JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
ARs come in lots of chamberings more powerful than .223, many very suitable for larger game.


The vast majority are. And in any case it's just better to buy a decent, bigger calibre platform than tinker around with uppers, lowers, batters, actions, and whatnot to accuritize something that just hasn't been designed for it.

It's the gun equivalent of putting wings, exhausts and chipping your 90s civic.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
extender wrote:
Tragedy happens


So that will be your response when an idiot with an AR-15 guns down your family?

* shoulder shrug *

"What can you do? Tragedy happens."

extender wrote:
and the solution is to give your rights away to the government? Damn sad.


What's damned sad is folks believing their right to a gun trumps everyone else's right to a life not ended by a nut with a gun.


The odds of anyone being gunned down with an AR-15 are extremely low. Statistically, more people are murdered with hammers and other blunt objects in the US each year than are murdered with rifles of any kind. I guess it is time to shut down hardware stores?
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:33 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
FatCat wrote:
[



In some parts of the US I completely accept that a form of gun is a tool and in some cases is required for security. But in most of America it isn't one that's required. It's purely for the fun of having a gun. If you need it for home protection, then your police force isn't doing it's job right. Vote in a new chief of police, vote in a new Govenment who fixes your problems. Spend more money on the Police. If you need a gun at home then it should be locked up in an approved safe and should be checked by the police. Come up with solutions. It's 2019. Having thousands of people killed each year because of guns is insane.


That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
 
M564038
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:14 am

No reason to even speculate about matters like this:
The actual factual numbers show these simple truths:
1/Less guns = less deaths. This even include not having armed police= less death.
2/Bans work. It takes a bit of time, but gun-restrictions introduced reduce the number of deaths dramatically. Always.



N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
FatCat wrote:
[



In some parts of the US I completely accept that a form of gun is a tool and in some cases is required for security. But in most of America it isn't one that's required. It's purely for the fun of having a gun. If you need it for home protection, then your police force isn't doing it's job right. Vote in a new chief of police, vote in a new Govenment who fixes your problems. Spend more money on the Police. If you need a gun at home then it should be locked up in an approved safe and should be checked by the police. Come up with solutions. It's 2019. Having thousands of people killed each year because of guns is insane.


That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:20 am

[quote="M564038"]No reason to even speculate about matters like this:
The actual factual numbers show these simple truths:
1/Less guns = less deaths. This even include not having armed police= less death.
2/Bans work. It takes a bit of time, but gun-restrictions introduced reduce the number of deaths dramatically. Always.


How is that working out in London? Thanks, no.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:27 am

extender wrote:

How is that working out in London? Thanks, no.


You mean the London that has half the murder rate of new York? 7 times lower than that of Dallas or less than a tenth of that of Philadelphia?

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/18/worl ... index.html
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:35 am

The London that banned guns and then knives. Stick to the merits, not the diversions.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:42 am

extender wrote:
The London that banned guns and then knives. Stick to the merits, not the diversions.


The merit is a murder rate that's a fraction to that of comparable cities in America.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:55 am

N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
FatCat wrote:
[



In some parts of the US I completely accept that a form of gun is a tool and in some cases is required for security. But in most of America it isn't one that's required. It's purely for the fun of having a gun. If you need it for home protection, then your police force isn't doing it's job right. Vote in a new chief of police, vote in a new Govenment who fixes your problems. Spend more money on the Police. If you need a gun at home then it should be locked up in an approved safe and should be checked by the police. Come up with solutions. It's 2019. Having thousands of people killed each year because of guns is insane.


That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.


The rest of the civilised world works fine relying on it's Police forces. They also have lower murder rate and lower violent crime.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:56 am

M564038 wrote:
No reason to even speculate about matters like this:
The actual factual numbers show these simple truths:
1/Less guns = less deaths. This even include not having armed police= less death.
2/Bans work. It takes a bit of time, but gun-restrictions introduced reduce the number of deaths dramatically. Always.



N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:


That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.


1. A ban is off the table. Our constitution prohibits it, and it is not realistically possible to change that.
2. There are already more guns than people in the United States. The hundreds of millions of guns that are already on the streets here are going nowhere.
3. You did nothing to address my point that when seconds matter the police are minutes away.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:58 am

Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:


That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.


The rest of the civilised world works fine relying on it's Police forces. They also have lower murder rate and lower violent crime.


And? Is the 911 operator supposed to tell the woman home alone whose home is being broken into, "Don't worry, ma'am. You're probably going to die before the police can get to you, but if it is any consolation, the crime rate in Luxembourg is very low. Have you ever been there?"
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:01 am

extender wrote:
The London that banned guns and then knives. Stick to the merits, not the diversions.


London didn't ban guns, hand guns were banned across the whole of the UK. You are still allowed to own a shotgun but there are extremely tight regulations surrounding this.

Yes carrying a knife beyond a certain length is illegal.

The increased murder rate in London over the last decade is due to a massive cut in Police numbers, drastic reduction in funding of kids activities in the most deprived areas, and gangs generally fighting each other (usually drug related). None of this is because we have banned guns or knives.

And still after all of this, crime in London is lower than any US city.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:03 am

N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:

That's completely asinine and incorrect. There are far more instances of defensive gun usage in the United States each year than there are gun deaths. You can have an outstanding police force, but unless you have an officer in every single home ready to respond 24/7/365 (something that could cost many trillions of dollars), they are going to be a reactive rather than a proactive force. Say someone is breaking into your home...you call 911. It takes 90 seconds for the call taker to gather your information. It takes them another 60 seconds to dispatch officers. It takes the first officer an additional 11 minutes to arrive on scene. By that time there's a good chance you'll be dead unless you have a means of defending yourself.

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.


The rest of the civilised world works fine relying on it's Police forces. They also have lower murder rate and lower violent crime.


And? Is the 911 operator supposed to tell the woman home alone whose home is being broken into, "Don't worry, ma'am. You're probably going to die before the police can get to you, but if it is any consolation, the crime rate in Luxembourg is very low. Have you ever been there?"


Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:05 am

Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

The rest of the civilised world works fine relying on it's Police forces. They also have lower murder rate and lower violent crime.


And? Is the 911 operator supposed to tell the woman home alone whose home is being broken into, "Don't worry, ma'am. You're probably going to die before the police can get to you, but if it is any consolation, the crime rate in Luxembourg is very low. Have you ever been there?"


Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.


As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it. We'd be better off working at enforcing existing laws and trying to get illegal guns out of the hands of criminals as opposed to attempting to illegally disarm law-abiding citizens and leaving them with no means of defending themselves from well-armed criminals.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:12 am

N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:

And? Is the 911 operator supposed to tell the woman home alone whose home is being broken into, "Don't worry, ma'am. You're probably going to die before the police can get to you, but if it is any consolation, the crime rate in Luxembourg is very low. Have you ever been there?"


Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.


As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it. We'd be better off working at enforcing existing laws and trying to get illegal guns out of the hands of criminals as opposed to attempting to illegally disarm law-abiding citizens and leaving them with no means of defending themselves from well-armed criminals.


Well coming from a country that doesn't have a written constitution I find it incredible that you can't amend an amendment, that is hundreds of years out of date in a democracy. But there we are.

So what laws that exist already aren't enforced? And for what reason are they not enforced? I genuinely want to learn and understand what the problems are here.

I can completely understand if you have criminals with guns, that you may feel you need a gun for home protection. I'm simply saying that it clearly should not be the case in a civilised society that it is required, or even the thought of it is required. So fine, start by getting the guns out of the hands of criminals. How is that done with the 2nd Amendment 100% in place and an NRA with an entire political force on it's side?
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:21 am

Reinhardt wrote:
The increased murder rate in London over the last decade is due to a massive cut in Police numbers, drastic reduction in funding of kids activities in the most deprived areas, and gangs generally fighting each other (usually drug related). None of this is because we have banned guns or knives.


So the government can't keep you safe? Imagine that. So how are you to defend yourself in London when some pissed off immigrant comes at you with a machete?

Reinhardt wrote:
And still after all of this, crime in London is lower than any US city.


I feel safer in Lisbon than I do in London. And I feel safer in Ft. Lauderdale than anywhere else.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:22 am

Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.


As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it. We'd be better off working at enforcing existing laws and trying to get illegal guns out of the hands of criminals as opposed to attempting to illegally disarm law-abiding citizens and leaving them with no means of defending themselves from well-armed criminals.


Well coming from a country that doesn't have a written constitution I find it incredible that you can't amend an amendment, that is hundreds of years out of date in a democracy. But there we are.

So what laws that exist already aren't enforced? And for what reason are they not enforced? I genuinely want to learn and understand what the problems are here.

I can completely understand if you have criminals with guns, that you may feel you need a gun for home protection. I'm simply saying that it clearly should not be the case in a civilised society that it is required, or even the thought of it is required. So fine, start by getting the guns out of the hands of criminals. How is that done with the 2nd Amendment 100% in place and an NRA with an entire political force on it's side?


Sure, it is technically possible to amend an amendment, but in reality, it is fundamentally impossible to get rid of the 2nd. You'd need to have the legislatures of 38 states vote to ratify the amendment. That is not likely to happen in any of our lifetimes, as the 2nd Amendment is very popular in the United States for a multitude of reasons. Even the most ardent of gun-control supporters on the Democratic side of the aisle have shied away from even suggesting going after the 2nd.

Most gun violence in the United States is gang/drug related. Gang members often have lengthy criminal histories and are not legally allowed to own firearms in the first place. Much of the violence on our streets is due to criminals carrying firearms that they have acquired illegally. Often times people are caught with illegal firearms and charged with a crime, only to have those charges reduced or dismissed. Durham, NC made the news recently as they are in the midst of a violent month with many shootings, and it was recently disclosed that over 50% of the people there last year who were charged with carrying illegal weapons had those charges dismissed once in court.

I believe that we need to enforce strict punishments on people who illegally possess firearms. If you use a firearm in the commission of a crime, you get a mandatory minimum 10 year prison term. If you are a felon illegally carrying a gun, you get a mandatory 5 year prison term. Get rid of the guns that are already illegal and you'll see homicide rates plummet.
Last edited by N1611B on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:24 am

N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
N1611B wrote:

And? Is the 911 operator supposed to tell the woman home alone whose home is being broken into, "Don't worry, ma'am. You're probably going to die before the police can get to you, but if it is any consolation, the crime rate in Luxembourg is very low. Have you ever been there?"


Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.


As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it.


Your president wants to change the 14th Amendment, surely that works for the 2nd, too?
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:26 am

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Then fix the sodding problems that cause so much violent crime in the first place. Some of that will require the banning or tightening of gun laws.


As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it.


Your president wants to change the 14th Amendment, surely that works for the 2nd, too?


He can want to change it all day long. Just like I can fly to Tahiti and want to claim it as my new kingdom. That doesn't change the fact that there is a process that must be completed if either of those things is to actually happen.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:30 am

extender wrote:
So the government can't keep you safe? Imagine that. So how are you to defend yourself in London when some pissed off immigrant comes at you with a machete?


Luckily for me I know that statistics show that immigrants contribute more to our economy than they take out and have a lower level of crime. Also I'm not racist so I don't focus on worrying about immigrants attacking me. You're more likely to have a pissed of white guy driving a white van who can't drive swearing and threatening you.

For the rest, we have a professional police force. In my life I've only ever had to call the police once. I was in a office building being robbed. They turned up in 5mins, all 4 cars and an armed response unit.

London is a massive city. Like any major city you have to be a bit wary. Outside of London, I feel more safe than anywhere on earth.


You guys in the US have a very different approach / idea about crime than seemingly the rest of us.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:30 am

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

As I already mentioned, a gun ban is off the table as our constitution prohibits it.


Your president wants to change the 14th Amendment, surely that works for the 2nd, too?


He can want to change it all day long. Just like I can fly to Tahiti and want to claim it as my new kingdom. That doesn't change the fact that there is a process that must be completed if either of those things is to actually happen.


So it is possible, that's why such things as amendments exist in the first place.

That said, I don't know of any single country that has effectively banned guns. There are legal guns everywhere, only relative ease or difficulty to get and use them.
 
N1611B
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:36 am

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Your president wants to change the 14th Amendment, surely that works for the 2nd, too?


He can want to change it all day long. Just like I can fly to Tahiti and want to claim it as my new kingdom. That doesn't change the fact that there is a process that must be completed if either of those things is to actually happen.


So it is possible, that's why such things as amendments exist in the first place.

That said, I don't know of any single country that has effectively banned guns. There are legal guns everywhere, only relative ease or difficulty to get and use them.


It is possible, just like it is possible that every single current Democratic presidential candidate drops out of the race and endorses Trump, causing him to win the 2020 election with a full 100% of the popular vote. I'd say both those scenarios are about equally likely.

The thing about Constitutional rights is that you can't place excessive burdens on them. You can't make it absurdly difficult or expensive to get a firearm because doing so would deprive your constituents of their right to own one. That's the reason the United States had to get rid of poll taxes and literacy tests during elections. Previous attempts to highly regulate gun ownership (like DC's former handgun ban) have been struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.
 
JJJ
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:46 am

N1611B wrote:

The thing about Constitutional rights is that you can't place excessive burdens on them. You can't make it absurdly difficult or expensive to get a firearm because doing so would deprive your constituents of their right to own one. That's the reason the United States had to get rid of poll taxes and literacy tests during elections. Previous attempts to highly regulate gun ownership (like DC's former handgun ban) have been struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.


Yet for example gun capacity limits or semi-auto bans have been found constitutional.

There's a lot of wriggle room under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:47 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Luckily for me I know that statistics show that immigrants contribute more to our economy than they take out and have a lower level of crime. Also I'm not racist so I don't focus on worrying about immigrants attacking me. You're more likely to have a pissed of white guy driving a white van who can't drive swearing and threatening you.


There's that little bugaboo, where does race come in? How do you know it isn't an immigrant from New Zealand, Argentina or the US. You automatically associate immigrants with race, and that is not a good correlation to make.

Reinhardt wrote:
For the rest, we have a professional police force. In my life I've only ever had to call the police once. I was in a office building being robbed. They turned up in 5mins, all 4 cars and an armed response unit.

London is a massive city. Like any major city you have to be a bit wary. Outside of London, I feel more safe than anywhere on earth.


You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns? I've seen some London cops get pummeled when they should have been able to use lethal force, but they weren't fortunate enough to be on the armed response unit.

Reinhardt wrote:
You guys in the US have a very different approach / idea about crime than seemingly the rest of us.


Right, because all they do is profile and shoot people for kicks.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:03 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

The thing about Constitutional rights is that you can't place excessive burdens on them. You can't make it absurdly difficult or expensive to get a firearm because doing so would deprive your constituents of their right to own one. That's the reason the United States had to get rid of poll taxes and literacy tests during elections. Previous attempts to highly regulate gun ownership (like DC's former handgun ban) have been struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.


Yet for example gun capacity limits or semi-auto bans have been found constitutional.

There's a lot of wriggle room under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment.


Semi-auto bans have not been found to be constitutional, as a semi-auto ban would ban nearly all handguns and rifles.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:05 pm

extender wrote:

You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns?


That's not the point (although it's probably true).

The point is you automatically acknowledge danger in the form of "there's people out there who want to break into my home, therefore I get a gun".

The fact that owning a gun is risk into itself for you, your family and the society as a whole is absolutely ignored by most people, because I'm a good guy and a responsible gun owner (but don't try to make me prove it because you're infringing my rights and playing into the hands of the criminals).
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:09 pm

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

The thing about Constitutional rights is that you can't place excessive burdens on them. You can't make it absurdly difficult or expensive to get a firearm because doing so would deprive your constituents of their right to own one. That's the reason the United States had to get rid of poll taxes and literacy tests during elections. Previous attempts to highly regulate gun ownership (like DC's former handgun ban) have been struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.


Yet for example gun capacity limits or semi-auto bans have been found constitutional.

There's a lot of wriggle room under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment.


Semi-auto bans have not been found to be constitutional, as a semi-auto ban would ban nearly all handguns and rifles.


I was mostly refering to the California law, so basically rifles.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:15 pm

JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:

You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns?


That's not the point (although it's probably true).

The point is you automatically acknowledge danger in the form of "there's people out there who want to break into my home, therefore I get a gun".

The fact that owning a gun is risk into itself for you, your family and the society as a whole is absolutely ignored by most people, because I'm a good guy and a responsible gun owner (but don't try to make me prove it because you're infringing my rights and playing into the hands of the criminals).


The fact is there are people who break into homes and do harm, frequently. There are many, many, many instances of legally-armed homeowners protecting themselves from criminals well before the police can get to the scene.

Yes, owning a gun is a risk for you, but so is owning a knife, or a pool, or a vehicle. With care and common sense, that risk can be reduced to near zero.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
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Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:16 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Yet for example gun capacity limits or semi-auto bans have been found constitutional.

There's a lot of wriggle room under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment.


Semi-auto bans have not been found to be constitutional, as a semi-auto ban would ban nearly all handguns and rifles.


I was mostly refering to the California law, so basically rifles.


Semi-auto rifles are still legal in California. They just limit magazine size.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:26 pm

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:

You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns?


That's not the point (although it's probably true).

The point is you automatically acknowledge danger in the form of "there's people out there who want to break into my home, therefore I get a gun".

The fact that owning a gun is risk into itself for you, your family and the society as a whole is absolutely ignored by most people, because I'm a good guy and a responsible gun owner (but don't try to make me prove it because you're infringing my rights and playing into the hands of the criminals).


The fact is there are people who break into homes and do harm, frequently. There are many, many, many instances of legally-armed homeowners protecting themselves from criminals well before the police can get to the scene.

Yes, owning a gun is a risk for you, but so is owning a knife, or a pool, or a vehicle. With care and common sense, that risk can be reduced to near zero.


Which is why I own guns. I wonder why the resistance in making sure that there is care and common sense.

Vehicles have mandatory requirements for license and insurance after all.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:37 pm

extender wrote:

There's that little bugaboo, where does race come in? How do you know it isn't an immigrant from New Zealand, Argentina or the US. You automatically associate immigrants with race, and that is not a good correlation to make.


You said about a pissed immigrant. It was rather clear to me you were not refering to someone from New Zealand, Argentina or US else you wouldn't have made the comment.
On the contrary. I was born in London and lived there for 37 years. As multicultrual as can be.


extender wrote:
You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns? I've seen some London cops get pummeled when they should have been able to use lethal force, but they weren't fortunate enough to be on the armed response unit.


From a lot of what I have seen in the US personally, and seen in the media in many cases yes. I think you have a severe problem with a lack of training in sections of the US Police forces.

UK Police are routinely asked if they want to be armed. Their answer is always overwhealming no.
The armed response units, when the Police are properly funded (which they haven't been for the last 8-10 years) are completely sufficient and again when they are properly funded Police never used to do walking rounds or respond to calls as 1 person. Now they routinely do.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:39 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:

That's not the point (although it's probably true).

The point is you automatically acknowledge danger in the form of "there's people out there who want to break into my home, therefore I get a gun".

The fact that owning a gun is risk into itself for you, your family and the society as a whole is absolutely ignored by most people, because I'm a good guy and a responsible gun owner (but don't try to make me prove it because you're infringing my rights and playing into the hands of the criminals).


The fact is there are people who break into homes and do harm, frequently. There are many, many, many instances of legally-armed homeowners protecting themselves from criminals well before the police can get to the scene.

Yes, owning a gun is a risk for you, but so is owning a knife, or a pool, or a vehicle. With care and common sense, that risk can be reduced to near zero.


Which is why I own guns. I wonder why the resistance in making sure that there is care and common sense.

Vehicles have mandatory requirements for license and insurance after all.


Right, but we also don't have a constitutional right to own a vehicle. Personally, I have no problem with requiring insurance and maybe even a license. I just don't think that would stand up to a court challenge. Look at how many Voter ID bills have been challenged, for example.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:41 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
extender wrote:

There's that little bugaboo, where does race come in? How do you know it isn't an immigrant from New Zealand, Argentina or the US. You automatically associate immigrants with race, and that is not a good correlation to make.


You said about a pissed immigrant. It was rather clear to me you were not refering to someone from New Zealand, Argentina or US else you wouldn't have made the comment.
On the contrary. I was born in London and lived there for 37 years. As multicultrual as can be.


extender wrote:
You think the police forces in the US are amateurs? A militia of sorts with badges and guns? I've seen some London cops get pummeled when they should have been able to use lethal force, but they weren't fortunate enough to be on the armed response unit.


From a lot of what I have seen in the US personally, and seen in the media in many cases yes. I think you have a severe problem with a lack of training in sections of the US Police forces.

UK Police are routinely asked if they want to be armed. Their answer is always overwhealming no.
The armed response units, when the Police are properly funded (which they haven't been for the last 8-10 years) are completely sufficient and again when they are properly funded Police never used to do walking rounds or respond to calls as 1 person. Now they routinely do.


You can't really make blanket assumptions based on what you see on the media. There are over 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the United States. Of course with any group that size you are going to have bad apples. Even if 99% are outstanding, that still leaves you with 8,000 subpar officers. A few particularly egregious cases make the news each year (some sensationalized, some not), but the many tens of millions of positive encounters that the police have with people each year do not.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:09 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
From a lot of what I have seen in the US personally, and seen in the media in many cases yes. I think you have a severe problem with a lack of training in sections of the US Police forces.


I hate to tell you, but totally off the mark. What background do you have to make this determination?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:01 pm

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

The fact is there are people who break into homes and do harm, frequently. There are many, many, many instances of legally-armed homeowners protecting themselves from criminals well before the police can get to the scene.

Yes, owning a gun is a risk for you, but so is owning a knife, or a pool, or a vehicle. With care and common sense, that risk can be reduced to near zero.


Which is why I own guns. I wonder why the resistance in making sure that there is care and common sense.

Vehicles have mandatory requirements for license and insurance after all.


Right, but we also don't have a constitutional right to own a vehicle. Personally, I have no problem with requiring insurance and maybe even a license. I just don't think that would stand up to a court challenge. Look at how many Voter ID bills have been challenged, for example.


The only solution is to either amend the amendment or draw a tougher line on what is a personal firearm and what's defence equipment.

That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.


No, it cannot.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:39 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Which is why I own guns. I wonder why the resistance in making sure that there is care and common sense.

Vehicles have mandatory requirements for license and insurance after all.


Right, but we also don't have a constitutional right to own a vehicle. Personally, I have no problem with requiring insurance and maybe even a license. I just don't think that would stand up to a court challenge. Look at how many Voter ID bills have been challenged, for example.


The only solution is to either amend the amendment or draw a tougher line on what is a personal firearm and what's defence equipment.

That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.


Amending the amendment is not plausible (you aren't going to get 38 state legislatures to agree to amend the 2nd, if you don't believe me, just take a look at the 2016 electoral map).

Where would you draw the line?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:09 pm

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Right, but we also don't have a constitutional right to own a vehicle. Personally, I have no problem with requiring insurance and maybe even a license. I just don't think that would stand up to a court challenge. Look at how many Voter ID bills have been challenged, for example.


The only solution is to either amend the amendment or draw a tougher line on what is a personal firearm and what's defence equipment.

That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.


Amending the amendment is not plausible (you aren't going to get 38 state legislatures to agree to amend the 2nd, if you don't believe me, just take a look at the 2016 electoral map).

Where would you draw the line?


3 rounds capacity for long guns (rifle & shotgun) and extensive training & checks for handguns.

Tried and tested in many countries.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:20 pm

Good, let them keep their three rounds, or move there and feel safer.
 
N1611B
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:35 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The only solution is to either amend the amendment or draw a tougher line on what is a personal firearm and what's defence equipment.

That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.


Amending the amendment is not plausible (you aren't going to get 38 state legislatures to agree to amend the 2nd, if you don't believe me, just take a look at the 2016 electoral map).

Where would you draw the line?


3 rounds capacity for long guns (rifle & shotgun) and extensive training & checks for handguns.

Tried and tested in many countries.


Three rounds would be essentially useless for home defense. A ten round magazine limit would be more appropriate, IMO.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:39 pm

Mine doesn't have a magazine.
 
seb146
Posts: 20262
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:32 pm

extender wrote:
JJJ wrote:
That line has been drawn before (full auto weapons, for instance) and it can be pushed again.


No, it cannot.


The United States had an assault weapons ban for 10 years starting in 1994. It was not renewed in 2004. There is a bill in the House proposing a ban similar to the one we had then. But, because NRA backed Republicans control the Senate, it will never happen. And the mass shootings will continue.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:59 pm

The mass shooting don't happen because of the NRA. They happen for a myriad of reasons, but the gun isn't responsible; stop making it the scapegoat.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:20 pm

N1611B wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Amending the amendment is not plausible (you aren't going to get 38 state legislatures to agree to amend the 2nd, if you don't believe me, just take a look at the 2016 electoral map).

Where would you draw the line?


3 rounds capacity for long guns (rifle & shotgun) and extensive training & checks for handguns.

Tried and tested in many countries.


Three rounds would be essentially useless for home defense. A ten round magazine limit would be more appropriate, IMO.


A handgun is a much better choice for home defence. A rifle is a tool for hunting and precision shooting.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:56 pm

Really, a handgun is better for home defense? What caliber in particular? A .44 Mag? A .22LR? Why?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3257
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:26 am

extender wrote:
Really, a handgun is better for home defense? What caliber in particular? A .44 Mag? A .22LR? Why?


Whatever you can get your hands on. Once whoever breaks in sees you're armed it's a scramble for the door/window.

I have a CZ shadow because that's what I shoot IPSC with, but even a blank gun works 99% of the time.

A few years back a fellow competitive shooter dispatched two people with an Olympic-style .22 in a very publicised case where two thugs were beating his brother (a bar owner) for the days cash.

It took a single shot for each.

When you start talking calibers it's the wrong discussion. You have to use whatever you can shoot well enough under pressure.

Otherwise that gun is a liability and you're a danger to yourself and society.
 
extender
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Guns violence: Politicans secretly love it

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:27 pm

JJJ wrote:
Whatever you can get your hands on. Once whoever breaks in sees you're armed it's a scramble for the door/window.


Um, no.

JJJ wrote:
I have a CZ shadow because that's what I shoot IPSC with, but even a blank gun works 99% of the time.


Really? A starter pistol? Where are your stats that support a blank gun stops 99% of the intrusions?

JJJ wrote:
A few years back a fellow competitive shooter dispatched two people with an Olympic-style .22 in a very publicised case where two thugs were beating his brother (a bar owner) for the days cash.

It took a single shot for each.


It is all about shot placement; pumps or switches? Hips or heads?

JJJ wrote:
When you start talking calibers it's the wrong discussion. You have to use whatever you can shoot well enough under pressure.


It is the wrong discussion? You provided the statistic that 99% of events are handled by a blank gun. What happens when that 1% that the intruder cares not for what he hears, he needs whatever he can get his hands on to make money for whatever ills him/her? If you're shooting down a hallway in the dark, how will you know where to aim? Your hope is that the caliber is big enough to do some sort of damage to stop the intrusion.

For home defense, the best thing you can have is a 12 GA, with #4 shot. The funnel of doom works in your favor.

JJJ wrote:
Otherwise that gun is a liability and you're a danger to yourself and society.


Better to have it and not need it, to need it and not have it. And that is why, although not a requirement, a person should train often to keep the edge sharp.

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