c933103
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South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:14 am

https://globalnews.ca/news/5727571/kore ... r-economy/
According to Moon's interpretation, the current Japan superiority in economy over South Korea is because of its size. As such, he believe that Korea can win the war against Japan by cooperating with North Korea, as the size of this new Korean "peace economy" created by collaboration of both Korea can match the size of Japanese economy.
Currently, South Korea is still bounded by international sanction against North Korea, such that it is now impossible for such enhanced inter-Korea trade relationship to become reality for now. The best thing that the Korean government wanted was of course reaching a denuclearization deal with North Korea but it doesn't look like that would be easy to happen in the current situation. What are the chance for South Korea to bypass international sanction and cooperate with North Korea, and what could be the consequences for that?
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TWA772LR
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:45 am

I agree with the quoted analyst that says this is a sign that Seoul is running out of options. It's especially huge that they are going to stop sharing intelligence info with Tokyo. Kim seems to be gaining the upper hand on the peninsula.

I think it's baffling that the South still hasn't gotten over the war and Japanese occupation. I've only spent about 36 hours of my life in Korea but a 3 minute video on the train from Hongik to ICN about some islands that are semi disputed between the South and Japan still referred to the "Japanese imperialists" as laying claim to the islands, and this was in 2017! It would be bad if a mutual disdain of the Japanese is what leads to Korean peace and even unification.
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VSMUT
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:36 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I agree with the quoted analyst that says this is a sign that Seoul is running out of options. It's especially huge that they are going to stop sharing intelligence info with Tokyo. Kim seems to be gaining the upper hand on the peninsula.

I think it's baffling that the South still hasn't gotten over the war and Japanese occupation. I've only spent about 36 hours of my life in Korea but a 3 minute video on the train from Hongik to ICN about some islands that are semi disputed between the South and Japan still referred to the "Japanese imperialists" as laying claim to the islands, and this was in 2017! It would be bad if a mutual disdain of the Japanese is what leads to Korean peace and even unification.


That's what you get for not punishing possibly the worst aggressor of WWII. What Japan did during the war was arguable worse than the Germans, with estimates of over 20 million civilians killed, often in far more barbarous ways. Add to that the victims of the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1905 to 1945, where Koreans were second-rate citizens in their own country.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:58 pm

c933103 wrote:
According to Moon's interpretation, the current Japan superiority in economy over South Korea is because of its size. As such, he believe that Korea can win the war against Japan by cooperating with North Korea, as the size of this new Korean "peace economy" created by collaboration of both Korea can match the size of Japanese economy.

Whatever he is smoking, it must be really string stuff. You don't win a race (whatever is that supposed to mean in this case) by shooting yourself in the foot.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I think it's baffling that the South still hasn't gotten over the war and Japanese occupation. I've only spent about 36 hours of my life in Korea but a 3 minute video on the train from Hongik to ICN about some islands that are semi disputed between the South and Japan still referred to the "Japanese imperialists" as laying claim to the islands, and this was in 2017! It would be bad if a mutual disdain of the Japanese is what leads to Korean peace and even unification.


It's all about nationalism. Ethnic (South) Koreans in general are also VERY united (as are the ethnic Japanese), which means their dispute will never be solved as neither side is going to back off.

VSMUT wrote:
That's what you get for not punishing possibly the worst aggressor of WWII. What Japan did during the war was arguable worse than the Germans, with estimates of over 20 million civilians killed, often in far more barbarous ways. Add to that the victims of the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1905 to 1945, where Koreans were second-rate citizens in their own country.


The Koreans' anger are warranted, but what punishment should Japan face? All ethnic Japanese commiting seppuku and let the ethnic Koreans take over Japan?
 
VSMUT
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:24 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
The Koreans' anger are warranted, but what punishment should Japan face? All ethnic Japanese commiting seppuku and let the ethnic Koreans take over Japan?


By now it is too late. The punishment should have been administered in 1945. Now the cat is out of the bag.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:51 pm

VSMUT wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
The Koreans' anger are warranted, but what punishment should Japan face? All ethnic Japanese commiting seppuku and let the ethnic Koreans take over Japan?


By now it is too late. The punishment should have been administered in 1945. Now the cat is out of the bag.


It’s never too late for Japanese politicians to take responsibility with a formal accounting of wrongdoing instead of bleating the nationalist trope of ‘stop complaining, we already paid reparations.’ Young Koreans I know don’t care so much but the older generation would really appreciate it.
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seat64k
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
I think it's baffling that the South still hasn't gotten over the war and Japanese occupation.


It's not baffling. Korea (and China) has spent decades brewing a toxic multi-generational cocktail of nationalism and resentment.

VSMUT wrote:
That's what you get for not punishing possibly the worst aggressor of WWII. What Japan did during the war was arguable worse than the Germans, with estimates of over 20 million civilians killed, often in far more barbarous ways. Add to that the victims of the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1905 to 1945, where Koreans were second-rate citizens in their own country.


No question. The Nanjing Massacre is the most famous but definitely not an isolated incident. However, Hong Kong and Taiwan was not spared, but the sentiment towards Japan couldn't be more different. The difference is, they haven't spent 74 years obsessing over it. And on the other hand, we have several generations of Japanese who know precious little about the actions of Japanese soldiers. I very much doubt there'd be support for an apology.

L410Turbolet wrote:
Whatever he is smoking, it must be really string stuff. You don't win a race (whatever is that supposed to mean in this case) by shooting yourself in the foot.


Let's imagine Japan formally apologises tomorrow. An official, sincere and heart-felt apology. I don't imagine they can pay the kind of reparations that would make a meaningful impact to two fairly strong economies, but lets imagine they do make a meaningful payment to surviving victims or the families of those who perished. I don't, for one second, believe that that would resolve anything. You have three generations of people whose identities are wrapped up in being the victims of Japanese aggression. And, at least for the last two generations, those are people who have not suffered one bit. As we see elsewhere in the world, the old generation - the ones who felt the impact - are always the ones who are ready to forgive and to move on. The younger generation are always the ones complaining bitterly, and using the hatred for personal gain.

Not that I'm trying to give Japan a free pass. I think Japan *should* apologise. I just don't think it would do a lot of good. People peddling in since-of-our-fathers rhetoric does long term, irreparable harm to all involved.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It’s never too late for Japanese politicians to take responsibility with a formal accounting of wrongdoing instead of bleating the nationalist trope of ‘stop complaining, we already paid reparations.’ Young Koreans I know don’t care so much but the older generation would really appreciate it.


Sigh...except when any Japanese politicians (and there are probably a few) even mentioned anything remotely close to an apology (or just push for "Japan Korea Friendship"), it's basically the end of their political career. Abe as the PM, with his heavy nationalistic rhetoric, is certainly not going to take responsibilities.

Oh well, between China and Korea and Japan, it'll always be complicated.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:07 am

seat64k wrote:
No question. The Nanjing Massacre is the most famous but definitely not an isolated incident. However, Hong Kong and Taiwan was not spared, but the sentiment towards Japan couldn't be more different. The difference is, they haven't spent 74 years obsessing over it. And on the other hand, we have several generations of Japanese who know precious little about the actions of Japanese soldiers. I very much doubt there'd be support for an apology.


Well, for HK and Taiwan, there's also the fact that many of the residents in both places aren't exactly in either HK or Taiwan during WWII. To them, fleeing the CCP was definitely more memorable than the Japanese brutality (and there's no questions about Japanese brutality in HK). Hack, things like Diaoyutai (Senkaku Islands) dispute is nowhere near mainstream concerns in HK or Taiwan, as the main concern nowaday remain CCP.

As for Japan - I personally wonder who would be the supporters (Abe aside) of Article 9 (The pacifist clause in Japan's Constitution) amendment. The people that want to "restore Japan's glory"? (So that include Abe along Ishin no Kai and of course, that old fart ex-Tokyo governor Ishihara?). AFAIK the younger generation are indifferent about politics in general anyway (I can be totally wrong, though), unless you're talking about those ultra-nationalistic netizens of 2ch (aka the board that "inspired" 4chan and later, its extremely toxic cousin 8chan) that are extremely anti-Korean (mainly) and anti-Chinese (to lesser extent than the former)?
 
c933103
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:22 am

seat64k wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Whatever he is smoking, it must be really string stuff. You don't win a race (whatever is that supposed to mean in this case) by shooting yourself in the foot.


Let's imagine Japan formally apologises tomorrow. An official, sincere and heart-felt apology. I don't imagine they can pay the kind of reparations that would make a meaningful impact to two fairly strong economies, but lets imagine they do make a meaningful payment to surviving victims or the families of those who perished. I don't, for one second, believe that that would resolve anything. You have three generations of people whose identities are wrapped up in being the victims of Japanese aggression. And, at least for the last two generations, those are people who have not suffered one bit. As we see elsewhere in the world, the old generation - the ones who felt the impact - are always the ones who are ready to forgive and to move on. The younger generation are always the ones complaining bitterly, and using the hatred for personal gain.

Not that I'm trying to give Japan a free pass. I think Japan *should* apologise. I just don't think it would do a lot of good. People peddling in since-of-our-fathers rhetoric does long term, irreparable harm to all involved.

I think what Korea and China want to see are actions with consequences on Japan itself. For example, stop claiming all disputed territory, stop building up the SDF, stop using textbooks that talk about positive thing Japan have done from Meiji era to WWII without associating them with what they did in China and Korea in the mean time, and so as any public speech made by public figures, stop criticizing Chinese government on humanity and trade issues, stop keeping its strong stance again North Korea over the problem of Japanese citizens being kidnapped and instead help contribute to Korean unification, stop racism against Korean in the country, stop printing media that paint WWII Japan as anything more than evil, stop focusing on itself when reviewing tragedy caused by Japan in WWII and focus on tragedy it caused in other countries, stop competing against China/Korea in different field based on fruit gained from WWII, so on so forth.
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johns624
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
stop building up the SDF.
Yeah, China would really like that. Neuter the only East Asian country that can stand up to and counterbalance Chinese imperialism.
 
c933103
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
stop building up the SDF.
Yeah, China would really like that. Neuter the only East Asian country that can stand up to and counterbalance Chinese imperialism.

Yeah, that's the idea. Countering the growing influence of China is being seen as a sign of "Japanese WWII Imperialism still haven't died yet and Japan should reflect and correct their course.".
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ArchGuy1
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 pm

Best solution would be for a Korean Reunification along the lines of the German Reunification. This could bring much needed prosperity to North Korea.
 
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Aesma
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Re: South Korea president Moon suggest winning the trade war with Japan by creating "peace economy" with North Korea

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:44 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to Moon's interpretation, the current Japan superiority in economy over South Korea is because of its size. As such, he believe that Korea can win the war against Japan by cooperating with North Korea, as the size of this new Korean "peace economy" created by collaboration of both Korea can match the size of Japanese economy.

Whatever he is smoking, it must be really string stuff. You don't win a race (whatever is that supposed to mean in this case) by shooting yourself in the foot.


Germany using the former DDR and now Eastern European countries as a source of cheap labor to install its factories has worked quite well, don't you think ?

As for Japan and the war, just look at what has happened and is still being done in Germany over what it did, it's very different from Japan. Some dumb people are still bringing up nazism (Brexiters anyone ?) but for the most part all is forgotten, German people are welcome in France, we can learn German at school, etc.
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