of other countries where the central government is supreme in all things and can make and shape the population in all manner of ways, such is a bit more difficult in the USA, hence the myriad of differences
between states, especially financial.

Then why none of any 50 American states have particularly noteworthy performance in these things for social support?
This is a placeholder.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?


See - this is what I call mismanaged expectations. America, government, state, taxpayers - aren’t anyone’s daddy. Individuals should not rely on anyone else, and apply more efforts to support themselves, go for compromises in places to live, lifestyle, etc. And not count money hard earned by others.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:

In your experience? :lol:


Yes - I’ve lived in quite a few different places, as you know. With different tax rates.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?


See - this is what I call mismanaged expectations. America, government, state, taxpayers - aren’t anyone’s daddy. Individuals should not rely on anyone else, and apply more efforts to support themselves, go for compromises in places to live, lifestyle, etc. And not count money hard earned by others.


Hard earned? You need to educate me why it is that in the 1970's the average CEO made around 20 times what the average earner in his company made, nowadays it is more than 250times.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Sure, you are a top 1% -er :rotfl:


Well - jokes aside. New York City has municipal income tax of 3.5-3.7%. If your income is rather moderate (below 100K/year, which isn’t that much for this area), it’s not that big of a deal. But as it goes up, you look at your paystubs and start asking yourself - “doesn’t our ultra liberal hotly beloved City want too much?”. And think what are other options.

Most colleagues I’ve met certainly do consider this in choosing a place to settle.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sure, you are a top 1% -er :rotfl:


Well - jokes aside. New York City has municipal income tax of 3.5-3.7%. If your income is rather moderate (below 100K/year, which isn’t that much for this area), it’s not that big of a deal. But as it goes up, you look at your paystubs and start asking yourself - “doesn’t our ultra liberal hotly beloved City want too much?”. And think what are other options.

Most colleagues I’ve met certainly do consider this in choosing a place to settle.


You do know how a percentage works right? Laughable explanation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You do know how a percentage works right? Laughable explanation.


It’s the reality here - what’s laughable. Pretty much everyone making 6 figures is capable of counting their money and do not need any help of “do-gooders” and “social justice advocates”.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Hard earned? You need to educate me why it is that in the 1970's the average CEO made around 20 times what the average earner in his company made, nowadays it is more than 250times.


It’s up to the CEO and company’s shareholders how much money does the CEO make. Not somebody else’s. You still love too much counting someone else’s money. CEO is capable of counting his. And then nobody will and should count yours. Do we have a deal?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:37 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Hard earned? You need to educate me why it is that in the 1970's the average CEO made around 20 times what the average earner in his company made, nowadays it is more than 250times.


It’s up to the CEO and company’s shareholders how much money does the CEO make. Not somebody else’s. You still love too much counting someone else’s money. CEO is capable of counting his. And then nobody will and should count yours. Do we have a deal?


Only if you stop defending the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Only if you stop defending the Putin regime.


Dude - you really need to seek help. In your view - “low tax === Putin”? Then what about Hong Kong or Singapore - Kim John Un is taking a break?
 
anrec80
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:43 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
So why is infrastructure all over the US aging and falling apart and the national debt higher than it's ever been?


Too much socialism the country can not afford.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9175
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
It’s already on the edge and people are leaving. All it takes is 300 millionaires to leave, and the whole state and City finances collapse. And Trump reform did not help obviously - now I have even more incentives to think on moving to nearby New Jersey (and leave the city taxes behind), and save some money.

So what you are proving is that high taxes do not cause wealthy people to leave or change their desired home location.

Edge of wealth people, maybe, but not actually wealthy people. I know plenty of top-middle-class earners that complain and some move but they are not actually "the wealthy" (even the 1% club starts somewhere around $500,000 in annual income but that that varies from state to state in the USA). The truly wealthy you are describing, the 300 millionaires in NY, earn and more importantly control far more wealth than that.

As you have been trying to prove in this whole thread, the taxes don't make a difference to them. You are trying to use it to provide proof of one thing but it equally can be used to prove the other argument that you are desperate to avoid: Raise taxes on the wealthy, it won't affect them and they will pay it provided there aren't loopholes that allow them to not pay the higher rate. Sure my family hates taxes but even we are OK with higher taxes. It won't affect us much.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
c933103
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:01 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How come America being one of the most developed nation on the world, cannot support its own people in a way similar to what dozens other countries have done?


See - this is what I call mismanaged expectations. America, government, state, taxpayers - aren’t anyone’s daddy. Individuals should not rely on anyone else, and apply more efforts to support themselves, go for compromises in places to live, lifestyle, etc. And not count money hard earned by others.

"shouldn't" is a strong word when social support are designed to support those who "couldn't" support themselves
Last edited by c933103 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is a placeholder.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9153
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
It’s already on the edge and people are leaving. All it takes is 300 millionaires to leave, and the whole state and City finances collapse. And Trump reform did not help obviously - now I have even more incentives to think on moving to nearby New Jersey (and leave the city taxes behind), and save some money.

So what you are proving is that high taxes do not cause wealthy people to leave or change their desired home location.

Edge of wealth people, maybe, but not actually wealthy people. I know plenty of top-middle-class earners that complain and some move but they are actually "the wealthy" (even the 1% club starts somewhere around $500,000 in annual income but that that varies from state to state in the USA). The truly wealthy you are describing, the 300 millionaires in NY, earn and more importantly control far more wealth than that.

As you have been trying to prove in this whole thread, the taxes don't make a difference to them. You are trying to use it to provide proof of one thing but it equally can be used to prove the other argument that you are desperate to avoid: Raise taxes on the wealthy, it won't affect them and they will pay it provided there aren't loopholes that allow them to not pay the higher rate. Sure my family hates taxes but even we are OK with higher taxes. It won't affect us much.

Tugg


Precisely right - I know several people in the $75-$125K household range who have left my home SF Bay Area, but nobody I know over $400K plans to leave.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9175
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:02 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I don't know. Nobody prevented him from paying more voluntarily. IRS and nearly every state allow that.

So you believe the world economy, economies of the nations of the world derive their national state receipts on voluntary payments by individuals and companies? Is that what you think? Because that is what you statement is telling everyone. That Voluntary payments will make a noticable change and fund a government.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Raising taxes on the rich does not work

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:32 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Only if you stop defending the Putin regime.


Dude - you really need to seek help. In your view - “low tax === Putin”? Then what about Hong Kong or Singapore - Kim John Un is taking a break?


Your defending Putin in every way you can, so perhaps for you a reason to seek help, I mean, he is a foreign leader for you, isn't he ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: petertenthije and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos