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einsteinboricua
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Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:52 am

So over the weekend, Sanders decided to promote his idea of a $1.5T package to eliminate all student debt. This is a classic example of a proposal that's definitely too far left for me to stomach.

Is student debt an issue? Absolutely
Is it holding back economic growth? No doubt
Is higher education too expensive nowadays? You betcha!
Should it be erased? HELL NO!

Rather than eliminate the debt, I would counter with a deal to take the interest rate as close to zero, if not at zero. But the youth of today needs to get one thing clear: when you make an agreement, you're expected to hold up your end of the bargain. If the degree you chose only made you eligible for a barista position or an Uber/Lyft driver, it shouldn't be my responsibility to bail you out. Unlike healthcare, this is something you COULD control. You COULD have gotten a degree that would make you more marketable. You COULD have studied something that allows you to be self sufficient and self made if worst comes to shove. But the most important thing to learn: there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Should interest rates be lowered to zero? Yep. If in the end the student should pay back the money, they will contribute more to the treasury coffers through their payroll taxes eventually but in the meantime, a 0% interest loan is not a problem so long as it's also capped at a certain amount per year. Oh, and the money never touches the student's hands; it would go straight to the campus of study, and they only get 6 years to finish a non-STEM undergraduate degree, and 8 for a STEM degree (people fail courses, drop out due to poor grades, or take a semester off. Maybe the university cancels a section at the last minute). Only a small portion goes to the student to purchase materials and for living arrangements.

There is no reason to be complaining about student debt and how Millenials and Gen Zers are "destroying institutions" because they can't afford many items that Baby Boomers and some Gen Xers were able to. Federal loans should be made out with 0% interest rate. If someone goes through a private lender, that's a different story and the government shouldn't intervene with their rates.

Thoughts?
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anrec80
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:04 am

As usual - robbing Peter to pay Paul. Nothing new.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:11 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
So over the weekend, Sanders decided to promote his idea of a $1.5T package to eliminate all student debt. This is a classic example of a proposal that's definitely too far left for me to stomach.

Is student debt an issue? Absolutely
Is it holding back economic growth? No doubt
Is higher education too expensive nowadays? You betcha!
Should it be erased? HELL NO!

Rather than eliminate the debt, I would counter with a deal to take the interest rate as close to zero, if not at zero. But the youth of today needs to get one thing clear: when you make an agreement, you're expected to hold up your end of the bargain. If the degree you chose only made you eligible for a barista position or an Uber/Lyft driver, it shouldn't be my responsibility to bail you out. Unlike healthcare, this is something you COULD control. You COULD have gotten a degree that would make you more marketable. You COULD have studied something that allows you to be self sufficient and self made if worst comes to shove. But the most important thing to learn: there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Should interest rates be lowered to zero? Yep. If in the end the student should pay back the money, they will contribute more to the treasury coffers through their payroll taxes eventually but in the meantime, a 0% interest loan is not a problem so long as it's also capped at a certain amount per year. Oh, and the money never touches the student's hands; it would go straight to the campus of study, and they only get 6 years to finish a non-STEM undergraduate degree, and 8 for a STEM degree (people fail courses, drop out due to poor grades, or take a semester off. Maybe the university cancels a section at the last minute). Only a small portion goes to the student to purchase materials and for living arrangements.

There is no reason to be complaining about student debt and how Millenials and Gen Zers are "destroying institutions" because they can't afford many items that Baby Boomers and some Gen Xers were able to. Federal loans should be made out with 0% interest rate. If someone goes through a private lender, that's a different story and the government shouldn't intervene with their rates.

Thoughts?

Well said. Not to mention the irony of a candidate who so ardently paints himself as the champion of the poor and working class pushing a policy that is unquestionably a massive wealth transfer from the have-nots to the haves.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:12 am

When it is chosen debt it should not be free or forgiven in general.

There are so many piss poor for profit colleges that should not be covered either.

Sorry, it's a cute idea but not for education that is entirely the decision of the student.

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sierrakilo44
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:13 am

It’s ridiculous young people are in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt at the start of their careers. Young people aren’t the most worldly bunch at that age so saying it’s their fault for choosing the wrong degree is not a helpful position.

If I were running the educational system higher education would be totally free but with some caveats:

1. Places are limited to the amount of graduates that are needed in that area. So if forecasts suggest we need x amount of teachers or dentists or electricians or pilots etc in 3 years time the amount of available places are limited to that.

2. Student agree to work in the country that paid their tuition for a set number of years

3. If not enough local students apply foreign students are allowed in to study as well tuition free but with an agreement to work in the country and pay tax for an amount of time.

4. Because places are limited then only people who are truly wanting to earn the degree and work in that field are allowed into it, ie lower dropout rates and a higher quality of student.

5. If there are more applicants than positions available then a selection process is carried out and only the best are allowed into the course.

6. Universities stop dumbing down their courses to allow as many students in as possible to make a profit. A smaller number of higher quality students is the goal.
 
Ken777
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:43 am

Forgive it? Nope.

But we have REAL need to bring it back to reality. that means return the debt program to the government and charge students the same prime rate that banks pay. The Student Loan Programs should be an investment in our national future, just like the GI Bill was after WW II, It should NOT be a major profit center for banks, especially the larger ones. The IRS is just as competent to handle systems related to student loans, especially if payment is based as a percentage of income.

The total student loan program today is a burden on our economy. It's about level with Credit Card Debt and Auto Loans. When you can buy a car with a 7 year loan you know you have problems. Not a lot we can do about that, but we can take a hard look a credit card interest rates and clean up that rip off.

Resetting the student loan disaster would include prime interest rates, management by the government and not the banks AND crediting interest p]aid above prime to the loan balances.

In terms of the 3rd rate for profit schools - they should either deliver to their students or be shut down and pay heavy fines. No sympathy from me on those folks. Shift those funds to public trade schools with free or very low tuition.
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:46 am

I think the interest should be forgiven and the face value should be paid. If the student in question has paid over the face value due to the interest and outside factors, then the difference between the face value and amount paid should be paid back and no further payments should be required.

Then it should be restuctured based on degree field. Lower interest rates for STEM, teaching, and business degrees, and higher rates for art and music degrees; in an effort to push students to get more technical degrees. Trade schools would also be at or around the STEM rate, or even some kind of tax break for corporations that pay for a portion of or all of a students education.
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:55 am

As someone who has a TON of student loan debt and will have to start repaying in about 5 months (haha, like that's going to happen), I can't say I'm against this, but the entire system has to be fixed.

There should be NO interest rate for government loans. Private loans are different, you chose to go through a private entity and signed a contract with them saying you'd pay them back, with interest. No different from taking out a credit card or mortgage or any other private loan.

Government loans are different, they should be ENCOURAGING education through NO interest rates, all forgiven after 10 years of making payments, and working with the colleges to lower tuition rates.

I am blessed to have ZERO private loans but have a ton of government loans, ones that I will probably just make the government take money out of my paycheck with because I refuse to pay $500 a month on my lowly salary.
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fallap
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:02 am

How about introducing government sponsored (I am careful not to use the word "free") education with no tuition fees? A system similar to the one in many West European nations (except the UK, boooh!) :)
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:13 am

I see this issue brought up all the time. A quick wiki says the average student debt in the usa is 37k. google says the average cost of a new car in the usa is 36k so that seems fair.
Here in spain the cost for uni is a tenth of that.
 
dmg626
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:29 am

Super80Fan wrote:
As someone who has a TON of student loan debt and will have to start repaying in about 5 months (haha, like that's going to happen), I can't say I'm against this, but the entire system has to be fixed.

There should be NO interest rate for government loans. Private loans are different, you chose to go through a private entity and signed a contract with them saying you'd pay them back, with interest. No different from taking out a credit card or mortgage or any other private loan.

Government loans are different, they should be ENCOURAGING education through NO interest rates, all forgiven after 10 years of making payments, and working with the colleges to lower tuition rates.

I am blessed to have ZERO private loans but have a ton of government loans, ones that I will probably just make the government take money out of my paycheck with because I refuse to pay $500 a month on my lowly salary.


That “ton” of debt should have prepared you for a well paying job. Apparently it didn’t?
 
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DL717
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:22 pm

Easy to get student loans has driven up the cost of education. Vicious circle. More money available, more money paid to teachers and Sr. Admin staff, increased tuition rates. When public university heads are paid nearly $1 million a year, there is another problem. Private schools can pay what they want, that’s their problem.

Some people need to come to terms with the fact that not everyone needs to go to college. It’s taught from Kindergarten now that you have to be perfect going forward to get into college or you’re going to end up a piece of dirt. This causes businesses to increase the qualifications for applicants. Again, viscous circle.

Too much money is spent on nonsense degree programs that don’t prepare students for anything other than eventually teaching useless degree programs. They graduate and find their coveted degree is completely useless. There needs to be a focus on getting back to core programs. When I went through, you got an engineering degree, business degree etc. now kids are getting degrees in basket weaving. Yet another viscous circle.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:46 pm

DL717 wrote:
Some people need to come to terms with the fact that not everyone needs to go to college. It’s taught from Kindergarten now that you have to be perfect going forward to get into college or you’re going to end up a piece of dirt. This causes businesses to increase the qualifications for applicants. Again, viscous circle.

You still have to distinguish yourself somehow. The job you get out of high school is likely more volatile than one you get with a (useful) college degree. It's a fact many factory workers and coalminers are still refusing to come to terms with: without college education, you're worth only what you can product, up until you're replaced with a more economic version. When your resume says that you've only tightened screws on a car for 10 years, why would I hire you for something else?
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:13 pm

I recently went back for my ten-year reunion at a top U.S. "non-profit" University (the non-profit here, as in most universities, should be understood in the same context as GM was a non-profit institution prior to 2008 - whatever revenue they manage to bring in, they blow it all on themselves). I thought it would be interesting to see what the compound rate of tuition growth has been since I left (a period of time where inflation in the overall economy has been in the 2-3% range, or less). Turns out that over the past ten years, tuition has grown, on average, at 6.4% a year (double to triple the rate of inflation in the overall economy), or much, much higher than starting salaries have grown. I wonder how much faster this tuition growth would be if the government was giving way free money to attend.
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:48 pm

Pyrex wrote:
I wonder how much faster this tuition growth would be if the government was giving way free money to attend


That is the issue.

Simply throwing the money at the problem will only make it worse. The education cost runaways bear a lot of similarities with those of the medical costs in the US.
The entire system has to be fixed, but this would take the kind of bipartisan political will, compromise and pragmatism that hasn't existed in the States for a long time now.
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:28 pm

People want to pursue their passions, and if their passion doesn’t include a high paying job or getting a degree that’s more marketable then why force them to do that and they end up debt free or debt light but still miserable?

I’m not saying eliminate all debt, but we need to bring education costs under control. While this proposal is overkill, sometimes you have to propose overkill to get good enough.
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seat64k
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:58 pm

DL717 wrote:
Easy to get student loans has driven up the cost of education. Vicious circle. More money available, more money paid to teachers and Sr. Admin staff, increased tuition rates.


From what I've read over the last decade or so, teaching staff salaries have not gone up much, nowhere near enough to explain the rise in tuition anyway, but the administrative body has dramatically increased in size.
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:22 pm

seat64k wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Easy to get student loans has driven up the cost of education. Vicious circle. More money available, more money paid to teachers and Sr. Admin staff, increased tuition rates.


From what I've read over the last decade or so, teaching staff salaries have not gone up much, nowhere near enough to explain the rise in tuition anyway, but the administrative body has dramatically increased in size.

Bureaucracy is a terribly hungry beast! They constantly justify the need for the growth.

And look up the growth in adjunct professors around the nation....

Tugg
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MaverickM11
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:14 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
So over the weekend, Sanders decided to promote his idea of a $1.5T package to eliminate all student debt. This is a classic example of a proposal that's definitely too far left for me to stomach.

It just doesn't fix the problem at all. But it's a bargain compared to the $7T wasted on wars, or the trillions in tax cuts and bailouts--it might even pay for itself! There's just too much money chasing too few classroom seats, while wages have remained largely stagnant, so debt forgiveness does nothing to change that equation.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:47 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
But it's a bargain compared to the $7T wasted on wars, or the trillions in tax cuts and bailouts--it might even pay for itself!

I don't doubt that, but pointing to the wars and tax cuts is not a justification to follow through with this either (though it's an excellent tool to use against war hawks).

But what is the main lesson being taught if the government goes in and cancels everyone's student debt? What about those who incurred in debt, got a good paying job, and paid it off? What does it tell prospective students?

Again: buy their interest; lower the rate to zero or a fraction of a percentage. Or make it merit-based. Why should the literature student's debt be considered equally as important as an engineering student's debt? Why should a student who went for a few years and never graduated have their debt erased just as much as the one who went to law school and got a JD?

Or do a quid pro quo and if we're gonna buy this generation's debt off, require the folks to put at least 10 years of public service (i.e. working at any department agency in their capacity, do volunteer work, etc.). Any refusal or unfulfillment of the terms will result in person having to pay back the incomplete part of the term.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:29 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
But it's a bargain compared to the $7T wasted on wars, or the trillions in tax cuts and bailouts--it might even pay for itself!

I don't doubt that, but pointing to the wars and tax cuts is not a justification to follow through with this either (though it's an excellent tool to use against war hawks).

Agreed, but I don't know what the solution really is. Subsidizing interest rates roughly does the same thing. I think there needs to be some sort of mechanism to encourage higher ed to simply supply more seats--not unlike the housing crisis--but that presents its own issues.
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seat64k
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:30 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Agreed, but I don't know what the solution really is. Subsidizing interest rates roughly does the same thing.


Not really. Cancelling the interest changes the situation from:

"Student has large debt that's growing as fast as (or faster than) they're able to pay it off, so they can't get out from under it."

to

"Student has large debt, but every bit they pay makes a permanent and irreversible dent in it, and the debt won't grow when they're unemployed or unable to make a payment."

Combine this with sensible payment arrangements, for example a reasonable percentage of monthly income, so that it's not a huge amount at the start, but scales up as the person's income increases.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:16 pm

seat64k wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Agreed, but I don't know what the solution really is. Subsidizing interest rates roughly does the same thing.


Not really. Cancelling the interest changes the situation from:

"Student has large debt that's growing as fast as (or faster than) they're able to pay it off, so they can't get out from under it."

to

"Student has large debt, but every bit they pay makes a permanent and irreversible dent in it, and the debt won't grow when they're unemployed or unable to make a payment."

Combine this with sensible payment arrangements, for example a reasonable percentage of monthly income, so that it's not a huge amount at the start, but scales up as the person's income increases.

Student debt may be solved, but it doesn't take away the fact that reducing/eliminating interest rates for higher education means more people jumping at the chance to get an education. MaverickM11's point is that there's currently a finite supply of seats. Universities will have to be more selective among their students and cap the number of students admitted or expand to supply more seats if they wish to maintain tuition rates at a stable level. Supply and demand, even though it shouldn't be like that.

The only other way this is solved is if the federal government builds campuses so that it's also in the education business. You'd have (for example) Ohio State University competing against the Federal American University in Ohio. OSU would still get some form of federal funding, but the FAU has stable tuition with loans without interest rates (unless you take private loans) and may be more attractive to students with less resources. And to ensure that it does not get overwhelmed, make such that only Ohio and immediate neighboring state students are allowed to attend (some students will no doubt want to go for the prestige that OSU offers or Harvard or MIT). Each state can get its own campus (except in the MT, WY, Dakotas region where one large campus can absorb students from those 4 states).
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seat64k
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:57 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Student debt may be solved, but it doesn't take away the fact that reducing/eliminating interest rates for higher education means more people jumping at the chance to get an education.


Oh, I don't dispute that. I just don't think forgiving the interest and forgiving the entire debt would have the same effect in the same magnitude. The one tells prospective students they don't have to care how much debt they take on for their low-value degree, government will take care of it. The other tells students they're still responsible, the debt burden just won't crush them in the same way.

Of course, what to do about the debt is just fighting over the symptoms of a much harder problem.
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:48 am

dmg626 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
As someone who has a TON of student loan debt and will have to start repaying in about 5 months (haha, like that's going to happen), I can't say I'm against this, but the entire system has to be fixed.

There should be NO interest rate for government loans. Private loans are different, you chose to go through a private entity and signed a contract with them saying you'd pay them back, with interest. No different from taking out a credit card or mortgage or any other private loan.

Government loans are different, they should be ENCOURAGING education through NO interest rates, all forgiven after 10 years of making payments, and working with the colleges to lower tuition rates.

I am blessed to have ZERO private loans but have a ton of government loans, ones that I will probably just make the government take money out of my paycheck with because I refuse to pay $500 a month on my lowly salary.


That “ton” of debt should have prepared you for a well paying job. Apparently it didn’t?


Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.
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mham001
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:28 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.


The picture you've painted with a "nice paying job" just means you are unwilling to make the necessary cuts in your lifestyle to pay your debt - my money. You debt comes before your 401k and you may need to find less expensive living accommodations, but that is your burden, not your debtor's. I hope they chase you to the end of the earth - with full interest.
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:51 am

mham001 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.


The picture you've painted with a "nice paying job" just means you are unwilling to make the necessary cuts in your lifestyle to pay your debt - my money. You debt comes before your 401k and you may need to find less expensive living accommodations, but that is your burden, not your debtor's. I hope they chase you to the end of the earth - with full interest.


Yeah the government can try to chase after me and millions of others who don't pay. They will go bankrupt trying than just cancelling it out. And yes, I am unwilling to change my lifestyle to pay back something that should be free. As I said, would be completely different if I took out a private loan from a private institution with a signed contract.

How come every other first world nation has free/subsidized education but we can't?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:17 am

Super80Fan wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.


The picture you've painted with a "nice paying job" just means you are unwilling to make the necessary cuts in your lifestyle to pay your debt - my money. You debt comes before your 401k and you may need to find less expensive living accommodations, but that is your burden, not your debtor's. I hope they chase you to the end of the earth - with full interest.


Yeah the government can try to chase after me and millions of others who don't pay. They will go bankrupt trying than just cancelling it out. And yes, I am unwilling to change my lifestyle to pay back something that should be free. As I said, would be completely different if I took out a private loan from a private institution with a signed contract.

How come every other first world nation has free/subsidized education but we can't?


I’m certain at some point you signed an contract for the college loan. You clearly are indebted and unwilling to pay, thus putting the government (that would be the taxpayers) on the hook to repay the bank or college issuing the debt. Pay up! I can’t believe someone would boast of being a dead beat, but that’s America today.

GF
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
mham001 wrote:

The picture you've painted with a "nice paying job" just means you are unwilling to make the necessary cuts in your lifestyle to pay your debt - my money. You debt comes before your 401k and you may need to find less expensive living accommodations, but that is your burden, not your debtor's. I hope they chase you to the end of the earth - with full interest.


Yeah the government can try to chase after me and millions of others who don't pay. They will go bankrupt trying than just cancelling it out. And yes, I am unwilling to change my lifestyle to pay back something that should be free. As I said, would be completely different if I took out a private loan from a private institution with a signed contract.

How come every other first world nation has free/subsidized education but we can't?


I’m certain at some point you signed an contract for the college loan. You clearly are indebted and unwilling to pay, thus putting the government (that would be the taxpayers) on the hook to repay the bank or college issuing the debt. Pay up! I can’t believe someone would boast of being a dead beat, but that’s America today.

GF


Yeah, I have a job, pay my taxes/rent/insurance/everything else on time, contribute to the economy, and yet according to you, I'm a deadbeat.

Can't wait for the boomers to die off. You people have no grasp on life or society outside of your life.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
aviationaware
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:46 am

Socializing student debt is absolutely anti-social. Everyone paying for their own education is an inherently fair deal, because they're the ones who are going to benefit from it. Why should a bricklayer pay for you to go to college? Makes no sense and is absolutely unfair.

If you don't think you'll ever be able to pay back your student loan, don't go to college. Way too many people go to college studying crap nobody needs. We need SOME people who study the humanities. SOME. Not half the country.
 
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:07 am

Super80Fan wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yeah the government can try to chase after me and millions of others who don't pay. They will go bankrupt trying than just cancelling it out. And yes, I am unwilling to change my lifestyle to pay back something that should be free. As I said, would be completely different if I took out a private loan from a private institution with a signed contract.

How come every other first world nation has free/subsidized education but we can't?


I’m certain at some point you signed an contract for the college loan. You clearly are indebted and unwilling to pay, thus putting the government (that would be the taxpayers) on the hook to repay the bank or college issuing the debt. Pay up! I can’t believe someone would boast of being a dead beat, but that’s America today.

GF


Yeah, I have a job, pay my taxes/rent/insurance/everything else on time, contribute to the economy, and yet according to you, I'm a deadbeat.

Can't wait for the boomers to die off. You people have no grasp on life or society outside of your life.

No one forced you to take on debt you can't afford. So I guess it's just fine to stiff American tax payers like me because being a deadbeat is some sort of entitlement? You certainly have no grasp of reality if you think you are not responsible for the debts you agree to pay. If it was up to me, you would not get a single penny of my tax dollars for a debt YOU agreed to pay.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:14 am

stratclub wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I’m certain at some point you signed an contract for the college loan. You clearly are indebted and unwilling to pay, thus putting the government (that would be the taxpayers) on the hook to repay the bank or college issuing the debt. Pay up! I can’t believe someone would boast of being a dead beat, but that’s America today.

GF


Yeah, I have a job, pay my taxes/rent/insurance/everything else on time, contribute to the economy, and yet according to you, I'm a deadbeat.

Can't wait for the boomers to die off. You people have no grasp on life or society outside of your life.

No one forced you to take on debt you can't afford. So I guess it's just fine to stiff American tax payers like me because being a deadbeat is some sort of entitlement? You certainly have no grasp of reality if you think you are not responsible for the debts you agree to pay. If it was up to me, you would not get a single penny of my tax dollars for a debt YOU agreed to pay.


I don’t think you understand my point. I never took out a private loan. I never screwed over a private business. The government is ENTITLED to pay for their population’s education. It’s in everyone’s best interest. How come all the other first world nations have free and/or subsidized education but our third world country does not?

Simple answer, the selfish boomer generation.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
aviationaware
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:16 am

Super80Fan wrote:
It’s in everyone’s best interest.


How is it in everyone's best interest to pay for you to get a useless humanities degree that has no economic utility and you subsequently end up flipping burgers at the next In'n'Out complaining how miserable your life is?
 
dmg626
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:25 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.


The picture you've painted with a "nice paying job" just means you are unwilling to make the necessary cuts in your lifestyle to pay your debt - my money. You debt comes before your 401k and you may need to find less expensive living accommodations, but that is your burden, not your debtor's. I hope they chase you to the end of the earth - with full interest.


Yeah the government can try to chase after me and millions of others who don't pay. They will go bankrupt trying than just cancelling it out. And yes, I am unwilling to change my lifestyle to pay back something that should be free. As I said, would be completely different if I took out a private loan from a private institution with a signed contract.

How come every other first world nation has free/subsidized education but we can't?



Don’t pay the government, see how well that works for you. The government won’t go bankrupt, but you will.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3351
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:38 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yeah, I have a job, pay my taxes/rent/insurance/everything else on time, contribute to the economy, and yet according to you, I'm a deadbeat.

Can't wait for the boomers to die off. You people have no grasp on life or society outside of your life.

No one forced you to take on debt you can't afford. So I guess it's just fine to stiff American tax payers like me because being a deadbeat is some sort of entitlement? You certainly have no grasp of reality if you think you are not responsible for the debts you agree to pay. If it was up to me, you would not get a single penny of my tax dollars for a debt YOU agreed to pay.


I don’t think you understand my point. I never took out a private loan. I never screwed over a private business. The government is ENTITLED to pay for their population’s education. It’s in everyone’s best interest. How come all the other first world nations have free and/or subsidized education but our third world country does not?

Simple answer, the selfish boomer generation.


Where did you get the idea that the taxpayers are required to pay for your college education. Please provide reference or are you rationalizing your theft?
 
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jdstJD
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
When it is chosen debt it should not be free or forgiven in general.

There are so many piss poor for profit colleges that should not be covered either.

Sorry, it's a cute idea but not for education that is entirely the decision of the student.

Tugg


I have to agree with this. I have a ton of student debt that was offered to me by the federal government and sure I would love for it to magically disappear, but I have always looked at my federally subsidized student loans as the country’s investment in me in an effort to assist me in becoming a self sufficient, asset to the society once I received my degrees. I’ve never perceived my education, paid for in large part my the taxpayers, as an entitlement. I don’t see the rationale behind that mindset. We are all taxpayers and the purpose of taxes, both federal and local, is for the representative government to provide common services necessary for the livelihood of all of us. While some taxpayers feel using those dollars to fully cover their post secondary education is one of those common needs, many others do not and they have a legitimate reason for feeling that way. The government covers everyone’s education from k-12, unless your family chooses to incur the cost to provide their child with private education. But beyond your 12th year of schooling, everyone makes the conscious decision as to what they want to do with their education and life from there. I am paying my student loans back and I feel good doing it. I’m broke as hell but I made the decision the further my education for both my own personal sense of where I wanted to go in life as well as the sense that I feel I owe my fellow Americans their money back for their investment in me.

Just sayin.
Lawyer, frequent air traveler and aviation enthusiast.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:14 pm

Super80Fan wrote:

I don’t think you understand my point. I never took out a private loan. I never screwed over a private business. The government is ENTITLED to pay for their population’s education. It’s in everyone’s best interest. How come all the other first world nations have free and/or subsidized education but our third world country does not?



We understand what you are saying. We just find it unethical and factually incorrect.

You freely entered into a contract and are trying to shirk your responsibility under it, claiming it is ok because you’re screwing over every taxpayer in America instead of a private business. Posters here are reacting to it because it displays a lack of integrity by not keeping your word.

You claim you are entitled to a free higher education from the federal government, when nothing of the sort is guaranteed by the constitution or any other federal law. While a well educated population is generally in our best interest, it is still up to society to decide whether it wants to make that substantial investment for free higher education, and so far ours does not. You don’t get to force that on 300 million fellow citizens. There are of course federal programs that subsidize education for students from low income families like Pell grants and the FAFSA program, so to say it’s unsubsidized is inaccurate.

Some states have decided it is worth the investment and created programs that provide for steeply reduced or free tuition to in-state students at public universities. Again, that’s the choice of those communities.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
texdravid
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:22 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Socializing student debt is absolutely anti-social. Everyone paying for their own education is an inherently fair deal, because they're the ones who are going to benefit from it. Why should a bricklayer pay for you to go to college? Makes no sense and is absolutely unfair.

If you don't think you'll ever be able to pay back your student loan, don't go to college. Way too many people go to college studying crap nobody needs. We need SOME people who study the humanities. SOME. Not half the country.


As always, you are spot on. Not everyone needs to go to college. Not even 1/10.
Furthermore, quit bellyaching about debt when you took that loan and majored in “gender studies”, “ womyn studies”, or he like. No sympathy at all. Pay back your loans or go bankrupt.

Time to bring debtors jails like the Victorian days of Dickens day.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:26 am

Forgive debt fully only to those who graduated with a minimum magna cum laude.
Reduce interests rates to at the most 1% for everyone else.
Reschedule payments so that you'll only pay when you reach a certain wage level, and that the interest payments kick in only when you start paying, not before.
Examine exorbitant college costs and control it.

That's what I'd do if I was running America. What I won't do is to promise full & unconditional pardon of all student debts.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:04 am

I'd rather educate myself (the Internet, Wikipedia, etc.) and have that 1.5T go to free and full health and medical care for life.

I forgot to add InfoWars, Breitbart, Reddit, and YouTube.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
anrec80
Posts: 1969
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:19 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Oh I have a nice paying job, just don't have anything left after taxes, 401K, insurance, rent, food, and other miscellaneous expenses.

Paying the government back is last on my list of things to do.


100% agree with you. Money earned by an individual should belong to that individual, and not taken away and "redistributed" (regardless who calls that how - be it "fair share" or something else). We got to our earning potential through certain level of stress, long hours at work, a lot of education. Nobody in the "society" gave us any of that.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
We got to our earning potential through certain level of stress, long hours at work, a lot of education. Nobody in the "society" gave us any of that.

Yes they did.
Absolutely you were GIVEN the opportunity and the tools and the systems to be able to educate yourself.

If you are not able to understand this, due to whatever limitations you may have, I recommend a long walk on a short pier that you build yourself. Or just ask your parents if they did anything at all to assist you in life.

Actually I want to know what you have done alone, yourself, What have you built that you use and helps you live? Anything?

You owe society (your parent, the community you grew up in, the neighbors, and more) and must pay for what you have been allowed to use.

Some people.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8800
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Re: Sanders's plan to eliminate school debt

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:37 pm

So now that everyone is up in arms, what are the real numbers?

1.5 Trillion in Student debt across 44 million people for an average debt of 34,000 a person.

I don't see this as insurmountable for a person to pay off.

I think interest should stay low for awhile, but it shouldn't be paid off automatically.

The question everyone should ask when they go to school is what is the debt to income ratio for their degree. Far too many people go to the wrong school . based on preference,prestige, or legacy issues. it might be more eye popping when students go to school if they see what that degree will really cost.
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