BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:59 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Oh, you know. Anyone who pretends that this is about equality and economic development and blah blah when it's really just about petty vindictiveness driven by an inferiority complex traceable to wrongs committed hundreds of years ago.

Oh, we all know that for you, the equality of every citizen before the law does not matter. Socio-economic development does not matter. Even the prosperity of Muslims isn't your business. All you care about, is the retention of a set of nonsensical laws, complete with a country within a country, all for ONE subgroup of people amounting to 8 million in all.

These people, whose cause you so gallantly espouse, are allegedly so fragile and lacking in any sort of cultural strength that the very presence of other people in their midst is enough to destroy their uniqueness. Strangely enough, that doesn't happen to any of the tens of thousands of other similarly small subgroups e.g.
* Coorgis - whose population is about 6% of the Kashmiri Muslim population, and yet they retain a continuous a storied tradition of military involvement, arts, cuisine and high life (Madikeri is an excellent holiday spot).
* Parsis - even smaller in numbers, dominating the business world
* Marwaris
* Chettiars
* Gurkhas
* Dawoodi Bohras
* Iyers/Iyengars
... a few thousand more

Funnily enough, none of these little minorities have EVER had anything like Article 370 to protect them, and yet they haven't been 'ethnically cleansed'. But hey let's all take switch off our brains and pretend none of that matters, because Kashmiri Muslims - only that one small subgroup - Kashmiri Muslims - are SPECIAL, according to you , and removing Article 370 is all about screwing them over. All the other communities - including mine - therefore came... pre-screwed over ? :shock:
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:16 am

And the commercial push begins:
Maharashtra govt plans MTDC resorts in Ladakh, Kashmir
With the scrapping of Article 370 opening fresh avenues of investment in Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh, Maharashtra government is looking forward to quickly grab the opportunity and open resorts in the region under the aegis of Maharashtra Tourism Development Corporation (MTDC).

Applauding the repealing of Article 370, state's tourism minister and Chairman of MTDC Jaykumar Rawal told ANI, "I would like to welcome the abolition of Article 370. It gives immense opportunity to Maharashtra Tourism Development Corporation. As a company, we look at opportunities where we can build resorts. We find that in Kashmir and Ladakh, two new opportunities have opened up. MTDC would be interested in buying properties, investing in hotels and hospitality segment in Kashmir and Ladakh."

"We are looking at a full resort with three-four star facilities. We have a lot of tourists from Maharashtra travelling to Jammu and Kashmir. People are very excited with the idea of safely travelling in Kashmir", he added.


Meanwhile:
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindi ... ar-AAFr7jM
J&K Speaker Nirmal Singh removes state flag from his official car
Image
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:07 am

It sad Kashmiri people can't even go out after certain hours, have normal life. What kind of Military ties of up a human on the front of the Military jeep, and drives around the city. This type violence, and injustice is caused by far right wing governments like Modi who is personally responsible for killing his own citizen in Gujarat state. Governments like that are no different then what goes on in the States, with shootings, and racist rhetoric we find out they're die heart Trump supporters, and what does Trump do embrace this non sense bigotry. Same goes on in Hindustan, with racist attacks against other religious minorities for eating meat or just simply being themselves, exactly why 2 state theory was best. Of course some Indian will come on here defending this bigotry. The Kashmiri want freedom whether that means joining Pakistan, India, or being independent unfortunately instead of peaceful talking certain governments decide to ignore, and act like a child.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:30 am

LH658 wrote:
It sad Kashmiri people can't even go out after certain hours, have normal life. What kind of Military ties of up a human on the front of the Military jeep, and drives around the city. This type violence, and injustice is caused by far right wing governments like Modi who is personally responsible for killing his own citizen in Gujarat state. Governments like that are no different then what goes on in the States, with shootings, and racist rhetoric we find out they're die heart Trump supporters, and what does Trump do embrace this non sense bigotry. Same goes on in Hindustan, with racist attacks against other religious minorities for eating meat or just simply being themselves, exactly why 2 state theory was best. Of course some Indian will come on here defending this bigotry. The Kashmiri want freedom whether that means joining Pakistan, India, or being independent unfortunately instead of peaceful talking certain governments decide to ignore, and act like a child.


None of what you mentioned is true. Reading ISI propaganda is not the solution. Remove your tinfoil hat and read widely and you might get exposed to a world outside what ISI wants you to believe. A country which is owned by an army, which couldn't remain democratic for even a decade after independence, where power is controlled by army has brainwashed their countrymen. The only country I think which sponsors terrorism as state policy among all its neighbours, which involved in genocide of its own population to the point that they fought a way and broke away from the parent country.

Maybe time for you to look inwards within your country where the army controls everything, would be better. You guys raped and killed thousands of people in Bangladesh, and are doing the same in Balochistan. You interfered in Afghanistan, had ties to 9/11 bombers and sponsoring terorrism against Iran too. Along all this, they had more than 11 bailouts from IMF. One would think they would look inwards and develop their country instead of interfering in other countries, but they don't seem to learn. And pakistanis for some reason don't respond well to democracy and are used to being whipped by the khakis. You guys started 4 wars unnecessarily and lost all four. Even your all weather friend China advised you to focus on economy first, but doesn't seem to have gone into the boneheads of the army.

Bhutto famously said they would eat grass but develop a nuclear bomb. Looking at the way pakistan is going around begging for aid from everyone every few years, his words have come true. How does inflation of greater than 13% and interest rates of greater than 10% sound? Hope you guys are enjoying the 24-hour gas and power supply . Poor Imran, having to fix the prices of rotis , as thats the only power the army has thought fit to give him.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:43 am

blrsea wrote:
LH658 wrote:
It sad Kashmiri people can't even go out after certain hours, have normal life. What kind of Military ties of up a human on the front of the Military jeep, and drives around the city. This type violence, and injustice is caused by far right wing governments like Modi who is personally responsible for killing his own citizen in Gujarat state. Governments like that are no different then what goes on in the States, with shootings, and racist rhetoric we find out they're die heart Trump supporters, and what does Trump do embrace this non sense bigotry. Same goes on in Hindustan, with racist attacks against other religious minorities for eating meat or just simply being themselves, exactly why 2 state theory was best. Of course some Indian will come on here defending this bigotry. The Kashmiri want freedom whether that means joining Pakistan, India, or being independent unfortunately instead of peaceful talking certain governments decide to ignore, and act like a child.


None of what you mentioned is true. Reading ISI propaganda is not the solution. Remove your tinfoil hat and read widely and you might get exposed to a world outside what ISI wants you to believe. A country which is owned by an army, which couldn't remain democratic for even a decade after independence, where power is controlled by army has brainwashed their countrymen. The only country I think which sponsors terrorism as state policy among all its neighbours, which involved in genocide of its own population to the point that they fought a way and broke away from the parent country.

Maybe time for you to look inwards within your country where the army controls everything, would be better. You guys raped and killed thousands of people in Bangladesh, and are doing the same in Balochistan. You interfered in Afghanistan, had ties to 9/11 bombers and sponsoring terorrism against Iran too. Along all this, they had more than 11 bailouts from IMF. One would think they would look inwards and develop their country instead of interfering in other countries, but they don't seem to learn. And pakistanis for some reason don't respond well to democracy and are used to being whipped by the khakis. You guys started 4 wars unnecessarily and lost all four. Even your all weather friend China advised you to focus on economy first, but doesn't seem to have gone into the boneheads of the army.

Bhutto famously said they would eat grass but develop a nuclear bomb. Looking at the way pakistan is going around begging for aid from everyone every few years, his words have come true. How does inflation of greater than 13% and interest rates of greater than 10% sound? Hope you guys are enjoying the 24-hour gas and power supply . Poor Imran, having to fix the prices of rotis , as thats the only power the army has thought fit to give him.


It okay atleast we don't let white women come to our country, only expecting to get raped constantly.

Let Pakistan do Pakistan, let talk on topic of Kashmir which what I was addressing about. You guy's seem to have issue with your neighbor never want peace in region.... We just took your daughter Khulbhushavn to ICC, and you guys still acted like you won something. Infact Khulbushan won't be returned. State sponsor terrorism is what India doing allowing the public to beat people for no reason cause they thought they were living in secular state, and that they can continue with their life. Many evidence out their of how India promoting or supporting State sponsor terrorism, you have issue with anything your neighbor does, Pakistan wants to develop a deep sea port, what does India do go next door to Iran tries do the same, but fails.

Anyways lets talk on current terms of the present something it seems very difficult for you, just like your media can't contain themselves.

Just look how America is listening to PM Khan about Afghanistan.
Last edited by LH658 on Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:51 am

All Hindustan wants to do point finger at other countries, and their conditions that have no business of theirs. Keep insisting other countries are attacking versus even accepting their own mistakes, and problems. Versus working towards dialogue, versus looking at the current opportunities they have, and how the region can progress, but instead Hindu vendetta is more important.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11665
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:24 am

I don't know enough to really have an opinion. Obviously what China is doing in Tibet (and now in its Muslim parts) is wrong, but that's not just letting people relocate freely to these regions. It's above all oppressing the "native" population, banning their culture, etc. If that isn't done, I really don't see the problem with letting Indians move to another part of their country, just like I can, as a French citizen, move to Guadeloupe, Réunion, New Caledonia or Tahiti, without asking permission from anyone. We are all humans, and creating all these divisions doesn't help people embrace this reality. India has also the issue of the caste system...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:05 am

LH658 wrote:
blrsea wrote:
LH658 wrote:
It sad Kashmiri people can't even go out after certain hours, have normal life. What kind of Military ties of up a human on the front of the Military jeep, and drives around the city. This type violence, and injustice is caused by far right wing governments like Modi who is personally responsible for killing his own citizen in Gujarat state. Governments like that are no different then what goes on in the States, with shootings, and racist rhetoric we find out they're die heart Trump supporters, and what does Trump do embrace this non sense bigotry. Same goes on in Hindustan, with racist attacks against other religious minorities for eating meat or just simply being themselves, exactly why 2 state theory was best. Of course some Indian will come on here defending this bigotry. The Kashmiri want freedom whether that means joining Pakistan, India, or being independent unfortunately instead of peaceful talking certain governments decide to ignore, and act like a child.


None of what you mentioned is true. Reading ISI propaganda is not the solution. Remove your tinfoil hat and read widely and you might get exposed to a world outside what ISI wants you to believe. A country which is owned by an army, which couldn't remain democratic for even a decade after independence, where power is controlled by army has brainwashed their countrymen. The only country I think which sponsors terrorism as state policy among all its neighbours, which involved in genocide of its own population to the point that they fought a way and broke away from the parent country.

Maybe time for you to look inwards within your country where the army controls everything, would be better. You guys raped and killed thousands of people in Bangladesh, and are doing the same in Balochistan. You interfered in Afghanistan, had ties to 9/11 bombers and sponsoring terorrism against Iran too. Along all this, they had more than 11 bailouts from IMF. One would think they would look inwards and develop their country instead of interfering in other countries, but they don't seem to learn. And pakistanis for some reason don't respond well to democracy and are used to being whipped by the khakis. You guys started 4 wars unnecessarily and lost all four. Even your all weather friend China advised you to focus on economy first, but doesn't seem to have gone into the boneheads of the army.

Bhutto famously said they would eat grass but develop a nuclear bomb. Looking at the way pakistan is going around begging for aid from everyone every few years, his words have come true. How does inflation of greater than 13% and interest rates of greater than 10% sound? Hope you guys are enjoying the 24-hour gas and power supply . Poor Imran, having to fix the prices of rotis , as thats the only power the army has thought fit to give him.


It okay atleast we don't let white women come to our country, only expecting to get raped constantly.

Let Pakistan do Pakistan, let talk on topic of Kashmir which what I was addressing about. You guy's seem to have issue with your neighbor never want peace in region.... We just took your daughter Khulbhushavn to ICC, and you guys still acted like you won something. Infact Khulbushan won't be returned. State sponsor terrorism is what India doing allowing the public to beat people for no reason cause they thought they were living in secular state, and that they can continue with their life. Many evidence out their of how India promoting or supporting State sponsor terrorism, you have issue with anything your neighbor does, Pakistan wants to develop a deep sea port, what does India do go next door to Iran tries do the same, but fails.

Anyways lets talk on current terms of the present something it seems very difficult for you, just like your media can't contain themselves.

Just look how America is listening to PM Khan about Afghanistan.


Dude, you seem to have access to internet. Look at what actually happened in the ICC case, if you can understand it. The judgement is publicly accessible. You can see what pakistan was protesting about, and what the judgement was. Don't go by reading the urdu news in your newspapers. A country which was hiding Osama under the eyes of Army HQ in Rawalpindi is in no state to blame others of terrorism. Everyone knows how the ISI behaves. There have been multiple news reports of ISI forcing channels/newspapers to rein in news.

America is looking at Pakistan to rein in Taliban and bringing them to peace table. Taliban, a terrorist medivial organization created & supported by Pakistan. You should be ashamed of having created such barbarians. You talk about it like its some kind of goodness? Its like police telling mafia don to rein in his men. America has Pakistan by the balls, if they don't cooperate, you will not get the IMF loans even. You have already pledged lots of land to China in CPEC corridor, and no one really knows the terms of the loan.

And you guys want to support terrorism everywhere! Good luck with that!
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:20 am

blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:

I posted that letter to show that even muslims welcome creation of Ladakh Union Territory (which wouldn't have been possible without repealing Art 370). Ladakh is a huge area and I don't think such large areas will be declared tribal. Pockets of areas have been declared tribal before in many states.

I don't object to humanism, only using that as a facade to further their arguments. You know like the US conservatives who oppose homosexuals but are themselves gay? Those liberals who want freedom of speech to everyone but don't tolerate anyone questioning them?

It is hard to find genuine humanists who fact based and balanced in their views want genuinely every person to be treated fairly, instead heaving tilting one side or the other based on their biases & claiming to be humanists.


Except that they're welcoming it in the hope of turning Ladakh into a tribal area, presumably because that brings some protections back. They're not welcoming it it on its own merits.

Based on your non- answer. I get the feeling that you didn't actually read past the first few lines. It doesn't actually say what you thought it said, does it? Haha.

Yeah, I don't know what you mean about Republican conservatives and liberals and Humanism (the former tend to be pretty dogmatic Christians - the antithesis of humanism), but whatever floats your boat. When you get around to learning more (well, anything) about Humanism, we can discuss it in detail.


No where in that letter are they basing their welcome on the area getting tribal area. They have welcomed it twice in the letter, at the every end too. But jaundiced eyes and all, so thats par for the course.

I have read about Humanism to understand that whatever you are spouting doesn't relate to humanism in any way. Its like Trump claiming he is liberal. Just saying it doesn't make one liberal, their actions do. Hope you now understood my references to repulbicans and liberals, and you claiming to be a humanist. You can claim whatever you want to be, doesn't mean people take you on your claims.


It literally says "request and demand for whole Ladakh region to be designated as tribal area".

Since you're embracing this letter in its entirety, it's fair to assume you support that too. Or are you cherry-picking?

I still don't follow the rest. Trump is now a liberal?

I don't care if people take me up on my claims. Play the ball, not the man bro. Ad hominem attacks are for schoolchildren.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:35 am

blrsea wrote:
LH658 wrote:
blrsea wrote:

None of what you mentioned is true. Reading ISI propaganda is not the solution. Remove your tinfoil hat and read widely and you might get exposed to a world outside what ISI wants you to believe. A country which is owned by an army, which couldn't remain democratic for even a decade after independence, where power is controlled by army has brainwashed their countrymen. The only country I think which sponsors terrorism as state policy among all its neighbours, which involved in genocide of its own population to the point that they fought a way and broke away from the parent country.

Maybe time for you to look inwards within your country where the army controls everything, would be better. You guys raped and killed thousands of people in Bangladesh, and are doing the same in Balochistan. You interfered in Afghanistan, had ties to 9/11 bombers and sponsoring terorrism against Iran too. Along all this, they had more than 11 bailouts from IMF. One would think they would look inwards and develop their country instead of interfering in other countries, but they don't seem to learn. And pakistanis for some reason don't respond well to democracy and are used to being whipped by the khakis. You guys started 4 wars unnecessarily and lost all four. Even your all weather friend China advised you to focus on economy first, but doesn't seem to have gone into the boneheads of the army.

Bhutto famously said they would eat grass but develop a nuclear bomb. Looking at the way pakistan is going around begging for aid from everyone every few years, his words have come true. How does inflation of greater than 13% and interest rates of greater than 10% sound? Hope you guys are enjoying the 24-hour gas and power supply . Poor Imran, having to fix the prices of rotis , as thats the only power the army has thought fit to give him.


It okay atleast we don't let white women come to our country, only expecting to get raped constantly.

Let Pakistan do Pakistan, let talk on topic of Kashmir which what I was addressing about. You guy's seem to have issue with your neighbor never want peace in region.... We just took your daughter Khulbhushavn to ICC, and you guys still acted like you won something. Infact Khulbushan won't be returned. State sponsor terrorism is what India doing allowing the public to beat people for no reason cause they thought they were living in secular state, and that they can continue with their life. Many evidence out their of how India promoting or supporting State sponsor terrorism, you have issue with anything your neighbor does, Pakistan wants to develop a deep sea port, what does India do go next door to Iran tries do the same, but fails.

Anyways lets talk on current terms of the present something it seems very difficult for you, just like your media can't contain themselves.

Just look how America is listening to PM Khan about Afghanistan.


Dude, you seem to have access to internet. Look at what actually happened in the ICC case, if you can understand it. The judgement is publicly accessible. You can see what pakistan was protesting about, and what the judgement was. Don't go by reading the urdu news in your newspapers. A country which was hiding Osama under the eyes of Army HQ in Rawalpindi is in no state to blame others of terrorism. Everyone knows how the ISI behaves. There have been multiple news reports of ISI forcing channels/newspapers to rein in news.

America is looking at Pakistan to rein in Taliban and bringing them to peace table. Taliban, a terrorist medivial organization created & supported by Pakistan. You should be ashamed of having created such barbarians. You talk about it like its some kind of goodness? Its like police telling mafia don to rein in his men. America has Pakistan by the balls, if they don't cooperate, you will not get the IMF loans even. You have already pledged lots of land to China in CPEC corridor, and no one really knows the terms of the loan.

And you guys want to support terrorism everywhere! Good luck with that!


Sorry I forgot in the Soviet Afghan war, Pakistan was the one fighting the Soviets, or was America fighting the Soviets? Taliban was created due to all these Warlords in Afghanistan, with no leadership and no rebuilding of the country. It was America mistake they known that, American brought Taliban to DC and cities like Houston, cause energy mining companies had interest in Afghanistan, and Taliban didn't care to cooperate. Now the Taliban still attacks innocent people, or foreign forces and at the same time hold peace talks with the US, seems like US fell into their hands on negotiation.

Pakistan didn't have anything to do with Taliban, it was America idea start this war, and asked Pakistani for help not India. Now they want to get out asap, Anyways talk on current topic Kashmir. Quit sniffing cow dung, stop pointing fingers, and look at your country first. Don't act like HIndustan is a peace loving place that nothing goes on, and cows get chauffeured in Rolls Royces live in Royal Palaces in Jaipur, You have PM that's a crook. Quit eating that cow dung!

Obama had election coming up, he pulled up with stunt, and then apparently dropped OBL body in a Ocean.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:42 am

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Except that they're welcoming it in the hope of turning Ladakh into a tribal area, presumably because that brings some protections back. They're not welcoming it it on its own merits.

Based on your non- answer. I get the feeling that you didn't actually read past the first few lines. It doesn't actually say what you thought it said, does it? Haha.

Yeah, I don't know what you mean about Republican conservatives and liberals and Humanism (the former tend to be pretty dogmatic Christians - the antithesis of humanism), but whatever floats your boat. When you get around to learning more (well, anything) about Humanism, we can discuss it in detail.


No where in that letter are they basing their welcome on the area getting tribal area. They have welcomed it twice in the letter, at the every end too. But jaundiced eyes and all, so thats par for the course.

I have read about Humanism to understand that whatever you are spouting doesn't relate to humanism in any way. Its like Trump claiming he is liberal. Just saying it doesn't make one liberal, their actions do. Hope you now understood my references to repulbicans and liberals, and you claiming to be a humanist. You can claim whatever you want to be, doesn't mean people take you on your claims.


It literally says "request and demand for whole Ladakh region to be designated as tribal area".

Since you're embracing this letter in its entirety, it's fair to assume you support that too. Or are you cherry-picking?

I still don't follow the rest. Trump is now a liberal?

I don't care if people take me up on my claims. Play the ball, not the man bro. Ad hominem attacks are for schoolchildren.


You can play with words for all you want. The letter explicitly thanks the PM for making Ladakh a UT. It is an additional request to grant tribal status too. No where does the letter say "we welcome Ladakh being UT only if we get tribal status". The government is free to decide on the merits of the case.

You can act dense on whether you got my message or not. You are not kidding anyone here by your childish acts. You can claim to be a superhero, god, humanist or an ass. People will judge by your actions.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:45 am

Hindustan Kashmiri politicians are locked up, no internet, curfew imposed, school shut down etc, this is democracy? The Kashmiri politicians that worked with Hindustan now get betrayed like this? Kashmir on both side deserve a vote where they would like to settle independent, India, or Pakistan.... Not forcefully annexed by Hindu vendetta, by PM who killed his own people, and was allowed to enter other countries. Kashmir back in the 1940's was over 75% Muslim, I think we know then where Kashmir clearly belong to, though unfortunately Hindustan never allowed such referendum to be taken place. Kashmir is a disputed region, and should be handled with dignity, though Hindustan fail to realize this.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:51 am

BarfBag wrote:
Oh, we all know that for you, the equality of every citizen before the law does not matter. Socio-economic development does not matter. Even the prosperity of Muslims isn't your business. All you care about, is the retention of a set of nonsensical laws, complete with a country within a country, all for ONE subgroup of people amounting to 8 million in all.

These people, whose cause you so gallantly espouse, are allegedly so fragile and lacking in any sort of cultural strength that the very presence of other people in their midst is enough to destroy their uniqueness. Strangely enough, that doesn't happen to any of the tens of thousands of other similarly small subgroups e.g.
* Coorgis - whose population is about 6% of the Kashmiri Muslim population, and yet they retain a continuous a storied tradition of military involvement, arts, cuisine and high life (Madikeri is an excellent holiday spot).
* Parsis - even smaller in numbers, dominating the business world
* Marwaris
* Chettiars
* Gurkhas
* Dawoodi Bohras
* Iyers/Iyengars
... a few thousand more

Funnily enough, none of these little minorities have EVER had anything like Article 370 to protect them, and yet they haven't been 'ethnically cleansed'. But hey let's all take switch off our brains and pretend none of that matters, because Kashmiri Muslims - only that one small subgroup - Kashmiri Muslims - are SPECIAL, according to you , and removing Article 370 is all about screwing them over. All the other communities - including mine - therefore came... pre-screwed over ? :shock:


One sub-group? Nah. I'll keep arguing in favour of 371 for Mizoram, Nagaland etc. And the northeast in general. You know, some of those conflict-ridden places with small populations.

Or to be more direct, all those sub-groups whose equality, economic development blah blah you clearly don't care about because of your obsession with one group of 8 million Muslims in Kashmir. (Two can play that game).

When they come for 371, you can bet your last rupee I'll be there. But this thread isn't about 371. Its about 370. Which, by its nature, affects one segment of the population more than others.

As to fragility, I don't how anyone objective can compare a population that's spent 30 years in conflict to groups elsewhere in India who've had the benefit of relative peace and stability. It isnt a valid comparison.

Nagaland, with its many insurgencies, is a more valid comparison. Ask them what they think of stripping their special protections.

Come to think of it - and correct me if I'm wrong - but weren't you one of the guys staunchly supporting the no go law - and all the special protections therein - afforded to that less-than-friendly tribal group in Andaman that killed a missionary for having the temerity to show up on their island.

I guess you don't care about their equality, economic development blah blah. Because of your obsession with one group.

Try again.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:55 am

LH658 wrote:
Hindustan Kashmiri politicians are locked up, no internet, curfew imposed, school shut down etc, this is democracy? The Kashmiri politicians that worked with Hindustan now get betrayed like this? Kashmir on both side deserve a vote where they would like to settle independent, India, or Pakistan.... Not forcefully annexed by Hindu vendetta, by PM who killed his own people, and was allowed to enter other countries. Kashmir back in the 1940's was over 75% Muslim, I think we know then where Kashmir clearly belong to, though unfortunately Hindustan never allowed such referendum to be taken place. Kashmir is a disputed region, and should be handled with dignity, though Hindustan fail to realize this.


To quote, well, you, let India do India. Go worry sort out LeT and the Pakistani military's party mix of Jihadis and other terrorists. Just taking care of those nihilists will improve the living situation for all Kashmiris. Indeed all humanity.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:09 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Hindustan Kashmiri politicians are locked up, no internet, curfew imposed, school shut down etc, this is democracy? The Kashmiri politicians that worked with Hindustan now get betrayed like this? Kashmir on both side deserve a vote where they would like to settle independent, India, or Pakistan.... Not forcefully annexed by Hindu vendetta, by PM who killed his own people, and was allowed to enter other countries. Kashmir back in the 1940's was over 75% Muslim, I think we know then where Kashmir clearly belong to, though unfortunately Hindustan never allowed such referendum to be taken place. Kashmir is a disputed region, and should be handled with dignity, though Hindustan fail to realize this.


To quote, well, you, let India do India. Go worry sort out LeT and the Pakistani military's party mix of Jihadis and other terrorists. Just taking care of those nihilists will improve the living situation for all Kashmiris. Indeed all humanity.


Just like you will say Pakistan is this that etc support this that etc, is the same how other countries do to each other, so quit this Hindu vendetta trying act like this is something new, that the whole World doesn't know about. India also has militancy groups that are active whether belong Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and etc. At least I don't have a Prime Minster that's a fool, and has blood on his hand. It okay Hindustani still think their right even when their wrong, just look at the media I don't whats worse watching Sean Hannity on Fox or Rahul on India TV. Lay off the cow dung, start looking at the reality of what is promised to the Kashmiris, you annexed Kashmir without even asking them, no vote from citizens in Kashmir. Look at the reality you have administration in Pakistan led by Imran Khan who first message was peaceful progressive with India, What does India do? Oh Hey we got a election let me sniff that cow dung, start promoting Anti Pakistan, anti democracy so I can win a election. Let me act like a 5 year old not acknowledge my mistakes, let me act like 5 year old who Dad didn't give him a candy bar so I am gunna ignore, and misbehave. The World condemn your media, you guys were embarrassed about other claims few years ago what happen in Kashmir area about some "attack" that never happened, back in Feb apparently you killed 300 people, but was all bunch of trees, your own opposition parties stood against you drop the cow dung, and said this just Modi plan stunt to win a election. It okay Bollywood bored you guys need to make another film it seems. It sad cow dung crisis's affect, people hires a PM that has blood on his hand, and kills his own soldiers, to get some votes for his 2nd term.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:30 pm

blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:

No where in that letter are they basing their welcome on the area getting tribal area. They have welcomed it twice in the letter, at the every end too. But jaundiced eyes and all, so thats par for the course.

I have read about Humanism to understand that whatever you are spouting doesn't relate to humanism in any way. Its like Trump claiming he is liberal. Just saying it doesn't make one liberal, their actions do. Hope you now understood my references to repulbicans and liberals, and you claiming to be a humanist. You can claim whatever you want to be, doesn't mean people take you on your claims.


It literally says "request and demand for whole Ladakh region to be designated as tribal area".

Since you're embracing this letter in its entirety, it's fair to assume you support that too. Or are you cherry-picking?

I still don't follow the rest. Trump is now a liberal?

I don't care if people take me up on my claims. Play the ball, not the man bro. Ad hominem attacks are for schoolchildren.


You can play with words for all you want. The letter explicitly thanks the PM for making Ladakh a UT. It is an additional request to grant tribal status too. No where does the letter say "we welcome Ladakh being UT only if we get tribal status". The government is free to decide on the merits of the case.

You can act dense on whether you got my message or not. You are not kidding anyone here by your childish acts. You can claim to be a superhero, god, humanist or an ass. People will judge by your actions.


The difference between "This is good. (full stop)" and "This is good. Now we demand (their word) that you do this other thing" is self-evident.

As for the rest, I guess you don't know what ad hominem refers to. For future reference:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Pretty basic concept. I'm getting the impression that that's not part of some curriculums of some school boards in India?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:38 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Hindustan Kashmiri politicians are locked up, no internet, curfew imposed, school shut down etc, this is democracy? The Kashmiri politicians that worked with Hindustan now get betrayed like this? Kashmir on both side deserve a vote where they would like to settle independent, India, or Pakistan.... Not forcefully annexed by Hindu vendetta, by PM who killed his own people, and was allowed to enter other countries. Kashmir back in the 1940's was over 75% Muslim, I think we know then where Kashmir clearly belong to, though unfortunately Hindustan never allowed such referendum to be taken place. Kashmir is a disputed region, and should be handled with dignity, though Hindustan fail to realize this.


To quote, well, you, let India do India. Go worry sort out LeT and the Pakistani military's party mix of Jihadis and other terrorists. Just taking care of those nihilists will improve the living situation for all Kashmiris. Indeed all humanity.


Sorry, have to ask, what part do you disagree with?

The "let country X do country X" approach but that you yourself advocated in that many words.

Or the bit about putting nihilist jihadis where they belong. In jails.

And what's your obsession with cow dung? You a farmer? A noble profession, but there's more to it than cow dung.

Anyway, India is busy doing India right now. If you're so worried about the well-being of everyone, you could always devote your energy to having a chat with your all-weather friend. The one that's separating families and putting people in concentration camps because of their ethnicity/religion. Neither of those things are happening in India.

Go on, show us that you really care about humanity. Show us you're not just another hypocrite willing to fight India to the last Kashmiri.
 
msaaim89
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:48 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
PM Khan is actually telegraphing what he's planning to do:

Imran Khan predicts rise in suicide bombing in Kashmir as Pakistan's army issues dire warning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... g-kashmir/


PM Khan doesn't need to do anything, the Kashmiris themselves are discontent with Indian occupation.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:57 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

It literally says "request and demand for whole Ladakh region to be designated as tribal area".

Since you're embracing this letter in its entirety, it's fair to assume you support that too. Or are you cherry-picking?

I still don't follow the rest. Trump is now a liberal?

I don't care if people take me up on my claims. Play the ball, not the man bro. Ad hominem attacks are for schoolchildren.


You can play with words for all you want. The letter explicitly thanks the PM for making Ladakh a UT. It is an additional request to grant tribal status too. No where does the letter say "we welcome Ladakh being UT only if we get tribal status". The government is free to decide on the merits of the case.

You can act dense on whether you got my message or not. You are not kidding anyone here by your childish acts. You can claim to be a superhero, god, humanist or an ass. People will judge by your actions.


The difference between "This is good. (full stop)" and "This is good. Now we demand (their word) that you do this other thing" is self-evident.

As for the rest, I guess you don't know what ad hominem refers to. For future reference:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Pretty basic concept. I'm getting the impression that that's not part of some curriculums of some school boards in India?


Don't try to change goalposts. You were in this cocoon that no muslim wanted this. When shown proof, you want to move goal posts to satisfy your ego!

Perhaps you forgot that both your statement (in bold) and the letter I quoted does have a full stop? Since when did Canadian schooling system turn so bad in basic grammar? Did you read the last line in the letter where they again thank the PM for granting UT status unconditionally? The letter was to show to you that there are many muslims who wanted Art 370 to be repealed. If you still don't believe that and want to stay in lala land, thats your problem.

Well, english is not my first language and I don't show any pretense to be expert in it. But I am sure Canadian schooling system would have taught its students to respond factually to arguments instead of diverting discussion with unproven statements coloured by their own bias with no basis in reality ?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:31 pm

blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:

You can play with words for all you want. The letter explicitly thanks the PM for making Ladakh a UT. It is an additional request to grant tribal status too. No where does the letter say "we welcome Ladakh being UT only if we get tribal status". The government is free to decide on the merits of the case.

You can act dense on whether you got my message or not. You are not kidding anyone here by your childish acts. You can claim to be a superhero, god, humanist or an ass. People will judge by your actions.


The difference between "This is good. (full stop)" and "This is good. Now we demand (their word) that you do this other thing" is self-evident.

As for the rest, I guess you don't know what ad hominem refers to. For future reference:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Pretty basic concept. I'm getting the impression that that's not part of some curriculums of some school boards in India?


Don't try to change goalposts. You were in this cocoon that no muslim wanted this. When shown proof, you want to move goal posts to satisfy your ego!

Perhaps you forgot that both your statement (in bold) and the letter I quoted does have a full stop? Since when did Canadian schooling system turn so bad in basic grammar? Did you read the last line in the letter where they again thank the PM for granting UT status unconditionally? The letter was to show to you that there are many muslims who wanted Art 370 to be repealed. If you still don't believe that and want to stay in lala land, thats your problem.

Well, english is not my first language and I don't show any pretense to be expert in it. But I am sure Canadian schooling system would have taught its students to respond factually to arguments instead of diverting discussion with unproven statements coloured by their own bias with no basis in reality ?


Move the goalposts? Hardly. I just found it amusing that you advocated the removal of special protections and then promptly went and endorsed a letter "demanding" that Ladakh be designated a tribal area (with all the protections therein).

Just to slay some strawman that I claimed that no Muslim would support. I'm not stupid enough to believe in that type of uniformity in any group. "Jews for Jesus", Max Naumann etc have taught me that you can get some wildly unpredictable responses, sometimes in the name of self-preservation. So no, I'm sure you'll find Muslims who support it. I just don't think it will be good for the situation in Kashmir in general, and for them in particular. I'm also reasonably sure that most Kashmiri Muslims have their reservations about the revocation. So does your government. Hence the lockdown.

As for the rest, I learnt English in India - CBSE, PCM etc etc. Even did some ICSE. All of which is to say, don't accuse people of playing with language just because you're not as familiar with it.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't know enough to really have an opinion. Obviously what China is doing in Tibet (and now in its Muslim parts) is wrong, but that's not just letting people relocate freely to these regions. It's above all oppressing the "native" population, banning their culture, etc. If that isn't done, I really don't see the problem with letting Indians move to another part of their country, just like I can, as a French citizen, move to Guadeloupe, Réunion, New Caledonia or Tahiti, without asking permission from anyone. We are all humans, and creating all these divisions doesn't help people embrace this reality. India has also the issue of the caste system...

The Constitution of India guarantees the right of every Indian citizen to reside, seek livelihood or own property anywhere in the country*. Until August 5 2019, this had a major corollary - these constitutional rights did not apply for people who are not resident of J&K (regardless of religion), in the context of the territory of J&K. However, the reverse was not true - a J&K citizen was also an Indian citizen and had unfettered right to all Indian constitutional guarantees throughout India.

What India has done, is simply eliminate the dual-nationality basis within J&K - only one constitution now applies to everyone. As anyone who's ever been to India would know, India has an ENORMOUS number of small ethnoreligious groups - several quoted a few posts earlier. Many of them much smaller in size than the Kashmiri Muslim demographic. none of whom have ever had the kind of 'protection' of Article 370, and have never been 'oppressed' as a result.

In other words, there existed a situation where ONE small demographic group of 8 million had a construct that let them enjoy all rights of Indians all over India, but let them keep out the rest of India out of their territory. This arrangement was NOT created by parliamentary law. It was added by a Presidential Order in 1954 - exactly the same way the whole thing was just dismantled. Why wasn't it removed for 7 decades ? Political will.

The entire construct of 'oppressing' Kashmiri Muslims, not Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists mind you - the argument only considers the Kashmiri Muslim and not anyone else - as oppressed, is basically a BS rhetorical construct spouted by the people on the west, ably supported by a section of intelligentsia who like to run around with their latest victimhood cause du jour.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:53 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

The difference between "This is good. (full stop)" and "This is good. Now we demand (their word) that you do this other thing" is self-evident.

As for the rest, I guess you don't know what ad hominem refers to. For future reference:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

Pretty basic concept. I'm getting the impression that that's not part of some curriculums of some school boards in India?


Don't try to change goalposts. You were in this cocoon that no muslim wanted this. When shown proof, you want to move goal posts to satisfy your ego!

Perhaps you forgot that both your statement (in bold) and the letter I quoted does have a full stop? Since when did Canadian schooling system turn so bad in basic grammar? Did you read the last line in the letter where they again thank the PM for granting UT status unconditionally? The letter was to show to you that there are many muslims who wanted Art 370 to be repealed. If you still don't believe that and want to stay in lala land, thats your problem.

Well, english is not my first language and I don't show any pretense to be expert in it. But I am sure Canadian schooling system would have taught its students to respond factually to arguments instead of diverting discussion with unproven statements coloured by their own bias with no basis in reality ?


Move the goalposts? Hardly. I just found it amusing that you advocated the removal of special protections and then promptly went and endorsed a letter "demanding" that Ladakh be designated a tribal area (with all the protections therein).

Just to slay some strawman that I claimed that no Muslim would support. I'm not stupid enough to believe in that type of uniformity in any group. "Jews for Jesus", Max Naumann etc have taught me that you can get some wildly unpredictable responses, sometimes in the name of self-preservation. So no, I'm sure you'll find Muslims who support it. I just don't think it will be good for the situation in Kashmir in general, and for them in particular. I'm also reasonably sure that most Kashmiri Muslims have their reservations about the revocation. So does your government. Hence the lockdown.

As for the rest, I learnt English in India - CBSE, PCM etc etc. Even did some ICSE. All of which is to say, don't accuse people of playing with language just because you're not as familiar with it.



You are playing with facts and language, there is no doubt about that. All I mentioned was that the letter shows even muslims welcomed granting of UT status to Ladakh by removing Art 370 so that ethnic cleaners should be happy. Reread the post before spouting nonsense. You were the one playing with language , trying to put words into the letter which weren't there because you didn't have the minimum grace to accept that your understanding was wrong and muslims too were welcoming abolishing art 370. All your word play tricks did zilch to show your humanist or rational face.

Whether you really studied CBSE/PCM/ICSE etc is immaterial. For all your language skills that you claim to process, you didn't make any factual rational counterpoint other than just claiming that Indian govt was out to get muslims, even in face of muslims welcoming it. All the use of language will be worth nothing if you can't have a decent coherent factual argument.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:19 pm

A summary of international responses so far :

* US - Modi apparently informed Trump of his plans on the sidelines of the G20 summit in Osaka a month ago. Some say India provided further information on plans a week ago, but there's no clarity. Apparently the POTUS doesn't brief his own executive on 1:1s. The standard response from the State Department after Aug 5 has been 'we hope all parties keep the calm'. Which is of course India's intent here.

* China - have stated they disapprove. Nice of them to say the same thing they always say.

* There are attempts to get the OIC to condemn India - for what would be probably the 3734762th time .

* The EU - no idea, but it would be quite funny if they're against the Constitution of India being applied all over India, considering they're all about being a uniform entity. Presumably they're not as intent on looking silly as the Chinese are.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:23 pm

blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:

Don't try to change goalposts. You were in this cocoon that no muslim wanted this. When shown proof, you want to move goal posts to satisfy your ego!

Perhaps you forgot that both your statement (in bold) and the letter I quoted does have a full stop? Since when did Canadian schooling system turn so bad in basic grammar? Did you read the last line in the letter where they again thank the PM for granting UT status unconditionally? The letter was to show to you that there are many muslims who wanted Art 370 to be repealed. If you still don't believe that and want to stay in lala land, thats your problem.

Well, english is not my first language and I don't show any pretense to be expert in it. But I am sure Canadian schooling system would have taught its students to respond factually to arguments instead of diverting discussion with unproven statements coloured by their own bias with no basis in reality ?


Move the goalposts? Hardly. I just found it amusing that you advocated the removal of special protections and then promptly went and endorsed a letter "demanding" that Ladakh be designated a tribal area (with all the protections therein).

Just to slay some strawman that I claimed that no Muslim would support. I'm not stupid enough to believe in that type of uniformity in any group. "Jews for Jesus", Max Naumann etc have taught me that you can get some wildly unpredictable responses, sometimes in the name of self-preservation. So no, I'm sure you'll find Muslims who support it. I just don't think it will be good for the situation in Kashmir in general, and for them in particular. I'm also reasonably sure that most Kashmiri Muslims have their reservations about the revocation. So does your government. Hence the lockdown.

As for the rest, I learnt English in India - CBSE, PCM etc etc. Even did some ICSE. All of which is to say, don't accuse people of playing with language just because you're not as familiar with it.



You are playing with facts and language, there is no doubt about that. All I mentioned was that the letter shows even muslims welcomed granting of UT status to Ladakh by removing Art 370 so that ethnic cleaners should be happy. Reread the post before spouting nonsense. You were the one playing with language , trying to put words into the letter which weren't there because you didn't have the minimum grace to accept that your understanding was wrong and muslims too were welcoming abolishing art 370. All your word play tricks did zilch to show your humanist or rational face.

Whether you really studied CBSE/PCM/ICSE etc is immaterial. For all your language skills that you claim to process, you didn't make any factual rational counterpoint other than just claiming that Indian govt was out to get muslims, even in face of muslims welcoming it. All the use of language will be worth nothing if you can't have a decent coherent factual argument.


I could keep repeating myself, but that isn't going to make your English comprehension any better. But I ll give it one last shot:

No I do not believe, nor have I ever said, that no Muslim supports 370. I even explained why - Jews for Jesus, Max Neumann etc have shown time and again that these types of situations elicit wildly unpredictable reactions. Some will oppose vehemently. Some will curry favour to get exemptions (like, say, designated tribal status).

What I do stand by is this: I think this is a bad idea and I think most Kashmiri Muslims agree. Why else are they now living in what they themselves refer to as an open jail (no schools, internet, army on the streets etc).

I appreciate the difficulties of mastering another language but don't put words in my mouth to create straw men. (Google the meaning of that, if it's not clear).
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:33 pm

The government: Let's try to treat people the same regardless of their religion

"Secularists": But that's religious discrimination!
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:35 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Move the goalposts? Hardly. I just found it amusing that you advocated the removal of special protections and then promptly went and endorsed a letter "demanding" that Ladakh be designated a tribal area (with all the protections therein).

Just to slay some strawman that I claimed that no Muslim would support. I'm not stupid enough to believe in that type of uniformity in any group. "Jews for Jesus", Max Naumann etc have taught me that you can get some wildly unpredictable responses, sometimes in the name of self-preservation. So no, I'm sure you'll find Muslims who support it. I just don't think it will be good for the situation in Kashmir in general, and for them in particular. I'm also reasonably sure that most Kashmiri Muslims have their reservations about the revocation. So does your government. Hence the lockdown.

As for the rest, I learnt English in India - CBSE, PCM etc etc. Even did some ICSE. All of which is to say, don't accuse people of playing with language just because you're not as familiar with it.



You are playing with facts and language, there is no doubt about that. All I mentioned was that the letter shows even muslims welcomed granting of UT status to Ladakh by removing Art 370 so that ethnic cleaners should be happy. Reread the post before spouting nonsense. You were the one playing with language , trying to put words into the letter which weren't there because you didn't have the minimum grace to accept that your understanding was wrong and muslims too were welcoming abolishing art 370. All your word play tricks did zilch to show your humanist or rational face.

Whether you really studied CBSE/PCM/ICSE etc is immaterial. For all your language skills that you claim to process, you didn't make any factual rational counterpoint other than just claiming that Indian govt was out to get muslims, even in face of muslims welcoming it. All the use of language will be worth nothing if you can't have a decent coherent factual argument.


I could keep repeating myself, but that isn't going to make your English comprehension any better. But I ll give it one last shot:

No I do not believe, nor have I ever said, that no Muslim supports 370. I even explained why - Jews for Jesus, Max Neumann etc have shown time and again that these types of situations elicit wildly unpredictable reactions. Some will oppose vehemently. Some will curry favour to get exemptions (like, say, designated tribal status).

What I do stand by is this: I think this is a bad idea and I think most Kashmiri Muslims agree. Why else are they now living in what they themselves refer to as an open jail (no schools, internet, army on the streets etc).

I appreciate the difficulties of mastering another language but don't put words in my mouth to create straw men. (Google the meaning of that, if it's not clear).


There is a marked difference in your tone in this post compared to the earlier ones(not including the sarcasm). especially in the first page where you had spouted nonsense. I said English isn't my first language, but doesn't mean I don't comprehend either your posts, your sarcasm, your lack of understanding of way things are India, Indian constitution or laws, or lack of bias and honesty or the equality & fairness you claim to posess in your posts. Anyway, I have made my points and you yours.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:46 pm

Looks like some people don't quite get that there's no 'Article 371' involving anything in the Northeast. Here's some non-rhetorical reality:

* Article 369, 370 and 371 are the first three articles of Part XXI of the Indian Constitution: PART XXI [TEMPORARY, TRANSITIONAL AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS]
* Article 369 gives Parliament termporary power to treat the State List items as Concurrent List ones.
* Article 371 deals with Gujarat and Maharashtra. and has nothing to do with the Northeast at all.
* There are Article 371A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H I and J. They all deal with different states, and do completely different things.

Let's take Article 371A, which despite the unfamiliarity of those using it as their sock puppet, is the main rhetorical issue:
2
[371A. Special provision with respect to the State of Nagaland.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in
this Constitution,—
(a) no Act of Parliament in respect of—
(i) religious or social practices of the Nagas,
(ii) Naga customary law and procedure,
(iii) administration of civil and criminal justice involving decisions according to Naga
customary law,
(iv) ownership and transfer of land and its resources,
shall apply to the State of Nagaland unless the Legislative Assembly of Nagaland by a resolution so
decides;
(b) the Governor of Nagaland shall have special responsibility with respect to law and order in the
State of Nagaland for so long as in his opinion internal disturbances occurring in the Naga HillsTuensang
Area immediately before the formation of that State continue therein or in any part thereof
and in the discharge of his functions in relation thereto the Governor shall, after consulting the Council
of Ministers, exercise his individual judgment as to the action to be taken:
Provided that if any question arises whether any matter is or is not a matter as respects which the
Governor is under this sub-clause required to act in the exercise of his individual judgment, the decision
of the Governor in his discretion shall be final, and the validity of anything done by the Governor shall
not be called in question on the ground that he ought or ought not to have acted in the exercise of his
individual judgment:
Provided further that if the President on receipt of a report from the Governor or otherwise is
satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the Governor to have special responsibility with respect to
law and order in the State of Nagaland, he may by order direct that the Governor shall cease to have
such responsibility with effect from such date as may be specified in the order;
(c) in making his recommendation with respect to any demand for a grant, the Governor of
Nagaland shall ensure that any money provided by the Government of India out of the Consolidated
Fund of India for any specific service or purpose is included in the demand for a grant relating to that
service or purpose and not in any other demand;

In other words:
* It's not that Indians cannot own property in Nagaland - which they can - but that the Naga government can define its own laws on the topic.
* The Naga legislature can change all provisions in 371A(a).
* The Naga government is part of the NDA headed by the BJP. It has 34 seats in a 60 seat legislature and a 54% voteshare.
* The governor - the agent of New Delhi - has the last say on Law and Order.

In reality, Nagaland is nothing like J&K. Any Indian can - despite 371A - reside/work/own property in Nagaland, and changing even their own local law regarding ownership doesn't even require New Delhi to bother - it's entirely a local legislative prerogative - the NDA already controls the Naga government, and has done so continuously for two election cycles now.

371G (Mizoram) is basically a cut and paste of 371A.

371C (Manipur) has nothing about property law.

There's no provision for Tripura at all

Article 371B is simply the legal framework to create Meghalaya out of Assam.

The Sentinel Islands have nothing to do with 371 at all - the article deals with temporary, transitional and special arrangments for specific states. A&N is a Union Territory. Same as J&K.

At any time Indian interests - e.g. unrest in Bangladesh or Myanmar - dictate, guess what the NDA-controlled Naga legislature is going to do ?
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:09 pm

Arguably, Art 371 was crafted as a means to not repeat the mistake of Art 370 while still enabling India to absorb new territory or restructure states.

All of the Northeast states were created in the 1960s through 1980s. Some were straightforward. Some involved first crushing decades long insurgency (Assam, Nagaland) and one - Mizoram - even involved the IAF bombing Aizawl . The position of the Indian Government here has been predictable and consistent:
* NO acceptance of insurgency, referenda on Independence, or any other extra-constitutional demands. The entire might of the Indian state will be applied to ensure this. Same as J&K.
* The offered provision is for self determination is a full and complete path to legislative control by democratic vote. Doesn't matter if you're a former insurgent - give up arms, form a party, win the vote.
* Article 371A/G provides a repeatable template to apply to any newly absorbed territory: first, the militancy is crushed. Second, a transitional period of UT status applies. Statehood then follows, when they are offered political room to accomplish a democratic exercise in government creation.

This template works. It's worked all over the Northeast. It takes advantage of the simple human condition - people love power much more than anything else - even former wide eyed militants who's now part of the Indian state government.

People wonder how India - despite its innumerable religions/ethnicities/tribes/castes/identities, has managed not to implode like Yugoslavia. Heck we're doing far better than the EU at staying cohesive. The answer is in providing a structure of power sharing that appeals to base human motives.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:32 pm

BarfBag wrote:
Looks like some people don't quite get that there's no 'Article 371' involving anything in the Northeast. Here's some non-rhetorical reality:

* Article 369, 370 and 371 are the first three articles of Part XXI of the Indian Constitution: PART XXI [TEMPORARY, TRANSITIONAL AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS]
* Article 369 gives Parliament termporary power to treat the State List items as Concurrent List ones.
* Article 371 deals with Gujarat and Maharashtra. and has nothing to do with the Northeast at all.
* There are Article 371A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H I and J. They all deal with different states, and do completely different things.

Let's take Article 371A, which despite the unfamiliarity of those using it as their sock puppet, is the main rhetorical issue:
2
[371A. Special provision with respect to the State of Nagaland.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in
this Constitution,—
(a) no Act of Parliament in respect of—
(i) religious or social practices of the Nagas,
(ii) Naga customary law and procedure,
(iii) administration of civil and criminal justice involving decisions according to Naga
customary law,
(iv) ownership and transfer of land and its resources,
shall apply to the State of Nagaland unless the Legislative Assembly of Nagaland by a resolution so
decides;
(b) the Governor of Nagaland shall have special responsibility with respect to law and order in the
State of Nagaland for so long as in his opinion internal disturbances occurring in the Naga HillsTuensang
Area immediately before the formation of that State continue therein or in any part thereof
and in the discharge of his functions in relation thereto the Governor shall, after consulting the Council
of Ministers, exercise his individual judgment as to the action to be taken:
Provided that if any question arises whether any matter is or is not a matter as respects which the
Governor is under this sub-clause required to act in the exercise of his individual judgment, the decision
of the Governor in his discretion shall be final, and the validity of anything done by the Governor shall
not be called in question on the ground that he ought or ought not to have acted in the exercise of his
individual judgment:
Provided further that if the President on receipt of a report from the Governor or otherwise is
satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the Governor to have special responsibility with respect to
law and order in the State of Nagaland, he may by order direct that the Governor shall cease to have
such responsibility with effect from such date as may be specified in the order;
(c) in making his recommendation with respect to any demand for a grant, the Governor of
Nagaland shall ensure that any money provided by the Government of India out of the Consolidated
Fund of India for any specific service or purpose is included in the demand for a grant relating to that
service or purpose and not in any other demand;

In other words:
* It's not that Indians cannot own property in Nagaland - which they can - but that the Naga government can define its own laws on the topic.
* The Naga legislature can change all provisions in 371A(a).
* The Naga government is part of the NDA headed by the BJP. It has 34 seats in a 60 seat legislature and a 54% voteshare.
* The governor - the agent of New Delhi - has the last say on Law and Order.

In reality, Nagaland is nothing like J&K. Any Indian can - despite 371A - reside/work/own property in Nagaland, and changing even their own local law regarding ownership doesn't even require New Delhi to bother - it's entirely a local legislative prerogative - the NDA already controls the Naga government, and has done so continuously for two election cycles now.

371G (Mizoram) is basically a cut and paste of 371A.

371C (Manipur) has nothing about property law.

There's no provision for Tripura at all

Article 371B is simply the legal framework to create Meghalaya out of Assam.

The Sentinel Islands have nothing to do with 371 at all - the article deals with temporary, transitional and special arrangments for specific states. A&N is a Union Territory. Same as J&K.

At any time Indian interests - e.g. unrest in Bangladesh or Myanmar - dictate, guess what the NDA-controlled Naga legislature is going to do ?


Ha - A for effort. That was hilarious.

Both Nagaland and Mizoram prohibit people not from those respective states to buy land. I don't know how that translates into a "reality" wherein any Indian can buy land there. I guess every Indian is now simultaneously indigenous to Mizoram and Nagaland, even though that is, by definition, impossible?

Also what's this Naga/Mizo(?) customary law bit about. Different laws for Nagas than for the rest of India?! Country within a country?!? Whatever happened to equality under the constitution of India.

Lol - careful, your contradictions might make you trip into hypocrisy.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:36 pm

BarfBag wrote:
Arguably, Art 371 was crafted as a means to not repeat the mistake of Art 370 while still enabling India to absorb new territory or restructure states.

All of the Northeast states were created in the 1960s through 1980s. Some were straightforward. Some involved first crushing decades long insurgency (Assam, Nagaland) and one - Mizoram - even involved the IAF bombing Aizawl . The position of the Indian Government here has been predictable and consistent:
* NO acceptance of insurgency, referenda on Independence, or any other extra-constitutional demands. The entire might of the Indian state will be applied to ensure this. Same as J&K.
* The offered provision is for self determination is a full and complete path to legislative control by democratic vote. Doesn't matter if you're a former insurgent - give up arms, form a party, win the vote.
* Article 371A/G provides a repeatable template to apply to any newly absorbed territory: first, the militancy is crushed. Second, a transitional period of UT status applies. Statehood then follows, when they are offered political room to accomplish a democratic exercise in government creation.

This template works. It's worked all over the Northeast. It takes advantage of the simple human condition - people love power much more than anything else - even former wide eyed militants who's now part of the Indian state government.

People wonder how India - despite its innumerable religions/ethnicities/tribes/castes/identities, has managed not to implode like Yugoslavia. Heck we're doing far better than the EU at staying cohesive. The answer is in providing a structure of power sharing that appeals to base human motives.


So ... it's okay to put J&K under 371 instead? Cool. I think most Kashmiris will be happy with that.

Granted letting the state legislature decide who can or cannot buy property may not go down with our resident 2nd home buyer.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Both Nagaland and Mizoram prohibit people not from those respective states to buy land..

Wrong. Nagaland and Mizoram have legislative power to determine the extent of ownership laws, but superceded by a super-Governor who can and does override the legislature when national imperative dictates.

The legislature of BOTH Nagaland and Mizoram are part of the NDA. Both can be legislatively diluted to eliminate all their 371 special provisions, without another person from outside stepping foot in there to change demographics.

Jammu and Kashmir derived power from the Indian constitution to deny Indian citizens the right to property, livelihood and residence in J&K - in direct violation of fundamental rights granted to all Indian citizens elsewhere.

Very different material circumstances. In fact, 371A/G prove that DESPITE lack of any bar on demographic resettlement in Nagaland or Mizoram, neither of them have been 'overrun by vast hordes of Hindus'. Kashmir though, will be, but that's because Kashmir is a far more significant part of Hindu cultural heritage.

371, as argued earlier, is a refined modification of 370 that achieves the objectives of the Indian state while simultaneously enabling newly absorbed territory the space to develop itself as a part of India. It's been sufficiently successful that's it's been cut and paste in various forms nearly a dozen times, whereas its predecessor Art 370 is... dead.
ElPistolero wrote:
So ... it's okay to put J&K under 371 instead? Cool. I think most Kashmiris will be happy with that.

That is the prerogative of the Government of the Republic of India to determine, based on the extent to which militancy in Kashmir terminates, and how well they perform as a normal part of India. Not every newly absorbed state had a 371-addendum.

J&K is simply going to go through the process of demilitization and UT-ization . The first order of business - now that the Indian armed forces are not dependent on the nod of any interfering state government with delusions of 370-derived autonomy - is to independently build up military strength in the western and eastern flanks via J&K and Ladakh UTs. The JUSBRL will get a significant boost as a result of the events of Monday.
Last edited by BarfBag on Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:08 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Both Nagaland and Mizoram prohibit people not from those respective states to buy land..

Wrong. Nagaland and Mizoram have legislative power to determine the extent of ownership laws, but superceded by a super-Governor who can and does override the legislature when national imperative dictates.

The legislature of BOTH Nagaland and Mizoram are part of the NDA. Both can be legislatively diluted to eliminate all their 371 special provisions, without another person from outside stepping foot in there to change demographics.

Jammu and Kashmir derived power from the Indian constitution to deny Indian citizens the right to property, livelihood and residence in J&K - in direct violation of fundamental rights granted to all Indian citizens elsewhere.

Very different material circumstances. In fact, 371A/G prove that DESPITE lack of any bar on demographic resettlement in Nagaland or Mizoram, neither of them have been 'overrun by vast hordes of Hindus'. Kashmir though, will be, but that's because Kashmir is a far more significant part of Hindu cultural heritage.

371, as argued earlier, is a refined modification of 370 that achieves the objectives of the Indian state while simultaneously enabling newly absorbed territory the space to develop itself as a part of India. It's been sufficiently successful that's it's been cut and paste in various forms nearly a dozen times, whereas its predecessor Art 370 is... dead.
ElPistolero wrote:
So ... it's okay to put J&K under 371 instead? Cool. I think most Kashmiris will be happy with that.

That is the prerogative of the Government of the Republic of India to determine, based on the extent to which militancy in Kashmir terminates, and how well they perform as a normal part of India. Not every newly absorbed state had a 371-addendum.

J&K is simply going to go through the process of demilitization and UT-ization . The first order of business - now that the Indian armed forces are not dependent on the nod of any interfering state government with delusions of 370-derived autonomy - is to independently build up military strength in the western and eastern flanks via J&K and Ladakh UTs. The JUSBRL will get a significant boost as a result of the events of Monday.


Indeed they do. As does Goa (?!). However, they actually implement it. Which is to say, you're wrong. All Indian citizens cannot buy property there.

I see now that Nagaland has its own Independence Day (14 August) and flag, and are getting their own passport (umm WTF?!).

You must really dislike one group to be able to overlook this kind of stuff for others.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:15 pm

Re: "Indians can't own property in Nagaland"

https://www.realestateindia.com/nagalan ... l-rent.htm
Nagaland is a lively state, surrounded by Assam to the west, Arunachal Pradesh to the north, Myanmar to the east and Manipur to the south. Nagaland is considered the land of folklore because of its vast tribal culture and magnificent natural surroundings. The support of central government for the development of infrastructure in the state has shown a steep rise in the real estate of Nagaland. Numerous construction activities for commercial property and residential property are in line for attracting large number of property investors. The Asian Development Bank has also come up with handsome investment for the development of five Northeastern states, which will directly impact the Nagaland real estate.

The large dependence of Nagaland on roads for transportation has lead to the emergence of a national highway running from Dimapur to Kohima and then on to Imphal in Manipur. Another main road links are Mokokchung with Amguri in Assam. It directly stimulates the growth of Nagaland property sector. Urban development of Nagaland foresees improvement of basic urban infrastructure, hence, attracting realtors to make huge investments in Nagaland properties. The rapid paced construction of residential real estate and commercial real estate has provided an edge to the properties in Nagaland. Buying property in Nagaland has become easier with the help of property dealers and brokers as they help you in striking best deals.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Therein lies the fundamental basis by which India includes every entity:

Everyone loves power. Everyone loves money. The very last guy to keep screaming about the poor Kashmiri Muslim will be offered money to shut the cluck up, probably by a Kashmiri Muslim.

All the Indian state has to do is offer them both, on India's terms. Everyone takes it. The one time Assamese insurgent, the one time Naga insurgent, everyone.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:47 pm

BarfBag wrote:
Re: "Indians can't own property in Nagaland"

https://www.realestateindia.com/nagalan ... l-rent.htm
Nagaland is a lively state, surrounded by Assam to the west, Arunachal Pradesh to the north, Myanmar to the east and Manipur to the south. Nagaland is considered the land of folklore because of its vast tribal culture and magnificent natural surroundings. The support of central government for the development of infrastructure in the state has shown a steep rise in the real estate of Nagaland. Numerous construction activities for commercial property and residential property are in line for attracting large number of property investors. The Asian Development Bank has also come up with handsome investment for the development of five Northeastern states, which will directly impact the Nagaland real estate.

The large dependence of Nagaland on roads for transportation has lead to the emergence of a national highway running from Dimapur to Kohima and then on to Imphal in Manipur. Another main road links are Mokokchung with Amguri in Assam. It directly stimulates the growth of Nagaland property sector. Urban development of Nagaland foresees improvement of basic urban infrastructure, hence, attracting realtors to make huge investments in Nagaland properties. The rapid paced construction of residential real estate and commercial real estate has provided an edge to the properties in Nagaland. Buying property in Nagaland has become easier with the help of property dealers and brokers as they help you in striking best deals.


Nope. Go look up the Nagaland Land and Revenue Regulation (Amendment) Act of 1978.

Not that your article says anything to substantiate your position.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:48 pm

BarfBag wrote:
Therein lies the fundamental basis by which India includes every entity:

Everyone loves power. Everyone loves money. The very last guy to keep screaming about the poor Kashmiri Muslim will be offered money to shut the cluck up, probably by a Kashmiri Muslim.

All the Indian state has to do is offer them both, on India's terms. Everyone takes it. The one time Assamese insurgent, the one time Naga insurgent, everyone.


And flags and passports apparently.

But that's ok, because Nagas aren't Kashmiri Muslims I guess.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:35 pm

N867DA wrote:
The government: Let's try to treat people the same regardless of their religion

"Secularists": But that's religious discrimination!


Very droll.

Indian "nationalists" when Indian origin/citizen gets lynched abroad: "Racist!"

Indian "nationalists" when Indian citizen gets lynched in India: "he mistreated a cow!"

Indian "egalitarians": protections for non-Hindu majority states are only okay if they're not Muslim-majority.

Two can play that game ;)

I will say this though. This issue has shed light on issues I never paid attention to. Like this gem from earlier this year:

"The Nagaland Cabinet has rejected the (Indian) citizenship bill, following pressure from various tribal organisations and students bodies."

"The National Democratic People’s Party-led People’s Democratic Alliance (PDA) government in the state had said that Nagaland enjoys protection under provisions of Article 371 (A) of the Constitution and the Inner Line Permit (ILP), according to which, any person who acquires Indian citizenship will be ineligible for acquiring property or settling down in the state."

https://m.hindustantimes.com/world-news ... pBkYM.html

Guess that explains the separate passport and flag thing. Talk about a country within a country.

And this inner line permit thing - a visa for Indian citizens to travel inside India!?! Unless I'm misreading this, the maximum time an Indian citizen can spend in Mizoram is 18 months at a stretch (six month initial permit, with 2 six month renewal limit.) Even Leh is included.

Looks like the EU provides more freedom of movement to the citizens of its member states, than India does to its own citizens. I'm genuinely curious to see how the our resident "nationalist"/"egalitarian" squares that with the rest of his claims about one country, one law etc etc. Should be fun.

Not that I want 371 gone; even I'm impressed by the Government's willingness to accommodate minorities that aren't Muslim.

It does, however, shine a light on the attitude of certain posters here towards Muslims. That historical chip on the shoulder is really skewing their objectivity and ...err... sense of "egalitarianism".
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:05 am

ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
The government: Let's try to treat people the same regardless of their religion

"Secularists": But that's religious discrimination!


Very droll.

Indian "nationalists" when Indian origin/citizen gets lynched abroad: "Racist!"

Indian "nationalists" when Indian citizen gets lynched in India: "he mistreated a cow!"

Indian "egalitarians": protections for non-Hindu majority states are only okay if they're not Muslim-majority.

Two can play that game ;)

I will say this though. This issue has shed light on issues I never paid attention to. Like this gem from earlier this year:

"The Nagaland Cabinet has rejected the (Indian) citizenship bill, following pressure from various tribal organisations and students bodies."

"The National Democratic People’s Party-led People’s Democratic Alliance (PDA) government in the state had said that Nagaland enjoys protection under provisions of Article 371 (A) of the Constitution and the Inner Line Permit (ILP), according to which, any person who acquires Indian citizenship will be ineligible for acquiring property or settling down in the state."

https://m.hindustantimes.com/world-news ... pBkYM.html

Guess that explains the separate passport and flag thing. Talk about a country within a country.

And this inner line permit thing - a visa for Indian citizens to travel inside India!?! Unless I'm misreading this, the maximum time an Indian citizen can spend in Mizoram is 18 months at a stretch (six month initial permit, with 2 six month renewal limit.) Even Leh is included.

Looks like the EU provides more freedom of movement to the citizens of its member states, than India does to its own citizens. I'm genuinely curious to see how the our resident "nationalist"/"egalitarian" squares that with the rest of his claims about one country, one law etc etc. Should be fun.

Not that I want 371 gone; even I'm impressed by the Government's willingness to accommodate minorities that aren't Muslim.

It does, however, shine a light on the attitude of certain posters here towards Muslims. That historical chip on the shoulder is really skewing their objectivity and ...err... sense of "egalitarianism".


Please scroll through this entire thread and find a post where I have (or anyone, for that matter) tolerated any violence against any person for any reason. Obviously, lynching anyone for any reason is wrong.

Not sure how anything in this thread can be telescoped to form an opinion on how anyone feels about Muslims in general. Ask me how I feel about Palestine or Ahmadis lol!

Seems there is disagreement on how the Indian state should handle Kashmir, and that's about all we know.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:33 am

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
The government: Let's try to treat people the same regardless of their religion

"Secularists": But that's religious discrimination!


Very droll.

Indian "nationalists" when Indian origin/citizen gets lynched abroad: "Racist!"

Indian "nationalists" when Indian citizen gets lynched in India: "he mistreated a cow!"

Indian "egalitarians": protections for non-Hindu majority states are only okay if they're not Muslim-majority.

Two can play that game ;)

I will say this though. This issue has shed light on issues I never paid attention to. Like this gem from earlier this year:

"The Nagaland Cabinet has rejected the (Indian) citizenship bill, following pressure from various tribal organisations and students bodies."

"The National Democratic People’s Party-led People’s Democratic Alliance (PDA) government in the state had said that Nagaland enjoys protection under provisions of Article 371 (A) of the Constitution and the Inner Line Permit (ILP), according to which, any person who acquires Indian citizenship will be ineligible for acquiring property or settling down in the state."

https://m.hindustantimes.com/world-news ... pBkYM.html

Guess that explains the separate passport and flag thing. Talk about a country within a country.

And this inner line permit thing - a visa for Indian citizens to travel inside India!?! Unless I'm misreading this, the maximum time an Indian citizen can spend in Mizoram is 18 months at a stretch (six month initial permit, with 2 six month renewal limit.) Even Leh is included.

Looks like the EU provides more freedom of movement to the citizens of its member states, than India does to its own citizens. I'm genuinely curious to see how the our resident "nationalist"/"egalitarian" squares that with the rest of his claims about one country, one law etc etc. Should be fun.

Not that I want 371 gone; even I'm impressed by the Government's willingness to accommodate minorities that aren't Muslim.

It does, however, shine a light on the attitude of certain posters here towards Muslims. That historical chip on the shoulder is really skewing their objectivity and ...err... sense of "egalitarianism".


Please scroll through this entire thread and find a post where I have (or anyone, for that matter) tolerated any violence against any person for any reason. Obviously, lynching anyone for any reason is wrong.

Not sure how anything in this thread can be telescoped to form an opinion on how anyone feels about Muslims in general. Ask me how I feel about Palestine or Ahmadis lol!

Seems there is disagreement on how the Indian state should handle Kashmir, and that's about all we know.


I was referring to the BJP/RSS/Gau Rakshaks types. They self-identify as "nationalists", no?

That aside, we have a lot of clear evidence about posters deliberately or inadvertently applying double standards when it comes to Kashmiri Muslims versus other minorities. It's up there in ... blue and white.
 
golfradio
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:47 pm

I guess J Namgyal's speech is already famous in India but I heard it just now. It is heartening to see the voice of Ladakh be heard and their wish for the last 71 years finally come true

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYgF53noEe4

It is indeed a great achievement of the Modi government. I am hoping the Kashmiri Pandits can finally return home. Living like refugees for 30 years in one's own country is indeed a travesty.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:18 pm

The other side of the coin.

"The status quo was a double whammy: It did nothing to address the well-being of Kashmiris who have now endured two generations of what was effectively military occupation. And it increased the gulf between Kashmir and the rest of the nation. So some movement was inevitable. But the kernel of truth is being deployed with an armoury of evil. ...The fact that these measures had to be done under stealth, with a tight security noose and informational blackout is a measure of the evil of the step taken. This is not the dawn of a new constitutional settlement, designed to elicit free allegiance. It is repression, plain and simple, reminiscent of the Reichstag or Chinese constitutional ideology that sees federalism as an obstacle to a strong state and homogenous culture.

Think of the proposal’s broader ramifications. India has betrayed its own constitutional promises. This act potentially sets the precedent for invalidating all of them.
...
How can we justify offering Nagaland asymmetric federalism but deny it to Kashmir? Its implication is that the government can unilaterally declare any existing state to be a Union Territory. This is a constitutional first. We are simply a union of Union Territories that happen to be a state at the discretion of the Centre.
...
the proposal to alter Jammu and Kashmir’s status to Union Territory ... is designed to humiliate an already subjugated population. How dare a Muslim dominated state exist in India? Kashmir can now not even be trusted to be a state. The optics of this measure is not integration, it is humiliation, of a piece with subtle and unsubtle reminders to minorities of their place in India."

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... p-5880797/

Always amusing to see Indians abroad cheer on these types of anti-minority measures at home. They'd be calling everyone and their dogs racist if they were subjected to similar majoritarian-led humiliation.

There are ways of making things better for everyone without repressing or humiliating anyone. Unless the entire point is to humiliate them - to "know their place as minorities". Try using that line on an Indian abroad, lol.
 
golfradio
Posts: 892
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:16 am

For folks who are unaware of the plight of Kashmiri pandits https://youtu.be/vMrggO9kSfo

It's a long talk but worth the watch. Imagine the attention this would have got if the situation had been reversed. A muslim minority driven out of their own homes by a hindu majority.

For the any one who is unaware Kashmir was the seat of Sanskrit grammar before the repeated muslim invasions destroyed it. It is kind of ironic for the muslims to claim that the abrogation is going to change the demographics of the valley. They pretty much obliterated the thousands of years old culture of Kashmir.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:00 pm

golfradio wrote:
For folks who are unaware of the plight of Kashmiri pandits https://youtu.be/vMrggO9kSfo

It's a long talk but worth the watch. Imagine the attention this would have got if the situation had been reversed. A muslim minority driven out of their own homes by a hindu majority.

For the any one who is unaware Kashmir was the seat of Sanskrit grammar before the repeated muslim invasions destroyed it. It is kind of ironic for the muslims to claim that the abrogation is going to change the demographics of the valley. They pretty much obliterated the thousands of years old culture of Kashmir.


Without minimizing their plight, it is unclear how this move benefits Kashmiri pandits. With a likely upsurge in Kashmiri nationalism on both sides of the border, any pandits who return in the next few months or years will probably be seen as a proxy for anti-Muslim Hindutva activists. Communal tensions are more likely to trend up, not down. The army's been there for decades and both the central and state governments have offered rehabilitation / resettlement in Kashmir (including the valley) for at least a decade now. The security situation hasn't improved enough to make moving back an attractive proposition. This communications blackout - something really inconsistent with "democracy" - highlights the obvious problem with the situation on the ground - for Kashmiri pandits and Kashmiri non-pundits, alike. Still a long way to go before they'll be able to reap any benefits. And I believe we could have gotten there without this poorly thought through power play.

That said, rehashing centuries-old historical grievances never ends well for anyone. The same standard you use would require us to note that the Sanskrit-speaking Aryans - including Kashmiri pandits - obliterated the (even more indigenous to India) Indus Valley civilization during the Aryan migration (or was it an invasion). Historical baggage is a reality. Invoking the Islamic invasions a millennia ago is pointless. It achieves as much - or as little - as saying something as daft as "it's ironic that the Brahmin Kashmiri pandits are complaining about suffering, given the untold suffering Brahmins have inflicted on lower castes and untouchables over millennia".

All of which is to say, what's happening today needs to be detached from what happened centuries ago.
 
N867DA
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:38 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Always amusing to see Indians abroad cheer on these types of anti-minority measures at home. They'd be calling everyone and their dogs racist if they were subjected to similar majoritarian-led humiliation.



I understand your broader position in this thread, but this line strikes me as odd. Can you point out any places 'abroad' that have similar rules as Kashmir? The closest I could think of in the United States are the Native American reservations out West.

As voiced several times in this thread, I have some pretty hefty reservations on the media blackout and radio silence in Kashmir, though I understand some communication is being restored in advance of Eid.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:28 pm

N867DA wrote:
As voiced several times in this thread, I have some pretty hefty reservations on the media blackout and radio silence in Kashmir, though I understand some communication is being restored in advance of Eid.


No life has been lost yet and no serious injury reported anywhere from Kashmir since the abrogation of 370.

The local authorities are pretty experienced and sensitive to the ground reality and take appropriate decisions based on that.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:30 pm

N867DA wrote:
I understand your broader position in this thread, but this line strikes me as odd. Can you point out any places 'abroad' that have similar rules as Kashmir? The closest I could think of in the United States are the Native American reservations out West.

As voiced several times in this thread, I have some pretty hefty reservations on the media blackout and radio silence in Kashmir, though I understand some communication is being restored in advance of Eid.


The First Nations reserves are the best example. One need only look at the travails of the trans-Canada pipeline to see how entrenched these rights are.

You see similar things with Quebec; while there's no prohibition on movement/ property buying per se, the language laws are very restrictive and act as a de facto barrier. It also runs its own immigration program, has its own laws (civil matters are Judged according to French-heritage civil law), has its own flag, and has its own "mini-embassies" abroad. Canadians from outside Quebec have to pay higher university tuition than foreign students from francophone nations. The country also has to officially function in two language, despite the fact that only around 20% of the country is francophone.

The kind of stuff that would make them easy targets for the type of angry majoritarians we see in India.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:42 pm

anshabhi wrote:

No life has been lost yet and no serious injury reported anywhere from Kashmir since the abrogation of 370.

The local authorities are pretty experienced and sensitive to the ground reality and take appropriate decisions based on that.


"Reported" is the key word. There's a communications blackout and curfew in place. The few independent reports coming out indicate, among other things, lack of access to medical care/supplies. People will eventually begin dying if they haven't already. I'm sure we'll end up seeing these deaths attributed to, say, diabetes, rather than the lack of insulin availability or medical care due to this imposed lock down.

I'm not sure how much anyone can trust the "local" authorities, given that they had to resort to stealth and subterfuge to achieve what they did. The credibility of anyone who insists on a communications blackout is, by definition, suspect.

But yeah, "everything's fine". Because shutting everything down for a week doesn't have an impact on people's health or well-being.
 
N867DA
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
I understand your broader position in this thread, but this line strikes me as odd. Can you point out any places 'abroad' that have similar rules as Kashmir? The closest I could think of in the United States are the Native American reservations out West.

As voiced several times in this thread, I have some pretty hefty reservations on the media blackout and radio silence in Kashmir, though I understand some communication is being restored in advance of Eid.


The First Nations reserves are the best example. One need only look at the travails of the trans-Canada pipeline to see how entrenched these rights are.

You see similar things with Quebec; while there's no prohibition on movement/ property buying per se, the language laws are very restrictive and act as a de facto barrier. It also runs its own immigration program, has its own laws (civil matters are Judged according to French-heritage civil law), has its own flag, and has its own "mini-embassies" abroad. Canadians from outside Quebec have to pay higher university tuition than foreign students from francophone nations. The country also has to officially function in two language, despite the fact that only around 20% of the country is francophone.

The kind of stuff that would make them easy targets for the type of angry majoritarians we see in India.


Honestly, if Kashmir had the same basic policy as Quebec that'd be fine by me. Quebec's immigration laws only apply to immigration from outside Canada, correct? They can't prevent someone from Vancouver or Edmonton from moving there and buying a house? There's really nothing wrong with having a Kashmiri mini-embassy in other countries to serve as an ambassador for the state--in fact, it's a good idea.

Language and religion are not the same (bilingualism is a thing, but not bi-theism) so the analogy falls apart quickly. The geopolitical realities facing Quebec and Kashmir are also pretty different. But it's not a bad start.

Edit to add: Things are obviously not fine in Kashmir. They weren't fine last week, last month, last year, or frankly any time in the lifetimes of many posters here. The tension just waxes and wanes. The hope is that these next few weeks are the nadir.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:35 pm

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
I understand your broader position in this thread, but this line strikes me as odd. Can you point out any places 'abroad' that have similar rules as Kashmir? The closest I could think of in the United States are the Native American reservations out West.

As voiced several times in this thread, I have some pretty hefty reservations on the media blackout and radio silence in Kashmir, though I understand some communication is being restored in advance of Eid.


The First Nations reserves are the best example. One need only look at the travails of the trans-Canada pipeline to see how entrenched these rights are.

You see similar things with Quebec; while there's no prohibition on movement/ property buying per se, the language laws are very restrictive and act as a de facto barrier. It also runs its own immigration program, has its own laws (civil matters are Judged according to French-heritage civil law), has its own flag, and has its own "mini-embassies" abroad. Canadians from outside Quebec have to pay higher university tuition than foreign students from francophone nations. The country also has to officially function in two language, despite the fact that only around 20% of the country is francophone.

The kind of stuff that would make them easy targets for the type of angry majoritarians we see in India.


Honestly, if Kashmir had the same basic policy as Quebec that'd be fine by me. Quebec's immigration laws only apply to immigration from outside Canada, correct? They can't prevent someone from Vancouver or Edmonton from moving there and buying a house? There's really nothing wrong with having a Kashmiri mini-embassy in other countries to serve as an ambassador for the state--in fact, it's a good idea.

Language and religion are not the same (bilingualism is a thing, but not bi-theism) so the analogy falls apart quickly. The geopolitical realities facing Quebec and Kashmir are also pretty different. But it's not a bad start.

Edit to add: Things are obviously not fine in Kashmir. They weren't fine last week, last month, last year, or frankly any time in the lifetimes of many posters here. The tension just waxes and wanes. The hope is that these next few weeks are the nadir.


I'm not sure I agree. Québécois culture is more akin to a religious culture than just a linguistic culture (a la, say, Punjabi). Just witness their RSS-style secularism - they're trying to ban religious symbols (turbans etc) in government workplaces, but insist on keeping the Christian cross in the provincial legislature. But anyway, probably splitting hairs at this point.

Which is to say, yes, you can move, but the barriers to movement are formidable. And deliberately so - they're designed to preserve the unique cultural identity of Quebec. The language laws are pretty heavy; witness Montreal's relative decline as an economic hub since their implementation. That's in large part because language barriers stop a lot of companies and talent from going there.

That aside, they're both examples of rights given to minority-majority (?) states/provinces with strong national identities. The civil law/common law combination is unique to Quebec. And the mini-embassy thing was just a reminder that some of these grievances against flags and whatnots are trivial.

Frankly I think Nagaland is a much better comparator. Luckily for them, they're majority Christian. For now, anyway.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:57 pm

Restrictions partially lifted from Kashmir,
Curfew to be completely removed from Jammu tomorrow, and in a very sad news for vested interests, its all peaceful.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... gFDpK.html

I have unwavering faith in dedication and commitment of my nations security apparatus which no E L or P can shake.

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