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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:40 am

On YouTube, the India Today Channel has live coverage now of the Lower House LS (Lok Sabha) debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arhjhHeuRUc

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYPvAw ... MW8qs7cVCw
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
LH658
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Kashmir

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:50 am

India recently has been under fire for removing Article 370, which will remove special status in Kashmir. Already been many incident in Kashmir of India track record against Kashmiri people.
What do you think about India action?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... l-backfire
 
LH658
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:22 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Ha - yes. Go ask all those refugees in Dharamsala what they think about what's happening to their former homeland in the name of "economics".

Why even pretend that this is about something as sophisticated as economic mobility. It's not. It's about changing the demographics. Everyone knows that: why do you think a "democracy" has had to implement martial law (or something pretty damn close) to implement this? No internet, no cell phones, curfews, house arrests, businesses closed. It's chillingly alien to anyone who lives in a functioning democracy. .

Last I checked, Tibet is not part of India, and has never been. India just offers them the place to run their Government In Exile.

Explain why J&K needs special status different from any other state. Every other state has been dramatically changed demographically in the past 7 decades. What's so special about J&K that needs its demographics to be preserved ? If the Kashmiris are just as capable of maintaining their own unique culture like any other ethnic group in India, without needing a 'special' article in the constitution that begins with the word TEMPORARY.


Both India Pakistan have a part of Kashmir, Pakistan Kashmir has it own government etc, now end goal was Kashmir on both sides to vote if they want to join India, Pakistan, or be independent.
 
N867DA
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

> Go right ahead. You'll probably get protesters, but I can't see any ban surviving a legal challenge. Could care less.

> Uh, no, that analogy doesn't sound right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Indian Muslims retain all their constitutional rights under the Indian constitution. The Indian constitution does not get replaced by these personal law boards, so your hypothetical situation does not appear to be valid.

> Cordoning off a state to stop its religious demographic being changed by mass migration, potentially by people who are openly hostile to that religion (India has a lot of those, no), seems to make eminent sense. At least until the majority of the population are enlightened enough to not treat people of that group as inferior to animals. We haven't reached that point yet - at the individual level. Too many crazies running around. In any event, what's your plan with 371? Going after them next?

> Cost does not strike me as a reasonable basis for treating citizens unequally.

> Behind the smoke and mirrors ("integration"), revoking article 370 is about changing the demographic make up of Kashmir. We're seeing this happen north and east of India. One can remain wilfully blind, but that's reality. The Kashmiris know it. You know it. I know it. The Indian government knows it. Why else do you think they're in lockdown?


Well, I suppose you're right. There will be changes to the demographic make up of Kashmir. I'd wager the Indian government's response would be, "so what?". States in India aren't immune to demographic changes. Some towns become more Muslim over the years, some become more Hindu, or Christian, or whatever. That's just internal migration. I can see why Kashmiris may want to preserve their unique culture...but Bengaluru has a record number of non-Kannada speakers in it, and a significant portion of rickshaw drivers in Chennai know far better Hindi than Tamil. If the Centre feels Kashmir should be treated like any other state in the country, then of course they accept internal migration will change the demographic composition of the area.

The lockdown and interference with communications (including phone and internet) is worrisome to me and I disagree with these actions. I understand it's to prevent unrest in a volatile region, but it makes it seem like something clandestine is going on. I can see why: There are rules in place to prevent Whatsapp messages from being forwarded excessively to prevent the spread of rumors--people have literally died due accusations on social media in India. That said, pulling communications with the outside world is wrong in this case. We'll see how soon the lockdown is removed and what next steps are. The situation is still very tense.


The difference, I think you'll agree, is that Karnataka etc have not been under a state of siege for the better part of three decades, nor are there any groups out there that explicitly want to rid Karnatakans of their religion or culture because they view it as inferior, or because they've got centuries-old religious axes (and associated inferiority complexes) to grind. Can anyone objective say that about Kashmir?

The "so what", then, is ethnic cleansing. Whether one supports that or not is down to personal values. I find it morally reprehensible. Evidently many Indiams don't. What I find odd is the obfuscation - that this is somehow about something more noble than ethnic cleansing. It's not. Why lie?

At this point in time, the disruption this will cause to one minority community will be magnitudes more damaging on a per capita basis than the benefits accrued by the majority (on a per capita basis). And they haven't even been consulted on it. In any civilized country, that wouldn't be an acceptable method or outcome.

That they had to shut everything down to do it is indicative of the fact that it wasn't done with the consent of those most affected. That's not a mark of a mature democracy. Like I said, this is a significant marker of where India is in terms of democratic and civilizational development. Roughly where North America was 200 years ago. Any sense of moral or civilizational parity can now be put to rest.


> No one thinks Islam or Kashmiri culture is inferior. No one is even trying to change their religion or get rid of Kashmiris, or even force them to move to Pakistan or another Muslim country.There has been decades of militancy that has driven out or killed droves of people over the years, but perhaps the end result of this action is to bring in development so most people can move past it? I think you're using the word 'ethnic cleansing' very lightly. The way you're using it akin to saying the nice parts of Brooklyn have been ethnically cleansed. Has Kashmir been ethnically cleansed of Hindus? Tamil Nadu of Brahmins? My own native place has swung from a predominantly Hindu district to a minority-majority district and no one really cares. If a person truly believes Kashmir---and Kashmiris-- are Indians then they would want a country where Kashmir is as open to them as the rest of India is to Kashmir. The only crummy thing this does is make it harder for Kashmir to be an independent country, particularly if investment, tourism, and integrating with India ushers in development.

For what it's worth there are definitely centuries-old tensions across cultural lines all across India. They are based on language, on caste, on religion (or religious practices)...all sorts of things. Following the 'special status for Kashmir' principle to the end means dissolving India into 20-odd independent countries with a loose union. It's also farfetched to say India is as developed politically as a Western country, but it's certainly a stable modern democracy. I have no doubt in my mind if Congress picked up enough districts this year Rahul Gandhi would be PM right now.

I'm not shying away from pointing out the flaws and screwed up things that happen across in India to people for who they simply are--happens day in, day out. I just don't think this is one of them.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:31 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
There are plenty of Himalayas outside Kashmir. Like I said, go ask the folk in Dharamsala what they made of the arguments you're now adopting.

This will turn India's only Muslim majority state into a Hindu one. That's the end goal. The rest of the explanations are obfuscation. This isn't about property in the Himalayas. Himachal is better for that anyway.

Maybe, but you can't have a nice Taj Mahal Dal Lake someplace else.

What's wrong with J&K being Hindu majority, exactly ? Jammu and Ladakh have always been Hindu and Buddhist majority anyway. It's just the small sliver of Kashmir Valley that's been Muslim majority. Muslims can't live with a large Hindu majority ? Oh wait.. I've heard that one before. Can't quite place it, but a bunch of folks yelled that and demanded a special place for themselves many decades ago. Remember what that was ? :lol:



Glad there two countries, it isn't just Muslims, but also Christians in South in India faced harassment from Hindu Extremist. You have lynching mob over meat, they will beat, kill, make you hit your kids wife, eat/drink cow dung/urine, and etc. You have a PM who was once banned from entering different countries, due to terrorism.

India has over 500,000 troops posted in Kashmir, Kashmiri often face harassment daily.

Kashmir had, Hindu ruler at the time, but was Muslim majority population, Muslim majority went to Pakistan plain, and simple. Pakistan India been at dispute over this since then. Pakistan wouldn't mind a independent Kashmir, in fact Kashmir has it own Prime Minister etc, in Pakistan. Pakistan wants a vote that what Kashmiri folks want independence, or join India or Pakistan. China and India also have a dispute in Kashmir.
 
LH658
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:37 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
Kashmiri Muslims will be upset by this move — but if Pakistan really wants a solution to Kashmir — then this might be endgame. LoC as permanent border — leave the Muslims in Pakistani Kashmir; and everyone else in Indian Kashmir.

Isn’t that how India and Pakistan was designed? I don’t agree with how Pakistan was designed because it hinders Pakistan’s progress — but regardless it is the truth.


Kashmir was suppose to go to Pakistan all together, according Lord Mountbatten and Radcliffe. Muslim majority area are suppose to be for Pakistan, obviously the Hyderabad area of India was impossible to do that or states like Bhopal.
 
N867DA
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:44 pm

LH658 wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
There are plenty of Himalayas outside Kashmir. Like I said, go ask the folk in Dharamsala what they made of the arguments you're now adopting.

This will turn India's only Muslim majority state into a Hindu one. That's the end goal. The rest of the explanations are obfuscation. This isn't about property in the Himalayas. Himachal is better for that anyway.

Maybe, but you can't have a nice Taj Mahal Dal Lake someplace else.

What's wrong with J&K being Hindu majority, exactly ? Jammu and Ladakh have always been Hindu and Buddhist majority anyway. It's just the small sliver of Kashmir Valley that's been Muslim majority. Muslims can't live with a large Hindu majority ? Oh wait.. I've heard that one before. Can't quite place it, but a bunch of folks yelled that and demanded a special place for themselves many decades ago. Remember what that was ? :lol:



Glad there two countries, it isn't just Muslims, but also Christians in South in India faced harassment from Hindu Extremist. You have lynching mob over meat, they will beat, kill, make you hit your kids wife, eat/drink cow dung/urine, and etc. You have a PM who was once banned from entering different countries, due to terrorism.

India has over 500,000 troops posted in Kashmir, Kashmiri often face harassment daily.

Kashmir had, Hindu ruler at the time, but was Muslim majority population, Muslim majority went to Pakistan plain, and simple. Pakistan India been at dispute over this since then. Pakistan wouldn't mind a independent Kashmir, in fact Kashmir has it own Prime Minister etc, in Pakistan. Pakistan wants a vote that what Kashmiri folks want independence, or join India or Pakistan. China and India also have a dispute in Kashmir.


Dialog like this isn't very constructive imho. A quick google search will bring up all kinds of horrible things that happen in the name of religion in both countries.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
LH658
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:49 pm

N867DA wrote:
LH658 wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
Maybe, but you can't have a nice Taj Mahal Dal Lake someplace else.

What's wrong with J&K being Hindu majority, exactly ? Jammu and Ladakh have always been Hindu and Buddhist majority anyway. It's just the small sliver of Kashmir Valley that's been Muslim majority. Muslims can't live with a large Hindu majority ? Oh wait.. I've heard that one before. Can't quite place it, but a bunch of folks yelled that and demanded a special place for themselves many decades ago. Remember what that was ? :lol:



Glad there two countries, it isn't just Muslims, but also Christians in South in India faced harassment from Hindu Extremist. You have lynching mob over meat, they will beat, kill, make you hit your kids wife, eat/drink cow dung/urine, and etc. You have a PM who was once banned from entering different countries, due to terrorism.

India has over 500,000 troops posted in Kashmir, Kashmiri often face harassment daily.

Kashmir had, Hindu ruler at the time, but was Muslim majority population, Muslim majority went to Pakistan plain, and simple. Pakistan India been at dispute over this since then. Pakistan wouldn't mind a independent Kashmir, in fact Kashmir has it own Prime Minister etc, in Pakistan. Pakistan wants a vote that what Kashmiri folks want independence, or join India or Pakistan. China and India also have a dispute in Kashmir.


Dialog like this isn't very constructive imho. A quick google search will bring up all kinds of horrible things that happen in the name of religion in both countries.


Will love to see dialogue between Pakistan, and India. Though some reason why? India doesn't want to come to the table. Now is the best time as PM Khan is the most sensible government in Pakistan. I am glad both countries are working on Kartarpur Corridor, allowing Sikhs to visit holy sites on both sides of the border.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:28 pm

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Well, I suppose you're right. There will be changes to the demographic make up of Kashmir. I'd wager the Indian government's response would be, "so what?". States in India aren't immune to demographic changes. Some towns become more Muslim over the years, some become more Hindu, or Christian, or whatever. That's just internal migration. I can see why Kashmiris may want to preserve their unique culture...but Bengaluru has a record number of non-Kannada speakers in it, and a significant portion of rickshaw drivers in Chennai know far better Hindi than Tamil. If the Centre feels Kashmir should be treated like any other state in the country, then of course they accept internal migration will change the demographic composition of the area.

The lockdown and interference with communications (including phone and internet) is worrisome to me and I disagree with these actions. I understand it's to prevent unrest in a volatile region, but it makes it seem like something clandestine is going on. I can see why: There are rules in place to prevent Whatsapp messages from being forwarded excessively to prevent the spread of rumors--people have literally died due accusations on social media in India. That said, pulling communications with the outside world is wrong in this case. We'll see how soon the lockdown is removed and what next steps are. The situation is still very tense.


The difference, I think you'll agree, is that Karnataka etc have not been under a state of siege for the better part of three decades, nor are there any groups out there that explicitly want to rid Karnatakans of their religion or culture because they view it as inferior, or because they've got centuries-old religious axes (and associated inferiority complexes) to grind. Can anyone objective say that about Kashmir?

The "so what", then, is ethnic cleansing. Whether one supports that or not is down to personal values. I find it morally reprehensible. Evidently many Indiams don't. What I find odd is the obfuscation - that this is somehow about something more noble than ethnic cleansing. It's not. Why lie?

At this point in time, the disruption this will cause to one minority community will be magnitudes more damaging on a per capita basis than the benefits accrued by the majority (on a per capita basis). And they haven't even been consulted on it. In any civilized country, that wouldn't be an acceptable method or outcome.

That they had to shut everything down to do it is indicative of the fact that it wasn't done with the consent of those most affected. That's not a mark of a mature democracy. Like I said, this is a significant marker of where India is in terms of democratic and civilizational development. Roughly where North America was 200 years ago. Any sense of moral or civilizational parity can now be put to rest.


> No one thinks Islam or Kashmiri culture is inferior. No one is even trying to change their religion or get rid of Kashmiris, or even force them to move to Pakistan or another Muslim country.There has been decades of militancy that has driven out or killed droves of people over the years, but perhaps the end result of this action is to bring in development so most people can move past it? I think you're using the word 'ethnic cleansing' very lightly. The way you're using it akin to saying the nice parts of Brooklyn have been ethnically cleansed. Has Kashmir been ethnically cleansed of Hindus? Tamil Nadu of Brahmins? My own native place has swung from a predominantly Hindu district to a minority-majority district and no one really cares. If a person truly believes Kashmir---and Kashmiris-- are Indians then they would want a country where Kashmir is as open to them as the rest of India is to Kashmir. The only crummy thing this does is make it harder for Kashmir to be an independent country, particularly if investment, tourism, and integrating with India ushers in development.

For what it's worth there are definitely centuries-old tensions across cultural lines all across India. They are based on language, on caste, on religion (or religious practices)...all sorts of things. Following the 'special status for Kashmir' principle to the end means dissolving India into 20-odd independent countries with a loose union. It's also farfetched to say India is as developed politically as a Western country, but it's certainly a stable modern democracy. I have no doubt in my mind if Congress picked up enough districts this year Rahul Gandhi would be PM right now.

I'm not shying away from pointing out the flaws and screwed up things that happen across in India to people for who they simply are--happens day in, day out. I just don't think this is one of them.


Kashmiri? I wasnt refereeing to them alone. I was referring to Muslims in general. They're seen as inferior. Ask a well-paid, educated Muslim trying to look for a place to rent in the Indian metros. It'll be an eye opener.

Anyway, I don't know how this issue of viewing Muslims as inferior or lesser citizens is a subject for debate. Remember this from earlier this year?

""We will remove every single infiltrator from the country, except Buddha, Hindus and Sikhs," Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) president Amit Shah told supporters in West Bengal on Thursday."

It's on the official twitter page too. For 11 April. (If I knew how to post screenshots, I would).

With ethnic cleansing, as with everything else, of it talks like a duck and walks like a duck...
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:44 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

The difference, I think you'll agree, is that Karnataka etc have not been under a state of siege for the better part of three decades, nor are there any groups out there that explicitly want to rid Karnatakans of their religion or culture because they view it as inferior, or because they've got centuries-old religious axes (and associated inferiority complexes) to grind. Can anyone objective say that about Kashmir?

The "so what", then, is ethnic cleansing. Whether one supports that or not is down to personal values. I find it morally reprehensible. Evidently many Indiams don't. What I find odd is the obfuscation - that this is somehow about something more noble than ethnic cleansing. It's not. Why lie?

At this point in time, the disruption this will cause to one minority community will be magnitudes more damaging on a per capita basis than the benefits accrued by the majority (on a per capita basis). And they haven't even been consulted on it. In any civilized country, that wouldn't be an acceptable method or outcome.

That they had to shut everything down to do it is indicative of the fact that it wasn't done with the consent of those most affected. That's not a mark of a mature democracy. Like I said, this is a significant marker of where India is in terms of democratic and civilizational development. Roughly where North America was 200 years ago. Any sense of moral or civilizational parity can now be put to rest.


> No one thinks Islam or Kashmiri culture is inferior. No one is even trying to change their religion or get rid of Kashmiris, or even force them to move to Pakistan or another Muslim country.There has been decades of militancy that has driven out or killed droves of people over the years, but perhaps the end result of this action is to bring in development so most people can move past it? I think you're using the word 'ethnic cleansing' very lightly. The way you're using it akin to saying the nice parts of Brooklyn have been ethnically cleansed. Has Kashmir been ethnically cleansed of Hindus? Tamil Nadu of Brahmins? My own native place has swung from a predominantly Hindu district to a minority-majority district and no one really cares. If a person truly believes Kashmir---and Kashmiris-- are Indians then they would want a country where Kashmir is as open to them as the rest of India is to Kashmir. The only crummy thing this does is make it harder for Kashmir to be an independent country, particularly if investment, tourism, and integrating with India ushers in development.

For what it's worth there are definitely centuries-old tensions across cultural lines all across India. They are based on language, on caste, on religion (or religious practices)...all sorts of things. Following the 'special status for Kashmir' principle to the end means dissolving India into 20-odd independent countries with a loose union. It's also farfetched to say India is as developed politically as a Western country, but it's certainly a stable modern democracy. I have no doubt in my mind if Congress picked up enough districts this year Rahul Gandhi would be PM right now.

I'm not shying away from pointing out the flaws and screwed up things that happen across in India to people for who they simply are--happens day in, day out. I just don't think this is one of them.


Kashmiri? I wasnt refereeing to them alone. I was referring to Muslims in general. They're seen as inferior. Ask a well-paid, educated Muslim trying to look for a place to rent in the Indian metros. It'll be an eye opener.

Anyway, I don't know how this issue of viewing Muslims as inferior or lesser citizens is a subject for debate. Remember this from earlier this year?

""We will remove every single infiltrator from the country, except Buddha, Hindus and Sikhs," Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) president Amit Shah told supporters in West Bengal on Thursday."

It's on the official twitter page too. For 11 April. (If I knew how to post screenshots, I would).

With ethnic cleansing, as with everything else, of it talks like a duck and walks like a duck...


I think we'll simply have to agree to disagree and hope everything turns out for the best. There are challenges in implementation and process but I still see bringing Kashmir into the Indian cornucopia as an ultimately good thing. Time will tell.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:33 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Right. Political parties agree that it is politically expedient to throw a minority group under the bus, therefore it's ok. Yeah no. See above. That's not democracy; that's a tyranny of the majority.

Except that the 'large minority group' isn't complaining. Do you see angry agitations by Muslims all over India ? Go on. Prove that the Muslims of India are the target of the removal of Article 370.

Do you realize that a non-Kashmiri MUSLIM cannot reside or own property in Kashmir ? Same as a non-Kashmiri Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Jain/Christian ?
 
BarfBag
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:34 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
And yet it is an indisputable fact that minorities tend to be more vulnerable than majorities.

Which is exactly why you should be supporting the elimination of Article 370. It makes the minorities of J&K safe. The minorities in J&K aren't Muslim, but the Hindus and Buddhists who were terrorized for decades.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:50 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Right. Political parties agree that it is politically expedient to throw a minority group under the bus, therefore it's ok. Yeah no. See above. That's not democracy; that's a tyranny of the majority.

Except that the 'large minority group' isn't complaining. Do you see angry agitations by Muslims all over India ? Go on. Prove that the Muslims of India are the target of the removal of Article 370.

Do you realize that a non-Kashmiri MUSLIM cannot reside or own property in Kashmir ? Same as a non-Kashmiri Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Jain/Christian ?


I don't follow. Are you arguing that Kashmiri Muslims are not a minority in India because they're a majority in Kashmir? Grasping for straws there, buddy. Easy group to throw under the bus when there's hundreds of millions of votes to be gained.

Why aren't Kashmiri Muslims rioting? Must have something to do with the imposition of something that can only be described as martial law. Spin it however you want, it's obvious to everyone that the group that stands to lose the most wasn't even consulted. Instead, they were locked away. In fact they're still having their basic freedoms curtailed.

Sorry bro - that's not democracy.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:52 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
And yet it is an indisputable fact that minorities tend to be more vulnerable than majorities.

Which is exactly why you should be supporting the elimination of Article 370. It makes the minorities of J&K safe. The minorities in J&K aren't Muslim, but the Hindus and Buddhists who were terrorized for decades.


Go on. Explain how a hindu in Kashmir today is safer than he was last week. The terrorism isn't going to go away (Pakistan still exists), and the communal tensions aren't going to go down - hence the Pakistan-style martial lockdown clone going on there.
 
BarfBag
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:56 pm

It's also farfetched to say India is as developed politically as a Western country, but it's certainly a stable modern democracy.

Oh, which western country is more developed politically ?

The US ?
* Unlike India, the apex judiciary in the US is not autonomous but appointed by the executive. Every vacant seat becomes a pitched battle to foist a preferred jurist. The country could be set back decades because of an opportune set of judiciary replacements.
* Supreme court judges are life appointees. An absurd idea if there ever was one.
* Runs prison camps for asylum seekers.
* Has by a long distance the highest incarceration rate of any developed country, with specific emphasis on jailing minorities.
* Has an out of control gun culture with zero political consensus to address it.

The UK ?
* Currently busy trying to destroy itself in multiple possible ways.
* The primary national political discourse focuses on an act of xenophobic separatism, entirely the reverse of what the elimination of Art 370 attempts to do.
* Refuge to half of India's corrupt businessmen on the lam, ably protected by a legal system that focuses on attracting any dirty money - Russian included.

My point here isn't to mock the US or UK. It's an assertion of the fact that there isn't a single 'western country' without a large number of constitutional, historical and structural compromises in its functioning and existence, and none of them have any specific claim to some self-styled elevated standing.

Every last Indian expat living outside India needs to realize that the Indian state, for all its issues, enabled your families to gain an education and skill set to work abroad. The Indians living and working abroad aren't some small elite from old money - the vast majority of them are the first generation to ever see economic development. If you went to IIT, cool - the Indian government established a school so extremely good that you got a world class education at a fraction of the price you'd pay anywhere else.

This thread is incredibly disappointing in the extent of vehemence AGAINST a law that does absolutely nothing more than apply the same constitutional law to every citizen everywhere in India.

One would imagine such a law would receive universal commendation from all Indians, but no, we have British Remainers standing on their heads vehemently demanding Brexit terms for one ethnic (not even religious as they imagine, but ethnic) demographic in far away India.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:03 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Right. Political parties agree that it is politically expedient to throw a minority group under the bus, therefore it's ok. Yeah no. See above. That's not democracy; that's a tyranny of the majority.

Except that the 'large minority group' isn't complaining. Do you see angry agitations by Muslims all over India ? Go on. Prove that the Muslims of India are the target of the removal of Article 370.

Do you realize that a non-Kashmiri MUSLIM cannot reside or own property in Kashmir ? Same as a non-Kashmiri Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh/Jain/Christian ?


I don't follow. Are you arguing that Kashmiri Muslims are not a minority in India because they're a majority in Kashmir? Grasping for straws there, buddy. Easy group to throw under the bus when there's hundreds of millions of votes to be gained.



Outside of this conversation, how do you think the 'Kashmir issue', whatever that entails to you, should be resolved?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:07 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
I don't follow. Are you arguing that Kashmiri Muslims are not a minority in India because they're a majority in Kashmir? Grasping for straws there, buddy. Easy group to throw under the bus when there's hundreds of millions of votes to be gained.

Ah, but Kashmir is 'different' - it was a whole 'country' to itself until yesterday. Own flag, own constitution (with duplicate laws as the Indian one), residency restrictions, and more. The minority of Kashmir is not the same as the minority in ROI.
ElPistolero wrote:
Why aren't Kashmiri Muslims rioting? Must have something to do with the imposition of something that can only be described as martial law. Spin it however you want, it's obvious to everyone that the group that stands to lose the most wasn't even consulted. Instead, they were locked away. In fact they're still having their basic freedoms curtailed.

So let's clarify, since you interchangeably use "Muslims" and "Kashmiri Muslims" - you only mean Kashmiri Muslims when you scream "will someone PLEASE think of the children", right ?

Population of Muslims in India: ~200 million
Population of Muslims in Jammu & Kashmir: 70% of 12 million.
Population of Muslims outside J&K: 192 million
Percentage of Indian Muslims outside Kashmir rioting: 0%
Potential causes for non-Kashmiri Muslims in India to riot: None
Percentage of Kashmiri Muslims rioting: 0% (supposedly because their sweetheart arrangement - that no other ethnic group in India has - is gone)

Go on, explain again - why do you support an exclusive arrangement supporting 8 million people, that 190 million+ of their co-religionists , and another 1000 million people of other religions, in the SAME country - do not have.

What's special about these 8 million people that they can't survive like all the multitude of sub-ethnicities in India can ?
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:12 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Go on. Explain how a hindu in Kashmir today is safer than he was last week. The terrorism isn't going to go away (Pakistan still exists), and the communal tensions aren't going to go down - hence the Pakistan-style martial lockdown clone going on there.

Ok, you do not appear to understand the Indian political system. Indian civics pop quiz for you:

Law and Order is on the :
Union List
Concurrent List
State List

You'll probably cheat and google this, but hey I have to ask. Most of the non Indians posting here with definitive claims about the Indian system don't even know what these lists are, much less what's on them.
 
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:21 pm

Honestly guys I have never felt more proud as an Indian than now. Modi hai to mumkin hai !!

On a side-note, there's really no reason to waste your time arguing against disillusioned minds

Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:44 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!

:checkmark:
The ENTIRE spectrum of the Indian business and entertainment world - even the Kashmiri origin ones - are in support of this act.

Even the AAP, typically kneejerk in its voting against BJP, supported the Act. It passed in both RS and LS by over 70% (almost 85% in LS) - neither of which could be accomplished by the BJP alone, since they don't have anywhere close to that much legislative control.

Voted FOR: BJP, AIADMK, TRS, TDP, AAP, YSRCP and several others, aggregating 70% in RS, 85% in LS.
Voted AGAINST: Cong, Communists, TMC

That' right - half the OPPOSITION votes in support, in the middle of which the guy in charge of making sure everyone in Cong voted against, himself refused to vote against and quit.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:55 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
I don't follow. Are you arguing that Kashmiri Muslims are not a minority in India because they're a majority in Kashmir? Grasping for straws there, buddy. Easy group to throw under the bus when there's hundreds of millions of votes to be gained.

Ah, but Kashmir is 'different' - it was a whole 'country' to itself until yesterday. Own flag, own constitution (with duplicate laws as the Indian one), residency restrictions, and more. The minority of Kashmir is not the same as the minority in ROI.
ElPistolero wrote:
Why aren't Kashmiri Muslims rioting? Must have something to do with the imposition of something that can only be described as martial law. Spin it however you want, it's obvious to everyone that the group that stands to lose the most wasn't even consulted. Instead, they were locked away. In fact they're still having their basic freedoms curtailed.

So let's clarify, since you interchangeably use "Muslims" and "Kashmiri Muslims" - you only mean Kashmiri Muslims when you scream "will someone PLEASE think of the children", right ?

Population of Muslims in India: ~200 million
Population of Muslims in Jammu & Kashmir: 70% of 12 million.
Population of Muslims outside J&K: 192 million
Percentage of Indian Muslims outside Kashmir rioting: 0%
Potential causes for non-Kashmiri Muslims in India to riot: None
Percentage of Kashmiri Muslims rioting: 0% (supposedly because their sweetheart arrangement - that no other ethnic group in India has - is gone)

Go on, explain again - why do you support an exclusive arrangement supporting 8 million people, that 190 million+ of their co-religionists , and another 1000 million people of other religions, in the SAME country - do not have.

What's special about these 8 million people that they can't survive like all the multitude of sub-ethnicities in India can ?


> Your first argument is only valid if the revocation was done in Kashmir by the Kashmiri legislature. Try again.

> Different country?!? What does that make the Indian military deployment there for the past 30 years? Military occupation of a foreign nation? Might want to think things through before you start toeing the Pakistani line.

> Demographic change. See above. Or article 371 for that matter. Still don't know what it is, do you? Being a one trick pony is all the rage these days.

> What's with the obsession with riots? Is that the only valid way of expressing disagreement in your eyes? Look at the response from various groups - even the north Easterners. It's all over the internet (outside Hindutva echo chambers anyway).

Here's a simple solution that can make both of us happy. Have a referendum on the revocation in Kashmir. Let Kashmiris decide. That would satisfy democratic requirements and address virtually all of my objections. How about it?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:58 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Honestly guys I have never felt more proud as an Indian than now. Modi hai to mumkin hai !!

On a side-note, there's really no reason to waste your time arguing against disillusioned minds

Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!


Yeah, it's that kind of simple-minded logic that convinced the Indian Supreme Court that Indian citizens don't have the intellectual aptitude to serve on juries. No sense of what you're dealing with. All about emotions and "me, me, me".
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:13 pm

ElPistolero wrote:

Here's a simple solution that can make both of us happy. Have a referendum on the revocation in Kashmir. Let Kashmiris decide. That would satisfy democratic requirements and address virtually all of my objections. How about it?


Kashmiris or for that matter, any Indian doesn't have the authority to draw national boundaries. Democracy is about choosing your representatives not choosing national boundaries

Your idea is a very poor one.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:23 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Honestly guys I have never felt more proud as an Indian than now. Modi hai to mumkin hai !!

On a side-note, there's really no reason to waste your time arguing against disillusioned minds

Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!


Yeah, it's that kind of simple-minded logic that convinced the Indian Supreme Court that Indian citizens don't have the intellectual aptitude to serve on juries. No sense of what you're dealing with. All about emotions and "me, me, me".


Nice to see the argument's devolved to, "they're dumb and don't know better than I do!".

This move was in the works for many months, was literally part of the party platform, and an idea that has been kicked around for months. I really do not think your opinions serve as an advocate for minorities anymore. They are an advocate for Muslims in certain parts of India. Nothing wrong with that, because it is important to get that perspective but it's disingenuous to mask that with pseudo-egalitarianism.

Ultimately, if this brings in investment, infrastructure, and and improvements to the standard of living for Kashmiris (yes, all Kashmiris) this will be a great move. Regardless of what man in the sky an Indian believes in they are Indian. Welcome to the bigs!
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:27 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Or article 371 for that matter.

By all means (assuming you are an Indian national, which I don't think you are), form a party advocating elimination of Art 371. Get votes in support. Get it done.

The problem with your argument is 'So BJP's done A. Why hasn't it done B C D ... Z ??'

The answer to that is simple - the BJP implemented an item in their manifesto. This item in fact, was the very basis by which its political precessor was founded. The removal of Art 371 isn't one of their political priorities. Anyone else is welcome to advocate it.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:28 pm

anshabhi wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Here's a simple solution that can make both of us happy. Have a referendum on the revocation in Kashmir. Let Kashmiris decide. That would satisfy democratic requirements and address virtually all of my objections. How about it?


Kashmiris or for that matter, any Indian doesn't have the authority to draw national boundaries. Democracy is about choosing your representatives not choosing national boundaries

Your idea is a very poor one.


Giving Kashmiris a vote on matters that affect them is a poor idea.

In a democracy.

Will the wonders never cease?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:32 pm

BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Or article 371 for that matter.

By all means (assuming you are an Indian national, which I don't think you are), form a party advocating elimination of Art 371. Get votes in support. Get it done.

The problem with your argument is 'So BJP's done A. Why hasn't it done B C D ... Z ??'

The answer to that is simple - the BJP implemented an item in their manifesto. This item in fact, was the very basis by which its political precessor was founded. The removal of Art 371 isn't one of their political priorities. Anyone else is welcome to advocate it.


And there it is. After all that nonsense about the issue being about economics and equality and rights for Indians, you shy away from implementing the same measures in other states in India.

It would be a lot easier for us to follow your arguments if you actually said what you really believed. Seems to me this was never about economics and equality. Only about putting those Kashmiri Muslims in their place.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:35 pm

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Honestly guys I have never felt more proud as an Indian than now. Modi hai to mumkin hai !!

On a side-note, there's really no reason to waste your time arguing against disillusioned minds

Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!


Yeah, it's that kind of simple-minded logic that convinced the Indian Supreme Court that Indian citizens don't have the intellectual aptitude to serve on juries. No sense of what you're dealing with. All about emotions and "me, me, me".


Nice to see the argument's devolved to, "they're dumb and don't know better than I do!".

This move was in the works for many months, was literally part of the party platform, and an idea that has been kicked around for months. I really do not think your opinions serve as an advocate for minorities anymore. They are an advocate for Muslims in certain parts of India. Nothing wrong with that, because it is important to get that perspective but it's disingenuous to mask that with pseudo-egalitarianism.

Ultimately, if this brings in investment, infrastructure, and and improvements to the standard of living for Kashmiris (yes, all Kashmiris) this will be a great move. Regardless of what man in the sky an Indian believes in they are Indian. Welcome to the bigs!


I'm sorry but when someone's justification for constitutional changes is "this is great - I can buy a second house", commenting on its intellectual substance is fair game. Why not call a spade a spade.

So, time to strip 371 in the name of equality and economic development?

( I ll answer your other question later).
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:44 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
I'm sorry but when someone's justification for constitutional changes

Halfway into your first sentence and you're already wrong. This is NOT a constitutional change. It is:
1. a Presidential Order enabled by Art 370, with similar Presidential Orders passed approximately FIFTY times between 1950 and 2018.
2. a Legislative act covered by Art 3 and 4, on the same lines as the 2014 AP Reorganization Act.

Just because the legislative bill passed in RS and LS with >2/3rds majority isn't meant to suggest they were CA bills. They were regular bills - they just happened to receive assent from far more than the requirement for a CA bill. It's nothing more than the reflection of broad parliamentary support.

The nature of Art 370 is that it was negotiated with the ability to give the Indian President sweeping powers to expand the remit of the Indian constitution over J&K, to the extent of allowing the President to make the article inoperative, which is what was just done.
Last edited by BarfBag on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:45 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
I'm sorry but when someone's justification for constitutional changes is "this is great - I can buy a second house", commenting on its intellectual substance is fair game. Why not call a spade a spade.

So, time to strip 371 in the name of equality and economic development?

( I ll answer your other question later).


Do you know anything about the insurgency in Punjab in 1980's? Indian govt had to take many tough steps back then too, which have resulted in a progressive Punjab today.
It's time for Kashmir now.

The best thing for us to do is just sit back and enjoy the show.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:48 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Kashmiris or for that matter, any Indian doesn't have the authority to draw national boundaries.


No, much better for national boundaries to be drawn by the British than by the people actually living there. Worked great in the Middle East as well.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:54 pm

AeroVega wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Kashmiris or for that matter, any Indian doesn't have the authority to draw national boundaries.


No, much better for national boundaries to be drawn by the British than by the people actually living there. Worked great in the Middle East as well.


Today nuclear missiles are the only reason why national boundaries exist as it is. Yeah 70 years ago they were the British. But sorry, People residing in any region don't have any rights to carve out a new country.

Think of why is California not a country yet?
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2572
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:18 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
And there it is. After all that nonsense about the issue being about economics and equality and rights for Indians, you shy away from implementing the same measures in other states in India.

Who is 'you' in this context ? Me ? I'm a private individual, not Modi himself. The BJP ? You understand how politics and party manifestos work ? They contain a small collection of goals that the party attempts to ideally accomplish. They get elected, giving them a mandate, within which they attempt to implement their goals.

In reality, at the best of times, parties barely give lip service to their own manifestos. We have a situation here where a party actually got something that's been on its manifesto for decades, done at the very first opportunity when they had the comprehensive legislative and executive power to accomplish it (they did not have sufficient strength in RS between 2014-19).

Unrealistic arguments that demand "shame! why haven't they done every last thing already ?" sound great as a response, but have you ever attempted to run a business or even been a professional manager by attempting to do everything and then running down those who get tasks done by berating them for not simultaneously getting everything else done too ? Must be quite a great way to manage business, that.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:13 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
And there it is. After all that nonsense about the issue being about economics and equality and rights for Indians, you shy away from implementing the same measures in other states in India.

Who is 'you' in this context ? Me ? I'm a private individual, not Modi himself. The BJP ? You understand how politics and party manifestos work ? They contain a small collection of goals that the party attempts to ideally accomplish. They get elected, giving them a mandate, within which they attempt to implement their goals.

In reality, at the best of times, parties barely give lip service to their own manifestos. We have a situation here where a party actually got something that's been on its manifesto for decades, done at the very first opportunity when they had the comprehensive legislative and executive power to accomplish it (they did not have sufficient strength in RS between 2014-19).

Unrealistic arguments that demand "shame! why haven't they done every last thing already ?" sound great as a response, but have you ever attempted to run a business or even been a professional manager by attempting to do everything and then running down those who get tasks done by berating them for not simultaneously getting everything else done too ? Must be quite a great way to manage business, that.


Oh, you know. Anyone who pretends that this is about equality and economic development and blah blah when it's really just about petty vindictiveness driven by an inferiority complex traceable to wrongs committed hundreds of years ago.

"You" all know who "you" are.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:21 pm

anshabhi wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
I'm sorry but when someone's justification for constitutional changes is "this is great - I can buy a second house", commenting on its intellectual substance is fair game. Why not call a spade a spade.

So, time to strip 371 in the name of equality and economic development?

( I ll answer your other question later).


Do you know anything about the insurgency in Punjab in 1980's? Indian govt had to take many tough steps back then too, which have resulted in a progressive Punjab today.
It's time for Kashmir now.

The best thing for us to do is just sit back and enjoy the show.


Probably more than you, coming from a Hindu family that was one of the largest landowners in Punjab (both sides) for the better part of 300 years.

Even this argument is a gross over simplification. The Punjab issue could have been resolved in many ways, including without the "tough actions" (extrajudicial killings?). Causation isn't that simple. Unless you believe that Pearl Harbor or the Holocaust were good ideas because, hey, look at how well Japan and Germany are doing.

The revocation of Article 370 and renewed prosperity in the state can be achieved through many ways. I contend that the way it's been done is one of the worst possible options, even if things improve in 60 years. Why? Because the human cost and suffering associated with this approach will likely be higher than it needs to be.

It is often beneficial to think things through.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:51 pm

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Honestly guys I have never felt more proud as an Indian than now. Modi hai to mumkin hai !!

On a side-note, there's really no reason to waste your time arguing against disillusioned minds

Btw, I feel great about thinking that I can now own a home in Heaven on Earth tooo wohooo !! Its literally the best gift I could give to my parents for their retirement.
Many Indians are eager to have a 2nd home in Kashmir.

A major boost in property rates and jobs and economy for locals is on the offing !!


Yeah, it's that kind of simple-minded logic that convinced the Indian Supreme Court that Indian citizens don't have the intellectual aptitude to serve on juries. No sense of what you're dealing with. All about emotions and "me, me, me".


Nice to see the argument's devolved to, "they're dumb and don't know better than I do!".

This move was in the works for many months, was literally part of the party platform, and an idea that has been kicked around for months. I really do not think your opinions serve as an advocate for minorities anymore. They are an advocate for Muslims in certain parts of India. Nothing wrong with that, because it is important to get that perspective but it's disingenuous to mask that with pseudo-egalitarianism.

Ultimately, if this brings in investment, infrastructure, and and improvements to the standard of living for Kashmiris (yes, all Kashmiris) this will be a great move. Regardless of what man in the sky an Indian believes in they are Indian. Welcome to the bigs!


Alright, let's break this down.

> The name calling started long before this. Go back to the first page to check. Even you're playing - I guess pseudo-egalitaroan is the new pseudoscular - that favourite insult of the RSS. That said, the daftness inherent in celebrating upending a few million people's lives because it allows one to buy a second house is self-evident. Let's call a spade a spade.

> I stand up for all minorities. Just ask the local RSS mouthpiece. This isn't our first disagreement here. That said, while I can understand how my position can get confusing if you pick and choose from 3 or 4 parallel exchanges, I think you'll find that my position is consistent.

> This thread is about article 370. Article 370 affects one subset of Muslims more than other Muslims in India. That does not, in itself, mean that both groups are exclusive of each other. It is, I think, factually correct to say that it affects one subset more so than others, but it is largely in keeping with a derisive attitude towards the other larger group - and perhaps even other minorities if or when the arguments extend to 371. That they haven't suggests a particular animus to one group. As is evident in one posters waffling on his previously firm stance on equality and one country, one system etc.

> Why do I care about minorities? Because I've gone from being a majority in India to a minority abroad. Look at the rise of the right/alt right/white nationalists in the west. They can win the numbers game handily in any election. The only thing stopping them is good government, strong values and healthy institutions. I know that and appreciate it. Is it wrong to want the same thing for the country I grew up in? You read Shah's quote; implicit in it is one law for Muslims; one for non muslim. I would never accept that kind of second class citizenship abroad; I feel a moral duty to call it out in India too. No one takes hypocrites seriously, I find. And the risks to Indians abroad is beginning to rise.

> That said, there's no ignoring the fact that these Hindu nationalist types are just an Indian variant of white nationalists. Many of them, including posters here, see nothing wrong with a few Muslims being killed here and there because Taimur happened. As a Hindu, I refuse to be complicit in it.

> On to Kashmir. How do you solve it? Normalization and co-opting. That takes time and patience. We know there's bad blood; the army is still on the streets. Ramming through this type of change is more likely to cause damage, than improve the situation. Work the changes through the system slowly. Allow a representative state legislature to do it incrementally - first open to investment (land transfer for exclusively economic purposes), then residency etc. Doing it now with Hindu nationalists surging... you're more likely to end up in a West Bank situation than a prosperous one.

> There's already questions about the constitutionality of this move. The state legislature should have been consulted. It wasn't because there hadn't been one in a year. Why not resurrect that first before pushing through. The fact that a former CM is now suggesting that acceding to Pakistan might have been better points to a real problem of disenfranchisement in some sections of the population. This is the opposite of co-opting them.

> The worst part of it all is that it's driven less by rational analysis, and more by emotion, animus and greed. These themes are self-evident throughout this thread. Millions of people have had their lives upended, but all we get is whataboutery and happiness about buying a second house - the lives of millions of people be damned. Even I admit it's politically expedient, as it was for various European parties to use the Jewish card a century ago among a largely receptive electorate. But it's morally reprehensible. And we already have the lessons from history.

> that is not to say it might not work. Only that there were probably better options there. When prosperity comes, as I hope it does, it has to be judged against the human cost and suffering. This approach will likely result in maximum suffering. That it doesn't affect anyone on this thread doesn't mean it's not happening. We will all be complicit. Only a few twisted minds, I hope, will think it worthwhile. The same folk who think Germany instigating WWII and claiming millions of lives was right to do that, because look at how successful it is today.

So, long story short, it looks they've gone for the West Bank option instead of a less antagonistic one. And it will cost some humans dearly. But hey, some poster here will get a second house. Begs the question: who actually has the best interests of every Indian citizen in mind, rather than their own?
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Yeah, it's that kind of simple-minded logic that convinced the Indian Supreme Court that Indian citizens don't have the intellectual aptitude to serve on juries. No sense of what you're dealing with. All about emotions and "me, me, me".


Nice to see the argument's devolved to, "they're dumb and don't know better than I do!".

This move was in the works for many months, was literally part of the party platform, and an idea that has been kicked around for months. I really do not think your opinions serve as an advocate for minorities anymore. They are an advocate for Muslims in certain parts of India. Nothing wrong with that, because it is important to get that perspective but it's disingenuous to mask that with pseudo-egalitarianism.

Ultimately, if this brings in investment, infrastructure, and and improvements to the standard of living for Kashmiris (yes, all Kashmiris) this will be a great move. Regardless of what man in the sky an Indian believes in they are Indian. Welcome to the bigs!


Alright, let's break this down.

> The name calling started long before this. Go back to the first page to check. Even you're playing - I guess pseudo-egalitaroan is the new pseudoscular - that favourite insult of the RSS. That said, the daftness inherent in celebrating upending a few million people's lives because it allows one to buy a second house is self-evident. Let's call a spade a spade.

> I stand up for all minorities. Just ask the local RSS mouthpiece. This isn't our first disagreement here. That said, while I can understand how my position can get confusing if you pick and choose from 3 or 4 parallel exchanges, I think you'll find that my position is consistent.

> This thread is about article 370. Article 370 affects one subset of Muslims more than other Muslims in India. That does not, in itself, mean that both groups are exclusive of each other. It is, I think, factually correct to say that it affects one subset more so than others, but it is largely in keeping with a derisive attitude towards the other larger group - and perhaps even other minorities if or when the arguments extend to 371. That they haven't suggests a particular animus to one group. As is evident in one posters waffling on his previously firm stance on equality and one country, one system etc.

> Why do I care about minorities? Because I've gone from being a majority in India to a minority abroad. Look at the rise of the right/alt right/white nationalists in the west. They can win the numbers game handily in any election. The only thing stopping them is good government, strong values and healthy institutions. I know that and appreciate it. Is it wrong to want the same thing for the country I grew up in? You read Shah's quote; implicit in it is one law for Muslims; one for non muslim. I would never accept that kind of second class citizenship abroad; I feel a moral duty to call it out in India too. No one takes hypocrites seriously, I find. And the risks to Indians abroad is beginning to rise.

> That said, there's no ignoring the fact that these Hindu nationalist types are just an Indian variant of white nationalists. Many of them, including posters here, see nothing wrong with a few Muslims being killed here and there because Taimur happened. As a Hindu, I refuse to be complicit in it.

> On to Kashmir. How do you solve it? Normalization and co-opting. That takes time and patience. We know there's bad blood; the army is still on the streets. Ramming through this type of change is more likely to cause damage, than improve the situation. Work the changes through the system slowly. Allow a representative state legislature to do it incrementally - first open to investment (land transfer for exclusively economic purposes), then residency etc. Doing it now with Hindu nationalists surging... you're more likely to end up in a West Bank situation than a prosperous one.

> There's already questions about the constitutionality of this move. The state legislature should have been consulted. It wasn't because there hadn't been one in a year. Why not resurrect that first before pushing through. The fact that a former CM is now suggesting that acceding to Pakistan might have been better points to a real problem of disenfranchisement in some sections of the population. This is the opposite of co-opting them.

> The worst part of it all is that it's driven less by rational analysis, and more by emotion, animus and greed. These themes are self-evident throughout this thread. Millions of people have had their lives upended, but all we get is whataboutery and happiness about buying a second house - the lives of millions of people be damned. Even I admit it's politically expedient, as it was for various European parties to use the Jewish card a century ago among a largely receptive electorate. But it's morally reprehensible. And we already have the lessons from history.

> that is not to say it might not work. Only that there were probably better options there. When prosperity comes, as I hope it does, it has to be judged against the human cost and suffering. This approach will likely result in maximum suffering. That it doesn't affect anyone on this thread doesn't mean it's not happening. We will all be complicit. Only a few twisted minds, I hope, will think it worthwhile. The same folk who think Germany instigating WWII and claiming millions of lives was right to do that, because look at how successful it is today.

So, long story short, it looks they've gone for the West Bank option instead of a less antagonistic one. And it will cost some humans dearly. But hey, some poster here will get a second house. Begs the question: who actually has the best interests of every Indian citizen in mind, rather than their own?


Can you explain where the "second home" thing came from?

Sounds like the fork in our mental roads is several stages earlier. I feel Kashmir should stay with India and become just another state, and over time things will improve. I guess if there is disagreement there, then there may not be a way to reconcile our two beliefs. I'm also an immigrant to a new country where I'm a minority. I think it's far easier to be a minority in India than a minority in Kashmir. I don't think having different social rules for people of different religions fosters unity in a country. I really don't even see this as motivated by greed. No one is asked to move, relocate or sell land. If that happens it is very wrong and I'll definitely be against it. Kashmiris have gotten pillaged by all sides, including the Indian Army who has clearly wholesale massacred people in the past. I guess the hope is that by bringing Kashmir into the Indian fold and through development there will be enough opportunity to end the violence. I don't see it at all like what is happening in the West Bank...yet. There is a chance for it, but there was a chance for it when India was set up and annexed Hyderabad. You can see some cracks in society but nothing worse than other places in India, because Andhra is....just another state.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:32 pm

N867DA wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Nice to see the argument's devolved to, "they're dumb and don't know better than I do!".

This move was in the works for many months, was literally part of the party platform, and an idea that has been kicked around for months. I really do not think your opinions serve as an advocate for minorities anymore. They are an advocate for Muslims in certain parts of India. Nothing wrong with that, because it is important to get that perspective but it's disingenuous to mask that with pseudo-egalitarianism.

Ultimately, if this brings in investment, infrastructure, and and improvements to the standard of living for Kashmiris (yes, all Kashmiris) this will be a great move. Regardless of what man in the sky an Indian believes in they are Indian. Welcome to the bigs!


Alright, let's break this down.

> The name calling started long before this. Go back to the first page to check. Even you're playing - I guess pseudo-egalitaroan is the new pseudoscular - that favourite insult of the RSS. That said, the daftness inherent in celebrating upending a few million people's lives because it allows one to buy a second house is self-evident. Let's call a spade a spade.

> I stand up for all minorities. Just ask the local RSS mouthpiece. This isn't our first disagreement here. That said, while I can understand how my position can get confusing if you pick and choose from 3 or 4 parallel exchanges, I think you'll find that my position is consistent.

> This thread is about article 370. Article 370 affects one subset of Muslims more than other Muslims in India. That does not, in itself, mean that both groups are exclusive of each other. It is, I think, factually correct to say that it affects one subset more so than others, but it is largely in keeping with a derisive attitude towards the other larger group - and perhaps even other minorities if or when the arguments extend to 371. That they haven't suggests a particular animus to one group. As is evident in one posters waffling on his previously firm stance on equality and one country, one system etc.

> Why do I care about minorities? Because I've gone from being a majority in India to a minority abroad. Look at the rise of the right/alt right/white nationalists in the west. They can win the numbers game handily in any election. The only thing stopping them is good government, strong values and healthy institutions. I know that and appreciate it. Is it wrong to want the same thing for the country I grew up in? You read Shah's quote; implicit in it is one law for Muslims; one for non muslim. I would never accept that kind of second class citizenship abroad; I feel a moral duty to call it out in India too. No one takes hypocrites seriously, I find. And the risks to Indians abroad is beginning to rise.

> That said, there's no ignoring the fact that these Hindu nationalist types are just an Indian variant of white nationalists. Many of them, including posters here, see nothing wrong with a few Muslims being killed here and there because Taimur happened. As a Hindu, I refuse to be complicit in it.

> On to Kashmir. How do you solve it? Normalization and co-opting. That takes time and patience. We know there's bad blood; the army is still on the streets. Ramming through this type of change is more likely to cause damage, than improve the situation. Work the changes through the system slowly. Allow a representative state legislature to do it incrementally - first open to investment (land transfer for exclusively economic purposes), then residency etc. Doing it now with Hindu nationalists surging... you're more likely to end up in a West Bank situation than a prosperous one.

> There's already questions about the constitutionality of this move. The state legislature should have been consulted. It wasn't because there hadn't been one in a year. Why not resurrect that first before pushing through. The fact that a former CM is now suggesting that acceding to Pakistan might have been better points to a real problem of disenfranchisement in some sections of the population. This is the opposite of co-opting them.

> The worst part of it all is that it's driven less by rational analysis, and more by emotion, animus and greed. These themes are self-evident throughout this thread. Millions of people have had their lives upended, but all we get is whataboutery and happiness about buying a second house - the lives of millions of people be damned. Even I admit it's politically expedient, as it was for various European parties to use the Jewish card a century ago among a largely receptive electorate. But it's morally reprehensible. And we already have the lessons from history.

> that is not to say it might not work. Only that there were probably better options there. When prosperity comes, as I hope it does, it has to be judged against the human cost and suffering. This approach will likely result in maximum suffering. That it doesn't affect anyone on this thread doesn't mean it's not happening. We will all be complicit. Only a few twisted minds, I hope, will think it worthwhile. The same folk who think Germany instigating WWII and claiming millions of lives was right to do that, because look at how successful it is today.

So, long story short, it looks they've gone for the West Bank option instead of a less antagonistic one. And it will cost some humans dearly. But hey, some poster here will get a second house. Begs the question: who actually has the best interests of every Indian citizen in mind, rather than their own?


Can you explain where the "second home" thing came from?

Sounds like the fork in our mental roads is several stages earlier. I feel Kashmir should stay with India and become just another state, and over time things will improve. I guess if there is disagreement there, then there may not be a way to reconcile our two beliefs. I'm also an immigrant to a new country where I'm a minority. I think it's far easier to be a minority in India than a minority in Kashmir. I don't think having different social rules for people of different religions fosters unity in a country. I really don't even see this as motivated by greed. No one is asked to move, relocate or sell land. If that happens it is very wrong and I'll definitely be against it. Kashmiris have gotten pillaged by all sides, including the Indian Army who has clearly wholesale massacred people in the past. I guess the hope is that by bringing Kashmir into the Indian fold and through development there will be enough opportunity to end the violence. I don't see it at all like what is happening in the West Bank...yet. There is a chance for it, but there was a chance for it when India was set up and annexed Hyderabad. You can see some cracks in society but nothing worse than other places in India, because Andhra is....just another state.


> Yes, the second house nonsense is in the post I quoted when you thought I was being too harsh.

> I'm not sure what the "life for a minority in Kashmir" is worse than "life for a minority in India is about. Life for anybody - majority or minority - in Kashmir is worse than life for anyone outside Kashmir. That's the reality of having an army parked in your front yard and terrorists hopping in and out. That's not going to change anytime soon. Certainly not on the back of this.

> Either way, it's equally a reality that it's better to be a minority in the west than in India. That is a damming indictment of Indian governments past and present, as well as Indian society. Ask theAfricans. Or the Indian Chinese. Till that reality of Indian society is addressed, these types of "majority rules" decisions will always be suspect. Even posters here don't understand that functioning democracy =/= tyranny of the majority.

> Should this have been done before? Perhaps. The point is, it wasn't. To do it during the heightened communal tension of the age of Hindu nationalism is provocative bordering on reckless. I hope it doesn't go West Bank, but the ingredients are all there. Mutual distrust; an outgunned native population; gradual encroachment by hostile newcomers pushing people out... this does not strike me as a recipe for success. The chap above who wants to buy a second house there is oblivious to how he's upending locals lives (ergo greed). Do you think he, or they, will make good neighbours? Time to get into the fence exporting business I guess.

> The big problem with this approach is that it doesn't address the security issue. Let's game this out. You get more newcomers, combined with an upsurge in Kashmiri nationalism on both sides of the border. Throw an opportunist and antagonistic military state into the mix. Where does this go? Non locals/businesses become obvious targets. They get more protection. Cue segregation West Bank style. More military. More tension. More collateral. More anger. Rinse. Repeat. Likelihood of integration? Low. After all, this isn't like Andhra, which was in a relatively stable situation. This is disputed, conflict-ridden territory.

> I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but the fact that it's plausible, let alone likely, is cause for concern. Its time to pay attention to Mufti and Abdullah and the people who voted for them. Most of them feel disenfranchised now. These are people who were largely positive towards India, whatever their reservations. They're disappearing now. Difficult to govern without the consent of the governed. Unless you replace them over time, as is happening north of the border. I wouldn't put that past this lot, given their track record with minorities. Hence my acidic comments about ethnic cleansing. That these things are even remotely plausible reveals a pretty dire state of affairs.

> There is a way to integrate Kashmir. Not convinced that this is it. Hope I'm wrong, if for the sake of the blood I suspect will be shed because of this sooner or later.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:04 am

The Anjuman Muslim association of Ladakh welcomes the creation of Union Territory for Ladakh/Leh. Will this make those who participated in ethnic cleansing in Canada happy?

Resolution photo

Image
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:30 am

blrsea wrote:
The Anjuman Muslim association of Ladakh welcomes the creation of Union Territory for Ladakh/Leh. Will this make those who participated in ethnic cleansing in Canada happy?

Resolution photo

Image


That's nice. Perhaps time to let all Kashmiris/Ladakhis etc vote on it. If this group is representative of Kashmiri sentiment, the revocation should win handily. Then you can pull out the army, let tourists back in, let life resume as normal, and go back to calling out racism within India.

Until then, I haven't a clue who they are or what they represent.

Bit weird that he wants Ladakh to be declared a tribal area. Wouldn't that afford its own set of protections and undo the "benefits" of revoking 370?
Last edited by ElPistolero on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
maint123
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:32 am

ElPistolero wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
BarfBag wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
And there it is. After all that nonsense about the issue being about economics and equality and rights for Indians, you shy away from implementing the same measures in other states in India.

Who is 'you' in this context ? Me ? I'm a private individual, not Modi himself. The BJP ? You understand how politics and party manifestos work ? They contain a small collection of goals that the party attempts to ideally accomplish. They get elected, giving them a mandate, within which they attempt to implement their goals.

In reality, at the best of times, parties barely give lip service to their own manifestos. We have a situation here where a party actually got something that's been on its manifesto for decades, done at the very first opportunity when they had the comprehensive legislative and executive power to accomplish it (they did not have sufficient strength in RS between 2014-19).

Unrealistic arguments that demand "shame! why haven't they done every last thing already ?" sound great as a response, but have you ever attempted to run a business or even been a professional manager by attempting to do everything and then running down those who get tasks done by berating them for not simultaneously getting everything else done too ? Must be quite a great way to manage business, that.


Oh, you know. Anyone who pretends that this is about equality and economic development and blah blah when it's really just about petty vindictiveness driven by an inferiority complex traceable to wrongs committed hundreds of years ago.

"You" all know who "you" are.

Elpistolero, we are getting a pretty good idea who you are from your comments.
Muslims like you feel it's your god given right to settle anywhere in the world but in Muslim majority areas, the infidel should never be allowed to settle, whether its your idol Pakistan or the middle Eastern countries. The double standard that people of your tribe practice is mind-boggling.
And no one for a moment thinks that you are advocating rights of kashmiris, but only of Muslim kashmiris. The rest of the 35 % (Budhists, Hindus, sikh, shias) like the Hindu kashmiris who had to leave their centuries old houses in kashmir due to terrorism and are in slums in jammu and Delhi in kashmir are just insects for you.
Triple talak gone.
370 gone.
Next is uniform code- no more 4 wives for you.
Time for you to reach the 21st century.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:51 am

maint123 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
BarfBag wrote:
Who is 'you' in this context ? Me ? I'm a private individual, not Modi himself. The BJP ? You understand how politics and party manifestos work ? They contain a small collection of goals that the party attempts to ideally accomplish. They get elected, giving them a mandate, within which they attempt to implement their goals.

In reality, at the best of times, parties barely give lip service to their own manifestos. We have a situation here where a party actually got something that's been on its manifesto for decades, done at the very first opportunity when they had the comprehensive legislative and executive power to accomplish it (they did not have sufficient strength in RS between 2014-19).

Unrealistic arguments that demand "shame! why haven't they done every last thing already ?" sound great as a response, but have you ever attempted to run a business or even been a professional manager by attempting to do everything and then running down those who get tasks done by berating them for not simultaneously getting everything else done too ? Must be quite a great way to manage business, that.


Oh, you know. Anyone who pretends that this is about equality and economic development and blah blah when it's really just about petty vindictiveness driven by an inferiority complex traceable to wrongs committed hundreds of years ago.

"You" all know who "you" are.

Elpistolero, we are getting a pretty good idea who you are from your comments.
Muslims like you feel it's your god given right to settle anywhere in the world but in Muslim majority areas, the infidel should never be allowed to settle, whether its your idol Pakistan or the middle Eastern countries. The double standard that people of your tribe practice is mind-boggling.
And no one for a moment thinks that you are advocating rights of kashmiris, but only of Muslim kashmiris. The rest of the 35 % (Budhists, Hindus, sikh, shias) like the Hindu kashmiris who had to leave their centuries old houses in kashmir due to terrorism and are in slums in jammu and Delhi in kashmir are just insects for you.
Triple talak gone.
370 gone.
Next is uniform code- no more 4 wives for you.
Time for you to reach the 21st century.


Ha - do you? Either you didn't read my posts or your English comprehension ... never mind - no point making fun of vernacular schools.

Re-read my posts. I'm a Hindu. My family even built its own temple lol.

I just come from that humanist strand of Hinduism that doesn't think that the best way of fending off the more aggressive elements from monotheistic/exclusivist abrahamic religions is by becoming like them. I fundamentally don't believe in "other"ing and dehumanizing others. Or in stereotyping and collective punishment for sins from centuries ago.

Mostly because I'm Hindu. Let me guess. I'm now the religious version of a race traitor. It gets worse, mind. I enjoy bacon cheese burgers. Porky beefy deliciousness. In my defence, the cows aren't Indian.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:11 am

One needs to remember that the liberal party in Canada is supporting lot of Khalistanis who are trying to ressurect terrorism in Punjab. They got mighty pissed when Punjab CM refused to meet their defence minister and PM (although he met the PM) due to khalistanis in their delegation. Someone claiming to be from Punjab whose parents migrated to Canada in 80s does raise red flags, given that khalistanis there were involved in Air India Kanisha crash, and are still trying to push idea of khalistan. Many are smarting from the reception Trudeau got when in India. So when seen from that prism, the comments do make sense. We just need to pierce through the facade of "humanist/atheist" etc. That explains brushing out every other argument without valid facts and just opposing for sake of opposing based on "feelings/emotions/prediction" etc.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:21 am

blrsea wrote:
One needs to remember that the liberal party in Canada is supporting lot of Khalistanis who are trying to ressurect terrorism in Punjab. They got mighty pissed when Punjab CM refused to meet their defence minister and PM (although he met the PM) due to khalistanis in their delegation. Someone claiming to be from Punjab whose parents migrated to Canada in 80s does raise red flags, given that khalistanis there were involved in Air India Kanisha crash, and are still trying to push idea of khalistan. Many are smarting from the reception Trudeau got when in India. So when seen from that prism, the comments do make sense. We just need to pierce through the facade of "humanist/atheist" etc. That explains brushing out every other argument without valid facts and just opposing for sake of opposing based on "feelings/emotions/prediction" etc.


Oh okay. We'll keep that in mind when we next discuss Khalistan. Is that still a thing?

On the issue of 370, care to tell us why you just endorsed a letter calling for Ladakh to be designated a tribal area? I'm curious about what that entails.

Also, it sounds like you object to humanism. Which part do you object to?
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:28 am

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
One needs to remember that the liberal party in Canada is supporting lot of Khalistanis who are trying to ressurect terrorism in Punjab. They got mighty pissed when Punjab CM refused to meet their defence minister and PM (although he met the PM) due to khalistanis in their delegation. Someone claiming to be from Punjab whose parents migrated to Canada in 80s does raise red flags, given that khalistanis there were involved in Air India Kanisha crash, and are still trying to push idea of khalistan. Many are smarting from the reception Trudeau got when in India. So when seen from that prism, the comments do make sense. We just need to pierce through the facade of "humanist/atheist" etc. That explains brushing out every other argument without valid facts and just opposing for sake of opposing based on "feelings/emotions/prediction" etc.


Oh okay. We'll keep that in mind when we next discuss Khalistan.

On the issue of 370, care to tell us why you just endorsed a letter calling for Ladakh to be designated a tribal area? I'm curious about what that entails.

Also, it sounds like you object to humanism. Which part do you object to?


I posted that letter to show that even muslims welcome creation of Ladakh Union Territory (which wouldn't have been possible without repealing Art 370). Ladakh is a huge area and I don't think such large areas will be declared tribal. Pockets of areas have been declared tribal before in many states.

I don't object to humanism, only using that as a facade to further their arguments. You know like the US conservatives who oppose homosexuals but are themselves gay? Those liberals who want freedom of speech to everyone but don't tolerate anyone questioning them?

It is hard to find genuine humanists who fact based and balanced in their views want genuinely every person to be treated fairly, instead heaving tilting one side or the other based on their biases & claiming to be humanists.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1754
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:37 am

blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
One needs to remember that the liberal party in Canada is supporting lot of Khalistanis who are trying to ressurect terrorism in Punjab. They got mighty pissed when Punjab CM refused to meet their defence minister and PM (although he met the PM) due to khalistanis in their delegation. Someone claiming to be from Punjab whose parents migrated to Canada in 80s does raise red flags, given that khalistanis there were involved in Air India Kanisha crash, and are still trying to push idea of khalistan. Many are smarting from the reception Trudeau got when in India. So when seen from that prism, the comments do make sense. We just need to pierce through the facade of "humanist/atheist" etc. That explains brushing out every other argument without valid facts and just opposing for sake of opposing based on "feelings/emotions/prediction" etc.


Oh okay. We'll keep that in mind when we next discuss Khalistan.

On the issue of 370, care to tell us why you just endorsed a letter calling for Ladakh to be designated a tribal area? I'm curious about what that entails.

Also, it sounds like you object to humanism. Which part do you object to?


I posted that letter to show that even muslims welcome creation of Ladakh Union Territory (which wouldn't have been possible without repealing Art 370). Ladakh is a huge area and I don't think such large areas will be declared tribal. Pockets of areas have been declared tribal before in many states.

I don't object to humanism, only using that as a facade to further their arguments. You know like the US conservatives who oppose homosexuals but are themselves gay? Those liberals who want freedom of speech to everyone but don't tolerate anyone questioning them?

It is hard to find genuine humanists who fact based and balanced in their views want genuinely every person to be treated fairly, instead heaving tilting one side or the other based on their biases & claiming to be humanists.


Except that they're welcoming it in the hope of turning Ladakh into a tribal area, presumably because that brings some protections back. They're not welcoming it it on its own merits.

Based on your non- answer. I get the feeling that you didn't actually read past the first few lines. It doesn't actually say what you thought it said, does it? Haha.

Yeah, I don't know what you mean about Republican conservatives and liberals and Humanism (the former tend to be pretty dogmatic Christians - the antithesis of humanism), but whatever floats your boat. When you get around to learning more (well, anything) about Humanism, we can discuss it in detail.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:25 am

ElPistolero wrote:
blrsea wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Oh okay. We'll keep that in mind when we next discuss Khalistan.

On the issue of 370, care to tell us why you just endorsed a letter calling for Ladakh to be designated a tribal area? I'm curious about what that entails.

Also, it sounds like you object to humanism. Which part do you object to?


I posted that letter to show that even muslims welcome creation of Ladakh Union Territory (which wouldn't have been possible without repealing Art 370). Ladakh is a huge area and I don't think such large areas will be declared tribal. Pockets of areas have been declared tribal before in many states.

I don't object to humanism, only using that as a facade to further their arguments. You know like the US conservatives who oppose homosexuals but are themselves gay? Those liberals who want freedom of speech to everyone but don't tolerate anyone questioning them?

It is hard to find genuine humanists who fact based and balanced in their views want genuinely every person to be treated fairly, instead heaving tilting one side or the other based on their biases & claiming to be humanists.


Except that they're welcoming it in the hope of turning Ladakh into a tribal area, presumably because that brings some protections back. They're not welcoming it it on its own merits.

Based on your non- answer. I get the feeling that you didn't actually read past the first few lines. It doesn't actually say what you thought it said, does it? Haha.

Yeah, I don't know what you mean about Republican conservatives and liberals and Humanism (the former tend to be pretty dogmatic Christians - the antithesis of humanism), but whatever floats your boat. When you get around to learning more (well, anything) about Humanism, we can discuss it in detail.


No where in that letter are they basing their welcome on the area getting tribal area. They have welcomed it twice in the letter, at the every end too. But jaundiced eyes and all, so thats par for the course.

I have read about Humanism to understand that whatever you are spouting doesn't relate to humanism in any way. Its like Trump claiming he is liberal. Just saying it doesn't make one liberal, their actions do. Hope you now understood my references to repulbicans and liberals, and you claiming to be a humanist. You can claim whatever you want to be, doesn't mean people take you on your claims.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1937
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Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:45 am

PM Khan is actually telegraphing what he's planning to do:

Imran Khan predicts rise in suicide bombing in Kashmir as Pakistan's army issues dire warning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... g-kashmir/
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Jetty
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Indian Constitution - Proposal to revoke Article 370 - J&K to no longer have special status

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:12 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
PM Khan is actually telegraphing what he's planning to do:

Imran Khan predicts rise in suicide bombing in Kashmir as Pakistan's army issues dire warning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... g-kashmir/

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