olle
Topic Author
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EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:26 pm

A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal
 
anrec80
Posts: 1976
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:05 pm

Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:36 pm

I supposed not ;-) But even old dogs learn to sit sometimes.

But it is a big step forward. Now Malta and spain get some help. Perhaps italy regime realize that together we solve complicated problem. Devided we are all alone.

One day poland and hungary will need help as well. Who will help them? Le pen or brexit party?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:01 pm

Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:06 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?


Why should they take any?

Further to my post above the NGO rescue taxis should also be impounded and scrapped.
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.


Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?


Why should they take any?

Further to my post above the NGO rescue taxis should also be impounded and scrapped.


Perfectly agreed. And - new legislature around those NGO is necessary. Running, donating to, or participating in an NGO that encourages and helps is breaking the law should be a criminal offense.
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:15 pm

olle wrote:
I supposed not ;-) But even old dogs learn to sit sometimes.

But it is a big step forward. Now Malta and spain get some help. Perhaps italy regime realize that together we solve complicated problem. Devided we are all alone.

One day poland and hungary will need help as well. Who will help them? Le pen or brexit party?


The way EU helps it’s better not to. The EU helped Greece with their debt crisis - as the result 25% contraction in economy. “Help” with migrants has also been the same - they did 1% of what’s really needed and say “we are standing together”.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.


Are you implying EU should invade Turkey? The prob is far more complex and political than you think...
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:58 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
Are you implying EU should invade Turkey? The prob is far more complex and political than you think...


Most of those migrants are coming from Africa, setting sail off the shores of Libya. And European liberal NGOs are working hard there. There are 2 steps that will drastically reduce the inflow.

A) Stop attracting them by removing welfare and social goodies.
B) Criminalize NGOs bringing them in.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.


Completely agree. We can’t save the whole world, especially not as the population numbers around Europe are surging
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:03 pm

Part of the deal is also as Iunderstand it to already in libya separate refugees and other people so refugees can pass with EU help if they can prove their case. That will decrease the business for criminal organisations.

Invading turkey and northen afrika sound like a typical great idea that is easy to say then to execure.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:21 pm

olle wrote:
But it is a big step forward.


Towards what?
 
Draken21fx
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
Are you implying EU should invade Turkey? The prob is far more complex and political than you think...


Most of those migrants are coming from Africa, setting sail off the shores of Libya. And European liberal NGOs are working hard there. There are 2 steps that will drastically reduce the inflow.

A) Stop attracting them by removing welfare and social goodies.
B) Criminalize NGOs bringing them in.


You do know the numbers right?

https://www.ecfr.eu/specials/mapping_migration

There are about 150k per year using the Libya route (and the numbers are pretty stable) but the main influx was through Turkey in 2015 when around 1mil people crossed (roughly as many as would cross through Libya in 7 years).

This means around 2700 people per day which would require around 200+ boats crossing a day which is hard for any authority to miss ;)

After the deal between the EU and Turkey in 18th March 2016 that number was cut by 90% so as you can understand the problem is more political than anything. At the moment Turkey is hosting around 4mil refugees.
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:27 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
After the deal between the EU and Turkey in 18th March 2016 that number was cut by 90% so as you can understand the problem is more political than anything. At the moment Turkey is hosting around 4mil refugees.


It’s not even about numbers as much, it’s about basic order and respect to the law in Europe.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:40 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
After the deal between the EU and Turkey in 18th March 2016 that number was cut by 90% so as you can understand the problem is more political than anything. At the moment Turkey is hosting around 4mil refugees.


It’s not even about numbers as much, it’s about basic order and respect to the law in Europe.


It is about numbers as you cannot stop immigration no matter which measures you put in place but it is completely different trying to shelter 150k immigrants per year across Europe and sth completely different trying the same for 10x that number.
 
ltbewr
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:42 pm

I recall being in Italy in June, 1985 and the problems they had with people entering the country from Albania (which was not part of the EU then) and North Africa, usually by boat. The problem is nothing new in Europe, but like the USA, terribly handled for decades and allowed to grow into a crises level.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:45 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
After the deal between the EU and Turkey in 18th March 2016 that number was cut by 90% so as you can understand the problem is more political than anything.

Indeed it is political. Instead of resisting uncontrolled immigration itself, the EU signs a dirty deal with Erdogan while funding people trafficking NGOs ferrying people accross the Med at the same time. BTW, it's down 90% from 2015 when the whole migration madness was at its peak. How much is it in real numbers and how much is it compared to say 10 or 20 years ago?
Last edited by L410Turbolet on Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:05 pm

The next problem is a lot of these immigrants realise they have made a huge mistake, they understand that they haven’t reached the promised land but won’t go back home because it’s a huge loss of face for them, they don’t want to look like a failure to there villages and families.
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The next problem is a lot of these immigrants realise they have made a huge mistake, they understand that they haven’t reached the promised land but won’t go back home because it’s a huge loss of face for them, they don’t want to look like a failure to there villages and families.


This is the problem of these migrants. EU and EU taxpayers should not have anything to do with this.
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:51 pm

olle wrote:
A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal

Nowhere it actually says that 14 countries agreed or are taking in migrants. The majority of European citizens and countries don’t want them. German NGO’s with mostly German crews and help from the German government are behind this. Germany must stop trying to impose their vision on the future of Europe on other European countries. They’ve tried this before and failed miserably, in the end they’ll fail again this time. But while trying the Germans risk the future of the EU.

Defy Merkel and sink the NGO ferries!
 
THS214
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?


Why should they take any?

Further to my post above the NGO rescue taxis should also be impounded and scrapped.


You are a lot more extreme than I but this time I agree (mostly). Why scrap those ships when you can sell them and get some money?

Some years ago Finland accepted 35 000 (illegal) asylum seekers from Sweden (mostly syrian young males). Now, for example, Helsinki area (1 000 000 people) of rape suspects are 54% nonFinns. Do the math. We really don't have that many foreigners.

Before "these asylum seekers" preteen and other under ages rapes were rare. Now it has shot (pun intended) of the roof. And most of them are these "refugees". 1000% inckees is a low number. And the increes is all by these in need of help.

This from a country that is considered one of the least racists in the world.

Sorry for the post but truth must be told.
 
THS214
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The next problem is a lot of these immigrants realise they have made a huge mistake, they understand that they haven’t reached the promised land but won’t go back home because it’s a huge loss of face for them, they don’t want to look like a failure to there villages and families.


Finland even pay volunteer returners their air tickets and give like 2 000€ cash. Not many takers.

Funny that when you are the refugee of the year in Finland, you are later found as a cheater or a criminal. What are the rest?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:43 pm

The trouble is, this will just encourage more of them.

Thank god the UK is an island.
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:25 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Thank god the UK is an island.

The Channel is peanuts compared to the Mediterranean. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-732011 ... oasts.html
 
blueflyer
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?


Why should they take any?

Poland should accept immigrants to a point where the net migration flux to/from the EU is zero. Why should Poland be able to export its unemployed to other EU countries, and refuse to help fellow members at the same time? It's not as if they didn't know it could happen when they begged for membership.

If they have a problem accepting the burden of EU membership, there's an island not too far that can introduce them to a little-known article 50 of the EU treaty. Strangely enough that island has accepted more Poles than any other EU country. I wonder if that is a coincidence.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:59 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Poland should accept immigrants to a point where the net migration flux to/from the EU is zero.

They did accept tons of migrants from Ukraine, which happens to be in Europe (helping fellow Europeans). It's not their problem, that in today's EU narrative the only immigration that apparently counts is muslim one and that the Europe is designated dumping ground for third world's surplus population from failed countries like Pakistan or Nigeria.


blueflyer wrote:
It's not as if they didn't know it could happen when they begged for membership.

They and others were joining the EU of 1993 , not post-Lisbon Treaty EUrabia, where French and Germans treat the EU like their own empire.

Are you French by any chance?
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:13 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
They did accept tons of migrants from Ukraine, which happens to be in Europe (helping fellow Europeans). It's not their problem, that in today's EU narrative the only immigration that apparently counts is muslim one and that the Europe is designated dumping ground for third world's surplus population from failed countries like Pakistan or Nigeria.


Well - Poland has it smart, and this isn't refugee acceptance really. All Ukrainians get is temporary work permits, nothing else. No social assistance, no free housing, no language classes, nothing else. These are the terms all other refugees in EU should be getting - if you do not want to attract "social" migrants. For Polish state things do not get better - they work and pay taxes now, but when these people reach their senior years - it's not Poland's problem. No need to pay lifetime retirement benefits, provide medical care, long term care, etc.

L410Turbolet wrote:
They and others were joining the EU of 1993 , not post-Lisbon Treaty EUrabia, where French and Germans treat the EU like their own empire.

Are you French by any chance?


Perfectly agree - this is what British voters voted for when choosing Brexit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:14 am

olle wrote:
A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal


This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal


This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,


Harder than you think. To differentiate between real and fake.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,


I am not even sure that the “real” (non-economical) refugee exists as species in 21st century.
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:59 am

Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sver ... i-sverige/


And one the highest internationally


https://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Arbet ... ka-lander/

Murders in number per year has been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:17 am

olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sver ... i-sverige/


And one the highest internationally


https://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Arbet ... ka-lander/

Murders in number per year has been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.



That’s all fine and dandy but it’s not without reason it’s now called Swedistan. Swedish culture is diminishing quicker than you can blink
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:18 am

olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sver ... i-sverige/


And one the highest internationally


https://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Arbet ... ka-lander/

Murders in number per year have been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.


Refugees are different than workers. In western Europe, we need people to work in our industries, sure, especially low education label which people aren't willing to do, if you have some form of education you want a better job than these low paying jobs. For this we could have some kind of Visa system where you can work for two years or something and then you have to leave again. Genuine refugees are different because their home country is torn apart and for these people, we have signed the Refugee tradies to provide them with security, but those aren't too many on a population of 500million people. We are a compassionate society, so I feel we need to protect those people and give them a home.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:12 am

Kiwirob wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Still not all 28. Has Poland agreed to take some as well?


Why should they take any?

Further to my post above the NGO rescue taxis should also be impounded and scrapped.


Because adding Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary to the lottery is a massive deterrent for refugees hoping to land a spot in a ghetto in Germany, Sweden or the UK.

But I agree with the second.


olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.


They need trained and skilled workers who are willing and able to work. Half of all non-western immigrants in Denmark don't have an education.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sver ... i-sverige/


And one the highest internationally


https://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Arbet ... ka-lander/

Murders in number per year have been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.


Refugees are different than workers. In western Europe, we need people to work in our industries, sure, especially low education label which people aren't willing to do, if you have some form of education you want a better job than these low paying jobs. For this we could have some kind of Visa system where you can work for two years or something and then you have to leave again. Genuine refugees are different because their home country is torn apart and for these people, we have signed the Refugee tradies to provide them with security, but those aren't too many on a population of 500million people. We are a compassionate society, so I feel we need to protect those people and give them a home.


And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:20 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
We have a duty to care for our own first

Shinzo Abe, 2015
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.


Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.

But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:19 pm

olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

This is despite the refugees, not because of them.

University of Malmo:
The employment rates of male humanitarian migrants and family reunion migrants who moved to Sweden after 1997 are more than 20 percentage points lower than those of male labour migrants and about 35 percentage points lower than natives. Women show a similar pattern.

And when it comes to employment the last thing you need are African migrants:
Somalian refugees have the lowest employment rates, both among men and women, with rates of 27% and 13%, respectively.

https://archive.intereconomics.eu/year/ ... view/#abb3

How about employing the current refugees first instead op picking up new ones assuming they'll do better?

Murders in number per year has been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.


To understand crime in Sweden, it’s important to note that Sweden has benefited from the West’s broad decline in deadly violence, particularly when it comes to spontaneous violence and alcohol-related killings. The overall drop in homicides has been, however, far smaller in Sweden than in neighboring countries.

Gang-related gun murders, now mainly a phenomenon among men with immigrant backgrounds in the country’s parallel societies, increased from 4 per year in the early 1990s to around 40 last year. Because of this, Sweden has gone from being a low-crime country to having homicide rates significantly above the Western European average. Social unrest, with car torchings, attacks on first responders and even riots, is a recurring phenomenon.


https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden- ... and-order/

Don't let truth get in the way of your pro-migrant propaganda. :sarcastic:
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?

Simple solution: let those who have progressed in building a life for themselves by progressing in education or having a job stay and return those who even after more than 5 years didn't make any progress or were involved in criminal activity. Then there's no need for anyone to just sit and wait yet the burden on host countries is relieved.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:30 pm

Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.


Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.

But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?

Simple solution: let those who have progressed in terms of education or having a job stay and return those who even after more than 5 years didn't make any progress. Then there's no need for anyone to just sit and wait yet the burden on host countries is relieved.


We are talking about refugees here, so what if after five years, the country of origin is still unsafe? Like Syria? Would you send them back to an unsafe country?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?

Simple solution: let those who have progressed in terms of education or having a job stay and return those who even after more than 5 years didn't make any progress. Then there's no need for anyone to just sit and wait yet the burden on host countries is relieved.


We are talking about refugees here, so what if after five years, the country of origin is still unsafe? Like Syria? Would you send them back to an unsafe country?

No I wouldn't. I had your scenario in mind about the conflict being solved after more than 5 years but the reason to not send them back would be them not being able to build a life for themselves.
Last edited by Jetty on Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.


Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.



Why exactly would that be strange? Do you think Kiwirob moved to Norway illegally declaring himself a refugee? I bet he didn't. I'm an immigrant too. I had to go through all kinds of hoops to gain the right to immigrate to Canada. I had to pay for the right to move here. I had to prove I have the means to support myself and my family. I had sign a statement saying that for 3 years I won't apply for any government help.
Honestly, after that are my sympathies for those who declare themselves refugees and hop on the smugglers boat are zero. I believe Kiwirob is the same.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say.

Terms like "humane", "EUropean values" or "rule of law" thrown around by the pro- migrant left have ad hoc meaning and they are being used whenever it is necessary to silence opponents.
But I will play along... What is inhumane about knowing from day 1 that their status is temporary? Isn't this approach inhumane and unsustainable towards the countries they fled? Who will work there on the post-war recovery, when only the old Are left behind? This only perpetuates the failed state situation of their home countries.

I would love to hear what is the endgame of the fanatical pro-immigrant left?

Africa's population is projected to double by 2050 (2.4 billion) and double again by 2100, that is roughly within the span of just three generations. Will you invite them all to Europe, or just say "only" 1 billion?
Even if other nations, not just Swedes, decided they are not worthy of further existence and should be replaced by another, more deserving (counter)culture because there is no such thing as Swedish culture (Ms.Sahlin, social democrat, 2002) will they all squeeze in? What about precious "EUropean values" the left is full od, how will they fare in a society where 20-40% of population folows totally different ideology which doesn't give a f*ck about secularism, human rights or women's equality?


Dutchy wrote:
It is perfectly feasible to distinguish between the two, immigration offices around the word do it all the time.

If it is perfectly feasible then how come authorites can't even figure out the age of migrants who - coached by people trafficking NGOs on how to game the system - pretend to be minors?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9515
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:13 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say.

Terms like "humane", "EUropean values" or "rule of law" thrown around by the pro- migrant left have ad hoc meaning and they are being used whenever it is necessary to silence opponents.
But I will play along... What is inhumane about knowing from day 1 that their status is temporary? Isn't this approach inhumane and unsustainable towards the countries they fled? Who will work there on the post-war recovery, when only the old Are left behind? This only perpetuates the failed state situation of their home countries.

I would love to hear what is the endgame of the fanatical pro-immigrant left?

Africa's population is projected to double by 2050 (2.4 billion) and double again by 2100, that is roughly within the span of just three generations. Will you invite them all to Europe, or just say "only" 1 billion?
Even if other nations, not just Swedes, decided they are not worthy of further existence and should be replaced by another, more deserving (counter)culture because there is no such thing as Swedish culture (Ms.Sahlin, social democrat, 2002) will they all squeeze in? What about precious "EUropean values" the left is full od, how will they fare in a society where 20-40% of population folows totally different ideology which doesn't give a f*ck about secularism, human rights or women's equality?


Dutchy wrote:
It is perfectly feasible to distinguish between the two, immigration offices around the word do it all the time.

If it is perfectly feasible then how come authorites can't even figure out the age of migrants who - coached by people trafficking NGOs on how to game the system - pretend to be minors?


Whom is talking about letting all people in? Whom is in favor of letting the 2.4billion of Africans migrating to Europe or even 1bn? You should distinguish between immigrants and refugees. I am fine with a temporary working visa for immigrants, why not, it benefits both parties, on the condition that they actually leave after their visa expires, that mistake was made in the 1960/70's. Refugees is another matter. I am fine if, after five years of uncertainty, they are granted permanent status, if their country of origin still isn't safe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1140
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:22 pm

Jetty wrote:
olle wrote:
Sweden and germany need workers.

Today most people in the industries are forreign born.

The prercentage of thevpopulation working is one of the highest in the history of sweden 68%

This is despite the refugees, not because of them.

University of Malmo:
The employment rates of male humanitarian migrants and family reunion migrants who moved to Sweden after 1997 are more than 20 percentage points lower than those of male labour migrants and about 35 percentage points lower than natives. Women show a similar pattern.

And when it comes to employment the last thing you need are African migrants:
Somalian refugees have the lowest employment rates, both among men and women, with rates of 27% and 13%, respectively.

https://archive.intereconomics.eu/year/ ... view/#abb3

How about employing the current refugees first instead op picking up new ones assuming they'll do better?

Murders in number per year has been constantly around 100 since around 1960s even with a population around 40% bigger.


To understand crime in Sweden, it’s important to note that Sweden has benefited from the West’s broad decline in deadly violence, particularly when it comes to spontaneous violence and alcohol-related killings. The overall drop in homicides has been, however, far smaller in Sweden than in neighboring countries.

Gang-related gun murders, now mainly a phenomenon among men with immigrant backgrounds in the country’s parallel societies, increased from 4 per year in the early 1990s to around 40 last year. Because of this, Sweden has gone from being a low-crime country to having homicide rates significantly above the Western European average. Social unrest, with car torchings, attacks on first responders and even riots, is a recurring phenomenon.



https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden- ... and-order/[quote]


This is quit interestin that 1997 is mentioned because before that most refugees was ex yugoslavia with an emloyment exceeding 80% compared to 68% of the population in general.

https://www.svd.se/sa-integrerades-balkanflyktingarna


When you recieve refugees in general different groups will have diffrerent level of education with different enploymant level. Ex yugoslavia was extremly high, somalia low etc, syria will probably be high because their general level of education.

What is interesting and Sweden seems to do something correct is that second generation have similar levels of employment and university degrees etc like the rest of the population.

Last the biggest refugee group start to get access to the work market right now. With employment grade of 68% of the workforce, one of the highest in the world this group is what the companies have available right now is refugees.
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:31 pm

When discussin violence in sweden from a usa or mr trump perspective it is important that number of homocide in usa is 4 times higher per million person.

Rape is higher but also defined more wide. Mr Trump is a rapist in sweden, and only grouping women in usa



https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... lent-crime

This is including that sweden today has 20 % of its population first or second generation immigrants.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6062
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:45 pm

olle wrote:
When discussin violence in sweden from a usa or mr trump perspective it is important that number of homocide in usa is 4 times higher per million person.

Why do you drag the US or Trump into the discussion when all but one participating in this discussion are non-Americans?
 
Jetty
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:05 pm

olle wrote:
Ex yugoslavia was extremly high, somalia low etc, syria will probably be high because their general level of education.

Last the biggest refugee group start to get access to the work market right now. With employment grade of 68% of the workforce, one of the highest in the world this group is what the companies have available right now is refugees.

But if there are so many refugees without work in Sweden already why do you seem to argue Sweden needs new African migrants because of labor demand? At least let's wait till the current ones are employed no?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2805
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say.


Why? Inhumane? Really? People uproot and relocate all the time. It's a matter of life. It isn't uncommon in the US, China and Australia for people to relocate completely across the country. It is increasingly happening across the EU as well. Is it inhumane for those people too?

Dutchy wrote:
We are talking about refugees here, so what if after five years, the country of origin is still unsafe? Like Syria? Would you send them back to an unsafe country?


IMO, we should at the very least focus our efforts on preparing them to return. Draft and train any able-bodied people for a rebuilding force that can be dispatched to fix the broken home country.

L410Turbolet wrote:
Isn't this approach inhumane and unsustainable towards the countries they fled? Who will work there on the post-war recovery, when only the old Are left behind? This only perpetuates the failed state situation of their home countries.


This, so much this. It is like all the people who donate clothes to poor countries. They think it is a nice gesture, but in reality it only wipes out the local textile industry, creating more poverty. Or the most stupid one I've seen so far: donate a goat. Goats are one of the primary reasons for deforestation in Africa, it is really the most harmful things you can do.

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