aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:13 am

Well, the EU politicians have reached another deal selling out their electorate:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/worl ... -deal.html

Key takeaways:
1) Free trade agreements with countries that have a far lower median wage result in labor being exported to those countries. The EU workers will pay the bill while a couple of super rich will reap all the GDP increases from this deal.

2) One of the key exports of Mercosur are agricultural products, specifically beef. This will make it harder for European farmers to produce beef competitively, while massively increasing the market for South American beef. This will cause much more rainforest being hewn down to provide farmland, which of course is poison if you buy the CO2 causes climate change thing which most EU politicians claim to do.

Also, reducing (relatively) environmentally friendly Europan beef production with much more environmentally damaging South American production will lower the European CO2 footprint (waiting for the first hypocritical politician to claim this) but at the same time increasing the global footprint.
This of course is exactly one of the "unintended side effects" I was talking about in one of the other threads.

So bottomline, this deal is bad for the European workers and bad for the climate. It shows where the Eurocrats true loyalties lie: with corporate interest and the super rich. It is a prime example of why free trade agreements are bad.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:24 am

And you can see no benefit whatsoever for the EU? Strange that they are so bad in negotiation that they gave away everything.

Since when are the ultra right concerned about the environment? Only last week you were flag waving for war in Iran.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2794
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:03 am

Lol, I haven’t even read the link but still at least you’ll have some salt to go with that beef along with the chip on your shoulder. Just add in some sour grapes and you are well on your way to a full meal!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:23 am

BestWestern wrote:
And you can see no benefit whatsoever for the EU? Strange that they are so bad in negotiation that they gave away everything.

Since when are the ultra right concerned about the environment? Only last week you were flag waving for war in Iran.


1. I was never flag waving for war in Iran. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. I'm very concerned with the environment. Unlike the Eurocrats it seems.
3. There is upside in this for the EU - at least for the top 0.01% of it.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:48 am

So now you are against free trade, competition and pro-environment protection and workers protection. Interesting elastic points of view you have, especially since you are one of the more vocal Trump supporters and self-proclaimed economic expert. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:59 am

I'm still trying to take this in. We're being told that after Brexit border controls will have to be introduced to protect EU standards. How exactly is the EU going to monitor food standards and implement traceablity across most of the South American continent?
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
So now you are against free trade, competition and pro-environment protection and workers protection. Interesting elastic points of view you have, especially since you are one of the more vocal Trump supporters and self-proclaimed economic expert. :lol:


I'm for fair trade, fair competition, a clean environment and everyone having the same opportunity to get ahead. Unfortunately the same cannot be said by many in politics today.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:41 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm still trying to take this in. We're being told that after Brexit border controls will have to be introduced to protect EU standards. How exactly is the EU going to monitor food standards and implement traceablity across most of the South American continent?


we will not monitor it, although spot inspections will indeed happen, but we will see if the agreement is enforced locally as will these countries within the EU.

Brexiteers want to have their own set of regulations, we are Brits we say what can be done and not, fine, but than you cannot trade at the same level and thus border controls will be introduced. You are free to make these choices, but like with every choice, there are consequences to this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:46 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So now you are against free trade, competition and pro-environment protection and workers protection. Interesting elastic points of view you have, especially since you are one of the more vocal Trump supporters and self-proclaimed economic expert. :lol:


I'm for fair trade, fair competition, a clean environment and everyone having the same opportunity to get ahead. Unfortunately the same cannot be said by many in politics today.


Has a nice ring to this, almost liberal socialism, and yet you are an advocate for the Trump administration whom doesn't support all of this.

I must say, I haven't read this agreement, but I bet, neither have you. So I don't know all the safeguards which are in there, which additional requirements there are. What is interesting though, none of the things you mentioned in your opening post are in the linked article, so where did you actually got your information from? And why didn't you link that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:17 am

Dutchy wrote:

Has a nice ring to this, almost liberal socialism, and yet you are an advocate for the Trump administration whom doesn't support all of this.


Trump supports at least three of the four things. Better than one as the Dems do.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:22 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Has a nice ring to this, almost liberal socialism, and yet you are an advocate for the Trump administration whom doesn't support all of this.


Trump supports at least three of the four things. Better than one as the Dems do.


Really? :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:25 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm still trying to take this in. We're being told that after Brexit border controls will have to be introduced to protect EU standards. How exactly is the EU going to monitor food standards and implement traceablity across most of the South American continent?


Brexit related border controls are not to enforce EU Standards, none of the European outside borders does that beyond spot checks that happen within the EU all the time as well. The CE mark for example is a self declaration, not a certification like FCC. You can, and should imho, have compliance certified, but legally you just have to declare compliance.
Within a free trade area the need for border checks in goods, and hence bureaucracy and costs are greatly reduced.

Dutchy wrote:
I must say, I haven't read this agreement, but I bet, neither have you.


Will be some mighty thick book to read. But the outline looks pretty much like a clear cut win for both sides, with the EU being the biggest winner.
It's nice how eager to make trade deals with the EU everyone has become since Trump. Thanks for that I guess...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:56 am

aviationaware wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
And you can see no benefit whatsoever for the EU? Strange that they are so bad in negotiation that they gave away everything.

Since when are the ultra right concerned about the environment? Only last week you were flag waving for war in Iran.


1. I was never flag waving for war in Iran. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. I'm very concerned with the environment. Unlike the Eurocrats it seems.
3. There is upside in this for the EU - at least for the top 0.01% of it.



Hum: U.S. Military Produces More Greenhouse Gas Emissions Than up to 140 Countries
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:10 am

Olddog wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
And you can see no benefit whatsoever for the EU? Strange that they are so bad in negotiation that they gave away everything.

Since when are the ultra right concerned about the environment? Only last week you were flag waving for war in Iran.


1. I was never flag waving for war in Iran. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. I'm very concerned with the environment. Unlike the Eurocrats it seems.
3. There is upside in this for the EU - at least for the top 0.01% of it.



Hum: U.S. Military Produces More Greenhouse Gas Emissions Than up to 140 Countries


Might sound like a big deal. It's not when you consider that most of those 140 countries are tiny. The biggest of them is Sierra Leone at not even 8 million people. Two thirds of those 140 countries don't even have a million people in it each. That headline is a big nothing burger.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:15 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm still trying to take this in. We're being told that after Brexit border controls will have to be introduced to protect EU standards. How exactly is the EU going to monitor food standards and implement traceablity across most of the South American continent?


Same way they are being done right now. I am sure you have already eaten Argentinian and Brazilian meat, Peruvian avocados, Chilean grapes, apples and berries and Ecuadorian chickpeas at some point (I certainly have).

Growers/meat producers have to certify their standards with a trusted (by the EU) agency, samples taken and analysed. On the port of entry samples are again taken randomly.

From time to time, imports from certain countries are found to have residues of forbidden pesticides, or too high levels of permitted pesticides which means the stock is destroyed, the exporter fined and eventually blocked from future import operations on case of repeat offenses.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:20 am

aviationaware wrote:
Olddog wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

1. I was never flag waving for war in Iran. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. I'm very concerned with the environment. Unlike the Eurocrats it seems.
3. There is upside in this for the EU - at least for the top 0.01% of it.



Hum: U.S. Military Produces More Greenhouse Gas Emissions Than up to 140 Countries


Might sound like a big deal. It's not when you consider that most of those 140 countries are tiny. The biggest of them is Sierra Leone at not even 8 million people. Two thirds of those 140 countries don't even have a million people in it each. That headline is a big nothing burger.


Ok, fair point, the average US citizens pollutes more than twice than the average EU citizen, better for you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Topic Author
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Olddog wrote:


Might sound like a big deal. It's not when you consider that most of those 140 countries are tiny. The biggest of them is Sierra Leone at not even 8 million people. Two thirds of those 140 countries don't even have a million people in it each. That headline is a big nothing burger.


Ok, fair point, the average US citizens pollutes more than twice than the average EU citizen, better for you?


Not surprising either considering half of the EU is ass poor.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:35 am

Someday you will understand that we share the same planet and the wake up will be hard.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:36 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Might sound like a big deal. It's not when you consider that most of those 140 countries are tiny. The biggest of them is Sierra Leone at not even 8 million people. Two thirds of those 140 countries don't even have a million people in it each. That headline is a big nothing burger.


Ok, fair point, the average US citizens pollutes more than twice than the average EU citizen, better for you?


Not surprising either considering half of the EU is ass poor.


as long as you don't have to take any responsibility, right? Yeah, you are as enviourmental minded as you are a good economist.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Derico
Posts: 4312
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:17 pm

Well I won't get into the free trade debate but to allay the fears of the OP there won't be any mass choppage of rain forest in Argentina, a latitude map can explain why, and also no mass relocation of factories. Argentina is no Vietnam or Pakistan or Central America on the wage scale, and add on top the onerous labor business and labor regulations, plus High inflation still, there is little if any competitive edge at this time.

Argentine wine maybe adversely affected as now heavily subsidized European wine will be a lot more competitive in the intern market. Biodiesel is another question mark. Seamless steel and energy machinery production is also a thing to watch since actually some far Eastern European Union countries have lower wages than in the industrial regions of Argentina.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:28 pm

Derico wrote:
Well I won't get into the free trade debate but to allay the fears of the OP there won't be any mass choppage of rain forest in Argentina, a latitude map can explain why, and also no mass relocation of factories. Argentina is no Vietnam or Pakistan or Central America on the wage scale, and add on top the onerous labor business and labor regulations, plus High inflation still, there is little if any competitive edge at this time.

Argentine wine maybe adversely affected as now heavily subsidized European wine will be a lot more competitive in the intern market. Biodiesel is another question mark. Seamless steel and energy machinery production is also a thing to watch since actually some far Eastern European Union countries have lower wages than in the industrial regions of Argentina.


:checkmark: Thank you for a real (and a sane) analysis. It is obvious that someone who claims to be "aware" of aviation doesn't have a clue about world trade...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11657
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:35 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm still trying to take this in. We're being told that after Brexit border controls will have to be introduced to protect EU standards. How exactly is the EU going to monitor food standards and implement traceablity across most of the South American continent?


It's a free trade agreement not an open borders agreement. Checks will happen. Tariffs will not be applied.

I haven't read the story but there are quotas for beef imports and I don't think these will change. Also hormone beef is still not welcome.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
we will not monitor it, although spot inspections will indeed happen, but we will see if the agreement is enforced locally as will these countries within the EU.


tommy1808 wrote:
Brexit related border controls are not to enforce EU Standards, none of the European outside borders does that beyond spot checks that happen within the EU all the time as well.


JJJ wrote:
On the port of entry samples are again taken randomly.

I'm thinking more in terms of something like BSE, where spot checks are useless. And, of course, the environmental concerns, which seem hypocritical to say the least.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11657
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:32 am

I propose the return of clipper ships :

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:38 pm

This FTA is partly a product of the Trump government trading policy. South America traditionally seen USA as the main export market. Now the increase of trade is directed at different markets as EU and China.
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:43 pm

This FTA has taken 20 years to negotiate. In average a FTA takes 7-8 years.

Right now I also see that EU normally trying to protect its farmers to great extent see the need to protect the liberal values. If EU wants a liberal world and a development in this direction EU have a need to create this kind of relations.

This said I consider that EU with this also get tool to demand protection of environment when purchasing products.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:02 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm thinking more in terms of something like BSE, where spot checks are useless.


You mean those countries don´t have equivalent standards when it comes to mad cow disease?

And, of course, the environmental concerns, which seem hypocritical to say the least.


The treaty has a whole chapter on environmental and labor protections.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:39 am

tommy1808 wrote:
You mean those countries don´t have equivalent standards when it comes to mad cow disease?

https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/ ... due-to-BSE

tommy1808 wrote:
The treaty has a whole chapter on environmental and labor protections.

Good luck with that one!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:51 am

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
You mean those countries don´t have equivalent standards when it comes to mad cow disease?

https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/ ... due-to-BSE


https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/ ... s-to-China

It was identified and apparently dealt with. So what is the problem here? BSE still will not be allowed for human consumption, regardless of a trade deal.

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
The treaty has a whole chapter on environmental and labor protections.

Good luck with that one!


? Is it perfect? No, of course not, does it help, yes. You rather that the EU doesn't make such provisions in their trade deals?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
? Is it perfect? No, of course not, does it help, yes. You rather that the EU doesn't make such provisions in their trade deals?


"But how about the environment?"
"It contains rules about that, that Mercosur didn't have before"
"Well that won't work!".

A wonderful example of no matter what one does, it's wrong....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
It was identified and apparently dealt with. So what is the problem here? BSE still will not be allowed for human consumption, regardless of a trade deal.

Do you really believe the EU will be able to carry out farm inspections in South America to the same level they do here?

Dutchy wrote:
? Is it perfect? No, of course not, does it help, yes. You rather that the EU doesn't make such provisions in their trade deals?

The EU can make all the provisions it likes in its trade deals. Whether they are adhered to is another matter entirely.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9545
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:07 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It was identified and apparently dealt with. So what is the problem here? BSE still will not be allowed for human consumption, regardless of a trade deal.

Do you really believe the EU will be able to carry out farm inspections in South America to the same level they do here?

Dutchy wrote:
? Is it perfect? No, of course not, does it help, yes. You rather that the EU doesn't make such provisions in their trade deals?

The EU can make all the provisions it likes in its trade deals. Whether they are adhered to is another matter entirely.


So your argument is not to make any trade deals at all because it can't be bullet proof?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
So your argument is not to make any trade deals at all because it can't be bullet proof?

I really don't see the point in enforcing such high standards here, while importing meat which may, or may not, have been produced to the same standard. A little hypocritical, don't you think?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So your argument is not to make any trade deals at all because it can't be bullet proof?

I really don't see the point in enforcing such high standards here, while importing meat which may, or may not, have been produced to the same standard. A little hypocritical, don't you think?


you seem to be under the impression that there is no South American Beef available in Europe...... the standards are already enforced.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 am

I think you just are unable to have enough respect for the EU negotiators. They are very used to theses deals and how to enforce them.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
you seem to be under the impression that there is no South American Beef available in Europe...... the standards are already enforced.

We're pretty-much self sufficient as regards beef here in Ireland. We do import some from the UK and a smaller amount from a handful of other EU countries. There was a minor furore a few months back when a supermarket was selling "Argentinan striploin steak". An investigation was launched and it was discovered the meat was Irish, and the "Argentenian" actually referred to the sauce.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:17 am

It’s funny how some on this thread think the EU sold out to the Mercosur nation in this FTA. The EU has a GDP of $18 trillion, the others about 2.4 trillion. I don’t know how bad of a negotiator the EU must be if they supposedly sold out to nations with a combined economy one seventh smaller than them?

To me, this is just another example of how bad the political disaster Brexit is. If the UK had’ve grown up and admitted their mistake they could’ve been enjoying the fruits of this trade deal, along with all the others the EU have negotiated lately like the one with Japan. Instead, the decision that we were told was going to allow the UK to sign all these “fantastic trade deals” has resulted in none (bar some that just continue exist EU arrangements, so why leave?), a total inability to agree on a trade deal with their biggest customer, the EU, a total inability to figure out what the border situation with Ireland will be, and a total inability to form a stable government (loss of two PM’s, minority government and the prospect of a greater split in parliament at the next election).
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:45 am

Braybuddy wrote:
An investigation was launched and it was discovered the meat was Irish, and the "Argentenian" actually referred to the sauce.


Thanks to EU regulations No. 1760/2000 and no.1825/2000 that investigstion should have been quite easy.
Point is it is not illegal to import beef from those countries into the EU before the FTA.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 am

Olddog wrote:
I think you just are unable to have enough respect for the EU negotiators. They are very used to theses deals and how to enforce them.

https://www.ifa.ie/new-eu-report-finds- ... t-exports/

"the Brazilian authorities seriously misled the EU Commission, and cannot guarantee European consumers that meat products exported to the EU have been produced in accordance with EU requirements"

"The report states that ‘the Brazilian Competent Authority is not in a position to guarantee that the relevant export requirements are met’. In addition the reports states ‘the Competent Authorities are signing export reports certificates despite being unable to ascertain the veracity of certain statements therein’."

I rest my case . . .
 
JJJ
Posts: 3242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:17 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I think you just are unable to have enough respect for the EU negotiators. They are very used to theses deals and how to enforce them.

https://www.ifa.ie/new-eu-report-finds- ... t-exports/

"the Brazilian authorities seriously misled the EU Commission, and cannot guarantee European consumers that meat products exported to the EU have been produced in accordance with EU requirements"

"The report states that ‘the Brazilian Competent Authority is not in a position to guarantee that the relevant export requirements are met’. In addition the reports states ‘the Competent Authorities are signing export reports certificates despite being unable to ascertain the veracity of certain statements therein’."

I rest my case . . .


And in response to that there was a huge ban for involved factories.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-b ... SKBN1HQ2AN

The EC said the ban was related to "deficiencies detected in the Brazilian official control system."
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:33 am

JJJ wrote:
And in response to that there was a huge ban for involved factories.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-b ... SKBN1HQ2AN

The EC said the ban was related to "deficiencies detected in the Brazilian official control system."

The words "door", "horse" and "bolted" come to mind . . .
 
JJJ
Posts: 3242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:14 am

Braybuddy wrote:
JJJ wrote:
And in response to that there was a huge ban for involved factories.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-b ... SKBN1HQ2AN

The EC said the ban was related to "deficiencies detected in the Brazilian official control system."

The words "door", "horse" and "bolted" come to mind . . .


The same could be said about the horsemeat scandal. Rules were tightened, new laws were written and as a result everything is slightly safer, but going back in time is not possible and the precrime unit isn't ready yet.

And the same doom and gloom was predicted when CETA was on the works.

CETA could be the final nail in the coffin for beef farmers – Kenny
https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/42178

Of course a beef producer like Ireland is not going to like opening trade with Argentina or Brazil. Just like machine tool producers in those countries will be very concerned about opening trade with Germany or Italy.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:39 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I think you just are unable to have enough respect for the EU negotiators. They are very used to theses deals and how to enforce them.

https://www.ifa.ie/new-eu-report-finds- ... t-exports/
....
I rest my case . . .


got a link from someone that isn´t a Lobby Organisation for Irish, or other, farmers?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11657
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:33 pm

People want to know more about what they're eating, they're more careful about it, they also eat less meat. So I doubt we will get much more meat from the Mercosur than we already get.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
got a link from someone that isn´t a Lobby Organisation for Irish, or other, farmers?

How about environmentalists:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-merc ... -over-yet/

https://www.france24.com/en/20190629-eu ... mentalists
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9277
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:54 pm

So is this a... (pardon the pun) a "done deal"? Everything has been signed and approved and is in place? Or is there still a formal legislative process needed to finally accept and implement it?

Just curious.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
JJJ
Posts: 3242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
got a link from someone that isn´t a Lobby Organisation for Irish, or other, farmers?

How about environmentalists:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-merc ... -over-yet/

https://www.france24.com/en/20190629-eu ... mentalists


Has there ever been a trade deal environmentalists won't oppose?

Greenpeace calls on ministers to reject CETA and put people and planet first
https://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/issu ... net-first/
 
JJJ
Posts: 3242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
So is this a... (pardon the pun) a "done deal"? Everything has been signed and approved and is in place? Or is there still a formal legislative process needed to finally accept and implement it?

Just curious.
Tugg


Announcement, meaning it has to be ratified by each country before it is formally adopted.
 
Derico
Posts: 4312
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:25 pm

The reason this deal is ideologically important is because there was no deal earlier because France and Argentina dragged it out for several years. The stars just happened to align with the simultaneous tenures of Macron and Macri, who happen to be elected on agendas of reform in their economies (among other coincidences, as their last names give away!), clearing a huge hurdle. Bolsonaros election and the EU's desire for some productive news sealed it.

On a completely unrelated note, Brazil plays Argentina in the Copa America semi finals tomorrow in Brazil. The running joke is that Argentina could win such a match only if on that very day the sun were to vanish from the sky... :spin:
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
User avatar
F737NG
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:48 am

Derico wrote:
Well I won't get into the free trade debate but to allay the fears of the OP there won't be any mass choppage of rain forest in Argentina, a latitude map can explain why, and also no mass relocation of factories. Argentina is no Vietnam or Pakistan or Central America on the wage scale, and add on top the onerous labor business and labor regulations, plus High inflation still, there is little if any competitive edge at this time.

Argentine wine maybe adversely affected as now heavily subsidized European wine will be a lot more competitive in the intern market. Biodiesel is another question mark. Seamless steel and energy machinery production is also a thing to watch since actually some far Eastern European Union countries have lower wages than in the industrial regions of Argentina.


alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Thank you for a real (and a sane) analysis. It is obvious that someone who claims to be "aware" of aviation doesn't have a clue about world trade...



Oh dear, perhaps instead of trying to prove someone wrong, you would do better to read what's actually happening.
OP didn't say anything about 'Argentinian rainforests', instead said:

increasing the market for South American beef. This will cause much more rainforest being hewn down to provide farmland


which when reading this quote,
The single biggest reason to fell trees, according to official figures, is to create new pastures for cattle, and during our visit we saw countless herds grazing on land that used to be rainforest.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48827490

validates the original premise.




For Mercosur, the deal eliminates tariffs on 93 per cent of exports to the EU and grants “preferential treatment” for the remaining 7 per cent. Negotiators said that one of the biggest prizes for the South American bloc was increased access to the European market for agricultural goods — notably for beef, poultry, sugar and ethanol. Brazilians expect tariffs on orange juice, instant coffee and fruits to be zeroed, which would be “a huge victory for the agribusiness sector”, said André Perfeito, economist at broker Spinelli in São Paulo. 

For the EU, the biggest gain is a vastly improved export environment for its companies, which will now have an advantage over other parts of the world that still face Mercosur’s traditionally high tariffs and other trade barriers. The agreement will ultimately remove duties on 91 per cent of goods that EU companies export to Mercosur.

Some of the most important wins for Europe include the slashing of duties on cars and car parts, chemicals, machinery and textiles, and improved market access for EU wine and cheese.

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/a564ca96-99e7-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229


Much lauded, long-term environmental and food security protections for EU consumers thrown out of the proverbial window to try help a weakening German manufacturing sector help keep Germany in the short-term out of a recession that would have serious knock-on effects on the wider EU economy.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/28/a-recession-in-germany-could-mean-economic-damage-for-these-countries.html


The Commission's negotiating team could have and should have fought harder to obligate Mercosur nations to protect their environment with the threat of punitive actions. Instead the agreement states that there could be "a new forum to work closely together on a more sustainable approach to agriculture" and "the EU and Mercosur are also committed to effectively implement the Paris Agreement on Climate Change" - instead we're left with weak, reactionary gestures.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: fr8mech, N1611B, TheF15Ace, Tugger and 37 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos