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Dutchy
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Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:00 am

Putin’s Uncertain Future Shadows a Crackdown on Moscow Protests


At least 10 key participants in the July 27 protests will be charged with fomenting mass civil unrest and violence, which carries a prison term of up to 15 years, investigators announced on Thursday. The largely peaceful protests rippling through a chilly Moscow summer were prompted by the city’s Electoral Commission barring opposition candidates from registering for city council elections on Sept. 8.


Most of Russia’s 143 million people are surviving on stagnant incomes in a struggling economy. Nearly 21 million live below the poverty line, an increase of 500,000 this year, official statistics show. Most Russians live in a gloomy, dilapidated world of terrible roads, crumbling buildings and unpredictable medical care.

The central government takes in revenue generated across the country from natural resources like oil and gas, and sends little back.


The 57 rejected candidates for the Moscow council include around 17 staunch Kremlin critics. Most of them have been jailed on sentences of up to 30 days on charges linked to the demonstrations.

One opposition politician who refused to compromise with City Hall over the location of the next protest was grabbed outside the negotiating room and sent to prison for a month.

“By the reaction of the authorities, we see that this frightens them,” said Konstantin von Eggert, a political analyst. “They are scared of the first stone that can start an avalanche.”


New York Times article

These are the largest anti-Putin protest since 2012. Is this the beginning of a more democratic Russia, a more fair Russia, a better Russia for ordinary Russians? The direct grievant is the unfair upcoming elections for Moscow and the crackdown on Kremlin critics and banning them from taking part in the elections. But it is clear that Russians do look at the Kremlin quite a bit different. The Putin regime seems to be scared and try to put the protest down.

Let's hope this is the beginning of change for Russians.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
Is this the beginning of a more democratic Russia, a more fair Russia, a better Russia for ordinary Russians?


I guess it's much too soon to tell. Only in the future, when a more a democratic Russia will be in place, will it be possible to see when it all began?
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:32 am

Russia Economy is not growing. Too much money spent on military etc.

Normal people getting tired and Putin losses in popularity.

This means that this time Russian government do not allow protests or free elections.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:53 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Is this the beginning of a more democratic Russia, a more fair Russia, a better Russia for ordinary Russians?


I guess it's much too soon to tell. Only in the future, when a more a democratic Russia will be in place, will it be possible to see when it all began?


True, will be interesting to watch what will happen. Perhaps this is also crushed like the 2012 unrest, but the unrest stays within the people. Always hard to get an autocratic regime out of the way for a democratic government.

olle wrote:
Russia Economy is not growing. Too much money spent on military etc.

Normal people getting tired and Putin losses in popularity.

This means that this time Russian government do not allow protests or free elections.


True, an autocratic regime will not allow it and it will not allow an opposition Moscow counsel, this is what triggered this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 am

The general public in Russia is getting fed up with the lies, even worse than during the USSR days, from their government and leaders, a declining quality of life, economic inequity, a government run by kelpocrats, Eventually people realize they have to fight for their plight and sadly subject to repression as challenge the leaders.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:59 am

Problem is that when Putin is weak Russian government attacks its neighbors.

Georgia, Ukraine, Who's next?

In the same time this conflicts except for devastate the attacked countries, adds cost to Russia as form of direct military costs and indirect lost business. Russia need to add business and create connections special to Europe. With the current policies it will continue to be the gasoline station in the east.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:07 am

olle wrote:
Problem is that when Putin is weak Russian government attacks its neighbors.

Georgia, Ukraine, Who's next?

In the same time this conflicts except for devastate the attacked countries, adds cost to Russia as form of direct military costs and indirect lost business. Russia need to add business and create connections special to Europe. With the current policies it will continue to be the gasoline station in the east.


As long as we haven't moved away from fossil fuels. And the last oil will not be pomped in Russia, but in Saudi Arabia where it cost $5/barrol to pomp, instead of $30 of $40.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
jetmechanicdave
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:20 pm

Please discuss the topic. If we can’t it may be locked.
Aircraft Mechanic and Airliners.net Forum Moderator
 
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Aesma
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:58 pm

Never a good sign when you need to play such tactics to "win" an election.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Is this the beginning of a more democratic Russia, a more fair Russia, a better Russia for ordinary Russians?


It’s time to understand one simple thing - “more democratic” doesn’t equate “better”. Quite the opposite cases are by far more common. If it becomes “more democratic” (hopefully not) - it certainly will not be any better.

Dutchy wrote:
Let's hope this is the beginning of change for Russians.


We truly hope it’s not the beginning of any changes. Ukraine is the brightest example - there was a lot of “beginnings of the changes” - in 2005, in 2014, recently with Zelly at lest. Then quite a few times in between. But all the changes were for the worse and hopes never materialized. Not even once.

And - recent news on corruption front. Navalny’s “anti-corruption foundation” leadership is suspected in USD 30M money laundering.

Overall, I am glad the Russian state is finally starting to deal with this liberal BS. Identities of each participant are being established. And they are dealt with according to the law - and the law catches up to them completely. There were military call evaders, dudes with past due alimony, etc. The biggest underage freedom lovers who break the law are registered as underage offenders, which effectively blocks them way to public University. It’s time to stop playing these freedom games and start enforcing the law.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
True, will be interesting to watch what will happen. Perhaps this is also crushed like the 2012 unrest, but the unrest stays within the people. Always hard to get an autocratic regime out of the way for a democratic government.


Ukraine - an “autocratic regime” got out of the way for a “democratic government” here and there, and each time such transition cost tens of percents of lost GDP, growing poverty and corruption. No thank you.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:09 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Is this the beginning of a more democratic Russia, a more fair Russia, a better Russia for ordinary Russians?


It’s time to understand one simple thing - “more democratic” doesn’t equate “better”. Quite the opposite cases are by far more common. If it becomes “more democratic” (hopefully not) - it certainly will not be any better.

Dutchy wrote:
Let's hope this is the beginning of change for Russians.


We truly hope it’s not the beginning of any changes. Ukraine is the brightest example - there was a lot of “beginnings of the changes” - in 2005, in 2014, recently with Zelly at lest. Then quite a few times in between. But all the changes were for the worse and hopes never materialized. Not even once.

And - recent news on corruption front. Navalny’s “anti-corruption foundation” leadership is suspected in USD 30M money laundering.

Overall, I am glad the Russian state is finally starting to deal with this liberal BS. Identities of each participant are being established. And they are dealt with according to the law - and the law catches up to them completely. There were military call evaders, dudes with past due alimony, etc. The biggest underage freedom lovers who break the law are registered as underage offenders, which effectively blocks them way to public University. It’s time to stop playing these freedom games and start enforcing the law.


Ok, not surprising you pay homage to the way the Putin regime is acting. But let's summarize:
- you are against democracy, so you acknowledge what the Putin regime is doing is undemocratic and you applaud that. The Moscow government can't be democratically elected and needs to be filled with Putin lackeys.
- now liberal democracy, Putin himself is on record saying that he is against it, and now you are saying this, so liberal democracy is out for you
- enforcing the law in Russia is the same as obeying Putin since he is an autocrat and controls the Russian state.
- now there were 15.000 people protesting and at random 1.000 people were arrested, now you say that a few of them were what you say - without any proof if I may add so, either way, it is framing, so at least you disagree with a member whom said they were all paid demonstrators, guess it was removed, don't know why.

If you like living with all these things, why not move to Russia and continue to live in a liberal democracy as the US is or Canada.

BTW whom is "we" in this context?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, not surprising you pay homage to the way the Putin regime is acting. But let's summarize:


Sure, let’s summarize, point by point.

Dutchy wrote:
- you are against democracy, so you acknowledge what the Putin regime is doing is undemocratic and you applaud that. The Moscow government can't be democratically elected and needs to be filled with Putin lackeys.


Just as in any region, Moscow has its own electoral and candidate requirements. One of them - prospective candidate must collect certain number of documented and verifiable signatures. Some were not able to fulfill this requirement of the law, and there were some who were not going to - they needed media image and a scandal - the exact image you are buying onto. This is what they receive “democracy support” grants for (read: your tax money), this is what they are in business of. Their support in Russian society is minuscule, of course, they are nobody and have no name. I am not saying however that such grant-suckers are safe to have in society.

Dutchy wrote:
- now liberal democracy, Putin himself is on record saying that he is against it, and now you are saying this, so liberal democracy is out for you


Each nation and every community has a right to elect their leaders and have a lifestyle, legislature, etc. they like. There may be some nations or territories who are OK with their leaders inheriting their positions - so what? If they do not have any issue with that - why should I?

Dutchy wrote:
- enforcing the law in Russia is the same as obeying Putin since he is an autocrat and controls the Russian state.


Enforcing the law is the same everywhere.

Dutchy wrote:
- now there were 15.000 people protesting and at random 1.000 people were arrested, now you say that a few of them were what you say - without any proof if I may add so, either way, it is framing, so at least you disagree with a member whom said they were all paid demonstrators, guess it was removed, don't know why.


Are you sure you aren’t having an unnecessary zero somewhere? Last demonstration gathered 1500 people or so, while City’s North Caucasian food festival gathered about 200K. This is the level of support in society these things have. Now, 2/3 of those arrested were from other cities of Russia - what do they have to do with Moscow elections? Speaking of arrests - if the law requires you to be arrested for participation in an illegal public event, then you should be arrested for that. There is nothing wrong with this.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW whom is "we" in this context?


We in this context - Russian people, ethnic Russians from neighboring countries (including Eastern Ukraine, which are one nation essentially), and from other parts of the world.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:47 pm

Putins biggest problem is Poland and the Baltics.

With living standard slowly but successfully increases people vote with their feet.

The economy per capita is today 4 times higher per capita in poland then in 1992. In 1992 ukraine had better living standard but choiced model of russia. Today people of ukraine moves to poland and baltics for jobs and to bring home money.

So ukraine choice west.

What happens if ukraine becames over the next 20 years a success story?

Russia has a story of central steering and simple solutions. Oil is perfect fit. To create an export driven service and product economy a new management of russiathat accepts that everything cannot be controlled.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Polish people has stopped leaving, many coming back because the increased standard of living and when they are in age for family.

In poland there is ashortage of people right now and people from ukraine is filling the gaps.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:36 pm

Something that is often missed in uk is a great part of the emmigration from poland and baltics went to scandinavia and germany. Today they get higher salaries in these countries then uk.

In sweden the carpenters have changed and the polish we see now is the ones that stayed. The ones coming for the summer today is from ukraine and lithuania.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:46 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Just as in any region, Moscow has its own electoral and candidate requirements. One of them - prospective candidate must collect certain number of documented and verifiable signatures. Some were not able to fulfill this requirement of the law, and there were some who were not going to - they needed media image and a scandal - the exact image you are buying onto. This is what they receive “democracy support” grants for (read: your tax money), this is what they are in business of. Their support in Russian society is minuscule, of course, they are nobody and have no name. I am not saying however that such grant-suckers are safe to have in society.


No, that's not what you said: "“more democratic” doesn’t equate “better”. Quite the opposite cases are by far more common. If it becomes “more democratic” (hopefully not) - it certainly will not be any better."

So what is it? The first line: “more democratic” doesn’t equate “better” or this bureaucratic crap? With a frame of the opposition? You can't have both.

BTW you are telling liesthe official story here. The story of the candidates is quite different, the correct number of signatures but surprise surprise, all opposite candidates were rejected and non from the Putin party. Whom are you trying to kid here?

anrec80 wrote:
Each nation and every community has a right to elect their leaders and have a lifestyle, legislature, etc. they like. There may be some nations or territories who are OK with their leaders inheriting their positions - so what? If they do not have any issue with that - why should I?


The problem of course, as everyone recognizes it, in a dictator the people have nothing to tell. Of course, Russia isn't a full-blown dictature (yet?), and it is an enlighted dictature, so if the opposition can't be blocked with "normal" practice - blocked by the autocratic media for instance and blocking ways to organize themselves - than result to blocking them to take part in the elections.
You can do a lot, there isn't one size fits all, but human rights must be observed and that is not the case in Russia. Nobody can deny this.

anrec80 wrote:
Enforcing the law is the same everywhere.


The rule of law in Russia isn't the same for everyone, in this case, people are randomly arrested, whether part of the protests or not. In an autocracy, the rule of law is only there to strengthen the position of the ruling class: Putin in this case. Not for everyone. So no, it is evident that your statement is complete and utter bullocks.

anrec80 wrote:
Are you sure you aren’t having an unnecessary zero somewhere? Last demonstration gathered 1500 people or so. This is the level of support in society these things have. Now, 2/3 of those arrested were from other cities of Russia - what do they have to do with Moscow elections? Speaking of arrests - if the law requires you to be arrested for participation in an illegal public event, then you should be arrested for that. There is nothing wrong with this.


I haven't counted them, you haven't counted them, so you are relying - probably - on numbers of the Putin regime, I find the numbers of independent journalist far more reliable, as you should and everyone else. But I gave up hope for you, you are just trolling for Putin.


anrec80 wrote:
We in this context - Russian people, ethnic Russians from neighboring countries (including Eastern Ukraine, which are one nation essentially), and from other parts of the world.


And there you go, you are Russian at heart. And no, Ukraine is and remains a separate country to Russia. Russia should not intervene in Ukraine in any way, not supporting eastern Ukranian rebels, not annexing part of it, nothing. But that is for another thread. We need to stay on topic.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:

No, that's not what you said: "“more democratic” doesn’t equate “better”. Quite the opposite cases are by far more common. If it becomes “more democratic” (hopefully not) - it certainly will not be any better."

So what is it? The first line: “more democratic” doesn’t equate “better” or this bureaucratic crap? With a frame of the opposition? You can't have both.


Ok let me clarify this. What you consider more democratic (and hence better in your view) - isn’t necessarily better for other nation, or even people living in a city nearby. What you are calling “freedom to protest”, in Moscow simply are annoying vast majority of other people, and they do not want to see those things. They determine that it’s better for them to have the laws they have - laws about how to manage and allocate their public space among them.

You may consider these laws “pro-dictator”, but Moscow residents and Russians recognize those as their legitimately passed laws which are to be followed. This is their city, their country and their right how to manage their public resources (such as public space). They will figure it out themselves - who has what rights and where.

We should not point to Russians or some other nation that there are things that should be above their laws. Not only this is plain disrespect to them, but also has dire consequences.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW you are telling liesthe official story here. The story of the candidates is quite different, the correct number of signatures but surprise surprise, all opposite candidates were rejected and non from the Putin party. Whom are you trying to kid here?


See above what I wrote - not every “candidate” out there had actual intent to run. For some - it was a business opportunity to get some of your tax money. Hence they included signatures from those who have been in grave for a while, among other rejected. For them it’s just business, nothing to do with any beliefs or democracy. There are many candidates from many parties, not only “Putin one”. Who genuinely wanted to complete the requirements of the law - had all they needed to do so, and did so.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:59 pm

You realize that poland has got 25 years of incredable growth and russia more or less standing still?

https://financialobserver.eu/poland/pol ... in-europe/

In another generation Poland and Russia will belong to different worlds.

Putin and Russia need to deliver and not only showing military parades.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:01 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW you are telling liesthe official story here. The story of the candidates is quite different, the correct number of signatures but surprise surprise, all opposite candidates were rejected and non from the Putin party. Whom are you trying to kid here?


See above what I wrote - not every “candidate” out there had actual intent to run. For some - it was a business opportunity to get some of your tax money. Hence they included signatures from those who have been in grave for a while, among other rejected. For them it’s just business, nothing to do with any beliefs or democracy. There are many candidates from many parties, not only “Putin one”. Who genuinely wanted to complete the requirements of the law - had all they needed to do so, and did so.


Yup, you are singing the official Putin line, without any link to any independent source. No way to check this, thus this has the same meaning as saying nothing.
But given Putin's way and your clearly Putin biased, I choose to believe whom are proven to be more reliable, independent journalist and then the candidates and then Putin's regime/you, in that order.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The problem of course, as everyone recognizes it, in a dictator the people have nothing to tell. Of course, Russia isn't a full-blown dictature (yet?), and it is an enlighted dictature, so if the opposition can't be blocked with "normal" practice - blocked by the autocratic media for instance and blocking ways to organize themselves - than result to blocking them to take part in the elections.


Why do you think there is a problem anywhere here? How is their state organized, how their leader is called - be it a “dictator”, “Czar”, “Emperor”, what authority do they have - it’s up to Russian citizens. They don’t see any problem anywhere - we have no reason to have any either. Nobody in Russia asks you to “liberate” anyone there. Speaking of organizing themselves - there are laws that govern use of public spaces, just as in any other city. All that’s needed is to follow them. Nobody blocks anyone.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:07 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No, that's not what you said: "“more democratic” doesn’t equate “better”. Quite the opposite cases are by far more common. If it becomes “more democratic” (hopefully not) - it certainly will not be any better."

So what is it? The first line: “more democratic” doesn’t equate “better” or this bureaucratic crap? With a frame of the opposition? You can't have both.


Ok let me clarify this. What you consider more democratic (and hence better in your view) - isn’t necessarily better for other nation, or even people living in a city nearby. What you are calling “freedom to protest”, in Moscow simply are annoying vast majority of other people, and they do not want to see those things. They determine that it’s better for them to have the laws they have - laws about how to manage and allocate their public space among them.

You may consider these laws “pro-dictator”, but Moscow residents and Russians recognize those as their legitimately passed laws which are to be followed. This is their city, their country and their right how to manage their public resources (such as public space). They will figure it out themselves - who has what rights and where.

We should not point to Russians or some other nation that there are things that should be above their laws. Not only this is plain disrespect to them, but also has dire consequences.


You claim to life and work in the west, enjoying the freedom there. You claim to be eastern Ukraine, which you consider Russian. If you feel that the human right to protest can be waved away, together with the right to choose someone freely and a few others, and replaced with a semi-dictature of the majority - in reality, what Putin wants, is what Putin gets - what are you doing in the west. If Russia is such a paradise for you, why not go to your utopia? With your views, they will welcome you with open arms. Don't know what your trade is, but it should be no problem to find a well paying job, the economy is doing fantastic according to you.

BTW "legitimately" is the issue of course in an enlightened dictature.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:09 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The problem of course, as everyone recognizes it, in a dictator the people have nothing to tell. Of course, Russia isn't a full-blown dictature (yet?), and it is an enlighted dictature, so if the opposition can't be blocked with "normal" practice - blocked by the autocratic media for instance and blocking ways to organize themselves - than result to blocking them to take part in the elections.


Why do you think there is a problem anywhere here? How is their state organized, how their leader is called - be it a “dictator”, “Czar”, “Emperor”, what authority do they have - it’s up to Russian citizens. They don’t see any problem anywhere - we have no reason to have any either. Nobody in Russia asks you to “liberate” anyone there. Speaking of organizing themselves - there are laws that govern use of public spaces, just as in any other city. All that’s needed is to follow them. Nobody blocks anyone.


:roll: again your claims aren't founded in reality. And "it’s up to Russian citizens" is utter nonsense, it should be like that, but with all the manipulations etc. it is up to the autocrat, not to the people themselves.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yup, you are singing the official Putin line, without any link to any independent source. No way to check this, thus this has the same meaning as saying nothing.
But given Putin's way and your clearly Putin biased, I choose to believe whom are proven to be more reliable, independent journalist and then the candidates and then Putin's regime/you, in that order.


If you want some numbers - there were 188 independent candidates (not members of any major party), and only 39 rejections. Hence what I said - everyone who wanted to accomplish the requirements, did so.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
:roll: again your claims aren't founded in reality. And "it’s up to Russian citizens" is utter nonsense, it should be like that, but with all the manipulations etc. it is up to the autocrat, not to the people themselves.


Then who should determine how Russians should organize their society in Russia? Some “human rights advocates”? Some “civil society”? Russian state, just as any other, has its own institutions and procedures, and overwhelming majority of citizens believes in their legitimacy. That includes determining who runs their country, their cities, etc. The belief of citizens themselves here is the most important. That is their country after all.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:21 pm

olle wrote:
In another generation Poland and Russia will belong to different worlds.

Putin and Russia need to deliver and not only showing military parades.


Putin delivers one simple thing to Russians - ability and opportunities to live and work in their country, and for their country. Unlike most Eastern European “new democracies”. Russians don’t en-masse travel around Europe doing random low key jobs, unlike Eastern Europeans.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If you feel that the human right to protest can be waved away, together with the right to choose someone freely and a few others, and replaced with a semi-dictature of the majority - in reality, what Putin wants, is what Putin gets - what are you doing in the west.


Who is waving away whose rights? Just as in any city, there is legislature and procedures around proper organization of protests, among others. All it takes is to follow them, and you will have a safe and legitimate event.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BTW "legitimately" is the issue of course in an enlightened dictature.


No. Legitimacy is the issue of any state, in any social group of people living on certain territory. And even more than anywhere in representative democracy. Be it Russia or Netherlands. The key is:
a) people appoint those who runs their society (presidents, parliaments, etc.) via procedures and processes viewed as legitimate by overwhelming majority of members in the society. Be it elections, inheritance, lottery - it’s up to the people living in that society, and not outside of it.
b) same as above - decisions made by by people appointed via those processes viewed as legitimate and necessary to abide by overwhelming majority of society’s members.

What exactly are those rules, procedures, restrictions, etc. - it’s again up to the society. You in Netherlands may believe in absolute free access of every candidate to election - that’s OK. In some other nations there are some other legal requirements, and that’s OK too, as long as the society as the whole accepts it. In Russia, this is the case. I’ll even go further - if people of some other society (a region or a country) overwhelmingly want to have some other restrictions, such as educational or property qualifications - I’ll have no reason to have issues with that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yup, you are singing the official Putin line, without any link to any independent source. No way to check this, thus this has the same meaning as saying nothing.
But given Putin's way and your clearly Putin biased, I choose to believe whom are proven to be more reliable, independent journalist and then the candidates and then Putin's regime/you, in that order.


If you want some numbers - there were 188 independent candidates (not members of any major party), and only 39 rejections. Hence what I said - everyone who wanted to accomplish the requirements, did so.


Link, back up your story, like I said I have very little faith in everything you say because you do the Putin party line, sorry.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:48 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:roll: again your claims aren't founded in reality. And "it’s up to Russian citizens" is utter nonsense, it should be like that, but with all the manipulations etc. it is up to the autocrat, not to the people themselves.


Then who should determine how Russians should organize their society in Russia? Some “human rights advocates”? Some “civil society”? Russian state, just as any other, has its own institutions and procedures, and overwhelming majority of citizens believes in their legitimacy. That includes determining who runs their country, their cities, etc. The belief of citizens themselves here is the most important. That is their country after all.


In a free society, I agree with you 100%. Russia isn't a free country, so there is your problem and therefore falls your train of thought.

But there is the main difference between your Putin line and me (and others), you regard Russia as a completely free society with the will of the people reign supreme, I regard it as an enlightened dictatorship. The problem of course is that your version of the Putin truth isn't backed-up by anyone.

These problems in Moscow are just the lastest in many incidents where the opposition is being hindered by the powers and yes, each and every time it will be pointed out. I understand that it is painful for you, because you feel Russian, even though you say you are a citizen of Ukraine, but there it is, the truth will be said.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
Be it Russia or Netherlands.


An old Soviet trick: whataboutism. Let us be clear and frank: Russia and the Netherlands are not the same. The Netherlands is a full democracy and Russia is an enlightened dictatorship.

In the Netherlands you can protest anytime you like, in Russia you can't as we have seen here. In the Netherlands everyone can participate in our democracy and stand for office - the rules are upheld by a truly independent office - in Russia you can't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you feel that the human right to protest can be waved away, together with the right to choose someone freely and a few others, and replaced with a semi-dictature of the majority - in reality, what Putin wants, is what Putin gets - what are you doing in the west.


Who is waving away whose rights? Just as in any city, there is legislature and procedures around proper organization of protests, among others. All it takes is to follow them, and you will have a safe and legitimate event.


Nope, not in Moscow, Putin's Russia. One of the organizers went over to talk to the authorities and was arrested when he would not play ball, mind you the only thing he did was disagree with the authorities in a meeting. So there you go, your statement is false.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Nope, not in Moscow, Putin's Russia. One of the organizers went over to talk to the authorities and was arrested when he would not play ball, mind you the only thing he did was disagree with the authorities in a meeting. So there you go, your statement is false.


Interesting development - can we have a link please? I want to know the full picture. A possibility - he was arrested for calls to illegal public event.l, among other things.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:17 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, not in Moscow, Putin's Russia. One of the organizers went over to talk to the authorities and was arrested when he would not play ball, mind you the only thing he did was disagree with the authorities in a meeting. So there you go, your statement is false.


Interesting development - can we have a link please? I want to know the full picture. A possibility - he was arrested for calls to illegal public event.l, among other things.


Would you provide your links first before calling others to do that? You have been ignoring my request and you have been claiming a lot of things. Thanks for proving all your claims.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
THS214
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:53 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yup, you are singing the official Putin line, without any link to any independent source. No way to check this, thus this has the same meaning as saying nothing.
But given Putin's way and your clearly Putin biased, I choose to believe whom are proven to be more reliable, independent journalist and then the candidates and then Putin's regime/you, in that order.


If you want some numbers - there were 188 independent candidates (not members of any major party), and only 39 rejections. Hence what I said - everyone who wanted to accomplish the requirements, did so.


20% rejection rate and you say only. WOW. I don't know how it works in Russia, but in Finland rejection rate of 0,02% would raise eyebrows.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am

THS214 wrote:

20% rejection rate and you say only. WOW. I don't know how it works in Russia, but in Finland rejection rate of 0,02% would raise eyebrows.


Those who fulfilled the law requirements - were registered. Those who did not - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - certain number of signatures of prospective voters, with their identities verifiable. Those rejected at best weren’t able to gather the signatures required. Some took too many shortcuts, and some outright “signed” for people who are dead. This wasn’t to be expected to work obviously. Next time more of them will do the proper work.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

20% rejection rate and you say only. WOW. I don't know how it works in Russia, but in Finland rejection rate of 0,02% would raise eyebrows.


Those who fulfilled the law requirements - were registered. Those who did not - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - certain number of signatures of prospective voters, with their identities verifiable. Those rejected at best weren’t able to gather the signatures required. Some took too many shortcuts, and some outright “signed” for people who are dead. This wasn’t to be expected to work obviously. Next time more of them will do the proper work.


Since you were so keen to have proof, perhaps this time you could provide us with any. Or is this just from the local council, which we know we can't trust in an autocratic regime and therefore your whole statement is to be taken with a grain of salt?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:37 am

What is missing in the discussion is that Putin want to show the world that Russia is still democratic. But anyone that could create problem for him is now living undermlifthreat, is already dead etc.

The new scheme is by byrocratic mess disqualify the opposition.

Until now Putin and his political supporters has felt safe that Russian people was going to vote correct anyway.

Todays Duma becomes a copy of 1905s Duma and Putin become more and more similar to a Tsar.


The russian people did not like it 1917 nor 1992.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:28 am

anrec80 wrote:

Putin delivers one simple thing to Russians - ability and opportunities to live and work in their country, and for their country. Unlike most Eastern European “new democracies”. Russians don’t en-masse travel around Europe doing random low key jobs, unlike Eastern Europeans.


You make it sound like a bad thing people have the opportunity to travel through dozens of different countries and work where they please. Most are not "random low key jobs". Many are well educated and filing positions other countries need, because you know those countries have economic growth.

Yes in some countries this caused some issues, but those countries are now hugely benefiting from being part of the EU. Poland has already been used as an example. Young people are now staying because their economy has grown.

Russia is neither giving people the opportunity they need to earn nor has a growing economy.

It isn't a democracy, but neither is China. The difference is, China's economy is booming and with the exception of those who work in factorys, most middle classes are rapidly rising in terms of spending power and influence. In Russia that is reserved for those who are friends with, do business with, or are forced to by the Govenment.
 
alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:04 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Those who fulfilled the law requirements - were registered. Those who did not - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - certain number of signatures of prospective voters, with their identities verifiable. Those rejected at best weren’t able to gather the signatures required. Some took too many shortcuts, and some outright “signed” for people who are dead. This wasn’t to be expected to work obviously. Next time more of them will do the proper work.


Those who kowtow to Putin and pose no electoral threat to him - were registered. Those who were real opposition candidates - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - to be no true opposition and not be viable candidates.. Those rejected at best weren’t approved of by the regime. Some took too many positions demanding free elections, and some outright were willing to stand up to Putin's autocracy. This was unacceptable to little Putin obviously. Next time nothing will change, until Putin and his cronies are gone.

That is what you should have written.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:12 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Putin delivers one simple thing to Russians - ability and opportunities to live and work in their country, and for their country. Unlike most Eastern European “new democracies”. Russians don’t en-masse travel around Europe doing random low key jobs, unlike Eastern Europeans.


You make it sound like a bad thing people have the opportunity to travel through dozens of different countries and work where they please. Most are not "random low key jobs". Many are well educated and filing positions other countries need, because you know those countries have economic growth.

Yes in some countries this caused some issues, but those countries are now hugely benefiting from being part of the EU. Poland has already been used as an example. Young people are now staying because their economy has grown.

Russia is neither giving people the opportunity they need to earn nor has a growing economy.

It isn't a democracy, but neither is China. The difference is, China's economy is booming and with the exception of those who work in factorys, most middle classes are rapidly rising in terms of spending power and influence. In Russia that is reserved for those who are friends with, do business with, or are forced to by the Govenment.


If you're a loser, you are nomatter where you are.

Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada.

I wouldn't talk of Poland as a powerhouse either...its like saying Crimea is awesome because in 5 years everything has gone up. Well yeah, throw enough money into it and it will.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
THS214
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:44 pm

anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

20% rejection rate and you say only. WOW. I don't know how it works in Russia, but in Finland rejection rate of 0,02% would raise eyebrows.


Those who fulfilled the law requirements - were registered. Those who did not - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - certain number of signatures of prospective voters, with their identities verifiable. Those rejected at best weren’t able to gather the signatures required. Some took too many shortcuts, and some outright “signed” for people who are dead. This wasn’t to be expected to work obviously. Next time more of them will do the proper work.


If that is true, and i don't doubt it, the moral compass is lost in Russia. If the numbers are that high then it happens on both sides.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:03 pm

THS214 wrote:

If that is true, and i don't doubt it, the moral compass is lost in Russia. If the numbers are that high then it happens on both sides.


The state cannot set the law aside and just follow “moral compass”. Unlike West, Russia’s legislature and practices aren’t yet that stable. Many of those laws are new, and not all candidates yet know the full set of requirements and how to comply.

Speaking of “moral compass” - ok. Yes, there are issue with that when candidates include “dead souls” into the list - every adult must know that these are public records. And when instead of better preparing for the next election cycle, these candidates are organizing illegal protests, setting their supporters up for jail terms - there isn’t any notion of “moral compass” at all.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:

An old Soviet trick: whataboutism. Let us be clear and frank: Russia and the Netherlands are not the same. The Netherlands is a full democracy and Russia is an enlightened dictatorship.

In the Netherlands you can protest anytime you like, in Russia you can't as we have seen here. In the Netherlands everyone can participate in our democracy and stand for office - the rules are upheld by a truly independent office - in Russia you can't.


There is no whataboutism anywhere here. Both Russia and Netherlands are states with people living in them. Dutch people wanted to be governed by one set of processes and laws they consider legitimate, Russians want to be governed by another. That also include who’s their leadership and what authorities they have. This is normal, there is nothing wrong with this.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:12 pm

THS214 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
20% rejection rate and you say only. WOW. I don't know how it works in Russia, but in Finland rejection rate of 0,02% would raise eyebrows.

Those who fulfilled the law requirements - were registered. Those who did not - were not. This is normal. One of the requirements to run - certain number of signatures of prospective voters, with their identities verifiable. Those rejected at best weren’t able to gather the signatures required. Some took too many shortcuts, and some outright “signed” for people who are dead. This wasn’t to be expected to work obviously. Next time more of them will do the proper work.

If that is true, and i don't doubt it, the moral compass is lost in Russia. If the numbers are that high then it happens on both sides.


Doubt it. Like any other autocratic state - where the the machinations of the "election commission" are controlled by the party in power, finding "irregularities" in signatures is a common way of keeping opponents of the ballots.

Nobody in their right mind would claim that Russia was dedicated to a "democratic process"... and "moral compass" is not a part of Putin's politics.

[i][i]"The Moscow elections commission last month refused to register 19 candidates, including several well-known opposition figures, because of alleged signature irregularities on their nominating petitions."[/i][/i]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... edirect=on
.

[i]"Authorities say opposition candidates failed to collect enough genuine signatures to register. The excluded candidates say that is a lie and insist on taking part in a contest they believe they could win. “They (the authorities) are wiping their feet on us,” said Elena, a student attending Saturday’s protest. Another attendee, Yevgeny Snetkov, a 61-year-old engineer, described as brazen the way the authorities had prevented opposition candidates from running. « I had no option left but to protest, » he said.

Some protesters chanted “Putin is a thief” as they marched."
[/i]


https://www.france24.com/en/20190803-ru ... -elections
.

Tellingly, the crackdown included a move to shutdown an anti-corruption organization looking into Putin and his cronies. That continues their efforts to silence critics - especially critics who might be seen as interrupting their cozy little money-making operations.

"After years of denouncing Mr. Navalny and like-minded Russians as a “nonsystem opposition” bent on overturning Russia’s established order, the Kremlin has prompted fury by making it impossible for them to enter the political system."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/worl ... ption.html
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
Posts: 1976
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
These problems in Moscow are just the lastest in many incidents where the opposition is being hindered by the powers and yes, each and every time it will be pointed out. I understand that it is painful for you, because you feel Russian, even though you say you are a citizen of Ukraine, but there it is, the truth will be said.


If you want me to tell you where here the problem is - sure. There is a reason why I put expressions “civil society”, “human rights advocates” and the likes in quotations. As everyone knows - those “pointing out” and “telling the truth” are being funded from Western sources, and their electoral support is in 1% range. That simply means that 99% Russians aren’t asking you to “point out” anything and “tell the truth”. Expectedly they are treating that as meddling with their affairs - something you don’t quite like. How about pulling their funding off to begin with?
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:45 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
You make it sound like a bad thing people have the opportunity to travel through dozens of different countries and work where they please. Most are not "random low key jobs". Many are well educated and filing positions other countries need, because you know those countries have economic growth.


I never said that freedom of movement and employment is bad. Yes, some Eastern Europeans migrating to Western countries are well educated and are taking on higher skill positions. But nonetheless, things similar to an example given above (Polish carpenters in Sweden) became appellant in many Western European countries. It’s great for Poland that migration outflows have stabilized, though there are too many of them left. Baltic states simply suffered tragedy - population decline in 30% range. Most of those people went to Britain, and this led to Brexit eventually - locals don’t always accept such overmigration.

Reinhardt wrote:
Yes in some countries this caused some issues, but those countries are now hugely benefiting from being part of the EU. Poland has already been used as an example. Young people are now staying because their economy has grown.


The question “what’s in stock for these nations?” remains. So far, the West sucked in a lot of their workforce. When they were being accepted into the EU, Germany and France did not and will not let them grow high-tech competitors to the likes of Siemens, Snecma, Rolls Royce, Alsom. Yes, they do have some industry and even tech, but they are destination for outsourcing of back-of-the-back operations, and not an attractive destinations to place key business units. Will they ever be? Who knows. But France, Germany, UK will not let that happen easily, obviously.


Reinhardt wrote:
Russia is neither giving people the opportunity they need to earn nor has a growing economy.


Russia is managing its economy well. Yes, in absolute numbers growth is lower, but they are doing excellent job in restructuring their economy so that it isn’t dependent upon all those sanctions and trade wars. Slowdown during such transitions is unavoidable. In response to those shocks, Russia enacted massive import replacement program and agricultural development, and they show growth 5-6% in those areas. As the result, Russia is becoming a high tech and industrial power fast. And Russians do not flee Russia in millions, as it happened (and still happens) in many Eastern European nations. Russia is attractive to a lot of immigrants as well - it’s second after USA by the number of attracted migrants. Statements that in Russia there are no opportunities are far from truth. Yes, some inflows and outflows are normal and even great, but not in millions.

Reinhardt wrote:
It isn't a democracy, but neither is China. The difference is, China's economy is booming and with the exception of those who work in factorys, most middle classes are rapidly rising in terms of spending power and influence. In Russia that is reserved for those who are friends with, do business with, or are forced to by the Govenment.

China is yet to realize the need and go through their economy restructuring so that it’s less dependent upon foreign markets, and also less prone to trade wars and sanctions. Russia simply bumped into those shocks earlier.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Doubt it. Like any other autocratic state - where the the machinations of the "election commission" are controlled by the party in power, finding "irregularities" in signatures is a common way of keeping opponents of the ballots.

Nobody in their right mind would claim that Russia was dedicated to a "democratic process"... and "moral compass" is not a part of Putin's politics.

[i][i]"The Moscow elections commission last month refused to register 19 candidates, including several well-known opposition figures, because of alleged signature irregularities on their nominating petitions."[/i][/i]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... edirect=on
.

[i]"Authorities say opposition candidates failed to collect enough genuine signatures to register. The excluded candidates say that is a lie and insist on taking part in a contest they believe they could win. “They (the authorities) are wiping their feet on us,” said Elena, a student attending Saturday’s protest. Another attendee, Yevgeny Snetkov, a 61-year-old engineer, described as brazen the way the authorities had prevented opposition candidates from running. « I had no option left but to protest, » he said.

Some protesters chanted “Putin is a thief” as they marched."
[/i]


https://www.france24.com/en/20190803-ru ... -elections
.

Tellingly, the crackdown included a move to shutdown an anti-corruption organization looking into Putin and his cronies. That continues their efforts to silence critics - especially critics who might be seen as interrupting their cozy little money-making operations.

"After years of denouncing Mr. Navalny and like-minded Russians as a “nonsystem opposition” bent on overturning Russia’s established order, the Kremlin has prompted fury by making it impossible for them to enter the political system."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/worl ... ption.html


Whoops, that is quite a different picture than our resident Putin defenders, A101 and Tu204, are painting, however, it does have the benefit that it fits a pattern that is being painted about Russia by verious independent NGO's.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:06 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
These problems in Moscow are just the lastest in many incidents where the opposition is being hindered by the powers and yes, each and every time it will be pointed out. I understand that it is painful for you, because you feel Russian, even though you say you are a citizen of Ukraine, but there it is, the truth will be said.


If you want me to tell you where here the problem is - sure. There is a reason why I put expressions “civil society”, “human rights advocates” and the likes in quotations. As everyone knows - those “pointing out” and “telling the truth” are being funded from Western sources, and their electoral support is in 1% range. That simply means that 99% Russians aren’t asking you to “point out” anything and “tell the truth”. Expectedly they are treating that as meddling with their affairs - something you don’t quite like. How about pulling their funding off to begin with?


Would you mind backing that up with a credible link from a source we can trust? And a friendly reminder that you haven't backed up any of your claims on this thread, so if you are busy collecting the source for the 99%, you might want to put a little effort in the rest. It has the benefit for you that you will not easily be painted like a Putin Troll and tell me you would like that as would I since I would learn something instead of just reading all the different accounts of the democracy failing in Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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