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trpmb6
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:15 pm

Tired of the word "assault" being used to describe semi-automatic weapons.

It's not the correct legal language to be using. Assault weapons are already banned. The language has a distinct legal definition already.

Now if you want to classify the typical AR-15 as an assault weapon you will have to come up with some pretty specific attributes of what makes it that. Because fact is, many other weapons for hunting use, etc, fall in the same category.

My semi-automatic 30-06 is far more powerful than your typical .223 (5.56) AR-15 (which I also own) but I guarantee if I put the two in front of a lay person they would think the AR-15 was somehow more dangerous. Simply because my 30-06 has a wooden stoxk and looks like a hunting rifle but my AR-15 is scary black matte.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:19 pm

extender wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
extender wrote:
... More laws will not change anything.


The rest of the civilised world disagrees with you, and has proof.


Really, explain how that works in Chicago and Baltimore? Proof, you say? I call. Show the proof.


I said the rest of the world, where entire countries have the same laws nationwide. You cannot implement restrictions / changes in one state and expect that to fix a problem.

What else do you suggest is the fix then? Because it isn't video games. Apparently it's because the US has a lot of mental health issues. What is it that drives so many Americans to have breakdowns or mental health issues? Don't you spend enough money on healthcare? It apparently isn't white supremecy either.

So what do you do, nothing?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:31 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
extender wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

The rest of the civilised world disagrees with you, and has proof.


Really, explain how that works in Chicago and Baltimore? Proof, you say? I call. Show the proof.


I said the rest of the world, where entire countries have the same laws nationwide. You cannot implement restrictions / changes in one state and expect that to fix a problem.

What else do you suggest is the fix then? Because it isn't video games. Apparently it's because the US has a lot of mental health issues. What is it that drives so many Americans to have breakdowns or mental health issues? Don't you spend enough money on healthcare? It apparently isn't white supremecy either.

So what do you do, nothing?


I would be interested in some data on how other countries handle mentally ill persons. We do not institutionalize mentally ill patients here in the US (anymore). It's largely handled within the familial unit and their doctors. For better or worse, there is little accountability. Many many people likely go without treatment - some with no ill-effect - others potentially hurt themselves or others.
 
extender
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:31 pm

Reinhardt wrote:

I said the rest of the world, where entire countries have the same laws nationwide. You cannot implement restrictions / changes in one state and expect that to fix a problem.

What else do you suggest is the fix then? Because it isn't video games. Apparently it's because the US has a lot of mental health issues. What is it that drives so many Americans to have breakdowns or mental health issues? Don't you spend enough money on healthcare? It apparently isn't white supremecy either.

So what do you do, nothing?


You said you had proof. Where is it?
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:35 pm

extender wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

I said the rest of the world, where entire countries have the same laws nationwide. You cannot implement restrictions / changes in one state and expect that to fix a problem.

What else do you suggest is the fix then? Because it isn't video games. Apparently it's because the US has a lot of mental health issues. What is it that drives so many Americans to have breakdowns or mental health issues? Don't you spend enough money on healthcare? It apparently isn't white supremecy either.

So what do you do, nothing?


You said you had proof. Where is it?


It's in the graph that was shown in page 1 of this thread. It's in every single country by country comparison on gun deaths.

In every other country there are huge limitations on who can own a gun and what type of gun they can own. There are detailed backgrounds checks, requirements that the police visit your house and check your gun is locked up correct, re-training etc. Limitations on ammunition, limitations on magazine sizes.

The UK had a handgun massacre in Dunblaine. So we banned handguns = hardly any deaths by guns again. Yes we have knifecrime issues and yes organised crime gangs have illegal guns, but they generally shoot each other not the populace. Knifecrime is linked to drugs, gangs, lack of opporunity of young people due to massive govenment cuts to programs and limited to a few inner city areas.

This is why every other country has less gun deaths than the US.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:43 pm

trpmb6 wrote:

I would be interested in some data on how other countries handle mentally ill persons. We do not institutionalize mentally ill patients here in the US (anymore). It's largely handled within the familial unit and their doctors. For better or worse, there is little accountability. Many many people likely go without treatment - some with no ill-effect - others potentially hurt themselves or others.


It entirely depends on exactly what mental health issues they have. In the UK healthcare is of course covered by the NHS so most have access. Doctors work for the NHS so there is accountability.

Of course if they are that ill or pose a risk to themselves or public at large there are dedicated hospitals to take care of them.
 
extender
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:49 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
It's in the graph that was shown in page 1 of this thread. It's in every single country by country comparison on gun deaths.


You wrote that you had proof that more laws made the populace safer. Where is it? The graph does not support your statement.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:52 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Tired of the word "assault" being used to describe semi-automatic weapons.

It's not the correct legal language to be using.

Curious, what else are semi-automatic weapons used for? Not hunting, and generally not for home defense unless you are expecting a coordinated attack by multiple parties.

Military's around the world utilize semi-automatic weapons as they are the most effective in battling and killing the highest number of enemy combatants. Yes they can switch to full-auto but it is generally not advised due to the aim then fire needs of a military.

For personal defense, hand guns are most effective. For home defense nothing beats a shotgun (Mossberg 88 is a decent inexpensive one). And for hunting a rifle, not a semi-auto, is best.

So why wouldn't "assault" be connected with semi-auto weapons. I personally think that just not including "full-auto" at purchase of a semi-auto is a loophole that has been exploited to sell them to the public. Of course this is just my opinion, but as I do support the right to own and use firearms, I have put thought into why I hold this view.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:55 pm

extender wrote:
You wrote that you had proof that more laws made the populace safer. Where is it? The graph does not support your statement.

So is it your contention that laws do not make a populace safer? Driving laws? Banking laws? Sentencing laws? Drug laws?

I don't think the point is being made that "more" is the issue. It is that whatever is in place is effective.

It is enforcement of and commonality across regions that makes for effective laws. Perhaps that is what you are after?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:58 pm

extender wrote:
How would freedom of the press from 1788 work out today?


If one cannot answer the kind of questions that a court naturally would on this issue, how can any further claims from your position be taken seriously?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:01 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Assault weapons are - and were meant to be - weapons of war. Just as we ban machine guns, gattling guns, and howitzers - to name a few - we have every right to include assault rifles in that list.

The histrionics of the gun fanatics aside, it is a policy that is supported by an overwhelming majority of the American people - and what is more "American"than following the will of the people?


Yes, assault rifles are weapons of war and currently they aren’t available on the market without paying a tax to Uncle Sam. Maybe you meant modern sporting rifles? What you fail to comprehend with that logic is that the 2nd amendment was designed to ensure the local population could defend themselves against an invading force...hence why weapons of war are guaranteed to the public by the Constitution.


An AR15 isn't a modern sporting rifle, it's one rung below an assault rifle, nobody needs a semi auto assault style rifle for any kind of hunting I can think of.
 
extender
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
Curious, what else are semi-automatic weapons used for? Not hunting, and generally not for home defense unless you are expecting a coordinated attack by multiple parties.


Yes, they are used for hunting. Yes, they are used for home defense.

Tugger wrote:
Military's around the world utilize semi-automatic weapons as they are the most effective in battling and killing the highest number of enemy combatants. Yes they can switch to full-auto but it is generally not advised due to the aim then fire needs of a military.


Wrong, most military rifles are automatic.

Tugger wrote:
For personal defense, hand guns are most effective. For home defense nothing beats a shotgun (Mossberg 88 is a decent inexpensive one).


You just contradicted yourself.

Tugger wrote:
So why wouldn't "assault" be connected with semi-auto weapons. I personally think that just not including "full-auto" at purchase of a semi-auto is a loophole that has been exploited to sell them to the public. Of course this is just my opinion, but as I do support the right to own and use firearms, I have put thought into why I hold this view.


Because that is where the term comes from. Assault rifle, intermediate length cartridge capable of automatic fire. That is why most people have no clue. You're entitled to your opinions and your feelings, but they are not facts.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:10 pm

extender wrote:
You wrote that you had proof that more laws made the populace safer. Where is it? The graph does not support your statement.


Scotland, post Dunblaine after 1996:

Image

In Scotland, handgun offences fell by almost 80% in the five years after Dunblane.


After the Dunblane massacre, handgun control became highly political. Handgun ownership was increasing in the 1990s and sports shooting, the only legitimate reason for owning a handgun, was a fast growing sport. Yet even members of the elite country-sports lobby were troubled by newcomers, keen on “combat style” shooting, entering the sport.

These tensions opened up after Dunblane. The government commissioned Lord Cullen run an inquiry into the incident. He recommended cautious compromises (storing firearms in secure armouries or police stations). These were initially rejected as “unworkable” by shooters, but they were ultimately overwhelmed by the strength of public feeling.

Arguing that Britain’s developing gun culture was responsible for the tragedy of Dunblane, the Snowdrop campaign presented a 750,000 signature petition to the UK parliament.

The government of the time, under the premiership of John Major, was split, reluctant to confront pro-gun Tory backbenchers, although Tony Blair’s New Labour was waiting in the wings, ready to seize the issue. The then home secretary Michael Howard initially wanted to accept Cullen’s compromise. But the Scottish secretary, Michael Forsythe, MP for Dunblane’s neighbouring constituency of Stirling, with one of the smallest parliamentary majorities, had made commitments to bereaved family members. Eventually the prime minister supported Forsythe and backed the handgun control proposals.

The Conservative government legislated to ban higher calibre handguns in 1997. After the New Labour government swept to power that May, it added .22 calibre handguns to the prohibited list.

By March 1999, the National Audit Office reported to parliament that 165,353 licensed handguns and 700 tonnes of ammunition, had been surrendered, involving an estimated compensation cost of £95m.



In England & Wales post Dunblaine Gun Crime actually went up, quite significantly for the first few years after the bans in 1997. But this was because crimes with imitation guns massively increased and were for the first time included in gun crime statistics.

As any criminologists would stress, passing a law does not in itself prevent crime. Rather more was happening, for the 1990s saw the development of a wholly new gun market in the UK comprising non-firing “realistic imitation” firearms (hitherto largely unknown in the UK), BB guns, and high-powered air weapons.

There was a ready demand for many of these “junk guns” in Britain’s emerging gang cultures, where firearm carrying was culturally endorsed. Researchers found that a large proportion of “armed robberies” were carried out by offenders with imitation or non-functioning firearms. The rise in handgun crime had nothing to do with the handgun ban and everything to do with the changing patterns of supply and demand in the illegal firearms market.


So if you ban or strongly curtail the legality of guns, you also have to take care of the illegal and immitation side as well.


Yes the US has an entirely different culture. But you have options.

I would also argue that the graph on page 1 clearly shows countries with lower levels of gun crime than the US. Total, and per head of population. If there is less gun crime = a more safe population. Anything else is just symantecs.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:18 pm

Tugger wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Tired of the word "assault" being used to describe semi-automatic weapons.

It's not the correct legal language to be using.

Curious, what else are semi-automatic weapons used for? Not hunting, and generally not for home defense unless you are expecting a coordinated attack by multiple parties.

Military's around the world utilize semi-automatic weapons as they are the most effective in battling and killing the highest number of enemy combatants. Yes they can switch to full-auto but it is generally not advised due to the aim then fire needs of a military.

For personal defense, hand guns are most effective. For home defense nothing beats a shotgun (Mossberg 88 is a decent inexpensive one). And for hunting a rifle, not a semi-auto, is best.

So why wouldn't "assault" be connected with semi-auto weapons. I personally think that just not including "full-auto" at purchase of a semi-auto is a loophole that has been exploited to sell them to the public. Of course this is just my opinion, but as I do support the right to own and use firearms, I have put thought into why I hold this view.

Tugg


Tugg, I really respect you and your opinions and you are almost always quite factual. But your post proves to me and another poster just above this that even you don't know all the correct terminology. You contradicted yourself in your post. Most hand guns are semi-automatic. Many hunting rifles are semi-automatic. Many shotguns are semi-automatic.

Some people may not realize that I'm legally able to use my .223 AR-15 to hunt deer. I don't. Mainly because it doesn't have the knockdown power of a high powered hunting rifle. The .223 round is small and really meant to inflict injury. It's not really an effective killing machine. The idea being if you injure one enemy combatant, it takes two others to remove that person from the battlefield so you incapacitate (at least temporarily) three combatants at once.

The .223 round does make an effective varmint gun for taking out small game. Such as prairie dogs, opossums, skunks, coyotes and armadillos.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:32 pm

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Curious, what else are semi-automatic weapons used for? Not hunting, and generally not for home defense unless you are expecting a coordinated attack by multiple parties.


Yes, they are used for hunting. Yes, they are used for home defense.


No, they actually aren't. You can make up that they can be used by some people for home defense but every publication that supports firearms notes that in the home semi-auto (and even hunting rifles) are not very good for home defense. I know I won't convince you but I need to dispel the silly comment.

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Military's around the world utilize semi-automatic weapons as they are the most effective in battling and killing the highest number of enemy combatants. Yes they can switch to full-auto but it is generally not advised due to the aim then fire needs of a military.


Wrong, most military rifles are automatic.

.... sigh.... OK sure. Yes full auto is in abundance, however for personal issued weapons, most are semi-auto. Again for the very real reason that bullets are valuable and necessary to be an effective soldier and semi-auto has been PROVEN over and over again to be the most effective in allowing high fire rates while also allowing for targeted shooting delivering bullets that will kill the enemy (versus spraying bullets everywhere). If you actually do not know this then you really do not know much about warfare and combat. But whatever, again, I don't want to convince you just dispel silliness you are posting.

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
For personal defense, hand guns are most effective. For home defense nothing beats a shotgun (Mossberg 88 is a decent inexpensive one).


You just contradicted yourself.

No, I didn't. You are just not comprehending. So to clarify:
Home defense - in the home, short range in general, anyone may need to use against unknown targets in dark and confined spaces etc. Personal defense - can be in the home but is carried personally, can be carried elsewhere discretely and used at range and in situations that my need tighter targeting.

If yuo want to take down an attacker in the street with a shotgun, go for it. If you want to use your handgun in the home go for it. But if you want to use what is best then you need to comprehend what is recommended by everyone else for the situation and why.

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
So why wouldn't "assault" be connected with semi-auto weapons. I personally think that just not including "full-auto" at purchase of a semi-auto is a loophole that has been exploited to sell them to the public. Of course this is just my opinion, but as I do support the right to own and use firearms, I have put thought into why I hold this view.


Because that is where the term comes from. Assault rifle, intermediate length cartridge capable of automatic fire. That is why most people have no clue.

So you agree that semi-auto's are assault weapons? Well, that's something at least.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:45 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Tired of the word "assault" being used to describe semi-automatic weapons.

It's not the correct legal language to be using.

Curious, what else are semi-automatic weapons used for? Not hunting, and generally not for home defense unless you are expecting a coordinated attack by multiple parties.

Military's around the world utilize semi-automatic weapons as they are the most effective in battling and killing the highest number of enemy combatants. Yes they can switch to full-auto but it is generally not advised due to the aim then fire needs of a military.

For personal defense, hand guns are most effective. For home defense nothing beats a shotgun (Mossberg 88 is a decent inexpensive one). And for hunting a rifle, not a semi-auto, is best.

So why wouldn't "assault" be connected with semi-auto weapons. I personally think that just not including "full-auto" at purchase of a semi-auto is a loophole that has been exploited to sell them to the public. Of course this is just my opinion, but as I do support the right to own and use firearms, I have put thought into why I hold this view.

Tugg


Tugg, I really respect you and your opinions and you are almost always quite factual. But your post proves to me and another poster just above this that even you don't know all the correct terminology. You contradicted yourself in your post. Most hand guns are semi-automatic. Many hunting rifles are semi-automatic. Many shotguns are semi-automatic.

Some people may not realize that I'm legally able to use my .223 AR-15 to hunt deer. I don't. Mainly because it doesn't have the knockdown power of a high powered hunting rifle. The .223 round is small and really meant to inflict injury. It's not really an effective killing machine. The idea being if you injure one enemy combatant, it takes two others to remove that person from the battlefield so you incapacitate (at least temporarily) three combatants at once.

The .223 round does make an effective varmint gun for taking out small game. Such as prairie dogs, opossums, skunks, coyotes and armadillos.

Fair dinkum, I should be more precise. It also reinforces why is the term "Assault" is important then. Semi-auto is any limited auto-reloading item, that is true. As you note in your post. The thing is there aren't many well known terms for the burst-fire type guns that are assault weapons. They go full auto, often in three round bursts, then need further input. Many people call them semi-auto for that fact.

So yes, the dictionary definition is one thing, however its general use is another. Perhaps we need to educate everyone and get everyone to use the same wording, however that is generally not how language works. The population misuses words, and you end up with conversational use.

Handgun to rifle to everything in between, you will have to define your terms with the general public you are speaking to each time if you. It is a good "gotcha" on me, as the formal definition is clear for firearms. I will en devour to be more clear for this discussion.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:52 pm

I still think there is a lot to learn. The AR-15 platform is popular because of its ability to greatly modified.

Did you know you can actually have a pistol AR-15? I know because I made one. It's in my safe right now as I write this. There are strict ATF rules that govern such things.

.223 AR-15s are absolutely used for hunting. Ask a group of cattle ranchers. You'll find several who carry them for predator control and prairie dogs.

Here is a little bit of advice to you all. Learn. Talk to the folks who use these tools. But most importantly, learn before you try to lecture someone about why they should or should not be allowed to have it.
 
stratclub
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:29 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The title at least is correct: "BIden SAYS".
Never mind what's he is actually doing....right?

Joe isn't coming for anything except a fresh change of Depends. Wake up Democrats. Orange man bad, Socialism and free stuff for illegal aliens isn't going to carry the day in 2020.

On topic, the narrative should be changed to firearm responsibility instead of gun control. you will notice that Joe's statement is nothing more than a talking point in he is just saying something that might get him some votes. I doubt if he even knows what an assault rifle is.


And what the hell do you think every other politician does, including that Moron you guys worship.

What makes you think the current resident of the White House is a moron? The Democrats MSM that for the last 3 years has torpedoed EVERYTHING DJT has done good or bad and Hillery and her cronies that tried to frame him for colluding with Russia when the whole time they were colluding with Russia? If you believe what CNN and MSNBC has told you, you have been bent over and railed really hard. Most of the MSM are bold faced despicable liars working for the Demo-Morons.

First off, DJT is not a piece of filth politician. He is a concerned citizen that is beyond tired of the corruption in our political system and wants to do something about it. Draining the swamp of these people that could care less about what is good for America and whose agenda is to use their office to screw the American people to get rich. A common tool of the Democrats is to blame others for the crimes they are committing. So I guess you calling the the POTUS a moron is because you are a moron.

Secondly, for the first time in history, we have a President that doesn't owe anybody for getting into office. Special interest and lobbyists? They can just go Eff themselves if their agenda is not good for "We The People."
 
extender
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:32 pm

Tugger wrote:
No, they actually aren't. You can make up that they can be used by some people for home defense but every publication that supports firearms notes that in the home semi-auto (and even hunting rifles) are not very good for home defense. I know I won't convince you but I need to dispel the silly comment.


You are basing your opinion on something you read? Personal experience says otherwise.

Tugger wrote:
.... sigh.... OK sure. Yes full auto is in abundance, however for personal issued weapons, most are semi-auto.


Wrong, again. How many weapons have you been issued? With the exception of sidearms, every other weapon I was issued was select-fire, read, automatic.

Tugger wrote:
Home defense - in the home, short range in general, anyone may need to use against unknown targets in dark and confined spaces etc. Personal defense - can be in the home but is carried personally, can be carried elsewhere discretely and used at range and in situations that my need tighter targeting.


Again, where are you getting this from? Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and you are an SME on the employment of weapons?

Tugger wrote:
If yuo want to take down an attacker in the street with a shotgun, go for it. If you want to use your handgun in the home go for it. But if you want to use what is best then you need to comprehend what is recommended by everyone else for the situation and why.


Different situations have a preferred weapon. Other times, you have to play the cards you are dealt and may have to engage someone at longer than preferred range with a handgun.

Tugger wrote:
So you agree that semi-auto's are assault weapons? Well, that's something at least.


No, semi-automatic rifles, do not meet definition of the term assault rifle. A BAR for hunting fires far more powerful projectiles than any standard battle rifle, but it isn't an assault rifle.
 
WKTaylor
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:01 pm

A few quotes/thoughts on this subject...

In a 'fair fight' the odds suck...never fight fair.

Semi/full-auto weapons with high capacity magazines, change the odds in-in-fight overwhelmingly in-favor-of the aggressor. See quote 1.

'Bad guys' always have the advantage of time-place-surprise-weaponry-tactics-and emotional-control. See quote 1.

Armed-men kill unarmed men-women-children with monotonous regularity. See quote1.
 
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ER757
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:13 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I still think there is a lot to learn. The AR-15 platform is popular because of its ability to greatly modified.

Did you know you can actually have a pistol AR-15? I know because I made one. It's in my safe right now as I write this. There are strict ATF rules that govern such things.

.223 AR-15s are absolutely used for hunting. Ask a group of cattle ranchers. You'll find several who carry them for predator control and prairie dogs.

Here is a little bit of advice to you all. Learn. Talk to the folks who use these tools. But most importantly, learn before you try to lecture someone about why they should or should not be allowed to have it.

I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.
 
Okie
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:24 pm

ER757 wrote:
Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.

Happily or not, you stand corrected, the A stands for Armalite Rifle. The original designer/manufacturer.
They have been manufactured by several different manufacturers since and untold number of modifications.

Okie
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:43 pm

ER757 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still think there is a lot to learn. The AR-15 platform is popular because of its ability to greatly modified.

Did you know you can actually have a pistol AR-15? I know because I made one. It's in my safe right now as I write this. There are strict ATF rules that govern such things.

.223 AR-15s are absolutely used for hunting. Ask a group of cattle ranchers. You'll find several who carry them for predator control and prairie dogs.

Here is a little bit of advice to you all. Learn. Talk to the folks who use these tools. But most importantly, learn before you try to lecture someone about why they should or should not be allowed to have it.

I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.


Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm

It’s as if Biden wants to hand Trump the election.
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:24 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still think there is a lot to learn. The AR-15 platform is popular because of its ability to greatly modified.

Did you know you can actually have a pistol AR-15? I know because I made one. It's in my safe right now as I write this. There are strict ATF rules that govern such things.

.223 AR-15s are absolutely used for hunting. Ask a group of cattle ranchers. You'll find several who carry them for predator control and prairie dogs.

Here is a little bit of advice to you all. Learn. Talk to the folks who use these tools. But most importantly, learn before you try to lecture someone about why they should or should not be allowed to have it.

I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.


Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.

I think your info is great but I question the need to provide this level of detail about your personal ownership of firearms to total strangers on the internet. I think that this is unwise. Many posters on this forum have in other threads advocated for the doxxing and harrassment of those with whom they disagree, with most threats aimed at Trump supporters and Republicans. I think that you should take their threats seriously and provide as little information about yourself as possible. I have no doubt that given the opportunity many of the posters on this particular thread would gladly destroy your life if given the opportunity, and based on the vileness of some of the posters here I would also worry about your physical safety if you were to be doxxed. Providing this kind of info does not educate them, it only provides them excuses to harm you.

Mike Drop
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2621
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:08 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.


Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.

I think your info is great but I question the need to provide this level of detail about your personal ownership of firearms to total strangers on the internet. I think that this is unwise. Many posters on this forum have in other threads advocated for the doxxing and harrassment of those with whom they disagree, with most threats aimed at Trump supporters and Republicans. I think that you should take their threats seriously and provide as little information about yourself as possible. I have no doubt that given the opportunity many of the posters on this particular thread would gladly destroy your life if given the opportunity, and based on the vileness of some of the posters here I would also worry about your physical safety if you were to be doxxed. Providing this kind of info does not educate them, it only provides them excuses to harm you.

Mike Drop


I appreciate what you're saying. I'm not afraid of my identity being revealed. I'm a self-employed engineer. Not like a company could fire me. And for what reason? Being a lawful, educated and safe firearms owner?

I would hope that my respectful demeanor on these forums would dissuade someone from wanting to dox me. If I was so concerned about that I wouldn't participate in social media.

It's also why I choose to not fully participate in certain on going discussions in the other various forums so I do not run afoul of NDAs. The way I see it, one should behave online as if their identity is already known to everyone.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:10 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still think there is a lot to learn. The AR-15 platform is popular because of its ability to greatly modified.

Did you know you can actually have a pistol AR-15? I know because I made one. It's in my safe right now as I write this. There are strict ATF rules that govern such things.

.223 AR-15s are absolutely used for hunting. Ask a group of cattle ranchers. You'll find several who carry them for predator control and prairie dogs.

Here is a little bit of advice to you all. Learn. Talk to the folks who use these tools. But most importantly, learn before you try to lecture someone about why they should or should not be allowed to have it.

I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.


Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.

Thanks for the info - I only know about shotguns (from duck hunting) and the old .22 rifle my Dad taught me to shoot when I was a kid. He was quite the marksman in his day with that thing.
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:45 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.

I think your info is great but I question the need to provide this level of detail about your personal ownership of firearms to total strangers on the internet. I think that this is unwise. Many posters on this forum have in other threads advocated for the doxxing and harrassment of those with whom they disagree, with most threats aimed at Trump supporters and Republicans. I think that you should take their threats seriously and provide as little information about yourself as possible. I have no doubt that given the opportunity many of the posters on this particular thread would gladly destroy your life if given the opportunity, and based on the vileness of some of the posters here I would also worry about your physical safety if you were to be doxxed. Providing this kind of info does not educate them, it only provides them excuses to harm you.

Mike Drop


I appreciate what you're saying. I'm not afraid of my identity being revealed. I'm a self-employed engineer. Not like a company could fire me. And for what reason? Being a lawful, educated and safe firearms owner?

I would hope that my respectful demeanor on these forums would dissuade someone from wanting to dox me. If I was so concerned about that I wouldn't participate in social media.

It's also why I choose to not fully participate in certain on going discussions in the other various forums so I do not run afoul of NDAs. The way I see it, one should behave online as if their identity is already known to everyone.

I think that most people here would agree that you are respectful and thoughtful in your interactions. But that’s not really what this is about. I personally know several people who I consider to be otherwise reasonable, except that if they were to hear about a person who owns certain firearms would feel threatened just by that fact (or at least would say they feel threatened). Some of these people would not hesitate to call the police to report it and say that they feel that the firearm owner is mentally unstable, which would then kick off a police response. Now, I don’t think that all anti gun people would do this and I don’t want to paint any entire group of people in a bad way, but it only takes one self righteous activist to ruin your life. The risk is real, and really, not worth taking with total strangers on an Internet forum were a majority of members disagree with most of your lifestyle and life philosophy.

I’m just sayin...

Mike Drop
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2621
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:04 pm

ER757 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
I know people get really hung up on semantics at times. I have a question and I'm asking you since you usually have well-presented arguments in your posts (even if I don't always agree with your positions, I respect the thought you put into them). So I am thinking I won't get flamed for asking this. Doesn't the "AR" in AR-15 stand for "assault rifle?" I thought it did, but happily stand to be corrected if that's a misconception on my part.


Thanks for asking, and to anyone else who would like to better understand my positions on firearms or terminology, etc, please ask!

As Okie pointed out in the post above this, the A in AR-15 actually stands for Armalite, the company that first developed the platform.

There are many other things I can share.

For instance, did you know the only thing that is serialized on the AR-15 is the "Lower Receiver" which is a relatively small amount of metal but houses the safety and trigger mechanisms and provides the attach points for the stock and upper receiver. Also where the magazine attaches. The upper receiver actually houses the bolt carrier group (BCG) and the barrel. Main reason ATF went that route is because barrels and BCGs are interchangeable. You can quite easily swap one upper receiver out for another one. Less than a minute if you know what you're doing. Serializing the lower receiver follows prior precedents with other firearms that have replaceable parts like the BCG and barrel.

It's my understanding there are about 5 million AR-15 in circulation. I own two. And know the owners of about 15 others. Maybe 20. All very reasonable, firearms educated, individuals. Some ex-military, others engineers or aircraft mechanics.

Thanks for the info - I only know about shotguns (from duck hunting) and the old .22 rifle my Dad taught me to shoot when I was a kid. He was quite the marksman in his day with that thing.


Might be interested to know then that the typical AR-15 shoots a .223 caliber round which isnt much bigger than your typical .22LR round. Difference being the amount of powder behind him. But actual lead size isn't much different.
 
910A
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:33 am

Oh good grief. Assault weapons..Has people forgotten the Congress passed The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, commonly called the federal Assault Weapons Ban in 1994. Or that President George H.W. Bush banned the import of semi automatic rifles in March 1989. How about the seven states that have assault weapon bans in force today.
 
User avatar
fallap
Posts: 976
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:36 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am

extender wrote:
fallap wrote:
Too bad those gunned down in one senseless shooting spree after the other can't have all that freedom you advocate.


Same can be said of the Armenian Genocide.


What does the Armenian Genocide has to do with gun laws?
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:56 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Assault weapons are - and were meant to be - weapons of war. Just as we ban machine guns, gattling guns, and howitzers - to name a few - we have every right to include assault rifles in that list.

The histrionics of the gun fanatics aside, it is a policy that is supported by an overwhelming majority of the American people - and what is more "American"than following the will of the people?


Yes, assault rifles are weapons of war and currently they aren’t available on the market without paying a tax to Uncle Sam. Maybe you meant modern sporting rifles?


In most of the civilized world modern sporting rifles are capacity-limited.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:01 pm

I prefer belt-fed ones, much more entertaining. What does the Armenian Genocide have to do with anything? Hmm, when people have no means to defend themselves, genocide has taken place. The Jews were disarmed, the Armenians were disarmed, the Chinese were disarmed.
 
User avatar
seemyseems
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:42 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:46 am

Good, I agree with Joe Biden here.
seemyseems in ATL
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9376
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:59 am

Reinhardt wrote:
extender wrote:
You wrote that you had proof that more laws made the populace safer. Where is it? The graph does not support your statement.


Scotland, post Dunblaine after 1996:

Image

In Scotland, handgun offences fell by almost 80% in the five years after Dunblane.


After the Dunblane massacre, handgun control became highly political. Handgun ownership was increasing in the 1990s and sports shooting, the only legitimate reason for owning a handgun, was a fast growing sport. Yet even members of the elite country-sports lobby were troubled by newcomers, keen on “combat style” shooting, entering the sport.

These tensions opened up after Dunblane. The government commissioned Lord Cullen run an inquiry into the incident. He recommended cautious compromises (storing firearms in secure armouries or police stations). These were initially rejected as “unworkable” by shooters, but they were ultimately overwhelmed by the strength of public feeling.

Arguing that Britain’s developing gun culture was responsible for the tragedy of Dunblane, the Snowdrop campaign presented a 750,000 signature petition to the UK parliament.

The government of the time, under the premiership of John Major, was split, reluctant to confront pro-gun Tory backbenchers, although Tony Blair’s New Labour was waiting in the wings, ready to seize the issue. The then home secretary Michael Howard initially wanted to accept Cullen’s compromise. But the Scottish secretary, Michael Forsythe, MP for Dunblane’s neighbouring constituency of Stirling, with one of the smallest parliamentary majorities, had made commitments to bereaved family members. Eventually the prime minister supported Forsythe and backed the handgun control proposals.

The Conservative government legislated to ban higher calibre handguns in 1997. After the New Labour government swept to power that May, it added .22 calibre handguns to the prohibited list.

By March 1999, the National Audit Office reported to parliament that 165,353 licensed handguns and 700 tonnes of ammunition, had been surrendered, involving an estimated compensation cost of £95m.



In England & Wales post Dunblaine Gun Crime actually went up, quite significantly for the first few years after the bans in 1997. But this was because crimes with imitation guns massively increased and were for the first time included in gun crime statistics.

As any criminologists would stress, passing a law does not in itself prevent crime. Rather more was happening, for the 1990s saw the development of a wholly new gun market in the UK comprising non-firing “realistic imitation” firearms (hitherto largely unknown in the UK), BB guns, and high-powered air weapons.

There was a ready demand for many of these “junk guns” in Britain’s emerging gang cultures, where firearm carrying was culturally endorsed. Researchers found that a large proportion of “armed robberies” were carried out by offenders with imitation or non-functioning firearms. The rise in handgun crime had nothing to do with the handgun ban and everything to do with the changing patterns of supply and demand in the illegal firearms market.


So if you ban or strongly curtail the legality of guns, you also have to take care of the illegal and immitation side as well.


Yes the US has an entirely different culture. But you have options.

I would also argue that the graph on page 1 clearly shows countries with lower levels of gun crime than the US. Total, and per head of population. If there is less gun crime = a more safe population. Anything else is just symantecs.


We are in the age of data now - and data clearly shows that controlling high-capacity and high-powered weapons can make a difference in public safety. ‘Feelz’ about guns are not a compelling reason to maintain the status quo by any metric.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2621
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
extender wrote:
You wrote that you had proof that more laws made the populace safer. Where is it? The graph does not support your statement.


Scotland, post Dunblaine after 1996:

Image

In Scotland, handgun offences fell by almost 80% in the five years after Dunblane.


After the Dunblane massacre, handgun control became highly political. Handgun ownership was increasing in the 1990s and sports shooting, the only legitimate reason for owning a handgun, was a fast growing sport. Yet even members of the elite country-sports lobby were troubled by newcomers, keen on “combat style” shooting, entering the sport.

These tensions opened up after Dunblane. The government commissioned Lord Cullen run an inquiry into the incident. He recommended cautious compromises (storing firearms in secure armouries or police stations). These were initially rejected as “unworkable” by shooters, but they were ultimately overwhelmed by the strength of public feeling.

Arguing that Britain’s developing gun culture was responsible for the tragedy of Dunblane, the Snowdrop campaign presented a 750,000 signature petition to the UK parliament.

The government of the time, under the premiership of John Major, was split, reluctant to confront pro-gun Tory backbenchers, although Tony Blair’s New Labour was waiting in the wings, ready to seize the issue. The then home secretary Michael Howard initially wanted to accept Cullen’s compromise. But the Scottish secretary, Michael Forsythe, MP for Dunblane’s neighbouring constituency of Stirling, with one of the smallest parliamentary majorities, had made commitments to bereaved family members. Eventually the prime minister supported Forsythe and backed the handgun control proposals.

The Conservative government legislated to ban higher calibre handguns in 1997. After the New Labour government swept to power that May, it added .22 calibre handguns to the prohibited list.

By March 1999, the National Audit Office reported to parliament that 165,353 licensed handguns and 700 tonnes of ammunition, had been surrendered, involving an estimated compensation cost of £95m.



In England & Wales post Dunblaine Gun Crime actually went up, quite significantly for the first few years after the bans in 1997. But this was because crimes with imitation guns massively increased and were for the first time included in gun crime statistics.

As any criminologists would stress, passing a law does not in itself prevent crime. Rather more was happening, for the 1990s saw the development of a wholly new gun market in the UK comprising non-firing “realistic imitation” firearms (hitherto largely unknown in the UK), BB guns, and high-powered air weapons.

There was a ready demand for many of these “junk guns” in Britain’s emerging gang cultures, where firearm carrying was culturally endorsed. Researchers found that a large proportion of “armed robberies” were carried out by offenders with imitation or non-functioning firearms. The rise in handgun crime had nothing to do with the handgun ban and everything to do with the changing patterns of supply and demand in the illegal firearms market.


So if you ban or strongly curtail the legality of guns, you also have to take care of the illegal and immitation side as well.


Yes the US has an entirely different culture. But you have options.

I would also argue that the graph on page 1 clearly shows countries with lower levels of gun crime than the US. Total, and per head of population. If there is less gun crime = a more safe population. Anything else is just symantecs.


We are in the age of data now - and data clearly shows that controlling high-capacity and high-powered weapons can make a difference in public safety. ‘Feelz’ about guns are not a compelling reason to maintain the status quo by any metric.


Source?

Pretty sure gun violence, specifically homicides involving a firearm, has decreased as the number of guns and high-capacity magazines has increased. (Note, you said "high-powered" weapons which is not true. An AR-15 is not a high-powered weapon, when configured in the standard .223 caliber.)
 
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zkojq
Posts: 3776
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:46 pm

extender wrote:
fallap wrote:
Too bad those gunned down in one senseless shooting spree after the other can't have all that freedom you advocate.


Same can be said of the Armenian Genocide.


Completely and totally irrelevant and it's unbelievably insulting that you would play the holocaust card.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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zkojq
Posts: 3776
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:49 pm

extender wrote:
I prefer belt-fed ones, much more entertaining. What does the Armenian Genocide have to do with anything? Hmm, when people have no means to defend themselves, genocide has taken place. The Jews were disarmed, the Armenians were disarmed, the Chinese were disarmed.


What a load of horse c#@&. If the government is coming for you, they'll be coming for you with a predator drone and your shitty AR16 will be completely and utterly useless.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:17 pm

zkojq wrote:
extender wrote:
I prefer belt-fed ones, much more entertaining. What does the Armenian Genocide have to do with anything? Hmm, when people have no means to defend themselves, genocide has taken place. The Jews were disarmed, the Armenians were disarmed, the Chinese were disarmed.


What a load of horse c#@&. If the government is coming for you, they'll be coming for you with a predator drone and your shitty AR16 will be completely and utterly useless.


It's funny how no other western country feels the need to keep guns anymore incase the govenment comes after them. For me I tick a box with a pencil if I don't like a govenment.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9376
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Biden says he's coming for assault weapons

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Scotland, post Dunblaine after 1996:

Image






In England & Wales post Dunblaine Gun Crime actually went up, quite significantly for the first few years after the bans in 1997. But this was because crimes with imitation guns massively increased and were for the first time included in gun crime statistics.



So if you ban or strongly curtail the legality of guns, you also have to take care of the illegal and immitation side as well.


Yes the US has an entirely different culture. But you have options.

I would also argue that the graph on page 1 clearly shows countries with lower levels of gun crime than the US. Total, and per head of population. If there is less gun crime = a more safe population. Anything else is just symantecs.


We are in the age of data now - and data clearly shows that controlling high-capacity and high-powered weapons can make a difference in public safety. ‘Feelz’ about guns are not a compelling reason to maintain the status quo by any metric.


Source?

Pretty sure gun violence, specifically homicides involving a firearm, has decreased as the number of guns and high-capacity magazines has increased. (Note, you said "high-powered" weapons which is not true. An AR-15 is not a high-powered weapon, when configured in the standard .223 caliber.)


The source was the Dunblaine graph and hundreds of others showing other developed/Western countries have the same societal ills as the US minus guns with far fewer-to-no mass shootings and regular firearm homicides. This reality is indisputable.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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