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tommy1808
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:27 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I enjoy the fact that Trump tries openly to manipulate the dollar with his pressures on the fed but complain when China just does it.

The mantra with Republicans is that it's OK if the US does it (or someone the US approves of); it's not OK if someone else does.


And China is probably laughing its ass off, as Trumps trade ware helped a lot to increase Yuan held as currency reserve by 50% since he started it:

http://data.imf.org/?sk=E6A5F467-C14B-4 ... 09EC4E62A4

Probably just peachy for their strategic goals....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:30 pm

Well, fasten your seatbelts because if you thought it was bumpy now, it's about to get even bumpier.

For the first time since June 2007, the 2yr yield is higher than the 10yr yield (i.e. the yield curve has inverted). Economists and experts have agreed that this is a reliable indicator of a recession heading our way (since 1978, all yield curve inversions of the 2yr vs 10yr preceded a recession) so if the latest slowdown signs weren't enough, this will surely be the defining sign. The last time the yield curve inverted was in December 2005, several months before the Great Recession took hold. In the meantime, the stock market could reap a few more rallies before the slowdown/recession begins to materialize.

As of the time of writing, DJIA futures were down 400pts.

Let's see how long the yield curve remains inverted and how deep it does; the longer and deeper the inversion, the more certain the recession (and potentially devastating).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I enjoy the fact that Trump tries openly to manipulate the dollar with his pressures on the fed but complain when China just does it.

The mantra with Republicans is that it's OK if the US does it (or someone the US approves of); it's not OK if someone else does.


And China is probably laughing its ass off, as Trumps trade ware helped a lot to increase Yuan held as currency reserve by 50% since he started it:

http://data.imf.org/?sk=E6A5F467-C14B-4 ... 09EC4E62A4

Probably just peachy for their strategic goals....

best regards
Thomas


You betcha - except 45 wouldn’t understand what you posted without a color-coded large-font chart.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:41 pm

As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Today's move was the 4th largest loss for the DJIA in its history, and it was the worst day for the year.

I'm guessing tomorrow there will be a rebound, especially if the yield curve keeps flat but not inverted, and people try to buy a few things while more signs materialize, but wouldn't be surprised for another big drop.

All part of how we Make America Great Again!
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:07 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Today's move was the 4th largest loss for the DJIA in its history, and it was the worst day for the year.


While in absolute number it's 4th largest loss, a 3.05% drop is not THAT bad relatively, and not bad at all compare to the 1000+ pts drop in 2018 (Which correspond to ~4-4.5% drop).

The stock market is definitely back to being roller coaster, though.
 
Murf
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:40 am

Daily treasury statements are showing a slowdown in spending...This may not bounce much...There's a lot of negative sentiment right now... The S&P futures low of 2775 or slightly lower is where I MIGHT be a buyer but not without protection and ONLY if fiscal flows re accelerate.

Murf
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:42 am

I've somewhat moved to cash a couple weeks ago, waiting to see what's going on here and for new opportunities on the precious metals side.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:20 pm

I don't have a lot of money in my Roth IRA, but I do have a handful of stocks. I'm thinking about cashing out and moving to mutual funds (or keeping the liquidity in place). There are some stocks that have skyrocketed (Roku, Visa, Apple) that I think would do well and would take a massive downturn to make them have negative value for me (I bought rather low) so those are safe investments.

My 401k, HSA, and general investments are in mutual funds and I can always adjust the portfolio to adopt a more conservative position to limit losses. Breaking point for me would be the DJIA dropping below the level from when Trump took office.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.



If the market dropping 800pts is Trump’s fault, the 8,000pt climb since he was elected must be “his fault” too...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Aaron747
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:46 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.



If the market dropping 800pts is Trump’s fault, the 8,000pt climb since he was elected must be “his fault” too...


The DJIA matters far less in the overall economy than wages vs. COL growth and overall annualized GDP. And for added fun, on the Lorenz plot, the US GINI coefficient has continued its steady upward climb it resumed in 2014 after a post-Lehman lull.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:11 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
If the market dropping 800pts is Trump’s fault, the 8,000pt climb since he was elected must be “his fault” too...

That seems fair...except part of that 8k point climb was only due to expectations after his election, but was still under Obama's watch. I'm willing to be generous enough to say that Trump's stock market climb is his from Jan 20, 2017 onward...you know...when he finally had the power to influence the market (still believe that until his policies actually kicked in, the market was simply going on from Obama's climb but I'll meet you halfway).

But how funny is it that if the market has a good day he needs to get all the credit, but if it has a bad day (either because of bad data elsewhere or due to HIS policies: trade war, saber-rattling with Iran, etc.) it's someone else's fault. I'm surprised they haven't come up with a conspiracy to say that yesterday's decline was either Obama's fault, or Clinton's, or Democrats'...he already blamed the Fed Chief HE chose (thank goodness he only hires the best people) so there's that.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
wingman
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:48 pm

Trump's time isn't over. We'll be able to mark his 4 year "Dow" record vs. Obama's first 4 and every other president's first 4 on Nov. 4 2020. And then the 8 year record should he resume office. Right now all signs are pointing to a major crapping of the economic bed and it'll be very difficult for Trump and the GOP to blame anyone but themselves knowing they've been in full control of all government branches for the first half of the term and 3/4s for the second half. And one must always put Obama's performance in the proper context of having inherited the worst GOP crapping of the economic bed since 1929. Obama handed Trump a silver platter as exquisite as the one Fred handed him as a child. The platter Bush Jr and Dick "deficits don't matter" Cheney handed Obama was a hot steaming pile of recessive dookie. No two ways about it, Fat Lady got 15 more months before she sing.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:33 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.



If the market dropping 800pts is Trump’s fault, the 8,000pt climb since he was elected must be “his fault” too...

No , Even Trump said it, it was all Obama's fault. Remember Trump had to "cut" taxes to get his 800 point drop.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
dmg626
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.


And the Dow hits a record today, good to see positive news
 
tommy1808
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:45 pm

dmg626 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.


And the Dow hits a record today, good to see positive news


yeah, nice to see how positive the Economy reacts to formalizing the impeachment inquiry. almost +3% since Pelosi announced it and a clear uptick since the vote to proceed.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:32 pm

And yet here we are and Trump is still performing worse than Obama.

https://fortune.com/2019/11/01/trump-ob ... q-economy/
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
dmg626
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
As we watch the DOW plummet again, let's see a reminder of Trump vs Obama's Stock performance through the first 645 days .

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/investin ... index.html

Hmmmm
Obama +46%
Trump +29%

Looks like Trump is not getting that growth he hoped for.


And the Dow hits a record today, good to see positive news


yeah, nice to see how positive the Economy reacts to formalizing the impeachment inquiry. almost +3% since Pelosi announced it and a clear uptick since the vote to proceed.

best regards
Thomas



Haha, that’s a good one.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
And yet here we are and Trump is still performing worse than Obama.

https://fortune.com/2019/11/01/trump-ob ... q-economy/

...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:16 pm

Morgan Stanley is predicting a dismal decade ahead regarding stocks. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/04/morgan- ... ecade.html
 
BN747
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:46 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
“The Dow Jones Industrial Average rallied to a record high on Thursday, led by UnitedHealth shares, after testimony by Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell that signaled easier monetary policy could be implemented later this month.

The 30-stock average broke above 27,000 for the first time in its history, before trading just below that level. The Dow was up 0.5%, or 132 points, around 9:50 a.m. ET.”

So much for all the leftist hyperbole about Trump crashing the economy if elected. Thank you President Trump for my 19% YTD rate of return.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/11/stock-m ... e-cut.html


You do know that 'the Leftist' pulled this economic boom from the Bush sewer, right?

Now imagine how well the market can do with someone with brains (aka intellect, knowledge and above average comprehension skills) were running things verses a fat bumbling idiot whose last thought is always that of the recent person in his ear.

Helluva an Economic foundation Prez. Obama!

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Morgan Stanley is predicting a dismal decade ahead regarding stocks. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/04/morgan- ... ecade.html


And should they be correct in their prediction...we all will know exactly who triggered it...turn on your tv, his likely to be on a news clip saying something beyond stupid as he does daily when not tweeting even the stupider....


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
apodino
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:11 pm

I find it amusing that people will look at the state of the economy and depending on their political view will either give credit or blame to the guy at the top. The fact is, aside from Tax policy, which requires cooperation from congress, and Fed Nominations, the president really has very little influence over the economy. And Tax policy is an oversimplification, but yet politicians run on this all the time and many voters who don't know jack about economics will buy it hook line and sinker. Here are some other things I will point out and then continue on this point.

1. Many people are quick to give Bill Clinton credit for the "surplus" during his years. If you take a closer look at other things during these years. The Republicans controlled congress for 6 of these years at the same time and any thing that Bill Clinton would have done to help the economy would have had to go through Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole first.

2. 9-11 happened, which is something that no politician can control. This slowed the economy for a bit for obvious reasons. One thing that Bush could control that he erred on was dealing with 9-11 by going to war with Iraq. This had other consequences which I will illustrate.

3. People forget how expensive Oil and Gas became toward the latter part of Bush's presidency. Part of this was due to the War causing some supply issues. But I think most of this was just pure greed and speculation on the part of Wall Street. In the grand scheme of things, a president really can't do a whole lot to address this without the help of congress. That being said, these people in congress need Wall Street to keep them in power. And sadly that will not change without a constitutional amendment, as the supreme court has made it clear the constitution does not allow campaign finance restrictions.

4. The Democrats took the House and the Senate back in 2006 after voters became frustrated with the endless wars that Bush was going to (at the influence of Cheney). The great recession happened two years later. I would love to see these charts about who is president with GDP changed to reflect which party controlled congress. Just saying.

5. One other issue that caused the recession was debt. Too many people were buying things on credit that couldn't afford them. They got too much into debt and the whole economy crashed, and financial giants collapsed. Things are getting too expensive, and its not healthy for long term success. I am really worried about this long term in places like San Francisco and New York, where things are so expensive no one can afford to live in these places anymore. This is not healthy. I hear a lot of talk about income inequality, which is a big issue. It seems to be worst in the biggest cities in the country, such as New York, Boston, LA, San Francisco, etc. And no one seems to be able to deal with this.

So where does that bring us today. I see some of the same issues from the past creeping up again. A society that is financed by large debt, Wall Street having too much influence over both political parties, unrest in key oil producing countries (Iran, Venezuela, etc), and income inequality. So how do we fix it? I don't think there is any legislative policy that will fix the issue as people will get around any legislative solution to protect their own assets. But what needs to happen? Here are some things.

1. Corporations need to stop with the stock buybacks and use that money instead to invest in their companies (Both their workforce and growth). If corporations had done this with the Tax Cuts this year, people would be much better off. Instead, as is well documented, Public companies have chosen to buy back stock instead of actually investing their money. I have looked into this, and in most cases the stock buybacks have done very little to affect the share price. So essentially what has happened is the CEOs have caused this money to disappear into thin air. They spin it as returning money to shareholders, but if I am a shareholder I haven't seen a dime of this money.

2. Wall Street needs to get out of this mindset that employees should not be paid. On an earnings call earlier this year, two Wall Street analysts went hard on American Airlines CEO Doug Parker for giving their workers a pay raise. If I was any politician running for office, the sound byte from this earnings call would be featured on every campaign ad I ran, and if I were actually in office, I would be calling these guys out by name.

3. Some of these big cities may need to rethink their zoning laws. And also rethink foreign investment. Down in New Zealand, PM Jacinda Arden (IMO one of the best PMs on the planet), took action on this, and it helped the situation immensely.

4. Take a close look at why college tuition costs have risen so much. This has led to the Student Loan crisis. We need to see if there is any correlation between the government providing financial aid, and colleges using the aid to line their own pockets and price gouge.

5. This is more expensive, but we need to seriously look at expanding public transit in bigger cites, and moving away from a society where everyone has to own a car. This would have economic and environmental benefits.
 
afcjets
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:29 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:45 am

afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


You’re speaking in blanket terms as if all wealth is made by starting an innovative business or improving upon a weak one. There are good and bad approaches to business, duh. Have a look at apodino’s post above for other examples of what can happen.

Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
afcjets
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:42 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


You’re speaking in blanket terms as if all wealth is made by starting an innovative business or improving upon a weak one. There are good and bad approaches to business, duh. Have a look at apodino’s post above for other examples of what can happen.


No I'm not and while some of that might be true, there is a separate line item for capital gains for example. Also the Trump tax cuts were mostly or wholly for income tax and it would be difficult to set tax rates based on your opinion of the righteousness of someone's income. More importantly a tax cut on any income an individual earns is in no way a handout or give away.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:10 pm

Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:45 am

afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


The bottom 80% of Americans (262 million people) got to split $81 billion last year in tax cuts.

The top 20% and wealthy foreign investors (65 million people) got $250 billion in tax cuts.

https://itep.org/updated-estimates-from ... ook-at-it/

Additionally, the deficit was $984 BILLION last year with 2020’s forecast to approach $1.15 TRILLION, assuming no economic slowdown. A mild recession like 2000 - 2001 would balloon the deficit to over $1.75 TRILLION.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:43 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


Way too many things conflated there to be able to cogently respond to. I’ll refer you to the 16th amendment and the arguments within.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18193
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF

Legitimate means lol :rotfl:

afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from?

Great question! It blew the deficit to new never before seen levels, so you tell me? And who do you think is going to get stuck with the bill for those deficits whether it's higher taxes or reduced services? Not the folks who engineered and benefited from this give away.

SanDiegoLover wrote:
afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


The bottom 80% of Americans (262 million people) got to split $81 billion last year in tax cuts.

The top 20% and wealthy foreign investors (65 million people) got $250 billion in tax cuts.

https://itep.org/updated-estimates-from ... ook-at-it/

Additionally, the deficit was $984 BILLION last year with 2020’s forecast to approach $1.15 TRILLION, assuming no economic slowdown. A mild recession like 2000 - 2001 would balloon the deficit to over $1.75 TRILLION.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6110
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


Way too many things conflated there to be able to cogently respond to. I’ll refer you to the 16th amendment and the arguments within.


Failed ECON 101, I’m guessing.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22553
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


"Inherited money" is income to the recipient. If you gave me $100,000,000 I would expect to be taxed, even though you have already paid tax on that money. Why? Because I have not paid tax on that money. I just got it. The very wealthy do have ways around not paying taxes. Like setting up trusts or churches or putting all that wealth off shore and away from where it can do any good for the American people. They keep saying how well trickle down works but then they don't participate in trickle down. They just hoard all that cash.

If you are going down the road of "why should the rich pay taxes for giving money to their kids" then why should any of us pay taxes at all because the tax was already paid when the IRS was established.

As far as Sam Walton being "hated" because of his wealth, that is not why people hate him. Wal-Mart is the recipient of many welfare benefits. Not only not paying local taxes as incentive for building, but the working poor go in and use their food stamps there. The Walton Family give almost nothing back, and they peddle their brand of Christianity. Wal-Mart also makes deals with companies to sell products where the supplier comes out losing. Sam Walton saw a need and filled it and laughed all the way to the bank. That is not why people hate Wal-Mart.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N757ST
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:28 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
afcjets wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
...with multiple rate cuts, a tax give away to the rich, and sky high deficits...but I'm sure 6% is right around the corner! :rotfl:

A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


The bottom 80% of Americans (262 million people) got to split $81 billion last year in tax cuts.

The top 20% and wealthy foreign investors (65 million people) got $250 billion in tax cuts.

https://itep.org/updated-estimates-from ... ook-at-it/

Additionally, the deficit was $984 BILLION last year with 2020’s forecast to approach $1.15 TRILLION, assuming no economic slowdown. A mild recession like 2000 - 2001 would balloon the deficit to over $1.75 TRILLION.


The bottom 75% pay only 12% of total tax receipts, where as the top 25% pay almost all the income taxes in this country at 88% of receipts. Why should the top 20% not get the cut? They’re the ones paying all the taxes!
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:49 pm

The perverse notion that income taxes are the end all be all of taxation needs to change. It’s ridiculous that hedge fund managers get to use a carried interest loophole to pay only 10% or 15% on tens or hundreds of millions of $$$ per annum, yet if that was taxed as “income” (which it is) would be 35% + pay roughly 7% on top of that for FICA taxes on the first $125k. Republicans like to trot out the income tax excuse but never include talking about social security tax, Medicare tax, sales tax, property tax, and use taxes. Why should labor be taxed higher than capital gains taxes, or corporate debt and share buybacks be encouraged via the current tax policy? We need to shift the taxes to carbon and AI / robot taxes, and slash labor taxes to carried interest loophole rates.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nccryZOcrUg

For Republicans there’s no money to fix anything, but there’s always and endless supply of money to be borrowed for tax cuts. It’s lunacy.
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Regardless of party affiliation, the vast majority of Americans have no issue taxing those who inherited wealth or made billions erasing small town mom and pop in favor of big box stores full of Chinese junk.


In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


"Inherited money" is income to the recipient. If you gave me $100,000,000 I would expect to be taxed, even though you have already paid tax on that money. Why? Because I have not paid tax on that money. I just got it. The very wealthy do have ways around not paying taxes. Like setting up trusts or churches or putting all that wealth off shore and away from where it can do any good for the American people. They keep saying how well trickle down works but then they don't participate in trickle down. They just hoard all that cash.

If you are going down the road of "why should the rich pay taxes for giving money to their kids" then why should any of us pay taxes at all because the tax was already paid when the IRS was established.

As far as Sam Walton being "hated" because of his wealth, that is not why people hate him. Wal-Mart is the recipient of many welfare benefits. Not only not paying local taxes as incentive for building, but the working poor go in and use their food stamps there. The Walton Family give almost nothing back, and they peddle their brand of Christianity. Wal-Mart also makes deals with companies to sell products where the supplier comes out losing. Sam Walton saw a need and filled it and laughed all the way to the bank. That is not why people hate Wal-Mart.



People don't hoard cash. They dont have a vault like scrooge mcduck that they jump in. It's all invested money. Bezos doesnt have a hundred billion dollars in a bank account. It's a valuation of his company and the stock he owns in it. We have been over this before on other topics on this forum. The wealth the waltons have is similar.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3510
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:23 pm

N757ST wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
afcjets wrote:
A give away? Where exactly do you think these funds the government is giving away to someone come from? It's disingenuous to call money an individual made themselves a give away. Btw, a higher percentage "give away" was given to middle class taxpayers.


The bottom 80% of Americans (262 million people) got to split $81 billion last year in tax cuts.

The top 20% and wealthy foreign investors (65 million people) got $250 billion in tax cuts.

https://itep.org/updated-estimates-from ... ook-at-it/

Additionally, the deficit was $984 BILLION last year with 2020’s forecast to approach $1.15 TRILLION, assuming no economic slowdown. A mild recession like 2000 - 2001 would balloon the deficit to over $1.75 TRILLION.


The bottom 75% pay only 12% of total tax receipts, where as the top 25% pay almost all the income taxes in this country at 88% of receipts. Why should the top 20% not get the cut? They’re the ones paying all the taxes!


Exactly. Which is why anytime Republican give everyone a tax cut, even when the highest income brackets have a smaller share of their taxes cut than everyone else and benefit less (as in the case of the Trump tax plan), Democrats can always claim "It's a tax cut for the rich!"
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 12379
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


Way too many things conflated there to be able to cogently respond to. I’ll refer you to the 16th amendment and the arguments within.


Failed ECON 101, I’m guessing.


Nope, have a degree in it. Typical - ‘your values are different so you must be stupid’, no?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22553
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:20 am

trpmb6 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In your view then, the vast majority of Americans are thieves using the government to steal from people who generated wealth thru legitimate means. Inherited money, assuming not from theft, was earned by selling a product people were willing to buy. Someone in their past designed and developed a product people wanted more than they valued the purchase price. The family paid taxes and passed on the family wealth. Sam Walton may be hated, but he met a need and Americans flocked to buy there saving money to be used to met other desires. What you think is “Chinese junk” was someone else’s treasure, their means to save for a car or a house, to give their children a Christmas toy. I doubt people who shop at Wal-Mart really want them to go away do they can go to Nordstrom’s for clothing.

GF


"Inherited money" is income to the recipient. If you gave me $100,000,000 I would expect to be taxed, even though you have already paid tax on that money. Why? Because I have not paid tax on that money. I just got it. The very wealthy do have ways around not paying taxes. Like setting up trusts or churches or putting all that wealth off shore and away from where it can do any good for the American people. They keep saying how well trickle down works but then they don't participate in trickle down. They just hoard all that cash.

If you are going down the road of "why should the rich pay taxes for giving money to their kids" then why should any of us pay taxes at all because the tax was already paid when the IRS was established.

As far as Sam Walton being "hated" because of his wealth, that is not why people hate him. Wal-Mart is the recipient of many welfare benefits. Not only not paying local taxes as incentive for building, but the working poor go in and use their food stamps there. The Walton Family give almost nothing back, and they peddle their brand of Christianity. Wal-Mart also makes deals with companies to sell products where the supplier comes out losing. Sam Walton saw a need and filled it and laughed all the way to the bank. That is not why people hate Wal-Mart.



People don't hoard cash. They dont have a vault like scrooge mcduck that they jump in. It's all invested money. Bezos doesnt have a hundred billion dollars in a bank account. It's a valuation of his company and the stock he owns in it. We have been over this before on other topics on this forum. The wealth the waltons have is similar.


They have bank accounts off shore so they don't have to pay taxes. But, let's just focus on your point of only the investments. They pay no taxes on that unless and until they make a profit off those investments. Even then, when they game the system, they don't have to pay taxes on that new found money. That income. They can make money off buying and selling stuff. Okay, fine. Pay taxes on it, at least. But, it will be argued they should not for some bizarre reason.

Bezos invests $1,000,000 in his media. He gets back $500,000 in one month. That is income and should be taxed as such. Including Social Security. Just like the rest of us. But, no. He and the Waltons can use accounting tricks to get out of paying much of anything. on that income. The cashiers at Wal-Mart can not say "this is investment and not income so I must pay lower taxes".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6110
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Way too many things conflated there to be able to cogently respond to. I’ll refer you to the 16th amendment and the arguments within.


Failed ECON 101, I’m guessing.


Nope, have a degree in it. Typical - ‘your values are different so you must be stupid’, no?


Where from, the Moscow State University?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6110
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:06 pm

seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"Inherited money" is income to the recipient. If you gave me $100,000,000 I would expect to be taxed, even though you have already paid tax on that money. Why? Because I have not paid tax on that money. I just got it. The very wealthy do have ways around not paying taxes. Like setting up trusts or churches or putting all that wealth off shore and away from where it can do any good for the American people. They keep saying how well trickle down works but then they don't participate in trickle down. They just hoard all that cash.

If you are going down the road of "why should the rich pay taxes for giving money to their kids" then why should any of us pay taxes at all because the tax was already paid when the IRS was established.

As far as Sam Walton being "hated" because of his wealth, that is not why people hate him. Wal-Mart is the recipient of many welfare benefits. Not only not paying local taxes as incentive for building, but the working poor go in and use their food stamps there. The Walton Family give almost nothing back, and they peddle their brand of Christianity. Wal-Mart also makes deals with companies to sell products where the supplier comes out losing. Sam Walton saw a need and filled it and laughed all the way to the bank. That is not why people hate Wal-Mart.



People don't hoard cash. They dont have a vault like scrooge mcduck that they jump in. It's all invested money. Bezos doesnt have a hundred billion dollars in a bank account. It's a valuation of his company and the stock he owns in it. We have been over this before on other topics on this forum. The wealth the waltons have is similar.


They have bank accounts off shore so they don't have to pay taxes. But, let's just focus on your point of only the investments. They pay no taxes on that unless and until they make a profit off those investments. Even then, when they game the system, they don't have to pay taxes on that new found money. That income. They can make money off buying and selling stuff. Okay, fine. Pay taxes on it, at least. But, it will be argued they should not for some bizarre reason.

Bezos invests $1,000,000 in his media. He gets back $500,000 in one month. That is income and should be taxed as such. Including Social Security. Just like the rest of us. But, no. He and the Waltons can use accounting tricks to get out of paying much of anything. on that income. The cashiers at Wal-Mart can not say "this is investment and not income so I must pay lower taxes".


Look up FATCA, please. Overseas accounts are accounted for.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:


People don't hoard cash. They dont have a vault like scrooge mcduck that they jump in. It's all invested money. Bezos doesnt have a hundred billion dollars in a bank account. It's a valuation of his company and the stock he owns in it. We have been over this before on other topics on this forum. The wealth the waltons have is similar.


They have bank accounts off shore so they don't have to pay taxes. But, let's just focus on your point of only the investments. They pay no taxes on that unless and until they make a profit off those investments. Even then, when they game the system, they don't have to pay taxes on that new found money. That income. They can make money off buying and selling stuff. Okay, fine. Pay taxes on it, at least. But, it will be argued they should not for some bizarre reason.

Bezos invests $1,000,000 in his media. He gets back $500,000 in one month. That is income and should be taxed as such. Including Social Security. Just like the rest of us. But, no. He and the Waltons can use accounting tricks to get out of paying much of anything. on that income. The cashiers at Wal-Mart can not say "this is investment and not income so I must pay lower taxes".


Look up FATCA, please. Overseas accounts are accounted for.


Seriously Seb, that's a load of crap. So much misinformation in one post that I don't have the time to even dissect it point by point.
 
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Re: Dow breaks 27,000 for the first time ever

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:12 am

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