tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And where do you see Trump and Obama do anything to stay in power? Or is it just a load of bullocks.


Putin isn’t doing everything to stay in power. He does get re-elected with a large margin. And - once on a press conference he himself selected a question: “do you want to stay in power forever?”. The answer was simply - “No”.

Question from the American journalist Meghan Kelly “are you thinking who will replace you?” - “I am thinking on this daily, since year 2000”. When chasing ministers around - “what am I here - are you gonna want me to sit here until I am 100 years old?”. Obviously he isn’t looking to stay in power.


1. you are now contradicting yourself, you said that he will do anything to stay in power.
2. Putin is known to lie, he is KGB after all, so action speaks louder than words, changing job titles to stay in power, really only the most naive or most loyal follower would believe it otherwise
3. succession is a real problem for an autocratic leader, whom will succeed you so you don't face the consequences of you deeds while in office. Putin was well chosen by Yeltsin because he was known to protect corrupt leaders as he has done in Sint Petersburg. And Yeltsin and his family was left alone with all the money they have stolen. So the question is, can Putin find a Putin like figure to protect him if he stands down, otherwise he won't.


Nothing to protect him from. However as I said before hopefully in the upcoming 5 years someone that supports the current policy is groomed as a successor.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:33 pm

Ok, you hope that the autocratic regime will continue and no form of democracy for the Russians. You hope that the oligarchs will keep their position and continue to be protected by the regime. You hope that the Russians keep being oppressed by the Russian regime and that the regime can continue to keep acting like they own the country including continue to rob the place.

The forum is a free place to express your views and this is a view opposed one to all liberal democratic values and to the interest of ordinary Russians, but here it is free to express such an opinion. Naturally, I hope for a better future for ordinary Russians, but hey, that is me.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Aleksei Navalny, Released From Jail, Says Anti-Putin Protests Will Intensify


MOSCOW — Aleksei A. Navalny, the Kremlin’s highest-profile domestic critic, was released from jail on Friday after 30 days and said that opposition to President Vladimir V. Putin and protests against the authorities would grow despite efforts to crack down on the opposition.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/worl ... ussia.html

We'll see what this people movement can accomplish in an authoritarian state.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:

We'll see what this people movement can accomplish in an authoritarian state.


There is no “people movement”. There is Navalny and some “liberals” who are doing their job. They also employ a traveling troupe of “supporters”.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:55 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

We'll see what this people movement can accomplish in an authoritarian state.


There is no “people movement”. There is Navalny and some “liberals” who are doing their job. They also employ a traveling troupe of “supporters”.


And yet there are 50k people on the streets. But we will see if your Putin is again effective in squeezing the opposition, just like in 2011/2012. Hopefully, he doesn't again need to invade another country and destabilize it.
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tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

We'll see what this people movement can accomplish in an authoritarian state.


There is no “people movement”. There is Navalny and some “liberals” who are doing their job. They also employ a traveling troupe of “supporters”.


And yet there are 50k people on the streets. But we will see if your Putin is again effective in squeezing the opposition, just like in 2011/2012. Hopefully, he doesn't again need to invade another country and destabilize it.


Ok. Even if there are 50k on the streets, so what? Just thr population of Moscow is 12+ million. So 3-4% want to protest and somethin should change because of this?
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:48 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

There is no “people movement”. There is Navalny and some “liberals” who are doing their job. They also employ a traveling troupe of “supporters”.


And yet there are 50k people on the streets. But we will see if your Putin is again effective in squeezing the opposition, just like in 2011/2012. Hopefully, he doesn't again need to invade another country and destabilize it.


Ok. Even if there are 50k on the streets, so what? Just thr population of Moscow is 12+ million. So 3-4% want to protest and somethin should change because of this?


So you are fine with an autocratic regime that squeals any real opposition candidate for a relatively unimportant supposedly democratically elected body.

BTW 3/4% is an amazingly large percentage for a demonstration especially if you account for the real consequences the autocratic regime has in place for the protesters.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And yet there are 50k people on the streets. But we will see if your Putin is again effective in squeezing the opposition, just like in 2011/2012. Hopefully, he doesn't again need to invade another country and destabilize it.


Ok. Even if there are 50k on the streets, so what? Just thr population of Moscow is 12+ million. So 3-4% want to protest and somethin should change because of this?


So you are fine with an autocratic regime that squeals any real opposition candidate for a relatively unimportant supposedly democratically elected body.

BTW 3/4% is an amazingly large percentage for a demonstration especially if you account for the real consequences the autocratic regime has in place for the protesters.


If it was up to me I'd gladly let these clowns participate in the elections and get their 5%. Heck even illegally (like not collecting enough signatures), have them take part anyhow.

Most of them are career oppositioners and live on the fact they get arrested in front of cameras by staging unauthorized protests (perfectly demonstrated by staging an unauthorized protest after attending your own authorized protest in a different location a couple weeks ago), and have no actual plan should they get elected.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:45 am

Saterday again, and new round of protests.

Anti-Putin Opposition Calls New Protest Amid Crackdown Threat

Russian opposition leaders urged supporters to join the latest election protest in Moscow on Saturday, risking a new wave of detentions after city officials refused to authorize the rally.

The “march against political repression” through the center of the capital takes place eight days before Moscow city council elections that have become the focus of a revived opposition movement against President Vladimir Putin. Thousands have been detained by riot police at a series of demonstrations called after the authorities declined last month to register dozens of opposition and independent candidates for the Sept. 8 vote.


Link

So the unrest are set to continue to at least the controversial vote for the local Moscow elections. My take is that the Putin regime will not give in, they can't, so that leaves a few options open.
> The protesters will stop and accept that they live in a dictatorship and the Putin clan can continue to rob the place.
> The protesters will stop and will be pop up again in time for the next Russian presidential "elections" and demand for fair and open elections.
> The protesters will continue to protest and the Putin regime will crack down even harder, the outcome will bee unknown
> The Putin regime will elect to do a "rally behind the troops" routine again and will start a war somewhere outside of their border in the hope to regain the "trust" of the people.

We will see which scenario becomes true.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:10 am

The unrest in Moscow is still important and interesting. The Putin regime would like to keep it quiet, but they can't, so give it the right attention it deserves: these people are fighting for a better future, a more democratic one.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The unrest in Moscow is still important and interesting. The Putin regime would like to keep it quiet, but they can't, so give it the right attention it deserves: these people are fighting for a better future, a more democratic one.


What do they want now?
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:09 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The unrest in Moscow is still important and interesting. The Putin regime would like to keep it quiet, but they can't, so give it the right attention it deserves: these people are fighting for a better future, a more democratic one.


What do they want now?


For starters, fair and free elections. Not hard to understand.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
For starters, fair and free elections. Not hard to understand.


Same thing. Not interesting. :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:20 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
For starters, fair and free elections. Not hard to understand.


Same thing. Not interesting. :roll: :roll: :roll:


I know, you want autocratic leaders everywhere, no democracy, no rule of law, no freedom of press etc. This is your dream state. The question is why? Many have formed an opinion on that question, but enjoy your spoils from your "work".
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
For starters, fair and free elections. Not hard to understand.


Same thing. Not interesting. :roll: :roll: :roll:


I know, you want autocratic leaders everywhere, no democracy, no rule of law, no freedom of press etc. This is your dream state. The question is why? Many have formed an opinion on that question, but enjoy your spoils from your "work".


This is exactly what my stand is in support of - the rule of law. Yes, I do agree that the requirements of the law are somewhat excessive. Nonetheless, it’s the law, and it should be complied with. For its changes - there are democratic and legitimate procedures - streets aren’t for that. And violation of even more laws, endangering your own supporters isn’t a go.

Yes, you believe that these law violations are in support of “freedom” and “democracy”, and hence the law can stand on the side. But this is no longer rule of law then. This is the a way to disasters.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:18 am

Now, we have the first series of convictions, at last.

https://www.dw.com/en/russian-blogger-s ... a-50275697

A Moscow court has sentenced Vladislav Sinitsa to prison for a tweet promoting "extremism" and "violence."


His tweet was:

They could look at their happy family photos, study the geolocations and then the child of a brave law enforcement officer simply doesn't come home from school. Instead of a child, the mail brings a CD with a snuff video.
Last edited by anrec80 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:57 am

I noticed a lot of contributions were deleted, mainly critical towards the Putin regime. So I will document this one precisely and it is all relevant to this thread: unrest in Moscow and the reasons why people are protesting. So no reason to let it be deleted.

Protests over Russian local election make Kremlin nervous

MOSCOW — A seemingly second-tier local election has evolved into a major challenge to Russian President Vladimir Putin, triggering the biggest protests against his rule in seven years and causing divisions among his top lieutenants.

Although the protests were sparked by the exclusion of some opposition and independent candidates from the ballot for the Moscow city council election to be held Sunday, they also reflect growing discontent after Putin’s nearly two decades in power.

The protests come amid public irritation over the Kremlin’s decision to raise the retirement age and other unpopular moves by the government. The economy, burdened by several waves of Western sanctions, has barely climbed out of recession and remains anemic, spawning frustration over stagnant living standards.


Link

Moscow Plans Face-ID Camera Network for Opposition Protests

Moscow officials plan to create a network of CCTV cameras with face-recognition software to help identify participants of mass protests, after the Russian capital witnessed the largest anti-Kremlin demonstrations in seven years.

The city government is spending 260 million rubles ($3.9 million) to hire Sitronics, a unit of billionaire Vladimir Evtushenkov’s PJSFC Sistema, to help design the city-wide surveillance system that will be connected to a single data center, according to the Russian state-purchases disclosure website.

Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin told President Vladimir Putin in May that he planned to deploy face-recognition software in a network of up to 200,000 cameras to help law enforcement identify criminals and improve security, according to the Kremlin. The surveillance system would be among the world’s largest, rivaled only by Chinese cities, Sobyanin said.


link

So Moscow and thus Russian society, is becoming more and more 1984, follows Chinese suit. Oppression is getting worse in Russian society, so indeed Putin regime must feel the heat and are afraid that they cannot control this unrest anymore.

Kremlin v people
Repression in Russia no longer works as well as it did

A violent crackdown on protests has prompted widespread outrage

Egor zhukov, a student in Moscow, published a video blog on August 1st in which he described how the siloviki (members of Russia’s security services) had seized power in Russia, using protests over local elections in Moscow as an excuse. “Russia will inevitably be free,” he said, “but we may not live to see it if we let fear win, because when fear wins, silence comes...a silence that will be disturbed by the screeching brakes of a black police wagon and the deafening ring of a doorbell that divides life into before and after.”

Coming from a 21-year-old student, in prettified and bustling Moscow, with its hipster cafés and cycle lanes, the associations with the darkest days of the Soviet 1930s seemed like hyperbole. Eight hours later, in the middle of the night, the security services rang Mr Zhukov’s doorbell. At 2.05am, he sent a text message to a friend: “They’ve come for me.” A few hours later, he was led away and charged with involvement in “mass disturbances” during the summer protests. The charge was fabricated. Not only were the protests peaceful but Mr Zhukov was misidentified in a video used by the police. The only acts of violence during the protests were committed by the police and the security services.


Link

Local elections, high national stakes: what you need to know about Russia’s vote on Sunday

ussians will head to the polls on Sunday (September 8) for municipal and regional elections.

Under normal circumstances, such a local vote would have gone unnoticed by most Russians, blasé by the usual “elections without a choice”.

But this year, everything could be different. Euronews explains why.

A summer of protests
The vote in the Russian capital has already triggered weeks of protests after authorities refused to register a slew of opposition-minded candidates.

Election officials said the barred candidates had not collected enough genuine signatures to take part in Sunday's election, an allegation the candidates denied.

A single march on August 10 attracted around 60,000 people, which a monitoring group called the country’s biggest political protest for eight years.

Police have briefly detained over 2,000 people at this summer's protests in Moscow, with courts jailing some of those who took part for up to four years.

Play Video
1m 10s

Thousands defy protest ban in Moscow and march against Putin's government

Weeks of demonstrations over elections for the city legislature have turned into the biggest sustained protest movement in Russia since 2011-2013, when protesters took to the streets against perceived electoral fraud.

According to experts reached by Euronews, the authorities’ reactions, rather than the elections themselves, is what fuelled the protest movement.

“The point of the protests was not the elections but the illegal actions of authorities towards the protesters. I think that few people are interested in the elections themselves. But what happens to specific people - this can cause protests,” said Yuliy Nisnevich, a professor, doctor of political sciences.

The expert, however, noted that although the protests are growing, they still represent a small minority which may not affect President Vladimir Putin and his grip on power

According to Grigory Melkonyants, co-chairman of Golos elections watchdog, a protest spirit started to emerge as early as during the 2018 elections.

Even though Putin then won a landslide victory, runoff elections were held in several regions of the country because of the so-called protest vote. As a result, “unwanted” candidates unexpectedly came to power, the expert said.

“People begin to (...) believe in the power of their voices,” Melkonyants told Euronews.

“You understand that the authorities want to push a certain candidate, and you go and vote for another candidate. That’s the whole protest,” Melkonyants said.

The expert believes this trend will only intensify in the upcoming elections.


Link

Elections themselves are not the issue, the way the people are treated by the Putin regime and the belief that something might change and the Putin crackdown of that.

‘I Am Always Asked if I Am Afraid’: Activist Lawyer Takes On Putin’s Russia

MOSCOW — After nearly losing her husband to an attack with lethal poison and surviving repeated clashes with burly Russian police officers, Lyubov Sobol looked on the bright side last week when she was targeted yet again in a long campaign of intimidation.

“At least it wasn’t feces,” Ms. Sobol, a 31-year-old lawyer and opposition activist, said in an interview shortly after an unidentified assailant threw slimy black goop at her as she was getting into a taxi near her Moscow apartment block.

Ms. Sobol has for years annoyed the Kremlin with her dogged pursuit of evidence of graft and greed among associates of President Vladimir V. Putin, particularly the businessman Yevgeny V. Prigozhin, a former hot-dog seller known as “Putin’s cook” who has been indicted by the United States in connection with the troll factory that spearheaded Russian meddling in the 2016 American election.


Link

Quite brave to go on in the face of an oppressive regime like the one currently in Russia. Fighting for a better world, one can only respect that.

Russian Protesters Aided by Digital Tools, Self-Organizing

MOSCOW — It's a scene many Muscovites have grown used to seeing this summer as a new wave of anti-government demonstrations gripped the Russian capital: Two masked, heavily clad riot policemen drag away a shrieking teenager as the protesters around them try to free her.

But then the two officers abruptly straighten up when she kicks and shouts.

"Well done! That was much better," one of them says, patting her shoulder. "But don't fight back or they'll hurt you."

It was a protest defense training session organized by a group of civic activists at the Sakharov Center, a venue named for the Soviet Union's most famous dissident, Andrei Sakharov.

About 100 people had gathered for the training, including a dozen or so members of the grassroots group Bessrochka, which emerged last year. Its name can be loosely translated to "Protest Without End."

Although its membership is still small, the group's use of digital tools, its organization efforts and education of recruits mark a shift in civil consciousness previously unseen in Russia.

The almost weekly rallies in the capital have been protesting a decision by authorities to keep a dozen independent candidates off the Sept. 8 ballot for the Moscow city council. The demonstrations have been marked by an unusually harsh crackdown by police, with hundreds arrested.


Link

Well done, use digital tools to organize, that's the way to loosen the Putin grip on you. Promising signs of things to come.

Russia United candidates contest as independents in Moscow polls

When voters in Moscow head to the polls in the city election on Sunday, their ballot papers won’t show a single candidate running on the ticket of President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party.
Instead, they will be contesting as independent candidates.
The move comes on the back of declining popularity for United Russia and large protests against a ban blocking some opposition politicians from running.


Link

This is just hilarious, who are they fooling with this one? The "indipendent" candidates are still all Putin loyalist, the whole reason this unrest began: no opposition candidates allowed.

Trump urged to impose new sanctions against Russia because of the protests in Moscow

The Chairman of the international Affairs Committee of the U.S. house of representatives Eliot Engel and Congressman Michael mccaul called on the President of the United States Donald trump to impose new sanctions against Russia in connection with the protests in Moscow. This is stated in the statement published on the website of Engel.

According to us congressmen in Russia for human rights violations during the protests in Moscow. Politicians are going to bring the perpetrators, in their opinion, the persons responsible. They expressed their willingness to cooperate with the administration of the trump. Engel and McCall said that the opposition parties should also have the opportunity to nominate candidates and to participate in municipal elections in Moscow and St. Petersburg.


Link

Given all the trouble the Putin regime went through to get Trump elected, I would say the return on investment isn't were it should be.

So the fake - and we can call them that because they aren't free - elections are tomorrow. Let's see what will happen with the results and the public reaction to this and mainly what effect it will have in the next Presidential elections, those do actually matter.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:03 am

WIederling wrote:

Top democratic procedure, obviously:

John Bolton: "we know where your kids live".
https://johnmenadue.com/ramesh-thakur-w ... arch-2002/
( and a dozen supporting links .. )

It is a major problem when so called "opposition" is financed and controlled from abroad and aggravated if those interest groups definitely have no good intentions.
Remember the Iraq "opposition groups" asembled from those with a criminal background ...


Ah, why do you get a "quote" from a dubious source from 17 years ago from an American? What is the relevance to the Moscow protests?

So would you mind provide a serious source to this allegation?

So two faults with this post, I am guessing that Amrec80 is eager to let it remove, or does he only wants to censor things he doesn't like, e.g. isn't in Putin's interests. And as a good Putin groupie, you need to make sure, this thread and the forum is Putin proof.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This is just hilarious, who are they fooling with this one? The "indipendent" candidates are still all Putin loyalist, the whole reason this unrest began: no opposition candidates allowed.


Interesting that the pro-Putin candidates must run as "independents", because Putin's United Russia party is so unpopular:

"Voters in Moscow go to the polls in a local election on Sunday, but when they examine their ballot papers, they won’t find a single candidate running on the ticket of President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party. Instead, more observant voters will discover United Russia members posing as “independent candidates” in an apparent bid to distance themselves from Putin’s increasingly unpopular party."

"Project, an investigative journalism website that often cites sources within the government and other power structures, reported this week that authorities took the decision to bar opposition candidates after internal polling revealed that Kremlin critics were poised to win at least nine seats in the City Duma. Ilya Yashin, another aspiring opposition candidate, was 28 percentage points ahead of his nearest rival before he was removed from the race, according to an opinion poll published by the Levada Center, an independent think tank in Moscow."


It is also interesting that, while one protestor was being sentenced for being present at a protest, Putin himself was overseas claiming that protesting was not a crime:

"On Thursday, Konstantin Kotov, a 34-year-old opposition activist, was sentenced to four years in prison after being found guilty of attending multiple unsanctioned, yet peaceful protests. The sentence came shortly after Putin told an economic forum in Vladivostok that Russians have the right to protest."

https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-russia-party-pulls-election-disappearing-act/

Funny how all the claims of "free elections" don't hold up to the evidence.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:44 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Funny how all the claims of "free elections" don't hold up to the evidence.


That's evident for many reasons. There are quite embarrising clips online where the faude is evident. And in this case the opposition isn't even on the ballot. So institutional fraude.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Funny how all the claims of "free elections" don't hold up to the evidence.

That's evident for many reasons. There are quite embarrising clips online where the faude is evident. And in this case the opposition isn't even on the ballot. So institutional fraude.


Well... it's done. Even after all the extensive attempts to manipulate the candidates and the results, Putin and his United Russia party suffered huge setbacks in Sunday's election in Moscow:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49632163

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/worl ... ction.html
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:42 am

alfa164 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Funny how all the claims of "free elections" don't hold up to the evidence.

That's evident for many reasons. There are quite embarrising clips online where the faude is evident. And in this case the opposition isn't even on the ballot. So institutional fraude.


Well... it's done. Even after all the extensive attempts to manipulate the candidates and the results, Putin and his United Russia party suffered huge setbacks in Sunday's election in Moscow:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49632163

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/worl ... ction.html


Excellent. Wakeup calls like this are needed to keep the government in check.

I rarely agree with Navalny, but his "Smart Voting" idea is pretty good and worked well. Where in each district a a candidate from any party other than United Russia was selected (since the United Russia candidate would traditionally get around 40% of the votes and win, since all the other candidates would get around 10%). This is the "pinch" I was referring to ;)
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:44 am

tu204 wrote:
Excellent. Wakeup calls like this are needed to keep the government in check.


So you want the Putin regime to be even more oppressive? Or more fraud being committed? Surely you don't mean more democratic measures to be taken, more freedom, more openness? That will end the KGB regime as we know it.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Excellent. Wakeup calls like this are needed to keep the government in check.


So you want the Putin regime to be even more oppressive? Or more fraud being committed? Surely you don't mean more democratic measures to be taken, more freedom, more openness? That will end the KGB regime as we know it.


The result from this will be (as has been with protests in the past 10 years is that all of a sudden these elected officials that weren't doing their job start taking it more seriously since they wake up and realize that just because they belong to a certain party doesn't mean that they will automatically keep their positions.

As I've said here before - I agree with Putin's position. What I don't agree with is the lack of a competent opposition to keep the ruling party in check. Now it looks like it's happening.

For the record we also had local elections in Tatarstan and I voted LDPR. Not because I support them either.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:04 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Excellent. Wakeup calls like this are needed to keep the government in check.


So you want the Putin regime to be even more oppressive? Or more fraud being committed? Surely you don't mean more democratic measures to be taken, more freedom, more openness? That will end the KGB regime as we know it.


The result from this will be (as has been with protests in the past 10 years is that all of a sudden these elected officials that weren't doing their job start taking it more seriously since they wake up and realize that just because they belong to a certain party doesn't mean that they will automatically keep their positions.

As I've said here before - I agree with Putin's position. What I don't agree with is the lack of a competent opposition to keep the ruling party in check. Now it looks like it's happening.

For the record we also had local elections in Tatarstan and I voted LDPR. Not because I support them either.


That is very positive and some will say the naive way of putting things.
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alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:41 pm

I don't understand how anyone can "agree with Putin's position" and then say they don't agree with "the lack of a competent opposition".

Putin's position is, after all, to crush any competent opposition and to prevent them from running for - much less winning - public office.
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I don't understand how anyone can "agree with Putin's position" and then say they don't agree with "the lack of a competent opposition".

Putin's position is, after all, to crush any competent opposition and to prevent them from running for - much less winning - public office.


exactly.
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alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:39 pm

Despite all the euphoria of seeing a semblance of opposition holding about 40% of the seats in Moscow, Putin's loyalists still won a majority ("won" in a sense that no real opposition was allowed to run against most of them) after posing as "independents" and shedding their United Russia party credentials. Nationwide, pro-Putin loyalists prevailed.

The strength of the opposition in Russia's largest city could be either (1) a wake-up call to Putin, forcing him to allow real choices in order to stave off even bigger protests around future elections, or (2) a wake-up call to Putin, causing him to crack down even further on anyone or any group who dare to question his authority.

It would be encouraging if it were the former... but I suspect the latter is more likely.

https://www.vox.com/2019/9/9/20856872/moscow-election-results-navalny-putin-united-russia
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:51 am

Could go both ways, that harder the oppression the harder the Putin regime fights back, see Hong Kong
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alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Could go both ways, that harder the oppression the harder the Putin regime fights back, see Hong Kong


I am afraid you are right; Putin's goon seem to be carrying out revenge raids after the strong showing by opposition. I wouldn' t want to be on his "hit list" this week.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -activists
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:46 am

Always useful that others are doing the fact-checking for you:

Link

Quite a few lies, misleading and half-truths from the Putin regime.

The questions is of course, what will happen now, the Putin cronies did their thing and have the absolute majority, but the unrest isn't taken away. So what is next for them.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The questions is of course, what will happen now, the Putin cronies did their thing and have the absolute majority, but the unrest isn't taken away. So what is next for them.


What’s next in a democratic country after someone wins an election? The winner party comes in, assumes responsibility and works. And everyone prepares for the next election round.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:58 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The questions is of course, what will happen now, the Putin cronies did their thing and have the absolute majority, but the unrest isn't taken away. So what is next for them.


What’s next in a democratic country after someone wins an election? The winner party comes in, assumes responsibility and works. And everyone prepares for the next election round.


That was not the question, I know how it works in a democratic country, I was asking about Russia and what happens after the rigged elections in Moscow.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:

That was not the question, I know how it works in a democratic country, I was asking about Russia and what happens after the rigged elections in Moscow.


Who in Russia believes that the election is rigged? Those “protest leaders” have electoral rating of less than 1%, based on recent elections into other institutions. Hence 99% don’t see anything “rigged”. Yes, some “voice” of maybe some “liberty” would (like the link you gave above), but in Russia who cares about those.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:35 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That was not the question, I know how it works in a democratic country, I was asking about Russia and what happens after the rigged elections in Moscow.


Who in Russia believes that the election is rigged? Those “protest leaders” have electoral rating of less than 1%, based on recent elections into other institutions. Hence 99% don’t see anything “rigged”. Yes, some “voice” of maybe some “liberty” would (like the link you gave above), but in Russia who cares about those.


You are a foreigner to Russia, so how do you know? So let me get this straight, you believe that Russians don't care that their government lies to them? Interesting, I think that Russians are a bit more smart than you obviopusly.

Anyhow, the elections are rigged, because they aren't free and nobody can deny that.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You are a foreigner to Russia, so how do you know? So let me get this straight, you believe that Russians don't care that their government lies to them? Interesting, I think that Russians are a bit more smart than you obviopusly.

Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, the elections are rigged, because they aren't free and nobody can deny that.


The determination whether the elections are “rigged” or not belongs to the voters themselves - they are the source of legitimacy of the elected body. Not to some “radio free whatever” and “free something else”. The political parties a-la Navalny that yell about “rigged elections” and other “government lies” do not gain more than 1%, that’s it. This topic does not deserve any more attention simply.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You are a foreigner to Russia, so how do you know? So let me get this straight, you believe that Russians don't care that their government lies to them? Interesting, I think that Russians are a bit more smart than you obviopusly.

Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, the elections are rigged, because they aren't free and nobody can deny that.


The determination whether the elections are “rigged” or not belongs to the voters themselves - they are the source of legitimacy of the elected body. Not to some “radio free whatever” and “free something else”. The political parties a-la Navalny that yell about “rigged elections” and other “government lies” do not gain more than 1%, that’s it. This topic does not deserve any more attention simply.


Fine, than don't give it any, this thread will be better of.

The elections are rigged because there is no free press, no free justice, no free elections, simple as that. The voters can hardly raise their voices if there is no freedom. So either you are blinding yourself if you believe your nonsense or you are willingly spread lies like that, so what is it?
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lots
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:35 pm

Dutchy You try but buy You can't win this argument. For every fact speaking against holy Russian government will be twisted and discredited using half truths, allegations and absurd accusations. Pattern is always the same.
For western observer it is obvious that crackdown on opposition intensifies, which is a sure sign that Kremlin took note and tries to silence dissenters.
I am old enough to remember that those bloody imperialists tried to ridicule and destroy our socialist ideals. And whatever bad happened in Poland was of western making.

And now chorus: what about Soros, organizations financed from abroad, liberals who make a living being arrested in front of cameras?
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged because there is no free press, no free justice, no free elections, simple as that.


I don’t see any issues with freedoms of anything you mentioned. In “free” countries RT faces by far more hurdles than all Western media in Russia combined (not counting “response” restrictions). Justice wise - they may detain 1200 “protest” participants, out of which 1150 will be released within 2 hours, most others - maybe held for a few days, and only a handful will become real criminal cases. Seems fine to me. And - I don’t know why you brought “justice” up even. After all the farces of “election meddling” and MH-17 “investigation” I really would not have brought this up.

Dutchy wrote:
The voters can hardly raise their voices if there is no freedom.


In Russia, there are dozens of political parties, big and small. And ample of legal ways for voters to voice their opinion. Even public events - authorities in nearly every major city allow those, including liberal ones - however the event has to be legal and held in accordance with requirements of the law.

Dutchy wrote:
So either you are blinding yourself if you believe your nonsense or you are willingly spread lies like that, so what is it?


I am just a pragmatic and do not believe in ideological dogmas.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:48 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged because there is no free press, no free justice, no free elections, simple as that.


I don’t see any issues with freedoms of anything you mentioned.


Sure you don't. All those freedoms are easy to research and have pointed them out to you in the past and all those have a lot of issues with it Russia. You are a blind bad when it comes to the Putin regime and applause everything so your "opinion" is worth nothing. The only question is why?
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alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:23 am

lots wrote:
Dutchy You try but buy You can't win this argument. For every fact speaking against holy Russian government will be twisted and discredited using half truths, allegations and absurd accusations. Pattern is always the same. For western observer it is obvious that crackdown on opposition intensifies, which is a sure sign that Kremlin took note and tries to silence dissenters. I am old enough to remember that those bloody imperialists tried to ridicule and destroy our socialist ideals. And whatever bad happened in Poland was of western making.

And now chorus: what about Soros, organizations financed from abroad, liberals who make a living being arrested in front of cameras?


:checkmark: You can't expect any truths to come from the official Russian propaganda machine, whether it comes from Puntin's mouth or from Russian trolls on the internet.

Any attempt at an honest discussion is futile.

.
https://time.com/5168202/russia-troll-i ... ch-agency/
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alfa164
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged because there is no free press, no free justice, no free elections, simple as that. The voters can hardly raise their voices if there is no freedom. So either you are blinding yourself if you believe your nonsense or you are willingly spread lies like that, so what is it?


Even Russians at home are falling away from the Putin propaganda and political machine.

https://time.com/5672235/putin-moscow-elections/
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:23 am

alfa164 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged because there is no free press, no free justice, no free elections, simple as that. The voters can hardly raise their voices if there is no freedom. So either you are blinding yourself if you believe your nonsense or you are willingly spread lies like that, so what is it?


Even Russians at home are falling away from the Putin propaganda and political machine.

https://time.com/5672235/putin-moscow-elections/


:checkmark: Can't open it, but I have a funny feeling what's in there.

Anyhow, Russians are no fools, but one of the propaganda techniques, you saw it with the shooting down of MH17 in full swing, is to floot the news "market" with stories, one more unbelievable than the other. In essence they barry the real story under such a pile of shit that Russians can't distinguish what is real and what's not. It is very effective, unfortunately, this is rubbish, that is rubbish, so everything is rubbish, so I do not believe anything that is being said.

With these demonstrations it is the same. Most Russians get their news from Russian state-owned news anyway, so they are fed their daily portion of Putin propaganda. That's why I feel lucky we have a free press in the Netherlands to have one more layer of checks and balances.
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