anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
:roll: Moldovia, Ukraine all part of Europe. Sending its troll army to persuade the European public opinion. Backing certain extreme right parties within the EU. Do you want me to continue?


Moldova and Ukraine must themselves decide what they want to be a part of, without European tales and meddling a-la Maidan. And Ukraine and Moldova are not part of Europe, no. And will not be. Your own parliament amended EU-Ukraine deal as "not paving for Ukraine a way to join EU". EU said that explicitly - "no expansion plans". Right parties - interesting, I know only of a small bank loan to Marine Le Pen. Also yes, please continue.
 
alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:30 pm

anrec80 wrote:
What's inevitable eventually - is that Ukraine's neighbors (Russia and EU) gather at the table to decide what to do with all that, and if they can reach any agreement (similar to a recent one on Moldova). It very well may end that each Ukraine's neighbor will pick up regions of the country they are interested in - Hungary, Poland, Romania, Russia each have their minorities there.


That is a perfect example of Russia's mentality towards independent countries: that Russia, with or without the cooperation of other nation states, should determine the future of another independent nation. It is not the role of another "neighbor" to pick up regions of another country... but LiliPutin and his cronies can't fathom that.

Western nations seek to respect the independence of nations - Russia, under Putin - clearly doesn't. In that area, you have represented him well.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:

A clarification question, what is non-systemic opposition?


Opposition not present in parliament. These "independent" candidates being among them.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:42 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:roll: Moldovia, Ukraine all part of Europe. Sending its troll army to persuade the European public opinion. Backing certain extreme right parties within the EU. Do you want me to continue?


Moldova and Ukraine must themselves decide what they want to be a part of, without European tales and meddling a-la Maidan. And Ukraine and Moldova are not part of Europe, no. And will not be. Your own parliament amended EU-Ukraine deal as "not paving for Ukraine a way to join EU". EU said that explicitly - "no expansion plans". Right parties - interesting, I know only of a small bank loan to Marine Le Pen. Also yes, please continue.


yes, I agree, Moldovia, Georgia and Ukraine have absolute the right to do as they please, within international law of course, so that means you disagree with the Putins regime attitude towards these nations, interesting.

I said Europe, not EU. And I will continue if you answer all my questions. Quit pro quo.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:47 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

A clarification question, what is non-systemic opposition?


Opposition not present in parliament. These "independent" candidates being among them.


Then tell me, how come Russia is ranked 149th in the 2019 World Press Freedom Index? source

That is your problem, everything nice you want to say about Russia is met with reality.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:49 pm

We'll see on Saturday if they will protest again and if they are granted a permit or if the Putin regime declines it again.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Link please to the deal struck in Moldovia, can't seem to find it.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/wh ... -about-it/

Here is one bit, what role Plahotniuc played, and some bits on how he was removed. Then there is detailed Russian side, by Russian Vice PM Kozak:
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3998481

The most interesting bit here is this:
- The issue of resolving the Transnistrian conflict, especially the federalization of Moldova, was not discussed with any of the political parties. Obviously, in the current environment, this is harmful and pointless. On June 3, at the end of the meeting with representatives of the Democratic Party, Mr. Plahotniuc, in the presence of his comrades-in-arms, conveyed proposals on the conditions for creating a coalition with the Party of Socialists.
Russia and the European Union have decided who is in power for them in Moldova

After reviewing the contents of the envelope, we were surprised to see the proposals of the openly anti-Russian Democratic Party on a radical change in Moldova’s foreign policy with a reorientation towards Russia and on the settlement of the Transnistrian conflict based on the federalization of Moldova. As you can see, this is the idea of ​​the Democratic Party. Nevertheless, we strongly recommended that the Party of Socialists and the president not even consider any secret proposals from either Vladimir Plahotniuc or other parties. A coalition can only be formed on the basis of official public party decisions.


Here is your "greedy and aggressive" Russia. Moldova was essentially brought to them on a golden plate. And no, they did not take it. I don't know if it indeed happened, but very likely. Yes, Oligarchs are like this - today they are pro-Western, and tomorrow they are pro-something-else, if the latter means more chance for them to save their capital and continue to rob their country.

So, now without Oligarch, Moldova got another chance to figure out what it wants to do next. Let's see how they will manage.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Then tell me, how come Russia is ranked 149th in the 2019 World Press Freedom Index? source


Who and how computes those indexes, I don't know. And don't care really. In Russia there are no prohibited media, unlike in some "democratic" countries.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:09 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Then tell me, how come Russia is ranked 149th in the 2019 World Press Freedom Index? source


Who and how computes those indexes, I don't know. And don't care really. In Russia there are no prohibited media, unlike in some "democratic" countries.



Nice answer, if you don't like the outcome of an independent research NGO, just say, I don't care so you do not have to deal with it.

And perhaps no prohibited media, but definitely murdered journalist. So the 149th place is well deserved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:25 pm

alfa164 wrote:
That is a perfect example of Russia's mentality towards independent countries: that Russia, with or without the cooperation of other nation states, should determine the future of another independent nation. It is not the role of another "neighbor" to pick up regions of another country... but LiliPutin and his cronies can't fathom that.


In order for that to be true, there actually has to be an independent nation on the territory in question. The term "nation" has many piece in it - besides territory and people, there has to be economy, and many other state institutions, such as law enforcement, military, border control, etc. Government needs to have sufficient control over the territory, and it must be clear who is responsible for what and who controls what. Today in Ukraine, all of those are degrading very fast. You soon will get to a point that all that is present there is some gangs with Nazi ideology who de-facto replaced institutions (and they will have to have some primitive ideology to claim to be an "institution" - they won't just say "we gathered into a gang to rob", will they?), some nominal government in Kiev, and poor destitute people who could use any sorts of help.

If now all you have is just a stream of poor earners, later you will have streams of all other sorts coming from that territory - gangs, criminals, human trafficking, prostitutes, drugs, migrants from all over. Even now in Russia they catch gangs who "came to provide force support to protesters in Moscow", in Belarus here and there they stop buses of strong men with baseball bats who can't explain reasons for their visit (and baseball isn't popular in Belarus to that point). It already creates problems. If these problems keep increasing - there won't be anyone to talk to about them in Kiev, and the neighbors will inevitably sit down to discuss what to do with all this.

Russia at present doesn't do anything there and naturally tries to minimize dependency upon anything there, including gas pipelines.

alfa164 wrote:
Western nations seek to respect the independence of nations - Russia, under Putin - clearly doesn't. In that area, you have represented him well.


Western countries should first stop sticking in where they are not invited - be it support of armed coups, mass protests breaking the laws, wars and such. Then expect something from someone else.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nice answer, if you don't like the outcome of an independent research NGO, just say, I don't care so you do not have to deal with it.

And perhaps no prohibited media, but definitely murdered journalist. So the 149th place is well deserved.


You already know my view on these "independent NGOs". What admire here the most is Ukraine where quite a few journalists were killed, the murderers are known and walking free, and they are still well above Russia. I am not even talking about TV stations in Kiev being shot at from grenade launchers, and media being prohibited. Not the best of examples obviously.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We'll see on Saturday if they will protest again and if they are granted a permit or if the Putin regime declines it again.


These are solely Moscow municipal things. Putin doesn't manage those and has nothing to do with them.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I said Europe, not EU. And I will continue if you answer all my questions. Quit pro quo.


Geographically - they are Europe, yes, just as Russia. In any other sense - nobody is eager to see them there.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You are barking up the wrong tree, I don't know what opportunities Tu204 is talking about, it was his claim, not mine.

You questioned what opportunities are there in Canada, hence I am just trying to shed some light on the matter.

Dutchy wrote:
But since you seem to have the same train of thought, you might want to tell us all, why you aren't living in Russia - so you say - but in NYC - so you say, if opportunities are so great in Russia. But more importantly, could you expend your anecdotical evidence with some real numbers from an unbiased source, Tu204 couldn't, so perhaps you can? Looking forward to it.


For now, I am settled here in NYC, but perfectly open to an opportunity in Russia should the right one comes along. But a friend of mine went to Russia to enhance his Canadian Master's degree in urban planning. Apparently they aren't afraid of the "regime".
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:42 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I said Europe, not EU. And I will continue if you answer all my questions. Quit pro quo.


Geographically - they are Europe, yes, just as Russia. In any other sense - nobody is eager to see them there.


Most of Russia is outside of Europe. As for the rest? What do you mean? Seriously. They are in Europe whether you like it or not.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:45 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You are barking up the wrong tree, I don't know what opportunities Tu204 is talking about, it was his claim, not mine.

You questioned what opportunities are there in Canada, hence I am just trying to shed some light on the matter.

Dutchy wrote:
But since you seem to have the same train of thought, you might want to tell us all, why you aren't living in Russia - so you say - but in NYC - so you say, if opportunities are so great in Russia. But more importantly, could you expend your anecdotical evidence with some real numbers from an unbiased source, Tu204 couldn't, so perhaps you can? Looking forward to it.


For now, I am settled here in NYC, but perfectly open to an opportunity in Russia should the right one comes along. But a friend of mine went to Russia to enhance his Canadian Master's degree in urban planning. Apparently they aren't afraid of the "regime".


You've got to learn to read, man. I questioned tu204's statement, nothing more, his statement his to prove, or yours if you wish. Since neither of you can, I will put it in the box bullocks, yet again.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:46 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We'll see on Saturday if they will protest again and if they are granted a permit or if the Putin regime declines it again.


These are solely Moscow municipal things. Putin doesn't manage those and has nothing to do with them.


Autocracy --> everything that concerns public bodies is under Putin's control. And he will have a keen interest in what happens in the capital or another major city. If change comes from somewhere, it will probably come from the intellectuals gathered in major cities.

And as demonstrated, in at least two other cities there ware protests, so not only a Moscow thing anymore.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:50 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nice answer, if you don't like the outcome of an independent research NGO, just say, I don't care so you do not have to deal with it.

And perhaps no prohibited media, but definitely murdered journalist. So the 149th place is well deserved.


You already know my view on these "independent NGOs". What admire here the most is Ukraine where quite a few journalists were killed, the murderers are known and walking free, and they are still well above Russia. I am not even talking about TV stations in Kiev being shot at from grenade launchers, and media being prohibited. Not the best of examples obviously.


Yes I know, if NGO's don't support your views and you have strong pro-Putin regime views so that is often the case - then you do not believe them. So that is not a view it is more a religion for you.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:53 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Link please to the deal struck in Moldovia, can't seem to find it.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/wh ... -about-it/

Here is one bit, what role Plahotniuc played, and some bits on how he was removed. Then there is detailed Russian side, by Russian Vice PM Kozak:
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3998481

The most interesting bit here is this:
- The issue of resolving the Transnistrian conflict, especially the federalization of Moldova, was not discussed with any of the political parties. Obviously, in the current environment, this is harmful and pointless. On June 3, at the end of the meeting with representatives of the Democratic Party, Mr. Plahotniuc, in the presence of his comrades-in-arms, conveyed proposals on the conditions for creating a coalition with the Party of Socialists.
Russia and the European Union have decided who is in power for them in Moldova

After reviewing the contents of the envelope, we were surprised to see the proposals of the openly anti-Russian Democratic Party on a radical change in Moldova’s foreign policy with a reorientation towards Russia and on the settlement of the Transnistrian conflict based on the federalization of Moldova. As you can see, this is the idea of ​​the Democratic Party. Nevertheless, we strongly recommended that the Party of Socialists and the president not even consider any secret proposals from either Vladimir Plahotniuc or other parties. A coalition can only be formed on the basis of official public party decisions.


Here is your "greedy and aggressive" Russia. Moldova was essentially brought to them on a golden plate. And no, they did not take it. I don't know if it indeed happened, but very likely. Yes, Oligarchs are like this - today they are pro-Western, and tomorrow they are pro-something-else, if the latter means more chance for them to save their capital and continue to rob their country.

So, now without Oligarch, Moldova got another chance to figure out what it wants to do next. Let's see how they will manage.



Ah ok, this was about the two government thing and Russia and the EU chose the same side. It iis basically nothing and certainly not what you frame it to be. That's why always want some link with your statements because they need to be checked, you can't be trusted with facts as is again apparent in this "contribution".
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If anything it should have been harsher and when the Putin regime did destabilize Georgia.


Georgia is a done deal. Everyone de-facto accepted Saakashvili as the aggressor in that case, and Russian response as legitimate. I'll remind you again, this was the response to military attack on Russian peacekeepers who were there based on U.N. sanction, and upon agreement of Georgia itself. Saakashvili got his assessment from Georgian - he was kicked out of the country and deprived of its citizenship.

Dutchy wrote:
They have no support from Russian state media, that is the propaganda channel of the Putin regime. If you mean by Pro-western: a pro-democratic, pro-fair, pro-rule of law and anti-corruption, anti-autocratic and anti-war-like mentality than ok, it is a pro-western stand.


Let me tell you what "pro-Western" is being associated with outside of the West: it's support of law violations, internal affairs meddling, support of armed coups, covering up war crimes - all under "pro-freedom" and "anti-corruption" rhethoric. Destroying economy (via "institutions" like IMF mostly) is also worth noting.

Dutchy wrote:
That is indeed the most unfortunate consequence, but what to do, have no criticism on the Putin regime at all? Just let him destabilize other countries, invade and annex them at will, shoot down airliners and say nothing?


So what now - meddle with internal affairs? Call to violate the law? Support armed coups?

Now let's imagine what if Russian liberal idiots who yell "we are the power here!" actually do attempt to capture, say, Kremlin President's residency and some other, just as big idiot in Dutch embassy (or even Dutch Foreign Affairs Dept.) tweets something like "Yes! I admire! let's fight this regime!"? Do you understand what will this be, and what's next in stock? Dutch diplomacy (as is most European) is far from wise and is perfectly capable for such stupidity. Well, this then will be a state-sponsored coup attempt, a casus belli - something to which military response is possible. Let me remind you Russian nuclear doctrine - "nuclear arms can be engaged if the very existence of Russian state is under threat" (which is precisely the case with an armed coup). And it very well may be that there will be nobody left to bring an apology the next morning, and that idiot will be called into Russian MFA to be said "please feel free to stay here now, your country is no more as of 6AM this morning".

So you can criticize, but together with that if you are not sure your diplomatic stuff know their limits, better don't.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes I know, if NGO's don't support your views and you have strong pro-Putin regime views so that is often the case - then you do not believe them. So that is not a view it is more a religion for you.


There is nothing called an "independent NGO". NGOs always support the views of their clients, donors, grantors, sponsors, etc. Whatever they are.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:

And as demonstrated, in at least two other cities there ware protests, so not only a Moscow thing anymore.


So two other cities protesting Moscow election? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah these liberals are so liberal.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ah ok, this was about the two government thing and Russia and the EU chose the same side. It iis basically nothing and certainly not what you frame it to be. That's why always want some link with your statements because they need to be checked, you can't be trusted with facts as is again apparent in this "contribution".


See - that means Russia can't be dealt with efficiently, productively and for common good, right? :D :D
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:10 pm

We had a Russian troll here whom had the ability to give 4 kind of responses as it were 4 persons. Our Anrec seems to have this ability too. Now we see Anrac II, threatening with the world demise if you dare to have criticism on the great Putin regime.

But yeah, Dutch diplomates aren't safe in Moscow, as we have seen in the case were a Dutch diplomat was attacked in his house. This was a response to a Russian diplomat detained (wrongfully because of his status) because he beat his kids and his wife was drunk driving and ramped some cars. So yeah, Dutch diplomat knows all about the way Russian authorities handle this kind of thing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:24 pm

Are you talking about this?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 83606.html

I don’t think it’s related, but there are idiots everywhere. It certainly is far from state-sponsored. Sorry for that happening. A similar thing can happen anywhere to any individual.
 
seb146
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:39 pm

I wonder what an overthrow of Putin's government would do to the American election in November 2020? I am not being silly or anything. It is a legitimate question. Putin's government actively interfered in the American election in 2016 and they are trying it again.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
I wonder what an overthrow of Putin's government would do to the American election in November 2020? I am not being silly or anything. It is a legitimate question. Putin's government actively interfered in the American election in 2016 and they are trying it again.


How did Mueller’s investigation end? No proof of anything. What else do you need?

Things like “absence of proof is not a proof of absence”, “we would not say had we not been confident” and the likes are typical to the lawyer who lost his case. He can be as confident as he likes, but he knows that if he has no proof, then his confidence is his personal difficulty. At least until he can prove it.

The main question is - who will come to replace him? Inside Russia, he is being criticized for too soft and too gentle politics. Do you want someone more aggressive and firmer? Putin isn’t aggressive at all compared to others in Russian leadership.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We had a Russian troll here whom had the ability to give 4 kind of responses as it were 4 persons. Our Anrec seems to have this ability too. Now we see Anrac II, threatening with the world demise if you dare to have criticism on the great Putin regime.


I am talking not about criticism, but about state-sponsored coup. Can you try to see the difference between these two? Just watch out for your criticism - make sure you do not cross the boundary.
 
seb146
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:38 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I wonder what an overthrow of Putin's government would do to the American election in November 2020? I am not being silly or anything. It is a legitimate question. Putin's government actively interfered in the American election in 2016 and they are trying it again.


How did Mueller’s investigation end? No proof of anything. What else do you need?


The report concluded that Russia interfered and that team MAGA was involved. Right there in black and white in volume one. And Russians are trying to interfere again.

https://time.com/5565991/russia-influen ... -election/
https://www.wired.com/story/did-russia- ... ndeniable/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... -for-trump
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/us/p ... rence.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/p ... tions.html
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:14 am

seb146 wrote:


Yes, looked through these articles. One article uses wording “it’s not plausible, it’s likely”, some other uses the word “indictment”. There is nothing more here than what I said - game of words by the attorney (and other “indictors”) who lost their case and did not prove anything. Lost miserably - not even a single court finding.

Report concluded - well, a report can conclude whatever its authors want. In itself, this is not a proof.
 
seb146
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:


Yes, looked through these articles. One article uses wording “it’s not plausible, it’s likely”, some other uses the word “indictment”. There is nothing more here than what I said - game of words by the attorney (and other “indictors”) who lost their case and did not prove anything. Lost miserably - not even a single court finding.

Report concluded - well, a report can conclude whatever its authors want. In itself, this is not a proof.


Mueller's report did not exonerate anyone, either. The word "the" was used repeatedly. Proof that no one was exonerated. There was no total exoneration.

Still does not answer my question: Because Moscow is actively interfering with our elections, what would happen if/when Putin is overthrown?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:10 pm

Russia becomes more and more the old soviet style. With the nuclear disaster where suddenly areas beeing evacuated, authorizies do not want tobsay or do anything before being forced.

In Europe with many pro russian anti establish and sometime nazi connected parties being proved to be financed by russia russia will probably have it more complicated to continue their strategy. It is not as funny to be thrown out from government because of the connections to russia like happened in Austria.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:21 am

olle wrote:
Russia becomes more and more the old soviet style. With the nuclear disaster where suddenly areas being evacuated, authorities do not want to say or do anything before being forced......
Putin is from those times, that's all he knows. He was a KGB agent under the USSR. If you follow Putin that's where you're headed.
mham001 wrote:
I don't believe they can operate with democracy, the corruption and general scoffing at what we consider upstanding civilized behavior is too ingrained.
I have seen it the same way but now I have to ask myself if I'm selling them short.

These latest protests are remarkable for their size and discipline and now it comes out that they have broad support and there are only about 27% that are strongly opposed to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 11425.html

mham001 wrote:
They, like some other societies are probably better off with a strongman at this point.

Wrong, (very wrong) their problem is that they are addicted to totalitarian leadership, that is the source of the mindset that keeps Russia from being an equal among others. The solution to an addiction to totalitarian society is not more living in another totalitarian regime.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:19 am

Spar wrote:
These latest protests are remarkable for their size and discipline and now it comes out that they have broad support and there are only about 27% that are strongly opposed to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 11425.html


Good analysis. This is significant and might lead to significant change. No wonder the Putin regime is harsh on protests, they must know this as well.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:13 am

Spar wrote:
olle wrote:
Russia becomes more and more the old soviet style. With the nuclear disaster where suddenly areas being evacuated, authorities do not want to say or do anything before being forced......
Putin is from those times, that's all he knows. He was a KGB agent under the USSR. If you follow Putin that's where you're headed.
mham001 wrote:
I don't believe they can operate with democracy, the corruption and general scoffing at what we consider upstanding civilized behavior is too ingrained.
I have seen it the same way but now I have to ask myself if I'm selling them short.

These latest protests are remarkable for their size and discipline and now it comes out that they have broad support and there are only about 27% that are strongly opposed to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 11425.html

mham001 wrote:
They, like some other societies are probably better off with a strongman at this point.

Wrong, (very wrong) their problem is that they are addicted to totalitarian leadership, that is the source of the mindset that keeps Russia from being an equal among others. The solution to an addiction to totalitarian society is not more living in another totalitarian regime.


Even if 30-something percent of Moscow residents support protests in Moscow, why the hell should it bring any major changes on the Federal level?
If the authorities in Moscow want to give in to demands, it would mean letting some people participate in the Moscow local elections that were banned from participating.

Where the hell do these "analysts" go to make conclusions to the Federal level? 1+2+3=26?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:22 pm

tu204 wrote:
Spar wrote:
olle wrote:
Russia becomes more and more the old soviet style. With the nuclear disaster where suddenly areas being evacuated, authorities do not want to say or do anything before being forced......
Putin is from those times, that's all he knows. He was a KGB agent under the USSR. If you follow Putin that's where you're headed.
mham001 wrote:
I don't believe they can operate with democracy, the corruption and general scoffing at what we consider upstanding civilized behavior is too ingrained.
I have seen it the same way but now I have to ask myself if I'm selling them short.

These latest protests are remarkable for their size and discipline and now it comes out that they have broad support and there are only about 27% that are strongly opposed to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 11425.html

mham001 wrote:
They, like some other societies are probably better off with a strongman at this point.

Wrong, (very wrong) their problem is that they are addicted to totalitarian leadership, that is the source of the mindset that keeps Russia from being an equal among others. The solution to an addiction to totalitarian society is not more living in another totalitarian regime.


Even if 30-something percent of Moscow residents support protests in Moscow, why the hell should it bring any major changes on the Federal level?
If the authorities in Moscow want to give in to demands, it would mean letting some people participate in the Moscow local elections that were banned from participating.

Where the hell do these "analysts" go to make conclusions to the Federal level? 1+2+3=26?


If you had actually read the article you would know. If only 20 something of the citizens of Moscow do not support this protest, it does mean that the Putin government does an issue at hand, to put it mildly. As you know Russia is very centralized lead, a problem in Moscow spills easily to the federal level and according to the protesters, they see this as a first step towards the next election on the federal level or presidency. So yeah, it has got everything to do with each other.
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tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Spar wrote:
Putin is from those times, that's all he knows. He was a KGB agent under the USSR. If you follow Putin that's where you're headed.
I have seen it the same way but now I have to ask myself if I'm selling them short.

These latest protests are remarkable for their size and discipline and now it comes out that they have broad support and there are only about 27% that are strongly opposed to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 11425.html


Wrong, (very wrong) their problem is that they are addicted to totalitarian leadership, that is the source of the mindset that keeps Russia from being an equal among others. The solution to an addiction to totalitarian society is not more living in another totalitarian regime.


Even if 30-something percent of Moscow residents support protests in Moscow, why the hell should it bring any major changes on the Federal level?
If the authorities in Moscow want to give in to demands, it would mean letting some people participate in the Moscow local elections that were banned from participating.

Where the hell do these "analysts" go to make conclusions to the Federal level? 1+2+3=26?


If you had actually read the article you would know. If only 20 something of the citizens of Moscow do not support this protest, it does mean that the Putin government does an issue at hand, to put it mildly. As you know Russia is very centralized lead, a problem in Moscow spills easily to the federal level and according to the protesters, they see this as a first step towards the next election on the federal level or presidency. So yeah, it has got everything to do with each other.


Yeah, I have read the article, but why should I agree with what's written there? Don't get me wrong, the author has a partial idea of what they are writing and unlike you, I guess they live/lived in Russia for a year or two and have somewhat of an understanding.

Problem is that Russia is not as centralised around Moscow as he/she leads on. For Federal level changes there has to be Federal level support/protests. For example last year and the pension reforms. When there were protests throughout Russia with actual support, the government changed the position and relaxed the reforms at the Presidential level.
Plus people outside of Moscow won't really appreciate having some kids go out on the streets in Moscow demading changes that they don't agree with, plus prolly not too fond of these kids in the first place and won't have too big of a problem to go to Moscow to kick som ass. So the Ukrainian scenario of a coup doesn't really have a chnace of happening, so don't hold your breath. ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes I know, if NGO's don't support your views and you have strong pro-Putin regime views so that is often the case - then you do not believe them. So that is not a view it is more a religion for you.


There is nothing called an "independent NGO". NGOs always support the views of their clients, donors, grantors, sponsors, etc. Whatever they are.


You could't be more wrong. Usually it works the other way. NGO works on certain thing and those who agree donates. Where I'm from our government help them financially (based on law) even when their studies are against the country or government and it is considered normal. No one gets arrested if they don't agree the official line. .
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:54 pm

tu204 wrote:
Yeah, I have read the article, but why should I agree with what's written there? Don't get me wrong, the author has a partial idea of what they are writing and unlike you, I guess they live/lived in Russia for a year or two and have somewhat of an understanding.

Problem is that Russia is not as centralised around Moscow as he/she leads on. For Federal level changes there has to be Federal level support/protests. For example last year and the pension reforms. When there were protests throughout Russia with actual support, the government changed the position and relaxed the reforms at the Presidential level.
Plus people outside of Moscow won't really appreciate having some kids go out on the streets in Moscow demading changes that they don't agree with, plus prolly not too fond of these kids in the first place and won't have too big of a problem to go to Moscow to kick som ass. So the Ukrainian scenario of a coup doesn't really have a chnace of happening, so don't hold your breath. ;)


Suttle sneer, well-done sir.

And for a Ukrainian scenario? Well it might happen, it happened in 1991 in Moscow so why not? And you are essentially saying that the Putin government is democratically elected, there is no evidence for that. For being an autocrat, there is a lot of evidence.

Why doesn't the Moscow authority let opposition candidates be on the ballot and that for a poppet local counsel? If it were as you say it . wouldn't be a problem at all. So therefore as you present things aren't how things work, so why do you want to frame it at best of mislead us?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
And for a Ukrainian scenario? Well it might happen, it happened in 1991 in Moscow so why not? And you are essentially saying that the Putin government is democratically elected, there is no evidence for that. For being an autocrat, there is a lot of evidence.


Every adequate individual, and not only in Russia, hopes that this “Ukrainian scenario” will not happen in Russia, and Russian government has enough decisiveness to not let this happen. And do everything that’s needed in order to stop it, even if it involves Tiananmen scenario. Everyone saw how unfortunate it turned out to be for Ukraine that Yanukovich did not roll those “pro-European protesters” onto tank tracks.

Dutchy wrote:
Why doesn't the Moscow authority let opposition candidates be on the ballot and that for a poppet local counsel? If it were as you say it . wouldn't be a problem at all. So therefore as you present things aren't how things work, so why do you want to frame it at best of mislead us?


This is Russia’s internal affairs. They will figure it out without any foreign advice. When there is a demand in society for change in legislature, they will work on the changes. But Maidan scenarios and other law violations do not have any place here.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:54 am

anrec80 wrote:
Every adequate individual, and not only in Russia, hopes that this “Ukrainian scenario” will not happen in Russia, and Russian government has enough decisiveness to not let this happen. And do everything that’s needed in order to stop it, even if it involves Tiananmen scenario. Everyone saw how unfortunate it turned out to be for Ukraine that Yanukovich did not roll those “pro-European protesters” onto tank tracks.


This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.

As for Ukraine, yes, we have seen how Russia deliberately destabilized the country, there isn't a neighbor of Russia whom is willing with military force and other means, to destabilize the country after a government change, so not much danger of a Ukrainian scenario. ;)

anrec80 wrote:
This is Russia’s internal affairs. They will figure it out without any foreign advice. When there is a demand in society for change in legislature, they will work on the changes. But Maidan scenarios and other law violations do not have any place here.


Yes, it is Russia's internal affair. And it is Russians that are protesting. Nobody is advising them. So what is your point?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.


This is not specific to Putin. This is what any responsible and reasonable government would do. No President and no official would just watch an armed coup in brew right downstairs from where they are. And if you look at “the most democratic country on Earth” (the USA) - they do not hesitate to use force at all. Just look at Ferguson not too long ago and LAin 90s - even though those events had background of extreme and prolonged poverty. All these people deserved was just a brute suppression, nobody even bothered to see what their social problems were. So I am 100% confident that any USA President - be it Clintons family, Joe Biden, Trump - would hesitate to repeat Tiananmen 1989 in their respective country.

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, it is Russia's internal affair. And it is Russians that are protesting. Nobody is advising them. So what is your point?


Well - there are too many who would like to advise. Advices were on this forum even, what Russian government should do. There were calls in German press (one that receives German government funding) to go out to protests, regardless of their lawfulness. American Embassy before(!) the protests published the map of the illegal “peaceful walk”, on which even indicated where the police clashes were to happen. So what is this then?
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:01 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.


This is not specific to Putin. This is what any responsible and reasonable government would do. No President and no official would just watch an armed coup in brew right downstairs from where they are. And if you look at “the most democratic country on Earth” (the USA) - they do not hesitate to use force at all. Just look at Ferguson not too long ago and LAin 90s - even though those events had background of extreme and prolonged poverty. All these people deserved was just a brute suppression, nobody even bothered to see what their social problems were. So I am 100% confident that any USA President - be it Clintons family, Joe Biden, Trump - would hesitate to repeat Tiananmen 1989 in their respective country.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Whataboutism to the max, going into fantasy to link the two situations together. Putin crushed protest in 2011/2012 the protest and will crush these today. Russia isn't democratic so no surprise there, the Russians don't matter to the Putin government.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, it is Russia's internal affair. And it is Russians that are protesting. Nobody is advising them. So what is your point?


Well - there are too many who would like to advise. Advices were on this forum even, what Russian government should do.


You aren't Russian, but you are advising the Russian regime to crush it. So what is your point?
Last edited by Dutchy on Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:08 am

Organisers of Saturday's event are planning single-person pickets, in which one person at a time holds a protest sign, as these do not technically need approval from authorities to go ahead.


https://www.france24.com/en/20190817-mo ... of-rallies

So the protest continues, we will see if the authorities will crush these protest as well, although these are within even the rule of law of Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Every adequate individual, and not only in Russia, hopes that this “Ukrainian scenario” will not happen in Russia, and Russian government has enough decisiveness to not let this happen. And do everything that’s needed in order to stop it, even if it involves Tiananmen scenario. Everyone saw how unfortunate it turned out to be for Ukraine that Yanukovich did not roll those “pro-European protesters” onto tank tracks.


This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.


Yeah. Just like the autocratic Macron regime, the Trump regime and the Obama regime before him.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:42 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Every adequate individual, and not only in Russia, hopes that this “Ukrainian scenario” will not happen in Russia, and Russian government has enough decisiveness to not let this happen. And do everything that’s needed in order to stop it, even if it involves Tiananmen scenario. Everyone saw how unfortunate it turned out to be for Ukraine that Yanukovich did not roll those “pro-European protesters” onto tank tracks.


This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.


Yeah. Just like the autocratic Macron regime, the Trump regime and the Obama regime before him.


Nope, now you are just trolling. The Macron government isn't autocratic, that is ridiculous. And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This, we finally agree on something: yes the Putin government will do anything and everything to stay in power, just like any other autocratic regime does.


Yeah. Just like the autocratic Macron regime, the Trump regime and the Obama regime before him.


Nope, now you are just trolling. The Macron government isn't autocratic, that is ridiculous. And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.


Well their regimes used much more force to dispurse the peacefull protestors of the Yellow Vests, Ferguson and Occupy Wall Street. You know that people actually died in some of these protests, not just attention whores trying to get on camera while being gently being arrested by police (by western standards). You must be outraged, right? :roll:
For some reason I don't see much outrage on your part towards these barbaric acts against democracy and the rights of these people to protest. ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:20 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Yeah. Just like the autocratic Macron regime, the Trump regime and the Obama regime before him.


Nope, now you are just trolling. The Macron government isn't autocratic, that is ridiculous. And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.


Well their regimes used much more force to dispurse the peacefull protestors of the Yellow Vests, Ferguson and Occupy Wall Street. You know that people actually died in some of these protests, not just attention whores trying to get on camera while being gently being arrested by police (by western standards). You must be outraged, right? :roll:
For some reason I don't see much outrage on your part towards these barbaric acts against democracy and the rights of these people to protest. ;)


Do you really trust Russian government? Kursk didn't sink, the latest nuclear accident didn't happen https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/11 ... orld-war-3

In west the truth is told not in Russia!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:28 am

Dutchy wrote:

Nope, now you are just trolling. The Macron government isn't autocratic, that is ridiculous. And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.


There is no trolling. Macron and his regime will not just sit back and watch how some idiots block Champs Elyssees, trash it completely, and are preparing an armed coup. Regardless who they are - be them “green”, “pro-EU”, “social justice advocates” - doesn’t matter. Neither will “dual-gang Washington regime” watch how similar f-ups do the same on Pennsylvania Ave.

And I assure you - they have enough decisiveness to send tanks and roll those “protesters” onto their tracks, if all else fails. And this is his primary responsibility - to protect constitutional order.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.


Putin isn’t doing everything to stay in power. He does get re-elected with a large margin. And - once on a press conference he himself selected a question: “do you want to stay in power forever?”. The answer was simply - “No”.

Question from the American journalist Meghan Kelly “are you thinking who will replace you?” - “I am thinking on this daily, since year 2000”. When chasing ministers around - “what am I here - are you gonna want me to sit here until I am 100 years old?”. Obviously he isn’t looking to stay in power.

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