anrec80
Posts: 1800
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:20 am

c933103 wrote:
What about Kim's family becoming some sort of royal family and the parliament can continue to be elected by people, under supervision by the state? That seems more likely


They are having elections in North Korea even now. Vast majority is held by Workers’ Party of Korea of course, but then there is a party called Social Democratic Party. The most important thing is - who actually moves the candidates into the parliament, and whom they report to later, who controls their actions. And that is up to elite groups. It’s even the case in some “democratic” states - say, oligarchic states have elected MPs just on payroll of oligarchic groups, and decisions the Parliament makes are simply are agreements between those groups.

Yes, officially people elect, but whom they elect is of secondary importance - the job of those elected is simply to put on paper the decisions made elsewhere.
 
BN747
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:50 am

johnboy wrote:
Pity he didn’t try to nab a banner while he was over there. Im sure it would’ve made a great souvenir.


Now, you speak up....

..had you suggested that a week earlier and tweeted on Fox News, maybe they would have repeated it on broadcast - perhaps he would have taken it and pulled an Otto Warmbier and hauled off..

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:36 am

Here’s a good primer on how the right argues we should handle North Korea, and by argue I mean be simultaneously pro and anti appeasement of dictators. It’s a fun way to see the total and complete mental breakdown of the right:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/BzbKhFAnjm ... v2tpi3ap3a
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BN747
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:01 am

bald face LiE
MaverickM11 wrote:
Here’s a good primer on how the right argues we should handle North Korea, and by argue I mean be simultaneously pro and anti appeasement of dictators. It’s a fun way to see the total and complete mental breakdown of the right:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/BzbKhFAnjm ... v2tpi3ap3a


Man!..at 1:25 in Judge Jeanine Pirro provided the 1st ever visual of a human being physically contorting itself (and unwillingly so) to force an known truth to submit completely to a bald face lie - and absorb it.

Don't Vote Racist
BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
c933103
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What about Kim's family becoming some sort of royal family and the parliament can continue to be elected by people, under supervision by the state? That seems more likely


They are having elections in North Korea even now. Vast majority is held by Workers’ Party of Korea of course, but then there is a party called Social Democratic Party. The most important thing is - who actually moves the candidates into the parliament, and whom they report to later, who controls their actions. And that is up to elite groups. It’s even the case in some “democratic” states - say, oligarchic states have elected MPs just on payroll of oligarchic groups, and decisions the Parliament makes are simply are agreements between those groups.

Yes, officially people elect, but whom they elect is of secondary importance - the job of those elected is simply to put on paper the decisions made elsewhere.

The point is it is not impossible for an unified Korea with South Korea included to adopt a similar system.
This is a placeholder.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
The point is it is not impossible for an unified Korea with South Korea included to adopt a similar system.


Well - if North Korean elite groups win over South Korean elite groups (and that’s more than possible) - nobody will ask South Korea, and there will be nobody left to protect.
 
c933103
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:11 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The point is it is not impossible for an unified Korea with South Korea included to adopt a similar system.


Well - if North Korean elite groups win over South Korean elite groups (and that’s more than possible) - nobody will ask South Korea, and there will be nobody left to protect.

I mean it is also possible to have a scenario where South Korea willingly adopt elements of North Korean system and allowed members of North Korean government to rule the country, despite slightly less than what the North Korean government might have been doing in their territory now.
This is a placeholder.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:41 pm

c933103 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The point is it is not impossible for an unified Korea with South Korea included to adopt a similar system.

Well - if North Korean elite groups win over South Korean elite groups (and that’s more than possible) - nobody will ask South Korea, and there will be nobody left to protect.

I mean it is also possible to have a scenario where South Korea willingly adopt elements of North Korean system and allowed members of North Korean government to rule the country, despite slightly less than what the North Korean government might have been doing in their territory now.


Anyone who thinks a highly successful nation like South Korea would adopt policies from a total failure like North Korea is living in a fantasy world - or in St. Petersburg...

:roll:
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anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Anyone who thinks a highly successful nation like South Korea would adopt policies from a total failure like North Korea is living in a fantasy world - or in St. Petersburg...

:roll:


The most prominent examples of total failures - Eastern European “new democracies” (good half of those), with completely absent sovereignty, citizens fleeing en-masse and lack of any future whatsoever. NK is far from such. For a 20 million country, a nuclear and a ballistic programs alone are accomplishments to be proud of. They certainly must be doing great in science and education areas at least. They are one of very few who can talk to USA (or anyone else) as equal, and whose interests USA actually do consider. Neither EU as a whole, nor any European country belongs to this group. South Korea isn’t there either.

South Korean elites have been under American umbrella for too long, and may not even know what a sovereign state is and how to run it. Unlike their northern neighbors.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
I mean it is also possible to have a scenario where South Korea willingly adopt elements of North Korean system and allowed members of North Korean government to rule the country, despite slightly less than what the North Korean government might have been doing in their territory now.


In such situation, the very sentence “South Korea allows” will become an oxymoron. If you want to allow or disallow something - someone needs to ask you first, right?
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
They are one of very few who can talk to USA (or anyone else) as equal, and whose interests USA actually do consider. Neither EU as a whole, nor any European country belongs to this group. South Korea isn’t there either.


North Korea does not - and cannot - talk to the USA "as an equal". They may talk to Trump - he does seem to have an obsessive fascination for unsavory dictators (witness: North Korea's Kim... Russia's LiliPutin... and Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman...) who give him gold medallions or flatter him with perfidious praise, all the while laughing at him behind his back. The USA, though - i.e., anybody other than the narcissist-in-chief - has no such misunderstandings.

Like so many other comments on this thread, such a claim could come only from someone living in an alternate reality... or in Saint Petersburg....

:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
c933103
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I mean it is also possible to have a scenario where South Korea willingly adopt elements of North Korean system and allowed members of North Korean government to rule the country, despite slightly less than what the North Korean government might have been doing in their territory now.


In such situation, the very sentence “South Korea allows” will become an oxymoron. If you want to allow or disallow something - someone needs to ask you first, right?

It is not impossible for North Korea to present such sort of question to South Korea and get some sort of affirmative answer, especially if they played the ethnic card right and show a path with positive illusion forward.
This is a placeholder.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:37 pm

c933103 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I mean it is also possible to have a scenario where South Korea willingly adopt elements of North Korean system and allowed members of North Korean government to rule the country, despite slightly less than what the North Korean government might have been doing in their territory now.

In such situation, the very sentence “South Korea allows” will become an oxymoron. If you want to allow or disallow something - someone needs to ask you first, right?

It is not impossible for North Korea to present such sort of question to South Korea and get some sort of affirmative answer, especially if they played the ethnic card right and show a path with positive illusion forward.


The only credible part of that contention is the word "illusion" - because that is exactly what that belief is.

:roll:
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johnboy
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Anyone who thinks a highly successful nation like South Korea would adopt policies from a total failure like North Korea is living in a fantasy world - or in St. Petersburg...

:roll:


The most prominent examples of total failures - Eastern European “new democracies” (good half of those), with completely absent sovereignty, citizens fleeing en-masse and lack of any future whatsoever. NK is far from such. For a 20 million country, a nuclear and a ballistic programs alone are accomplishments to be proud of. They certainly must be doing great in science and education areas at least. They are one of very few who can talk to USA (or anyone else) as equal, and whose interests USA actually do consider. Neither EU as a whole, nor any European country belongs to this group. South Korea isn’t there either.

South Korean elites have been under American umbrella for too long, and may not even know what a sovereign state is and how to run it. Unlike their northern neighbors.



Pay attention to this one very carefully folks. This is textbook propaganda here. And not very well hidden at all.
 
910A
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:52 am

US 'hell-bent' on hostility despite talks, North Korea says

North Korea has accused the US of being "hell-bent on hostile acts", despite a recent agreement between the two countries to resume nuclear talks.
Pyongyang's delegation to the United Nations said on Wednesday that the US was "obsessed with sanctions".
It also accused Washington of attempting to "undermine the peaceful atmosphere" on the Korean peninsular.


Once again Trump isn't winning except for photo ops.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48863401
 
c933103
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:24 am

910A wrote:
US 'hell-bent' on hostility despite talks, North Korea says

North Korea has accused the US of being "hell-bent on hostile acts", despite a recent agreement between the two countries to resume nuclear talks.
Pyongyang's delegation to the United Nations said on Wednesday that the US was "obsessed with sanctions".
It also accused Washington of attempting to "undermine the peaceful atmosphere" on the Korean peninsular.


Once again Trump isn't winning except for photo ops.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48863401

I think that is just regular part of North Korea propaganda material. The negotiation have not even officially resumed yet. Surely North Korea want America lower sanction before anything have been achieved, but the key thing here is what will they do even if their such desire isn't being satisfied.
This is a placeholder.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:02 am

johnboy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Anyone who thinks a highly successful nation like South Korea would adopt policies from a total failure like North Korea is living in a fantasy world - or in St. Petersburg...

:roll:


The most prominent examples of total failures - Eastern European “new democracies” (good half of those), with completely absent sovereignty, citizens fleeing en-masse and lack of any future whatsoever. NK is far from such. For a 20 million country, a nuclear and a ballistic programs alone are accomplishments to be proud of. They certainly must be doing great in science and education areas at least. They are one of very few who can talk to USA (or anyone else) as equal, and whose interests USA actually do consider. Neither EU as a whole, nor any European country belongs to this group. South Korea isn’t there either.

South Korean elites have been under American umbrella for too long, and may not even know what a sovereign state is and how to run it. Unlike their northern neighbors.



Pay attention to this one very carefully folks. This is textbook propaganda here. And not very well hidden at all.

Oooooh-wheee that is some coo-coo cachu nonsense. But even a broken clock is right twice a day; Trump has managed to turn the North Korean regime into one that "can talk to [the] USA as equal" now. In fact North Korea has a far better relationship with Trump than most of our allies. Bravo republicans.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
tu204
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:55 pm

I don't get all the dudes on here smashing Trump about opening a dialogue with the DPRK and at least making an effort to tone down the situation on the Korean peninsula. I don't see how through dialogue the situation can escalate any further. However keeping up ignoring them, not engaging in dialogue and keeping up the threats towards them on the other hand will undoubtably bring an escalation. Afterall the only insurance policy they have against getting invaded is a WMD program that in that scenario would be in their best interests to expedite. As recent history has shown (Yugoslvia, Libya, Iraq) the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent (Iran, DPRK)...

So what negative consequences can the U.S. expect from growing up and talking to the guys? The previous approach failed, so keeping the previous approach obviously isn't the solution. If you guys want a solution that is...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:47 pm

tu204 wrote:
Afterall the only insurance policy they have against getting invaded is a WMD program that in that scenario would be in their best interests to expedite. As recent history has shown (Yugoslvia, Libya, Iraq) the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent (Iran, DPRK)...


Let's not rewrite history here: the invasion of Iraq was predicated precisely on the belief that they had WMD's; the current administrations sabre-rattling towards Iran is based on the proposition that they are developing the same. The claim that "the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent" is simply not based on fact.

In truth, what is saving North Korea isn't the presence of weapons; it is that country's ability to kiss-up to the shallowness of Tramp's ego. Trump's “impromptu” meeting with Kim was a photo op for him, but the attention he is giving NK's dictator as a boon for that normally-isolated-by-any-civilized-country administration - although the roughly 120,000 political prisoners North Korean prison camps probably aren't so impressed.

The Trump administration’s sometime goal of “rapid denuclearization of North Korea, to be completed by January 2021” will not be met, but this seems not to matter. The spectacle of chummy strongmanship was what mattered.

One small step for Trump's ego; one giant leap for Kim's aims.
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tu204
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:48 pm

alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Afterall the only insurance policy they have against getting invaded is a WMD program that in that scenario would be in their best interests to expedite. As recent history has shown (Yugoslvia, Libya, Iraq) the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent (Iran, DPRK)...


Let's not rewrite history here: the invasion of Iraq was predicated precisely on the belief that they had WMD's; the current administrations sabre-rattling towards Iran is based on the proposition that they are developing the same. The claim that "the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent" is simply not based on fact.

In truth, what is saving North Korea isn't the presence of weapons; it is that country's ability to kiss-up to the shallowness of Tramp's ego. Trump's “impromptu” meeting with Kim was a photo op for him, but the attention he is giving NK's dictator as a boon for that normally-isolated-by-any-civilized-country administration - although the roughly 120,000 political prisoners North Korean prison camps probably aren't so impressed.



1) Hell knows why there was an invasion of Iraq. I don't buy it that the US intelligence services are that incompetent. Even if they are and they believe their own BS, they probably had the good intel that they didn't have any good delivery method to hit any allies with them and a demoralised Iraqi army they could have for breakfast.

2) I don't see how DPRK kissing up to Trump plays any role. I don't see them kissing up at all really. I see some attempt by both sides to try to be polite and make some progress. But let me humour you and they are kissing up. They weren't kissing up to Obama and Bush before him, so I don't agree with your argument in general. Fact is, they have the means and the will, be it with conventional or WMD means to wreak havoc on the South and US interests and servicemen there before the retaliation that wipes them out.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
jordanh
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:52 pm

tu204 wrote:
I don't see how DPRK kissing up to Trump plays any role. I don't see them kissing up at all really.


The whole world sees it, but you don't see it. Obviously, you are blind - or Russian - or a troll. Or all three.
 
Magog
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:03 pm

jordanh wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I don't see how DPRK kissing up to Trump plays any role. I don't see them kissing up at all really.


The whole world sees it, but you don't see it. Obviously, you are blind - or Russian - or a troll. Or all three.

That’s not a substantive response. Why don’t you throw in some relevant facts?

A whole lot less missile and bomb testing has occurred since Trump has engaged North Korea. I hate Trump, but I’m a big fan of peace.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 pm

Magog wrote:
jordanh wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I don't see how DPRK kissing up to Trump plays any role. I don't see them kissing up at all really.

The whole world sees it, but you don't see it. Obviously, you are blind - or Russian - or a troll. Or all three.

That’s not a substantive response. Why don’t you throw in some relevant facts?
A whole lot less missile and bomb testing has occurred since Trump has engaged North Korea. I hate Trump, but I’m a big fan of peace.


And yours is not a substantive response; why don't you throw in some relevant facts?

:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
Magog
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:18 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
jordanh wrote:
The whole world sees it, but you don't see it. Obviously, you are blind - or Russian - or a troll. Or all three.

That’s not a substantive response. Why don’t you throw in some relevant facts?
A whole lot less missile and bomb testing has occurred since Trump has engaged North Korea. I hate Trump, but I’m a big fan of peace.


And yours is not a substantive response; why don't you throw in some relevant facts?

:roll:

Ah... I did. The fact that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing. Do you join me in saying that this is a good thing? If not, why is it bad?
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 pm

Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
That’s not a substantive response. Why don’t you throw in some relevant facts?
A whole lot less missile and bomb testing has occurred since Trump has engaged North Korea. I hate Trump, but I’m a big fan of peace.


And yours is not a substantive response; why don't you throw in some relevant facts?

:roll:

Ah... I did. The fact that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing. Do you join me in saying that this is a good thing? If not, why is it bad?


If you intend to make that claim, you need to back it up with facts. In truth, the facts disagree:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... 560324758/

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron
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Magog
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:43 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

And yours is not a substantive response; why don't you throw in some relevant facts?

:roll:

Ah... I did. The fact that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing. Do you join me in saying that this is a good thing? If not, why is it bad?


If you intend to make that claim, you need to back it up with facts. In truth, the facts disagree:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... 560324758/

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron

Both of those sources back up my claim that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing since Trump has engaged North Korea. Do you think that’s a bad thing?
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:51 pm

Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Ah... I did. The fact that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing. Do you join me in saying that this is a good thing? If not, why is it bad?


If you intend to make that claim, you need to back it up with facts. In truth, the facts disagree:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... 560324758/

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron

Both of those sources back up my claim that North Korea is engaging in less bomb and missile testing since Trump has engaged North Korea. Do you think that’s a bad thing?


Can you actually read... or are you just blathering again.

"North Korea also resumed missile launches last month for the first time since late 2017. A report released by the U.S. Congressional Research Service last week concluded that the three projectiles fired on May 4 and May 9 were short-range ballistic missiles."

In some areas there maybe less testing, because less testing is needed; they are now producing those warheads at a faster rate than ever before:

"Based on data collected by governments and analysts from around the world, the research center estimated North Korea's arsenal at 20-30 warheads, up from 10-20 warheads at the same time last year."

And yes, I think that is a very bad thing.
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Magog
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Yup. I can read. There has been less testing. And not a single long rage missile! Don’t you agree that this is a good thing? Or do you want more testing?
 
jordanh
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:24 pm

Magog wrote:
Yup. I can read. There has been less testing. And not a single long rage missile! Don’t you agree that this is a good thing? Or do you want more testing?


Do you just come here to start arguments? You make no sense? he already showed you they don't need to test so much, because they are actually making more missiles.

If you say you can read, then maybe you can't think.
 
Magog
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:27 pm

jordanh wrote:
Magog wrote:
Yup. I can read. There has been less testing. And not a single long rage missile! Don’t you agree that this is a good thing? Or do you want more testing?


Do you just come here to start arguments? You make no sense? he already showed you they don't need to test so much, because they are actually making more missiles.

If you say you can read, then maybe you can't think.

Their missiles suck. Less testing is very good news.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 am

Magog wrote:
jordanh wrote:
Magog wrote:
Yup. I can read. There has been less testing. And not a single long rage missile! Don’t you agree that this is a good thing? Or do you want more testing?


Do you just come here to start arguments? You make no sense? he already showed you they don't need to test so much, because they are actually making more missiles.

If you say you can read, then maybe you can't think.

Their missiles suck. Less testing is very good news.


Perhaps you cannot comprehend what you read: there can be less testing because they have already perfected those weapons. If you think "their missiles suck", then provide some data to show that. Prove it.

Less conjecture = more respect.

See... 2+2 really does = 4...

:roll:
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anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:21 am

alfa164 wrote:
Let's not rewrite history here: the invasion of Iraq was predicated precisely on the belief that they had WMD's; the current administrations sabre-rattling towards Iran is based on the proposition that they are developing the same. The claim that "the west will not attack anyone that can at least fight back to some extent" is simply not based on fact.


The invasion of Iraq happened over just one reason: the USA decided that they can without any fighting back. Kim showed the opposite - when the aircraft carriers were en-route to Korean peninsula, Kim launched missiles capable of reaching Guam and then Seattle. What did Trump do? First, "not three carriers, but two", then "they were going not to North Korea, but to South one", and at last "he was misunderstood". Worked like a charm.

alfa164 wrote:
In truth, what is saving North Korea isn't the presence of weapons; it is that country's ability to kiss-up to the shallowness of Tramp's ego.


See above - quite the opposite is true.

alfa164 wrote:
The Trump administration’s sometime goal of “rapid denuclearization of North Korea, to be completed by January 2021” will not be met, but this seems not to matter.


You are right here - not likely to happen.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:15 pm

Magog wrote:
Their missiles suck. Less testing is very good news.


What if they do not suck? Minus Seattle and San Francisco?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:32 pm

I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.


Where do you see Russian invasion? Nobody has ever shown anyone any “invader” in Donbass. And Crimea - now there is an investigation in Ukraine as to why post-coup leadership hasn’t done anything and hasn’t issues any orders to prevent it, basically giving the peninsula away. And the truth of life is - if one guy gives something to the other guy - the latter is in full rights to take it.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.

Where do you see Russian invasion? Nobody has ever shown anyone any “invader” in Donbass. And Crimea - now there is an investigation in Ukraine as to why post-coup leadership hasn’t done anything and hasn’t issues any orders to prevent it, basically giving the peninsula away. And the truth of life is - if one guy gives something to the other guy - the latter is in full rights to take it.


In truth, it was Russia who gave Crimea to Ukraine - then wrenched it back with a military invasion and rigged a pseudo-plebiscite.. Of course, that isn't in the scripts at the Russian troll farms...

:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
tu204
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:16 pm

Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.


Yeah, cause there was no invasion.

What there was is support for the locals located in Eastern Ukraine that didn't appreciate the overthrow of the government that they supported, an illegal overthrow that was supported by the short sightedness of the west.

Had the west not interfered and fueled that fire, there would be no civil war in Ukraine. Pretty sure there isn't much chance in the near future of those regions falling back into place because of the shellings of their people and cities that took place. Not Russia's fault. Well could be partially. Incited by west, carried on by Russia and taken to the extreme by the Junta in Kiev.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:18 pm

alfa164 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.

Where do you see Russian invasion? Nobody has ever shown anyone any “invader” in Donbass. And Crimea - now there is an investigation in Ukraine as to why post-coup leadership hasn’t done anything and hasn’t issues any orders to prevent it, basically giving the peninsula away. And the truth of life is - if one guy gives something to the other guy - the latter is in full rights to take it.


In truth, it was Russia who gave Crimea to Ukraine - then wrenched it back with a military invasion and rigged a pseudo-plebiscite.. Of course, that isn't in the scripts at the Russian troll farms...

:roll:


Well if you're talking Crimea, partially so. Same as above, but instead of moral and political support for the locals, we threw in some forces. And the end result as we see was much better for those said locals :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:16 pm

tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.


Yeah, cause there was no invasion. What there was is support for the locals located in Eastern Ukraine that didn't appreciate the overthrow of the government that they supported, an illegal overthrow that was supported by the short sightedness of the west. Had the west not interfered and fueled that fire, there would be no civil war in Ukraine. Pretty sure there isn't much chance in the near future of those regions falling back into place because of the shellings of their people and cities that took place. Not Russia's fault. Well could be partially. Incited by west, carried on by Russia and taken to the extreme by the Junta in Kiev.



Once again, you seek to rewrite history here, parroting the Kremlin line (what a surprise!). There was no "overthrow" of the government; Yanukovych was impeached by his own parliament.

Yanukovych had first promised to establish closer relations with the European Union and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society. Yanukovych first accepted the contingencies as fair but ultimately refused to sign the agreement.Then Yanukovych signed a treaty and multi-billion dollar loan with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes as law enforcement troops cracked down on protesters.. Yanukovych fled the country into the open arms of Russia and has never returned. I am sure there are some people in Ukraine who still might support him, but it is Russia's meddling - not any native Ukraine support - that has caused the current conflict.

And that, my Russian friend comrade, was totally Russia's doing.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:54 pm

alfa164 wrote:
In truth, it was Russia who gave Crimea to Ukraine - then wrenched it back with a military invasion and rigged a pseudo-plebiscite.. Of course, that isn't in the scripts at the Russian troll farms...

:roll:


95% in favor - isn’t a “pseudo-plebiscite”. Crimean people expressed their will clearly. And Russian officers just helped make their will a reality without any bloodshed.
 
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DL717
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:05 am

mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
North Korea has no existence or need to exist outside of being North Korea. Trump has nothing to offer them, and they will offer nothing in return other than to use the meetings as propaganda to further prop up the Kim Regime.


Hmm, if that is true, explain this...

Barack Obama Warns Donald Trump on North Korea Threat - WSJ
Search domain http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-faces ... 1479855286
White House says new president's top foreign priority should be nuclear Pyongyang. The Obama administration considers North Korea to be the top national security priority for the incoming administration, a view it has conveyed to President-elect Donald Trump's transition team, according to people familiar with the conversations.

I really don't have a dog in this hunt, I only know previous approaches obviously failed, but the sheer ignorance expressed by the obsessed Trump-haters is sometimes just too tempting for any moderate contrarian..


Trump could die on a cross, be buried, rise again on the third day, save all of our souls and they’d try to put him back up on the cross. It’s so pathetic at this point that it’s just sad. I hope they roll with it into the election cycle. I want more crying.
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alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:09 am

anrec80 wrote:
And Russian officers just helped make their will a reality without any bloodshed.


Yes, those helpful Russian officers - whom Russia previously claimed were nowhere near Crimea.... "You must vote as we want, comrade, or there will be blood..."

DL717 wrote:
Trump could die on a cross, be buried, rise again on the third day, save all of our souls and they’d try to put him back up on the cross. It’s so pathetic at this point that it’s just sad. I hope they roll with it into the election cycle. I want more crying.


So now Trump represents the "second coming"? That only shows how deranged the Trumppuppets really are...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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DL717
Posts: 1473
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:24 am

alfa164 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
And Russian officers just helped make their will a reality without any bloodshed.


Yes, those helpful Russian officers - whom Russia previously claimed were nowhere near Crimea.... "You must vote as we want, comrade, or there will be blood..."

DL717 wrote:
Trump could die on a cross, be buried, rise again on the third day, save all of our souls and they’d try to put him back up on the cross. It’s so pathetic at this point that it’s just sad. I hope they roll with it into the election cycle. I want more crying.


So now Trump represents the "second coming"? That only shows how deranged the Trumppuppets really are...

:roll:


I guess you didn’t read it then. TDS alive and well.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tu204
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:46 am

alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I see that tu204 conveniently omitted the Russian invasion of denuclearized Ukraine from his examples.


Yeah, cause there was no invasion. What there was is support for the locals located in Eastern Ukraine that didn't appreciate the overthrow of the government that they supported, an illegal overthrow that was supported by the short sightedness of the west. Had the west not interfered and fueled that fire, there would be no civil war in Ukraine. Pretty sure there isn't much chance in the near future of those regions falling back into place because of the shellings of their people and cities that took place. Not Russia's fault. Well could be partially. Incited by west, carried on by Russia and taken to the extreme by the Junta in Kiev.



Once again, you seek to rewrite history here, parroting the Kremlin line (what a surprise!). There was no "overthrow" of the government; Yanukovych was impeached by his own parliament.

Yanukovych had first promised to establish closer relations with the European Union and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society. Yanukovych first accepted the contingencies as fair but ultimately refused to sign the agreement.Then Yanukovych signed a treaty and multi-billion dollar loan with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes as law enforcement troops cracked down on protesters.. Yanukovych fled the country into the open arms of Russia and has never returned. I am sure there are some people in Ukraine who still might support him, but it is Russia's meddling - not any native Ukraine support - that has caused the current conflict.

And that, my Russian friend comrade, was totally Russia's doing.


Lalala. And your line of rewriting history, ignoring simple law and then looking for lame excuses for the blatant disregard of any logic by those that illegally took power is getting repetatively annoying.

1) There was no impeachment according to the constitution.

2) The nationalists that took power decided that the whole country should be onboard is shortsighted.

3) Using deadly force against citizens of Ukraine, that did not agree with the illegal takeover of power is just blatantly stupid and just that action there will probably leave the country divided for YEARS. The fact that they don't try to reconcile will keep those seperatist regions out from the control of Kiev for DECADES.

The fact that people in the west, like yourself keep you dilusional views that you posted above will keep moving back that date where it may be POSSIBLE that Ukraine (minus Crimea) live together as one country again.

Sad. You guys along with the apes in Kiev are doing more to split Ukraine than Russia ever could.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:53 am

tu204 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Yeah, cause there was no invasion. What there was is support for the locals located in Eastern Ukraine that didn't appreciate the overthrow of the government that they supported, an illegal overthrow that was supported by the short sightedness of the west. Had the west not interfered and fueled that fire, there would be no civil war in Ukraine. Pretty sure there isn't much chance in the near future of those regions falling back into place because of the shellings of their people and cities that took place. Not Russia's fault. Well could be partially. Incited by west, carried on by Russia and taken to the extreme by the Junta in Kiev.



Once again, you seek to rewrite history here, parroting the Kremlin line (what a surprise!). There was no "overthrow" of the government; Yanukovych was impeached by his own parliament.

Yanukovych had first promised to establish closer relations with the European Union and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society. Yanukovych first accepted the contingencies as fair but ultimately refused to sign the agreement.Then Yanukovych signed a treaty and multi-billion dollar loan with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes as law enforcement troops cracked down on protesters.. Yanukovych fled the country into the open arms of Russia and has never returned. I am sure there are some people in Ukraine who still might support him, but it is Russia's meddling - not any native Ukraine support - that has caused the current conflict.

And that, my Russian friend comrade, was totally Russia's doing.


Lalala. And your line of rewriting history, ignoring simple law and then looking for lame excuses for the blatant disregard of any logic by those that illegally took power is getting repetatively annoying.
1) There was no impeachment according to the constitution.
2) The nationalists that took power decided that the whole country should be onboard is shortsighted.
3) Using deadly force against citizens of Ukraine, that did not agree with the illegal takeover of power is just blatantly stupid and just that action there will probably leave the country divided for YEARS. The fact that they don't try to reconcile will keep those seperatist regions out from the control of Kiev for DECADES.
The fact that people in the west, like yourself keep you dilusional views that you posted above will keep moving back that date where it may be POSSIBLE that Ukraine (minus Crimea) live together as one country again.
Sad. You guys along with the apes in Kiev are doing more to split Ukraine than Russia ever could.


There is the Russian line of propaganda again. :roll:

No worries.... the Russian economy is in the dumps so far that everybody at the Saint Petersburg troll factory will be losing their jobs soon...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Re: Trump Enters North Korea

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:45 am

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