Jetty
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Refugees is another matter. I am fine if, after five years of uncertainty, they are granted permanent status, if their country of origin still isn't safe.

Even if the native population still has no certainty that a refugee will even work despite everything he/she got for free?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal


This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,


This exists.

Anyone who can demonstrate that they have a well founded fear of persecution under the 1951 convention on the basis of race, religion, political opinion, membership of a particular social group will be recognised as a refugee.

We do need better mechanisms to remove the chancers who can demonstrate the above.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:50 pm

Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Refugees is another matter. I am fine if, after five years of uncertainty, they are granted permanent status, if their country of origin still isn't safe.

Even if the native population still has no certainty that a refugee will even work despite everything he/she got for free?


Within the five year period, the refugee must work on getting skilled for the labor market, just like every native person. And he or she needs to work, just like any native person.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:54 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
A big step;

14 EU countries has agreed to distribute migrants from south Europe.

First 40 to malta first test;


Things slowly getting better;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... d-refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-eu-deal


This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,


This exists.

Anyone who can demonstrate that they have a well founded fear of persecution under the 1951 convention on the basis of race, religion, political opinion, membership of a particular social group will be recognised as a refugee.

We do need better mechanisms to remove the chancers who can demonstrate the above.


Yes, I agree, and you know what would give us the best chance for that: using the economic power of the EU to get that done with countries unwilling to do this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:09 pm

Unwilling to do what?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:11 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Unwilling to do what?


Take back their citizens even though they do not want to return. I know China, Iraq, and Marocco seem to be unwilling to take back their citizens, but there must be many more.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.


Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.

But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?


Permanent resident married to a Norwegian citizen with three Norwegian citizen kids, I am not a refugee, you can’t compare the two situations..

If the refugee doesn’t have a job and is living on welfare then they don’t deserve to stay, even after 10 years.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:38 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
And genuine refugees should be returned home when the country they are from is safe. They should not be entitled to any form of aid apart from a roof and food, any children they might have should not be allowed citizenship of the country providing refuge.

We have a duty to care for our own first and refugees second.


Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.

But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?


Permanent resident married to a Norwegian citizen with three Norwegian citizen kids, I am not a refugee, you can’t compare the two situations..

If the refugee doesn’t have a job and is living on welfare then they don’t deserve to stay, even after 10 years.


So you feel the there shouldn't be a refugee status at all?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Quiet strange coming from someone whom is a guest in another country.

But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?


Permanent resident married to a Norwegian citizen with three Norwegian citizen kids, I am not a refugee, you can’t compare the two situations..

If the refugee doesn’t have a job and is living on welfare then they don’t deserve to stay, even after 10 years.


So you feel the there shouldn't be a refugee status at all?


Where did I say that? Refugee status is for a limited time period, it’s not a lifestyle choice, so if you haven’t done anything with yourself and continue to live off the state that granted you refuge you should be removed after a period of time, let’s call it 10 years.
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:15 pm

It is therefore sweden sent back around 50% of the people that clames refugee status.

Many , after investigation is found not to be refugee or the regions or countries they come from i more safe.

Many find work and if you have work and can prove that you can support yourself you are welcome to stay.

Why throw out someone non criminal that add to the wealth of sweden?
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:22 pm

Back to the subject?

Eu agreement?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Permanent resident married to a Norwegian citizen with three Norwegian citizen kids, I am not a refugee, you can’t compare the two situations..

If the refugee doesn’t have a job and is living on welfare then they don’t deserve to stay, even after 10 years.


So you feel the there shouldn't be a refugee status at all?


Where did I say that? Refugee status is for a limited time period, it’s not a lifestyle choice, so if you haven’t done anything with yourself and continue to live off the state that granted you refuge you should be removed after a period of time, let’s call it 10 years.


Even though your home country isn't safe? What about children born in this period and going to school etc? Still, send away after 10 years?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This is a positive step, now we need a common policy to distingue between real refugees and illegal immigrants and a mechanism to send them back,


This exists.

Anyone who can demonstrate that they have a well founded fear of persecution under the 1951 convention on the basis of race, religion, political opinion, membership of a particular social group will be recognised as a refugee.

We do need better mechanisms to remove the chancers who can demonstrate the above.


Yes, I agree, and you know what would give us the best chance for that: using the economic power of the EU to get that done with countries unwilling to do this.


some countries like Iran, don’t want to know and already have sanctions.
 
Jetty
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Refugees is another matter. I am fine if, after five years of uncertainty, they are granted permanent status, if their country of origin still isn't safe.

Even if the native population still has no certainty that a refugee will even work despite everything he/she got for free?


Within the five year period, the refugee must work on getting skilled for the labor market, just like every native person. And he or she needs to work, just like any native person.

That’s not a real answer because we both know this isn’t the case and unemployment among refugees is huge despite many employers looking for staff.
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:47 pm

 
tu204
Posts: 1915
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:04 pm

VSMUT wrote:
This, so much this. It is like all the people who donate clothes to poor countries. They think it is a nice gesture, but in reality it only wipes out the local textile industry, creating more poverty. Or the most stupid one I've seen so far: donate a goat. Goats are one of the primary reasons for deforestation in Africa, it is really the most harmful things you can do.


Can't agree more. Having lived and worked in the worst parts of Africa, I vouch for this. Since having been there I strongly disagree with most of the foreign aid that is provided to these places. They make the situation worse.

As far as refugees go, same thing. If you really wanna blow money, fund refugee camps in said country or nearby. Don't bring them to your country - you will never get them to leave afterwards.
Exception is if you have two places with similar cultures and mindsets. Yugoslavia is one example when referring to Europe. Or Ukrainian refugees in Russia. That can work.
Or when you have small amounts which get disolved in a native population.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Within the five year period, the refugee must work on getting skilled for the labor market, just like every native person. And he or she needs to work, just like any native person.


Half of the refugees that came to the Netherlands in 2014 are from Syria. 10 percent of this group had paid work last summer - Statistics Netherlands' latest reference date. 6 percent of the 4 thousand Eritrean refugees had work. Most of the refugees in these two groups are still on welfare.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/04/17/tenth-ref ... n-25-years

Unemployment rate in the Netherlands hovers around 3,5%. Meanwhile there are tons of unemployed Greeks and Spaniards...
 
Jetty
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:10 pm

olle wrote:

That isn’t what the article says, just as there is no deal between 14 EU countries that you started the thread with. Reality is a majority of European countries won’t agree to a deal unless the NGO ships are put out of service.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:47 pm

Jetty wrote:
olle wrote:

That isn’t what the article says, just as there is no deal between 14 EU countries that you started the thread with. Reality is a majority of European countries won’t agree to a deal unless the NGO ships are put out of service.


Strange that we can read an article so different.

Dublin agreement was the seed to the original problem. Refugees coming tonfor example italy is not a common EU27 problem but italy problem.

A few days ago 14 countries said that even with Dublin we need to support the "front" nations.

Now the new head of commision says that we need to make border control and migration a EU level problem.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:50 pm

The President-elect of the European Commission said: “I will propose a new pact on migration and asylum, including the relaunch of the Dublin reform.

“I’ve never really understood why Dublin started with the simple equation: Where a migrant first stepped foot in the EU, that’s where he or she must stay.

“Migration takes place by land or sea. We can only have stability on our external borders if we provide sufficient help to member states that are exposed to a lot of migration pressure because of their position on the map.”



How this can be read into that the original temporal deal declared is not functioning i do not understand.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:07 am

It seems like the work of getting better border security moves forward;

Anyone entering EU by airflight, road or rail will in the future need to preregister;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... road-users


This is a big change compared to today.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12151
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you feel the there shouldn't be a refugee status at all?


Where did I say that? Refugee status is for a limited time period, it’s not a lifestyle choice, so if you haven’t done anything with yourself and continue to live off the state that granted you refuge you should be removed after a period of time, let’s call it 10 years.


Even though your home country isn't safe? What about children born in this period and going to school etc? Still, send away after 10 years?


Just because you’re born somewhere shouldn’t give you citizenship of that country.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:54 pm

olle wrote:
It seems like the work of getting better border security moves forward;

Anyone entering EU by airflight, road or rail will in the future need to preregister;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... road-users


This is a big change compared to today.


And how does that stop an illegal in a boat crossing the Med?
 
THS214
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:57 pm

anrec80 wrote:

No social assistance, no free housing, no nothing else. These are the terms all other refugees in EU should be getting - if you do not want to attract "social" migrants.


So you want civil unrest in EU and more crimes. It's clear that you don't know law and why it exists and how it works. Social assistance and free housing should be bare minimum. Then language classes are important to integrate. Why you want to not even try integration? Some people integrate, some not. What you are suggesting is that no one should have a change. The problem is those who don't integrate. I agree. Send them where the come.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1976
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:35 pm

THS214 wrote:

So you want civil unrest in EU and more crimes. It's clear that you don't know law and why it exists and how it works.


I gave example of Ukrainians in Poland. They come there to work, without any housing and the likes. And I civil unrests whatsoever. It’s more about expectations management.

THS214 wrote:
Social assistance and free housing should be bare minimum.


Well - let’s say I am a middle class taxpayer constantly battling with ever increasing cost of living. And now someone who just came heck knows from where for a sake of welfare, at the expense of my own taxes, will compete with me for housing and jack its price up? Do you think I find it fair? I do not. And this has nothing to do with social justice, this is state-supported racketeering.

THS214 wrote:
Why you want to not even try integration?


I never said I am not against. One doesn’t affect the other. There are millions of people in the West who work at day time and work on their education, take classes in the evening. That includes language classes.
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1140
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:33 am

Kiwirob wrote:
olle wrote:
It seems like the work of getting better border security moves forward;

Anyone entering EU by airflight, road or rail will in the future need to preregister;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... road-users


This is a big change compared to today.


And how does that stop an illegal in a boat crossing the Med?


As I understand it the work is on different fronts;

Increase the quality of the border control with EU support and systems as mentioned.

As you say it does not stop the ships comng over but, as mentioned in the start, EU talks about support the front nations by taking refugees to start with in 14 nations. This also means that non refugees will be sent back earlier.
 
THS214
Posts: 186
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

So you want civil unrest in EU and more crimes. It's clear that you don't know law and why it exists and how it works.


I gave example of Ukrainians in Poland. They come there to work, without any housing and the likes. And I civil unrests whatsoever. It’s more about expectations management.

THS214 wrote:
Social assistance and free housing should be bare minimum.


Well - let’s say I am a middle class taxpayer constantly battling with ever increasing cost of living. And now someone who just came heck knows from where for a sake of welfare, at the expense of my own taxes, will compete with me for housing and jack its price up? Do you think I find it fair? I do not. And this has nothing to do with social justice, this is state-supported racketeering.

THS214 wrote:
Why you want to not even try integration?


I never said I am not against. One doesn’t affect the other. There are millions of people in the West who work at day time and work on their education, take classes in the evening. That includes language classes.


Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.

This is what you wrote:

Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.

First part I agree, but your post was not about Ukrainians in Poland. If you don't have money then you steal. No welfare, no social assistance means more crimes. Also, as a middle class taxpayer your housing cost wont go up.

If you read my earlier posts it clear that I am against welfare immigration (or whatever it is called). I am also against refugees from countries that have a track record of not integrating. In Finland for example Vietnamese integrated well, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians not so well.
 
olle
Topic Author
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:56 pm

THS214 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

So you want civil unrest in EU and more crimes. It's clear that you don't know law and why it exists and how it works.


I gave example of Ukrainians in Poland. They come there to work, without any housing and the likes. And I civil unrests whatsoever. It’s more about expectations management.

THS214 wrote:
Social assistance and free housing should be bare minimum.


Well - let’s say I am a middle class taxpayer constantly battling with ever increasing cost of living. And now someone who just came heck knows from where for a sake of welfare, at the expense of my own taxes, will compete with me for housing and jack its price up? Do you think I find it fair? I do not. And this has nothing to do with social justice, this is state-supported racketeering.

THS214 wrote:
Why you want to not even try integration?


I never said I am not against. One doesn’t affect the other. There are millions of people in the West who work at day time and work on their education, take classes in the evening. That includes language classes.


Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.

This is what you wrote:

Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.

First part I agree, but your post was not about Ukrainians in Poland. If you don't have money then you steal. No welfare, no social assistance means more crimes. Also, as a middle class taxpayer your housing cost wont go up.

If you read my earlier posts it clear that I am against welfare immigration (or whatever it is called). I am also against refugees from countries that have a track record of not integrating. In Finland for example Vietnamese integrated well, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians not so well.


Refugees "invasions" happens inbetween. Often it happens in connections with major conflicts.

In sweden we have during the last 100 years experienced these in 1940s with refugees from Finland, Norway, Denmark, Baltics, Jews from concentration camps, 1950s Hungary, 1960s Praha, 1970 Chile and south america, 1980s Iran, Poland, 1990s Ex yugoslavia, 2000 Somalia Afganistan, 2010s Syria.

Economical refugees: 1940s -> 1970s Finland, 1960-1970 Italian, Greece, 1980s Latin american etc, 1990-2020 Poland and Baltic states..

Swedish people was themself between 1860 and 1930s economocical refugees to special USA.

In 1944 Sweden recieved 140 000 refugees from Finland. Sweden had in that period a population of 4 million people.

Many in Sweden was very sceptical and still is.

But Sweden has gained dramatically of these people. In relations, exports by creating new industries. Partly by not being depending like finland on only a few big industries we got less effected by the last crisi in 2008 for example.

Today many countries that are most against to recieve refugees in Europe are often the ones that until recient been sending their own population abroad as refugees or economical refugees.

We easy forgets that major parts of Europe has been refugees or economical refugees during the last 100 years. Now after a long period of peace shall we then close the door for the countries that often opened the door when we needed help?
 
THS214
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:33 pm

olle wrote:
THS214 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

I gave example of Ukrainians in Poland. They come there to work, without any housing and the likes. And I civil unrests whatsoever. It’s more about expectations management.



Well - let’s say I am a middle class taxpayer constantly battling with ever increasing cost of living. And now someone who just came heck knows from where for a sake of welfare, at the expense of my own taxes, will compete with me for housing and jack its price up? Do you think I find it fair? I do not. And this has nothing to do with social justice, this is state-supported racketeering.



I never said I am not against. One doesn’t affect the other. There are millions of people in the West who work at day time and work on their education, take classes in the evening. That includes language classes.


Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.

This is what you wrote:

Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.

First part I agree, but your post was not about Ukrainians in Poland. If you don't have money then you steal. No welfare, no social assistance means more crimes. Also, as a middle class taxpayer your housing cost wont go up.

If you read my earlier posts it clear that I am against welfare immigration (or whatever it is called). I am also against refugees from countries that have a track record of not integrating. In Finland for example Vietnamese integrated well, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians not so well.


Refugees "invasions" happens inbetween. Often it happens in connections with major conflicts.

In sweden we have during the last 100 years experienced these in 1940s with refugees from Finland, Norway, Denmark, Baltics, Jews from concentration camps, 1950s Hungary, 1960s Praha, 1970 Chile and south america, 1980s Iran, Poland, 1990s Ex yugoslavia, 2000 Somalia Afganistan, 2010s Syria.

Economical refugees: 1940s -> 1970s Finland, 1960-1970 Italian, Greece, 1980s Latin american etc, 1990-2020 Poland and Baltic states..

Swedish people was themself between 1860 and 1930s economocical refugees to special USA.

In 1944 Sweden recieved 140 000 refugees from Finland. Sweden had in that period a population of 4 million people.

Many in Sweden was very sceptical and still is.

But Sweden has gained dramatically of these people. In relations, exports by creating new industries. Partly by not being depending like finland on only a few big industries we got less effected by the last crisi in 2008 for example.

Today many countries that are most against to recieve refugees in Europe are often the ones that until recient been sending their own population abroad as refugees or economical refugees.

We easy forgets that major parts of Europe has been refugees or economical refugees during the last 100 years. Now after a long period of peace shall we then close the door for the countries that often opened the door when we needed help?


In 1940s 72 000 children were sent to Sweden from Finland. When the war started Sweden told Finland that they can take Finnish children as part of Finlands sak är vår! (The Finnish cause is ours!). After the war 57 000 of these children returned to Finland and Finland thanked Sweden for their help. Later many Finns moved to Sweden as there were jobs available. These were not refugees. This movement helped both Sweden and Finland. Almost all of these people integrated well. That is my point. Finland and Sweden have so much in common. If Sweden ever get into a crisis (like war) Finland would be the first to help.

Few years ago Finland opened its border from Sweden for 35 000 refugees from Iraq and Syria even that was against the law. Between Finland and Sweden its both way street, we respect each others and I am sure that if Swedes move to Finland they would integrate well.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:26 pm

olle wrote:
THS214 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

I gave example of Ukrainians in Poland. They come there to work, without any housing and the likes. And I civil unrests whatsoever. It’s more about expectations management.



Well - let’s say I am a middle class taxpayer constantly battling with ever increasing cost of living. And now someone who just came heck knows from where for a sake of welfare, at the expense of my own taxes, will compete with me for housing and jack its price up? Do you think I find it fair? I do not. And this has nothing to do with social justice, this is state-supported racketeering.



I never said I am not against. One doesn’t affect the other. There are millions of people in the West who work at day time and work on their education, take classes in the evening. That includes language classes.


Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.

This is what you wrote:

Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.

First part I agree, but your post was not about Ukrainians in Poland. If you don't have money then you steal. No welfare, no social assistance means more crimes. Also, as a middle class taxpayer your housing cost wont go up.

If you read my earlier posts it clear that I am against welfare immigration (or whatever it is called). I am also against refugees from countries that have a track record of not integrating. In Finland for example Vietnamese integrated well, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians not so well.


Refugees "invasions" happens inbetween. Often it happens in connections with major conflicts.

In sweden we have during the last 100 years experienced these in 1940s with refugees from Finland, Norway, Denmark, Baltics, Jews from concentration camps, 1950s Hungary, 1960s Praha, 1970 Chile and south america, 1980s Iran, Poland, 1990s Ex yugoslavia, 2000 Somalia Afganistan, 2010s Syria.

Economical refugees: 1940s -> 1970s Finland, 1960-1970 Italian, Greece, 1980s Latin american etc, 1990-2020 Poland and Baltic states..

Swedish people was themself between 1860 and 1930s economocical refugees to special USA.

In 1944 Sweden recieved 140 000 refugees from Finland. Sweden had in that period a population of 4 million people.

Many in Sweden was very sceptical and still is.

But Sweden has gained dramatically of these people. In relations, exports by creating new industries. Partly by not being depending like finland on only a few big industries we got less effected by the last crisi in 2008 for example.

Today many countries that are most against to recieve refugees in Europe are often the ones that until recient been sending their own population abroad as refugees or economical refugees.

We easy forgets that major parts of Europe has been refugees or economical refugees during the last 100 years. Now after a long period of peace shall we then close the door for the countries that often opened the door when we needed help?


Most of those Finns were Swedish speaking Finns who are ethnically Swedish, they integrated easily, so did the Norwegians, one even became world famous as a member of ABBA.

When you take immigrants who are culturally similar then there are very few integration issues, whereas people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia don’t assimilate well at all. This has been proven over and over again in countless countries.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Remember that sweden and swizz in the 1930 was very anti semitic for example. Nazi germany wanted the jewish out. Sweden and swiss requested because the increasing number of refugees from germany that jews should be defined and germany pu the infamous J in the passport.

My father was a child in this period. He had hidden jewish friends refugees in school. They did not use their original names because of the risk of swedish nazi and german invasion.

They also had as you say many finnish child refugees. Most liked them some groups said that our oen problems should be solved before helpibg others.

Yes, the economical refugees after the war until 1970s helped sweden dramatically. The integration was not always simple. But after a few years the finnish was an integrated part of the swedish sociaty. So is the people from chile, hungary, iran, ex yugoslavia.

And this is my point. Swedish people and immigrants built the sweden we see today. Todays immigrants helps to build tomorrow sweden.

I agree that integration with some groups is more complicated then othersbut over time sweden has generally fixed this. With 68% of the workforce employed - 3 highest in the world, i donnot understand how the current refugees that are allowed and want to stay will not add to the future Sweden as well as people from finnland, hungary, chile etc has done before.

I understand italy, spain greece with high unemployment rates but som refugees must be possible to accept? The sharing between countries is up to discussing but this is an political and financial question.
 
THS214
Posts: 186
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
olle wrote:
THS214 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:
Just turn the boats away from Europe tow them back to where they cam from. I’d also send in special forces to sink them in port before the migrants use them. Shooting the smugglers would also be a good start, they’re little more then pirates praying on human misery.

This is what you wrote:

Agree 100%. And - to begin with - stop attracting them. Modernize immigration system. Don’t hesitate to kick out those who break the law. No welfare, no social assistance, no free housing. You came to a safe place - look for work, support yourself, pay taxes.

First part I agree, but your post was not about Ukrainians in Poland. If you don't have money then you steal. No welfare, no social assistance means more crimes. Also, as a middle class taxpayer your housing cost wont go up.

If you read my earlier posts it clear that I am against welfare immigration (or whatever it is called). I am also against refugees from countries that have a track record of not integrating. In Finland for example Vietnamese integrated well, Somalis, Iraqis and Syrians not so well.


Refugees "invasions" happens inbetween. Often it happens in connections with major conflicts.

In sweden we have during the last 100 years experienced these in 1940s with refugees from Finland, Norway, Denmark, Baltics, Jews from concentration camps, 1950s Hungary, 1960s Praha, 1970 Chile and south america, 1980s Iran, Poland, 1990s Ex yugoslavia, 2000 Somalia Afganistan, 2010s Syria.

Economical refugees: 1940s -> 1970s Finland, 1960-1970 Italian, Greece, 1980s Latin american etc, 1990-2020 Poland and Baltic states..

Swedish people was themself between 1860 and 1930s economocical refugees to special USA.

In 1944 Sweden recieved 140 000 refugees from Finland. Sweden had in that period a population of 4 million people.

Many in Sweden was very sceptical and still is.

But Sweden has gained dramatically of these people. In relations, exports by creating new industries. Partly by not being depending like finland on only a few big industries we got less effected by the last crisi in 2008 for example.

Today many countries that are most against to recieve refugees in Europe are often the ones that until recient been sending their own population abroad as refugees or economical refugees.

We easy forgets that major parts of Europe has been refugees or economical refugees during the last 100 years. Now after a long period of peace shall we then close the door for the countries that often opened the door when we needed help?


Most of those Finns were Swedish speaking Finns who are ethnically Swedish, they integrated easily, so did the Norwegians, one even became world famous as a member of ABBA.

When you take immigrants who are culturally similar then there are very few integration issues, whereas people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia don’t assimilate well at all. This has been proven over and over again in countless countries.


Agree with you but Asians usually integrate well at least in Finland.
 
THS214
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:09 pm

@olle

1940s Finland said no to nazis when they asked jews to be send to German.

Now a days Sweden has gun murders and gangs exponential of what it was before and there are areas where for example fire fighters and ambulances don't go before police. And even then police goes there with enforced manpower. Yugoslavia in a big reason. In Finland we don't have this problem yet and luckily we don't get it in the future.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:55 pm

THS214 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
olle wrote:

Refugees "invasions" happens inbetween. Often it happens in connections with major conflicts.

In sweden we have during the last 100 years experienced these in 1940s with refugees from Finland, Norway, Denmark, Baltics, Jews from concentration camps, 1950s Hungary, 1960s Praha, 1970 Chile and south america, 1980s Iran, Poland, 1990s Ex yugoslavia, 2000 Somalia Afganistan, 2010s Syria.

Economical refugees: 1940s -> 1970s Finland, 1960-1970 Italian, Greece, 1980s Latin american etc, 1990-2020 Poland and Baltic states..

Swedish people was themself between 1860 and 1930s economocical refugees to special USA.

In 1944 Sweden recieved 140 000 refugees from Finland. Sweden had in that period a population of 4 million people.

Many in Sweden was very sceptical and still is.

But Sweden has gained dramatically of these people. In relations, exports by creating new industries. Partly by not being depending like finland on only a few big industries we got less effected by the last crisi in 2008 for example.

Today many countries that are most against to recieve refugees in Europe are often the ones that until recient been sending their own population abroad as refugees or economical refugees.

We easy forgets that major parts of Europe has been refugees or economical refugees during the last 100 years. Now after a long period of peace shall we then close the door for the countries that often opened the door when we needed help?


Most of those Finns were Swedish speaking Finns who are ethnically Swedish, they integrated easily, so did the Norwegians, one even became world famous as a member of ABBA.

When you take immigrants who are culturally similar then there are very few integration issues, whereas people from the Middle East, Africa and Asia don’t assimilate well at all. This has been proven over and over again in countless countries.


Agree with you but Asians usually integrate well at least in Finland.


The original NZ Chinese who came over for the Otago
Gold Rush as as kiwi as any kiwi, but the Chinese who started to poor in NZ in the 90’s up to today live quote separately from rest of NZ, it’s like a country within a country.
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:37 pm

THS214 wrote:
@olle

1940s Finland said no to nazis when they asked jews to be send to German.

Now a days Sweden has gun murders and gangs exponential of what it was before and there are areas where for example fire fighters and ambulances don't go before police. And even then police goes there with enforced manpower. Yugoslavia in a big reason. In Finland we don't have this problem yet and luckily we don't get it in the future.



Well as i think i have mentioned earlier Sweden has got a little bit more then 100 murders since late 1960 annd that with a population 40% bigger 2019 then late 1960s.


We have a situation where general people stop drinking vodka and start drinking wine meaning that in middleclass sweden violence is much lower today then at any time earlier in history.

Yes we have a problem with som criminal gangs chooting at each other and too often succeds in their intentions.


According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate Finland has 2.2 murder per 100000 people per year while sweden ha 1 murder per 100000 people per year. Why is Finland so violent?


What makes Finland that historical has a low immigration, nearly no mafia from ex yugoslavia or russia having a murder rate that is 120% higher then sweden? Finnish people in sweden has also a high representation in crimes related to violence.
 
THS214
Posts: 186
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:53 pm

According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate Finland has 2.2 murder per 100000 people per year while sweden ha 1 murder per 100000 people per year. Why is Finland so violent?[/quote]

Easy to answer. Finland is more agriculture than Sweden. Therefore here stuff that you can have to kill is more available. Finland also have a history of war therefore we are not all learnt to live in peace. After all, all the Swedish wars in history were fought by Finns. ;)

In Finland most of homicides historically are done when people are drunk and they have knife or something like available.

Now explain why rapes have increased over 50% in the last couple years?
 
THS214
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:03 pm

Finnish people in sweden has also a high representation in crimes related to violence.

The number is so low that no statistics can be made.

Ever thought that those violent people have escaped to Sweden because there they are not looked after?
 
olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:16 pm

THS214 wrote:
According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate Finland has 2.2 murder per 100000 people per year while sweden ha 1 murder per 100000 people per year. Why is Finland so violent?


Easy to answer. Finland is more agriculture than Sweden. Therefore here stuff that you can have to kill is more available. Finland also have a history of war therefore we are not all learnt to live in peace. After all, all the Swedish wars in history were fought by Finns. ;)

In Finland most of homicides historically are done when people are drunk and they have knife or something like available.

Now explain why rapes have increased over 50% in the last couple years?[/quote]


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime ... al-europe/


First here it says that rapen in sweden has not increased. This seems to be another alternative thruth created by people for different purpose.

What is true is that sexual haressment has increased and that swedish police has been educated to make reports on it. I can make a bet that while #metoo happend in sweden before the rest of the world after #metoo we will se this number increase in many countries the next years. Many men including mr Trump would be standing in front of court if they lived in sweden.
 
THS214
Posts: 186
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:53 pm

olle wrote:
THS214 wrote:
According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate Finland has 2.2 murder per 100000 people per year while sweden ha 1 murder per 100000 people per year. Why is Finland so violent?


Easy to answer. Finland is more agriculture than Sweden. Therefore here stuff that you can have to kill is more available. Finland also have a history of war therefore we are not all learnt to live in peace. After all, all the Swedish wars in history were fought by Finns. ;)

In Finland most of homicides historically are done when people are drunk and they have knife or something like available.

Now explain why rapes have increased over 50% in the last couple years?



[/quote]://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/


First here it says that rapen in sweden has not increased. This seems to be another alternative thruth created by people for different purpose.

What is true is that sexual haressment has increased and that swedish police has been educated to make reports on it. I can make a bet that while #metoo happend in sweden before the rest of the world after #metoo we will se this number increase in many countries the next years. Many men including mr Trump would be standing in front of court if they lived in sweden.[/quote]

I was talking about Finland there's the misunderstanding.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:18 am

I worked in periods in Finland. 1999 for Radiolinja and 2016 stora enso both in the area of Helsinki.

I felt that during this more then 15 years Sweden had become a very optimistic nation but in Finland 2016 was surching for what will happen next.

I consider that the development of Stockholm and sweden is partly because of the immigrant. The international company i work for have both engineers and industrial workers from all the places that refugees has come from. Many start in the factory and after a few years continue in university and comes back as engineers or commercial area.

Of course it takes time for some refugees to get into work, but after 10-15 years a major part has jobs.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 pm

Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But in principle, yes they should return home, in the Netherlands you get refugee status for 5 years and if possible, you need to return to your country of origin. In practice though, most conflicts aren't solved within 5 years. And it would be inhumane to send someone back after 10 years or so, they too should be able to build a life for themselves, wouldn't you say. Or do you prefer a group of people just sitting and waiting there, not be able to progress?

Simple solution: let those who have progressed in building a life for themselves by progressing in education or having a job stay and return those who even after more than 5 years didn't make any progress or were involved in criminal activity.

:checkmark: makes sense to me
First to fly the 787-9
 
blueflyer
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:26 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Poland should accept immigrants to a point where the net migration flux to/from the EU is zero.

They did accept tons of migrants from Ukraine, which happens to be in Europe (helping fellow Europeans). It's not their problem, that in today's EU narrative the only immigration that apparently counts is muslim one and that the Europe is designated dumping ground for third world's surplus population from failed countries like Pakistan or Nigeria.

So Christians good, Muslims bad? Is that what it is coming down to?

Religion aside, the situation is Poland's problem to the extent that it is a member of the EU. It should either convince enough other EU states to side with them next time they meet in Brussels, or, as I mentioned before, ask Boris, Theresa, and David how to work out Article 50...

No doubt there needs to be EU wide reforms on immigrations. To be fair, most of the blame rests on the EU that rushed to admit Poland far earlier than they should have, and that, to this date, has failed to put in place working mechanisms to make sure that member states do not have their cake and eat it... Poland's attitude that it is everybody else's problem is not the solution, especially from a country that has dumped its surplus labor from its failed economic system on other EU members! One day Poland will need help from other EU members above and beyond what they are committed to by current treaties, and they will not like the answer.

L410Turbolet wrote:
Are you French by any chance?

What I am is very curious as to what lead to this question...
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:14 pm

blueflyer wrote:
So Christians good, Muslims bad? Is that what it is coming down to?

Religion aside, the situation is Poland's problem to the extent that it is a member of the EU. It should either convince enough other EU states to side with them next time they meet in Brussels, or, as I mentioned before, ask Boris, Theresa, and David how to work out Article 50...

No doubt there needs to be EU wide reforms on immigrations. To be fair, most of the blame rests on the EU that rushed to admit Poland far earlier than they should have, and that, to this date, has failed to put in place working mechanisms to make sure that member states do not have their cake and eat it... Poland's attitude that it is everybody else's problem is not the solution, especially from a country that has dumped its surplus labor from its failed economic system on other EU members! One day Poland will need help from other EU members above and beyond what they are committed to by current treaties, and they will not like the answer.



So you're saying that uncontrolled influx of illegal migrants is not a problem, just unwillingness of some EU members to take them is? So if the migrants don't pose a problem, then why to distribute them?
As far as "surplus labor from its failed economic system dumped on other EU members" is concerned, how many of the polish migrants to other EU countries don't work? And how many of the 2015+ extra-EU migrants do work? And why is Germany working on a skilled worker immigration program if the influx of polish workers is causing problems? And I'm curious, really curious how many of the migrants would choose Poland as a target country when Dublin gets changed? My guess would be something around 0.001%.
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olle
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:31 am

A interesting article in NY Times


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/worl ... e=Homepage


This is reflecting many of the postings here
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:54 am

The countries that don't want any shouldn't take any. the NGOs are involved in organized crime and should be treated as such with lengthy prison sentences. The ships should be properly sunk and used as diving wrecks. The EU Parliament as an entity deserves the mess for their incompetence, the individual countries do not. I hope the EU 'state' crumbles and this forces countries to re access their membership and either leave or force change to the terms and breadth of membership.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU plan to distribute refugees / migrants

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 am

aerorobnz wrote:
The countries that don't want any shouldn't take any. the NGOs are involved in organized crime and should be treated as such with lengthy prison sentences. The ships should be properly sunk and used as diving wrecks. The EU Parliament as an entity deserves the mess for their incompetence, the individual countries do not. I hope the EU 'state' crumbles and this forces countries to re access their membership and either leave or force change to the terms and breadth of membership.


Such a great nuanced post, well done.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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