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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 pm

anrec80 wrote:
There is no whataboutism anywhere here. Both Russia and Netherlands are states with people living in them.


Really? Mind is blown, did you know both Russia and the Netherlands have trees in them and I even saw rivers in both Russia and the Netherlands.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutch people wanted to be governed by one set of processes and laws they consider legitimate, Russians want to be governed by another. That also include who’s their leadership and what authorities they have. This is normal, there is nothing wrong with this.


We don't know what Russians would want, that is always the case in an autocracy, or are you telling me that people in North Korea or Eritrea are perfectly happy about the way they are governed. Oh man, this sounds so easy argument to make and it fails each and every time so miserably.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Would you mind backing that up with a credible link from a source we can trust? And a friendly reminder that you haven't backed up any of your claims on this thread, so if you are busy collecting the source for the 99%, you might want to put a little effort in the rest. It has the benefit for you that you will not easily be painted like a Putin Troll and tell me you would like that as would I since I would learn something instead of just reading all the different accounts of the democracy failing in Russia.


Sure - just look at the results of latest parliamentary elections in Russia of 2016.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Ru ... e_election

Look at the result of “People’s freedom party” of 0.74%. This is where those (Nemtsov was there, Navalny is hanging around with them, Kasianov and Khodoroovsky are around there too) running around Western capitals and calling for “Democratic Russia” are gathered, and those who support and share the ideas of “freedom to protest”, “regime change” and the likes - the very same ideas you believe in. This is their true support.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:20 pm

tu204 wrote:
Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada.

I wouldn't talk of Poland as a powerhouse either...its like saying Crimea is awesome because in 5 years everything has gone up. Well yeah, throw enough money into it and it will.


Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada? Might be in your case, I don't know, but as we all know that is anecdotical evidence at best, so it is meaningless. If your statement was true, then the numbers would reflect it, right? So let me help you to prove it: look up the numbers of Canadian moving to Russia to pursue a career, and the number of Russians moving to Canada doing the same. I have one example for you already: A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

In short, I truly want to believe you, so back-up your claims with independent evidence.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Would you mind backing that up with a credible link from a source we can trust? And a friendly reminder that you haven't backed up any of your claims on this thread, so if you are busy collecting the source for the 99%, you might want to put a little effort in the rest. It has the benefit for you that you will not easily be painted like a Putin Troll and tell me you would like that as would I since I would learn something instead of just reading all the different accounts of the democracy failing in Russia.


Sure - just look at the results of latest parliamentary elections in Russia of 2016.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Ru ... e_election

Look at the result of “People’s freedom party” of 0.74%. This is where those (Nemtsov was there, Navalny is hanging around with them, Kasianov and Khodoroovsky are around there too) running around Western capitals and calling for “Democratic Russia” are gathered, and those who support and share the ideas of “freedom to protest”, “regime change” and the likes - the very same ideas you believe in. This is their true support.


Oh man, please, I can't stop laughing that you bring up this as "evidence", look I can use quotes as you and use them correctly. The funny thing is that it is no evidence of the 99% behind Putin. United Russia, Putin's party and I use the term party broadly here, had 53%, not 99%. So even with your evidence, your claim fails miserably, which is funny in itself. But even more funny, from the same page:

United Russia won a supermajority of seats, allowing them to change the Constitution without the votes of other parties. Turnout was reported as low. Throughout the day there were reports of voting fraud including video purporting to show officials stuffing ballot boxes.[48] Additionally, results in many regions demonstrate that United Russia on many poll stations got anomalously close results, for example, 62.2% in more than hundred poll stations in Saratov Oblast. This suggests that the results in these regions likely have been rigged.[49] The government said there was no evidence of any large scale cheating.[50] However, on 22 September the Central Electoral Committee canceled the results in seven constituencies, where the number of used ballots exceeded the number of registered voters, or where the authorities were videotaped stuffing the ballots.[51] According to research by University of Michigan political scientists Kirill Kalinin and Walter R. Mebane, Jr., the election results are fraudulent.


FRAUD, thus these "results" are the only evidence of the Putin party, United Russia, is very efficient in organizing fraudulent elections. So nice try, but now really try again. You know we check what you say, so come up with something better, this is bullocks and frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Given that you have no problem with giving us link, what about the other stuff you have been claiming, or can we conclude you do not have any and that's why you don't give us anything.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Really? Mind is blown, did you know both Russia and the Netherlands have trees in them and I even saw rivers in both Russia and the Netherlands.


I am glad you are staring to get it. What I was taking about is simply basics of how people living in the same territory tend to organize themselves. They of course are the same everywhere, and are the same as they were 5000 years ago.

Any political system - democracy, monarchy, what you call “dictatorship” - is a set of procedures and processes of making collective decisions in the society that are deemed legitimate by overwhelming majority of society’s members. With Russian government’s decisions it’s the case in Russia (see percentage of those disagreeing in the post above), I’m glad it’s the case in Netherlands. There was a moment in time when it wasn’t the case in Ukraine, and we know the results.

Dutchy wrote:
We don't know what Russians would want, that is always the case in an autocracy, or are you telling me that people in North Korea or Eritrea are perfectly happy about the way they are governed. Oh man, this sounds so easy argument to make and it fails each and every time so miserably.


You don’t know - then there is no reason to stick in. They will figure it out by themselves. If Russian people decide they need some help and advice - then such requests must be coming from winners of legitimate elections (be it individuals or parties), or coalition of those. Not from the streets and marginals on them.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:

FRAUD, thus these "results" are the only evidence of the Putin party, United Russia, is very efficient in organizing fraudulent elections. So nice try, but now really try again. You know we check what you say, so come up with something better, this is bullocks and frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Given that you have no problem with giving us link, what about the other stuff you have been claiming, or can we conclude you do not have any and that's why you don't give us anything.


Yes, some violations in some places are unavoidable in any country. There were all sorts of Western monitors, and those elections were recognized and acknowledged by the world, including the EU and other European institutions. That includes your own country. The violations did not influence the total result - and that was also recognized. The election results represent the free will of Russian nation - that is also recognized everywhere. And yes - that includes those 0.74 percent of those calling “to liberate the country”.

And after all - the final word of recognition belongs to Russians themselves, and certainly not to someone in University of Michigan. What’s your problem with the result?
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:51 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I am glad you are staring to get it. What I was taking about is simply basics of how people living in the same territory tend to organize themselves. They of course are the same everywhere, and are the same as they were 5000 years ago.

Any political system - democracy, monarchy, what you call “dictatorship” - is a set of procedures and processes of making collective decisions in the society that are deemed legitimate by overwhelming majority of society’s members. With Russian government’s decisions it’s the case in Russia (see percentage of those disagreeing in the post above), I’m glad it’s the case in Netherlands. There was a moment in time when it wasn’t the case in Ukraine, and we know the results.


Oh man, this is how a cat must feel playing with a mouse. Well, mouse, the elections were fraudilous, so no evidence of anything except the ruling party is quite well in staying in power.
But far more interesting, so basically what you are saying one moment people are fine with how they are ruled - because it is how they are ruled they are fine with it (just look at that kind of reasoning it is too funny when a 5-year-old says it like that, but an adult, meah, but that is just me), - and the next there is out of the blue a revolution and afterwards everyone is fine with the new rules. That's how your reasoning works? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We don't know what Russians would want, that is always the case in an autocracy, or are you telling me that people in North Korea or Eritrea are perfectly happy about the way they are governed. Oh man, this sounds so easy argument to make and it fails each and every time so miserably.


You don’t know - then there is no reason to stick in. They will figure it out by themselves. If Russian people decide they need some help and advice - then such requests must be coming from winners of legitimate elections (be it individuals or parties), or coalition of those. Not from the streets and marginals on them.


Again, see above. This is funny but complete and utter bullocks.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Oh man, this is how a cat must feel playing with a mouse. Well, mouse, the elections were fraudilous, so no evidence of anything except the ruling party is quite well in staying in power.


This is a very interesting sentence, you know. “Elections were fraudulent, no evidence of anything”. What evidence and of what do you need? Do I even approach trying to understand this? The whole world, including your country, recognized the elections as legitimate, you are the only one who just doesn’t want to. So who’s the mouse here?


Dutchy wrote:
But far more interesting, so basically what you are saying one moment people are fine with how they are ruled - because it is how they are ruled they are fine with it (just look at that kind of reasoning it is too funny when a 5-year-old says it like that, but an adult, meah, but that is just me), - and the next there is out of the blue a revolution and afterwards everyone is fine with the new rules. That's how your reasoning works? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl



If you are speaking of Ukraine - first, the revolution wasn’t out of blue, but sponsored from abroad, and we all know by whom it was staged. Second - far from everyone was fine with the new rules, and those who weren’t - escaped together with territories they were living in. Or at least tried to.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Oh man, this is how a cat must feel playing with a mouse. Well, mouse, the elections were fraudilous, so no evidence of anything except the ruling party is quite well in staying in power.


This is a very interesting sentence, you know. “Elections were fraudulent, no evidence of anything”. What evidence and of what do you need? Do I even approach trying to understand this? The whole world, including your country, recognized the elections as legitimate, you are the only one who just doesn’t want to. So who’s the mouse here?


Did you read the article that you linked as evidence? If you didn't and I suppose you didn't otherwise it is kind of strange to link to an article that says that the elections were fraudulent, I conveniently highlighted the part for you which did actually research the elections that came to this conclusion. So I am certainly not alone and I could give you a number of other NGO's whom claim the same.

Recognizing that Putin is the president of Russia isn't the same as recognizing the elections as legitimate or fair in any way, that is just recognizing whom to talk to. The whole world recognizes Kim as the powerhouse of North Korea, so there you go, or would you claim that he got into power with fair and open elections: btw his election results were a mere 87,6% for the Workers' Party of Korea, but a nice 100% for Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland

Elections in North Korea are held every four-to-five years for the Supreme People's Assembly (SPA), the country's national legislature, and every four years for Local People's Assemblies.[1][2]

All seats are won by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland.[3] The Workers' Party of Korea dominates the Front and holds 87.5% of the seats, with 7.4% for the Korean Social Democratic Party, 3.2% for the Chondoist Chongu Party, and 1.9% for independent deputies.[4] According to official reports, turnout is near 100%, and approval of the Democratic Front's candidates is unanimous or nearly so.


The 87,6% is so much clearer than the 62,7% Putin's party got in 100 polling stations, almost like Putin's henchman send out a decree, do something like 62,2% or it will be suspicious, and as all good civil servants, they did exactly what they were ordered to, just a little bit too good that it is suspiciously the same :stirthepot: . And since we are comparing numbers, the North Korea elections are far closer to the Moscow ones than the Moscow ones are to the ones in Amsterdam. See what I did there, just went back to the topic at hand. The reason people are protesting in Moscow at the moment and the topic of this discussion.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But far more interesting, so basically what you are saying one moment people are fine with how they are ruled - because it is how they are ruled they are fine with it (just look at that kind of reasoning it is too funny when a 5-year-old says it like that, but an adult, meah, but that is just me), - and the next there is out of the blue a revolution and afterwards everyone is fine with the new rules. That's how your reasoning works? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl



If you are speaking of Ukraine - first, the revolution wasn’t out of blue, but sponsored from abroad, and we all know by whom it was staged. Second - far from everyone was fine with the new rules, and those who weren’t - escaped together with territories they were living in. Or at least tried to.


No, you are dragging Ukraine into this. I was speaking in general, so let's take the 1991 revolution in Russia or the 1917 revolution in ...Russia. Or any revolution, you are talking about the principle, right, so it must go for any situation or you are just talking bullocks. So say which one it is.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Did you read the article that you linked as evidence? If you didn't and I suppose you didn't otherwise it is kind of strange to link to an article that says that the elections were fraudulent, I conveniently highlighted the part for you which did actually research the elections that came to this conclusion. So I am certainly not alone and I could give you a number of other NGO's whom claim the same.


Yes, I read it. A typical Washington think-tank article, which is written to maintain some opinion of possibility that the election is not legitimate. What I gave you was the official result recognized by the whole world, EU’s institutions, based on independent monitoring on-site, by international organizations mandated to do so. For example, OSCE sent their monitors into the country. With the exception of a few interested parties, nobody casts doubt that the result of this election represent the will of Russian nation. MPs from Russia are being accepted in all European Parliament assemblies. And all you have is some article referencing someone in University of Michigan.

Dutchy wrote:
Recognizing that Putin is the president of Russia isn't the same as recognizing the elections as legitimate or fair in any way, that is just recognizing whom to talk to. The whole world recognizes Kim as the powerhouse of North Korea, so there you go, or would you claim that he got into power with fair and open elections: btw his election results were a mere 87,6% for the Workers' Party of Korea, but a nice 100% for Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland


What I said above about Russia and Netherlands, applies to North Korea as well. It’s their country, and it’s up to them who and how runs it. There is no Western business there either. Whom to talk to - doesn’t need official recognition. It’s general practice - in politics they talk to those who actually has influence and makes decisions.

Dutchy wrote:
No, you are dragging Ukraine into this. I was speaking in general, so let's take the 1991 revolution in Russia or the 1917 revolution in ...Russia. Or any revolution, you are talking about the principle, right, so it must go for any situation or you are just talking bullocks. So say which one it is.


Ukraine I gave you as an example. Russia of 1917 and 1991 are two other great ones, when key decisions on who is to run the country are made in a way that isn’t recognized as legitimate by significant chunk of population. Both of those resulted in bloody civil conflicts (large scale or regional) and territorial losses.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Did you read the article that you linked as evidence? If you didn't and I suppose you didn't otherwise it is kind of strange to link to an article that says that the elections were fraudulent, I conveniently highlighted the part for you which did actually research the elections that came to this conclusion. So I am certainly not alone and I could give you a number of other NGO's whom claim the same.


Yes, I read it. A typical Washington think-tank article, which is written to maintain some opinion of possibility that the election is not legitimate. What I gave you was the official result recognized by the whole world, EU’s institutions, based on independent monitoring on-site, by international organizations (OSCE, European Council) mandated to do so. With the exception of a few interested parties, nobody casts doubt that the result of this election represent the will of Russian nation. MPs from Russia are being accepted in all European Parliament assemblies. And all you have is some article referencing someone in University of Michigan.


Ok, the benchmark is how much the government - not the election results, but the government - is recognized by other governments. Ok, you believe the Assad regime should be gone, he was not recognized by a lot of the world's countries, you believe Nicolás Maduro should be gone, and more importantly, if that is your train of thought Russia should get out of Crimea because that is not recognized by anyone whom matters. BAM, see how fast that train of thought is backfiring on you.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Recognizing that Putin is the president of Russia isn't the same as recognizing the elections as legitimate or fair in any way, that is just recognizing whom to talk to. The whole world recognizes Kim as the powerhouse of North Korea, so there you go, or would you claim that he got into power with fair and open elections: btw his election results were a mere 87,6% for the Workers' Party of Korea, but a nice 100% for Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland


What I said above about Russia and Netherlands, applies to North Korea as well. It’s their country, and it’s up to them who and how runs it. There is no Western business there either. Whom to talk to - doesn’t need official recognition. It’s general practice - in politics they talk to those who actually has influence and makes decisions.

Ah here you go. And here we differ, I think dictatorships are bad, I think the Kamir Rouge was a bad regime, I think the Kim regime is bad, I think the Eritrean regime is bad and so on. You are perfectly ok with them because they are in power and it is up to them. The same train of thought goes like this: somebody is held hostage, but this person wants to be there because he is there with his hostage-taker. Sometimes I can't help to think you sincerely believe this crap, kind of like indirectly the Stockholm syndrome, without being taken hostage by Putin directly.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No, you are dragging Ukraine into this. I was speaking in general, so let's take the 1991 revolution in Russia or the 1917 revolution in ...Russia. Or any revolution, you are talking about the principle, right, so it must go for any situation or you are just talking bullocks. So say which one it is.


Ukraine I gave you as an example. Russia of 1917 and 1991 are two other great ones, when key decisions on who is to run the country are made in a way that isn’t recognized as legitimate by significant chunk of population. Both of those resulted in bloody civil conflicts (large scale or regional) and territorial losses.


So it is black and white for you. If someone points a gun at you and to bark like a dog and you do this, it is completely voluntarily. Such a strange reasoning for someone whom claims to live in the free west.

BTW still waiting for proof on all your claims, are you going to continue to ignore that? Please answer otherwise I am expecting to much from you and I will be disappointed.
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, the benchmark is how much the government - not the election results, but the government - is recognized by other governments. Ok, you believe the Assad regime should be gone, he was not recognized by a lot of the world's countries, you believe Nicolás Maduro should be gone, and more importantly, if that is your train of thought Russia should get out of Crimea because that is not recognized by anyone whom matters. BAM, see how fast that train of thought is backfiring on you.



Primary benchmark - recognition of the election process and its outcome by the nation itself. The Russian nation obviously recognized theirs, as well as world’s community. The rest (including the article you gave) is some marginal blah-blah. Same comes to Syria and Venezuela - those nations recognized their elections and their respective leaders (Assad and Maduro). It’s nobody’s business whether or not they should stay or go. And the games by other nations (yours included) of “lost legitimacy”, “regained legitimacy”, “some other guy has legitimacy” should stop and should have never been played in the first place.

Dutchy wrote:
Ah here you go. And here we differ, I think dictatorships are bad, I think the Kamir Rouge was a bad regime, I think the Kim regime is bad, I think the Eritrean regime is bad and so on. You are perfectly ok with them because they are in power and it is up to them. The same train of thought goes like this: somebody is held hostage, but this person wants to be there because he is there with his hostage-taker. Sometimes I can't help to think you sincerely believe this crap, kind of like indirectly the Stockholm syndrome, without being taken hostage by Putin directly.


Whether someone’s government is good or bad, it’s not up to you or me, but up to that nation. Is Kim John Un good or bad for North Koreans? I don’t know, it’s up to them; they need to make this determination. I know only that foreign meddling aimed at removing him won’t make anything any better; there is enough track record to state that. Is Assad good or bad for Syria? Again, I do not know and this is not my business really. But given that he remained in power and is able to walk around Damascus without much security - they probably find him good for themselves. You believe you will stick in, “liberate” the nation and make the nation happy, but in every single case that led to a disaster. The nation itself must come forward and provide their assessment to these deeds, be them good or bad. And they are perfectly capable of doing it without any foreign advice - Georgian state simply kicked out Saakashvili, in Ukraine Poroshenko received 15% - absolute minimum possible for a acting leader (in every society there always are about 10-15% of people always supporting the current government). Yes, this is common end to foreign-instated leaders.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW still waiting for proof on all your claims, are you going to continue to ignore that? Please answer otherwise I am expecting to much from you and I will be disappointed.


What else and proof of what do you need? That “regime change” ideas in Russia are marginal? That those illegal demonstrations are supported by a tiny fraction of society? Election result (0.74%) can’t be clearer on that. And accuracy of those metrics is recognized in Russian society and world community, perhaps except of a few dudes in Michigan and a few other places. I do not see any point in demanding proof of them being wrong or countering statements that marginal. This is their just business; just see an opportunity to get some grant $$$ for their “research” and hence are writing such bullocks. There is nothing more to those articles, same is true about those “well respected NGOs”.
Last edited by anrec80 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So it is black and white for you. If someone points a gun at you and to bark like a dog and you do this, it is completely voluntarily. Such a strange reasoning for someone whom claims to live in the free west.


Who barked at whom where? In Russian elections? In Crimea? 30K Black Sea Fleet sailors can’t possibly “bark” 2 million people into polling stations like what you suggest happened.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:58 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ok, the benchmark is how much the government - not the election results, but the government - is recognized by other governments. Ok, you believe the Assad regime should be gone, he was not recognized by a lot of the world's countries, you believe Nicolás Maduro should be gone, and more importantly, if that is your train of thought Russia should get out of Crimea because that is not recognized by anyone whom matters. BAM, see how fast that train of thought is backfiring on you.


Primary benchmark - recognition of the election process and its outcome by the nation itself. The Russian nation obviously recognized theirs, as well as world’s community. The rest (including the article you gave) is some marginal blah-blah. Same comes to Syria and Venezuela - those nations recognized their elections and their respective leaders (Assad and Maduro). It’s nobody’s business whether or not they should stay or go. And the games by other nations (yours included) of “lost legitimacy”, “regained legitimacy”, “some other guy has legitimacy” should stop and should have never been played in the first place.


:checkmark: If it suits your narrative, outside recognition is the benchmark, if it doesn't matter and other countries should mind their own business. In short, you are not consequent, so your opinion is irrelevant because you have a religion, Putin's narrative.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Ah here you go. And here we differ, I think dictatorships are bad, I think the Kamir Rouge was a bad regime, I think the Kim regime is bad, I think the Eritrean regime is bad and so on. You are perfectly ok with them because they are in power and it is up to them. The same train of thought goes like this: somebody is held hostage, but this person wants to be there because he is there with his hostage-taker. Sometimes I can't help to think you sincerely believe this crap, kind of like indirectly the Stockholm syndrome, without being taken hostage by Putin directly.


Whether someone’s government is good or bad, it’s not up to you or me, but up to that nation. Is Kim John Un good or bad for North Koreans? I don’t know, it’s up to them. Is Assad good or bad for Syria? Again, I do not know and this is not my business really. But given that he remained in power and is able to walk around Damascus without much security - they probably find him good for themselves. You believe you will stick in, “liberate” the nation and make the nation happy, but in every single case that led to a disaster. The nation itself must come forward and provide their assessment to these deeds, be them good or bad. And they are perfectly capable of doing it without any foreign advice - Georgian state simply kicked out Saakashvili, in Ukraine Poroshenko received 15% - absolute minimum possible for a acting leader (in every society there always are about 10-15% of people always supporting the current government). Yes, this is common end to foreign-instated leaders.


And there you have another of the Soviet propaganda tool. Well done, perhaps I will have bingo when this tread is closed because you take it always off topic.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW still waiting for proof on all your claims, are you going to continue to ignore that? Please answer otherwise I am expecting to much from you and I will be disappointed.


What else and proof of what do you need?


Everything you present here as "fact" that needs to be proven, so that is the proof I (and everybody else and the rules of the forum) need.

anrec80 wrote:
That “regime change” ideas in Russia are marginal? That those illegal demonstrations are supported by a tiny fraction of society? Election result (0.74%) can’t be clearer on that. And accuracy of those metrics is recognized in Russian society and world community, perhaps except of a few dudes in Michigan and a few other places. I do not see any point in demanding proof of them being wrong or countering statements that marginal. This is their just business; just see an opportunity to get some grant $$$ for their “research” and hence are writing such bullocks. There is nothing more to those articles.


The elections are rigged so we don't know, now do we. Russians democracy is rated low, so please don't come up with this nonsense, except for a few Putin diehards. Not just by some "dudes" in Michigan whom conduct academic studies, but by lots of NGO's. But perhaps you could find an independent NGO which says that the Russian democracy is vibrant and fair, including all institutions that make up a democracy, elections are just part of it.
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:59 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So it is black and white for you. If someone points a gun at you and to bark like a dog and you do this, it is completely voluntarily. Such a strange reasoning for someone whom claims to live in the free west.


Who barked at whom where? In Russian elections? In Crimea? 30K Black Sea Fleet sailors can’t possibly “bark” 2 million people into polling stations like what you suggest happened.


Oh man, really............... :roll:
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:05 pm

Judging by *most* of the Russian immigrants I am in contact with, I don't believe they can operate with democracy, the corruption and general scoffing at what we consider upstanding civilized behavior is too ingrained. It will take generations to change that. They, like some other societies are probably better off with a strongman at this point.

Besides, didn't this all happen in the 80's? How did that work out?
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: If it suits your narrative, outside recognition is the benchmark, if it doesn't matter and other countries should mind their own business.


Benchmark is internal recognition, not external one - this is what I always kept saying. And yes - if other countries were more mindful of their own problems than flaws in someone else's democracy, the world would have been by far better and safer place. EU still has some shameful and embarrassing issues to work on as well in this area, before they can teach others.

Dutchy wrote:
Everything you present here as "fact" that needs to be proven, so that is the proof I (and everybody else and the rules of the forum) need.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged so we don't know, now do we. Russians democracy is rated low, so please don't come up with this nonsense, except for a few Putin diehards. Not just by some "dudes" in Michigan whom conduct academic studies, but by lots of NGO's. But perhaps you could find an independent NGO which says that the Russian democracy is vibrant and fair, including all institutions that make up a democracy, elections are just part of it.


As I mentioned - In Russia this belief about "rigged elections" is supported by 0.74% of voters. This point of view is as marginal as, say, the viewpoint that Earth is flat or that the Sun and the starts rotate around it. Sure, even in 21st century you can find people believing this way if you look hard enough. However, you do not spend your time disproving them, or expect that someone else does that. Same is true about legitimacy of Russia's elections.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
Not just by some "dudes" in Michigan whom conduct academic studies, but by lots of NGO's. But perhaps you could find an independent NGO which says that the Russian democracy is vibrant and fair, including all institutions that make up a democracy, elections are just part of it.


I have described you my views on these NGOs and "researchers". They do write bullocks, and often they themselves know it. They are simply in business of writing it, they are just making their living. A good example of an NGO is "Syrian observatory for Human Rights", which is run by one person who hasn't even been in Syria for like 15 years. Can this be taken seriously? The real question is - who are the primary grant sponsors of these "researchers" and NGOs.
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:checkmark: If it suits your narrative, outside recognition is the benchmark, if it doesn't matter and other countries should mind their own business.


Benchmark is internal recognition, not external one - this is what I always kept saying. And yes - if other countries were more mindful of their own problems than flaws in someone else's democracy, the world would have been by far better and safer place. EU still has some shameful and embarrassing issues to work on as well in this area, before they can teach others.


Whataboutism at it's finest, right out of the Soviet playbook, well done. You are not perfect and I am not perfect, so you can't say anything about me. But the thing is, of course, that the faults in EU democracy are far less and far less profounded than in an autocracy as Russia is.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Everything you present here as "fact" that needs to be proven, so that is the proof I (and everybody else and the rules of the forum) need.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


So you do not believe you have to back-up your claims, but ask for others to do so :checkmark: Just say that, instead of rolling your virtual eyes, I would kind of respect that in a strange way.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The elections are rigged so we don't know, now do we. Russians democracy is rated low, so please don't come up with this nonsense, except for a few Putin diehards. Not just by some "dudes" in Michigan whom conduct academic studies, but by lots of NGO's. But perhaps you could find an independent NGO which says that the Russian democracy is vibrant and fair, including all institutions that make up a democracy, elections are just part of it.


As I mentioned - In Russia this belief about "rigged elections" is supported by 0.74% of voters. This point of view is as marginal as, say, the viewpoint that Earth is flat or that the Sun and the starts rotate around it. Sure, even in 21st century you can find people believing this way if you look hard enough. However, you do not spend your time disproving them, or expect that someone else does that. Same is true about legitimacy of Russia's elections.


Uhmmm, could you find a university whom actually did research in this and came to this conclusion? Till then, it is not the same now is it. And unfortunately, you still do not know what it is that makes democracy work. Not just elections, but also important to have independent institutions - which Russia lags -, independent and free press, - which Russia lags - independent and uninfluenced justice system - which Russia lags -. So Russia is set up as an autocracy and that's why it is fair to say it is one.

Taking the 0,74% is laughable, the elections are proven rigged, the situation in Russia isn't there to have free elections and it is to one of the candidates whom was actively framed as a criminal and demonized by the Russian state media. Furthermore, you cannot say that if you do not vote for one candidate that you are fine with the situation at large. You truly need a course in reasoning, this is just basic education here, which you apparently have forgotten about, or choose to ignore because you desperately want to defend the indefensible. But I must say it is entertaining at least.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:06 am

Now back at the topic at hand. Good news from Moscow, the fourth consecutive Saturday of protests are allowed by the authorities. 30.000 - 40.000 are said to join the protests. Can anyone remind me how much signatures did these candidates needed to run? ;)

MOSCOW — Thousands of Russians are expected to rally again in Moscow on Saturday to demand free elections despite a police crackdown and a refusal by authorities to meet protesters' demands.

It will be the fourth consecutive week when large numbers of people have taken to the streets of the Russian capital to demand opposition-minded candidates be allowed to run in a Moscow election next month - something the authorities have so far refused to allow.

Saturday's protest has been authorised by city authorities, but a similar protest a week earlier was not and police detained more than 1,000 people, sometimes violently, part of one of the biggest crackdowns on dissent in recent years.


Source New York Times

Bad news, these candidates are still not allowed to run in the elections.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:08 am

Those commie vodka drinkers are acting up again? No surprise there.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Not just by some "dudes" in Michigan whom conduct academic studies, but by lots of NGO's. But perhaps you could find an independent NGO which says that the Russian democracy is vibrant and fair, including all institutions that make up a democracy, elections are just part of it.


I have described you my views on these NGOs and "researchers". They do write bullocks, and often they themselves know it. They are simply in business of writing it, they are just making their living. A good example of an NGO is "Syrian observatory for Human Rights", which is run by one person who hasn't even been in Syria for like 15 years. Can this be taken seriously? The real question is - who are the primary grant sponsors of these "researchers" and NGOs.


Oh man, that is a nice frame, a piece of absolute beauty, but you know what is going to happen now, right? I will mention Human right watch, Amnesty International etc. etc. etc. International organizations as the UN and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) etc. etc. etc. Or the academics. You know organizations whom also have criticized also the west and still do. Organizations paid for by the public and (western) governments.

Not really the same as a person in London with a good network in Syria. So actually your "good example" is actually well-chosen to get an effect, but you must know by now that nobody will take that seriously, so why to make a fool of yourself yet again. You are not taking seriously, thus your propaganda doesn't work here at all.

Anyhow, enough feeding the troll, will keep my responses to you limited.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism at it's finest, right out of the Soviet playbook, well done. You are not perfect and I am not perfect, so you can't say anything about me. But the thing is, of course, that the faults in EU democracy are far less and far less profounded than in an autocracy as Russia is.


Well - this is where I think we can find understanding. Russia and Russians are working on their problems, and Europeans are working on theirs. Without teaching each other how to live. Sounds like we can make a deal here?


Dutchy wrote:
So you do not believe you have to back-up your claims, but ask for others to do so :checkmark: Just say that, instead of rolling your virtual eyes, I would kind of respect that in a strange way.


Dutchy, adequate and reasonable individuals cannot and should not be expected to prove or disprove every single piece of bullocks that comes their way. Simple as that.


Dutchy wrote:
Uhmmm, could you find a university whom actually did research in this and came to this conclusion? Till then, it is not the same now is it. And unfortunately, you still do not know what it is that makes democracy work. Not just elections, but also important to have independent institutions - which Russia lags -, independent and free press, - which Russia lags - independent and uninfluenced justice system - which Russia lags -. So Russia is set up as an autocracy and that's why it is fair to say it is one.

Taking the 0,74% is laughable, the elections are proven rigged, the situation in Russia isn't there to have free elections and it is to one of the candidates whom was actively framed as a criminal and demonized by the Russian state media. Furthermore, you cannot say that if you do not vote for one candidate that you are fine with the situation at large. You truly need a course in reasoning, this is just basic education here, which you apparently have forgotten about, or choose to ignore because you desperately want to defend the indefensible. But I must say it is entertaining at least.


These are election results, where the party supporting those ideas showed its result. There is no need in any university research here; the voters said everything clearly. I can perhaps provide even more details to this. Yabloko ("Apple") there gained 2% - another pro-Western party, but they believe that they should win not on the streets, but on legitimate elections. That means that "regime change" ideas are shared by no more than 1/4 of pro-Western voters in Russia. There is no need in any other "research".

Speaking of press - they have media such as "Echo of Moscow", TV station called "The Rain" - that essentially promote these views, and nobody blocks this media. Their journalists even get accredited to Putin's press conferences and ask questions there directly. It doesn't get any more free for the press than that. In the West however, Russia Today is getting labeled as "foreign agent" in the USA, and finds from British regulators that they do not portray things "balanced" (as believed by British regulators). Hence freedom of press on the West is getting rigged perhaps?
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism at it's finest, right out of the Soviet playbook, well done. You are not perfect and I am not perfect, so you can't say anything about me. But the thing is, of course, that the faults in EU democracy are far less and far less profounded than in an autocracy as Russia is.


Well - this is where I think we can find understanding. Russia and Russians are working on their problems, and Europeans are working on theirs. Without teaching each other how to live. Sounds like we can make a deal here?


Typical, I explain how the Soviet propaganda machine worked and you say, yeah that sounds about right, that is the way forward, great let's do that :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you do not believe you have to back-up your claims, but ask for others to do so :checkmark: Just say that, instead of rolling your virtual eyes, I would kind of respect that in a strange way.


Dutchy, adequate and reasonable individuals cannot and should not be expected to prove or disprove every single piece of bullocks that comes their way. Simple as that.


Check, I will take your advice at heart and label all your "facts" as a piece of bullocks, thanks for your advice man.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Uhmmm, could you find a university whom actually did research in this and came to this conclusion? Till then, it is not the same now is it. And unfortunately, you still do not know what it is that makes democracy work. Not just elections, but also important to have independent institutions - which Russia lags -, independent and free press, - which Russia lags - independent and uninfluenced justice system - which Russia lags -. So Russia is set up as an autocracy and that's why it is fair to say it is one.

Taking the 0,74% is laughable, the elections are proven rigged, the situation in Russia isn't there to have free elections and it is to one of the candidates whom was actively framed as a criminal and demonized by the Russian state media. Furthermore, you cannot say that if you do not vote for one candidate that you are fine with the situation at large. You truly need a course in reasoning, this is just basic education here, which you apparently have forgotten about, or choose to ignore because you desperately want to defend the indefensible. But I must say it is entertaining at least.


These are election results, where the party supporting those ideas showed its result. There is no need in any university research here; the voters said everything clearly. I can perhaps provide even more details to this. Yabloko ("Apple") there gained 2% - another pro-Western party, but they believe that they should win not on the streets, but on legitimate elections. That means that "regime change" ideas are shared by no more than 1/4 of pro-Western voters in Russia. There is no need in any other "research".

Speaking of press - they have media such as "Echo of Moscow", TV station called "The Rain" - that essentially promote these views, and nobody blocks this media. Their journalists even get accredited to Putin's press conferences and ask questions there directly. It doesn't get any more free for the press than that. In the West however, Russia Today is getting labeled as "foreign agent" in the USA, and finds from British regulators that they do not portray things "balanced" (as believed by British regulators). Hence freedom of press on the West is getting rigged perhaps?


Just brilliant how you are spinning everything your Putin way, I kind of respect your neck of propagandism, well-done, man. But like I said, I will take your advice at heart and label this "fact" as a piece of bullocks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm

So people might wonder how the demonstrations went today:
> almost 250 arrested.
> 50.000 protestors (Russian police said it were 20.000)
> lawyer Ljoebov Sobol, whom was one of the people whom was booted as a candidate for the elections in Moscow, was arrested in her office before the demonstration today by full gear police. She posted a video of this rate at Twitter
> OVD-Info says at least 55 people were arrested in Sint-Petersburg, ten in Moscow and seven in Rostov

So the protest is spreading and the authorities still arrest people at random.

source in Dutch

All interesting developments.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So people might wonder how the demonstrations went today:
> almost 250 arrested.
> 50.000 protestors (Russian police said it were 20.000)
> lawyer Ljoebov Sobol, whom was one of the people whom was booted as a candidate for the elections in Moscow, was arrested in her office before the demonstration today by full gear police. She posted a video of this rate at Twitter
> OVD-Info says at least 55 people were arrested in Sint-Petersburg, ten in Moscow and seven in Rostov

So the protest is spreading and the authorities still arrest people at random.

source in Dutch

All interesting developments.


Interesting indeed. Even when given an approval for the event, these people couldn’t help it but again organize something illegal after. I probably can believe official police numbers since there are metal detectors upon entry (this is a requirement). Yes, law requires no hoods, no covered faces, nothing like baseball bat, sticks, knives - police is also checking bags for those.

Here is an interesting Deutsche Welle article related how one of the arrested protesters sees the whole thing. It’s in Russian, but it’s German media and there is Google Translate. I tried to search for similar material in English media, but couldn’t find anything similar. Per our hero, Navalny and Sobol are responsible for this situation, people in jail and leading people to break the law, as opposed to following the law.

https://www.dw.com/ru/фомин-возложил-на ... a-49957886
 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:05 pm

Nice try, this was an article from yesterday, not of the events of today. Anyhow 250 more arrested and for the most part were legally participating in a sanctioned protest.

The article is hardly understandable with google translate, sorry.

But anyhow, anything to add to the 50.000 people protesting to get a candidate on the ballot or that another candidate was arrested with an arrest team, a lawyer if I may add.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:50 am

While i am not living in russia and do not have deep knowledge about russian politics, i can imagine that youtube videos of costly houses of putin and friends does not help. I assume that arresting the people distributing the info now start to decrease the trust in putin. Until a few years ago the deal was to increase livingstandard for russian middle class. Now i do not really know why most russians votes for putin and his friends.


Anyone that can explain this for me?
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada.

I wouldn't talk of Poland as a powerhouse either...its like saying Crimea is awesome because in 5 years everything has gone up. Well yeah, throw enough money into it and it will.


Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada? Might be in your case, I don't know, but as we all know that is anecdotical evidence at best, so it is meaningless. If your statement was true, then the numbers would reflect it, right? So let me help you to prove it: look up the numbers of Canadian moving to Russia to pursue a career, and the number of Russians moving to Canada doing the same. I have one example for you already: A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

In short, I truly want to believe you, so back-up your claims with independent evidence.


Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:29 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada.

I wouldn't talk of Poland as a powerhouse either...its like saying Crimea is awesome because in 5 years everything has gone up. Well yeah, throw enough money into it and it will.


Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada? Might be in your case, I don't know, but as we all know that is anecdotical evidence at best, so it is meaningless. If your statement was true, then the numbers would reflect it, right? So let me help you to prove it: look up the numbers of Canadian moving to Russia to pursue a career, and the number of Russians moving to Canada doing the same. I have one example for you already: A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

In short, I truly want to believe you, so back-up your claims with independent evidence.


Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population


:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada? Might be in your case, I don't know, but as we all know that is anecdotical evidence at best, so it is meaningless. If your statement was true, then the numbers would reflect it, right? So let me help you to prove it: look up the numbers of Canadian moving to Russia to pursue a career, and the number of Russians moving to Canada doing the same. I have one example for you already: A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

In short, I truly want to believe you, so back-up your claims with independent evidence.


Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population


:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.




I accidentally clicked on this thread but just happened to see my user name come up. But when have I claimed all this crap?

A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

 
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:12 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population


:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.




I accidentally clicked on this thread but just happened to see my user name come up. But when have I claimed all this crap?

A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.



Sorry my bad, I meant anrec80 of course.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:21 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.




I accidentally clicked on this thread but just happened to see my user name come up. But when have I claimed all this crap?

A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.



Sorry my bad, I meant anrec80 of course.



Yep all good mistakes happen no harm no foul.
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:33 am

olle wrote:
While i am not living in russia and do not have deep knowledge about russian politics, i can imagine that youtube videos of costly houses of putin and friends does not help. I assume that arresting the people distributing the info now start to decrease the trust in putin. Until a few years ago the deal was to increase livingstandard for russian middle class. Now i do not really know why most russians votes for putin and his friends.


Anyone that can explain this for me?


Sure. Because despite visible corruption, actions are being taken, high profile arrests which show that something is being done. Personally I wish more was being done.

Since the western regime's compaign against Russia that started with Khodorkovsky's arrest back in 2004, it was been clear that there is a campaign against Russia. So that adds support right there. Since sanctions against Russia came into place the government launched a pretty successful program for replacing imports. Anyone in the agricultural industry saw and felt the results for themselves.

But mainly the support is due to a large ammount of the population remembering the 90's when these fools had power. Had the opposition taken another approach, not one that is pro-western they may have had some sizable support. But as long as they have support from media and NGO's based in the west, they will have no support from the general population in Russia and have no chances of getting anywhere, other than pocketing some grants.
I say again - Support of these dudes from the west discredits them in the eyes of ordinary Russians more than any trolls/authorities could do.

Btw, the mess that became of Ukraine after similar protests led to a coup also are a good reminder of what can happen if such goofs are allowed to have any kind of power
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
Posts: 1915
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:33 am

olle wrote:
While i am not living in russia and do not have deep knowledge about russian politics, i can imagine that youtube videos of costly houses of putin and friends does not help. I assume that arresting the people distributing the info now start to decrease the trust in putin. Until a few years ago the deal was to increase livingstandard for russian middle class. Now i do not really know why most russians votes for putin and his friends.


Anyone that can explain this for me?


Sure. Because despite visible corruption, actions are being taken, high profile arrests which show that something is being done. Personally I wish more was being done.

Since the western regime's compaign against Russia that started with Khodorkovsky's arrest back in 2004, it was been clear that there is a campaign against Russia. So that adds support right there. Since sanctions against Russia came into place the government launched a pretty successful program for replacing imports. Anyone in the agricultural industry saw and felt the results for themselves.

But mainly the support is due to a large ammount of the population remembering the 90's when these fools had power. Had the opposition taken another approach, not one that is pro-western they may have had some sizable support. But as long as they have support from media and NGO's based in the west, they will have no support from the general population in Russia and have no chances of getting anywhere, other than pocketing some grants.
I say again - Support of these dudes from the west discredits them in the eyes of ordinary Russians more than any trolls/authorities could do.

Btw, the mess that became of Ukraine after similar protests led to a coup also are a good reminder of what can happen if such goofs are allowed to have any kind of power
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada? Might be in your case, I don't know, but as we all know that is anecdotical evidence at best, so it is meaningless. If your statement was true, then the numbers would reflect it, right? So let me help you to prove it: look up the numbers of Canadian moving to Russia to pursue a career, and the number of Russians moving to Canada doing the same. I have one example for you already: A101 claims to be Canadian passport holder, besides a Ukrainian and he says he feels Russian, yet he claims to be pursuing a career in America, not Russia. So there you have another piece anecdotical evidence.

In short, I truly want to believe you, so back-up your claims with independent evidence.


Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population


:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.


Yup.

I posted a link which shows that Russia is #3 in the World when it comes to foreign born persons. But that isn't evidence to you...

Well, you accuse other posters of being trolls. However I don't think there is a bigger troll than yourself on A.net (not counting the Trump threads).
You apparently are Dutch, living in the Netherlands however you seek out any Russia related news and post it, hoping to bait a several-page rant that you know will go nowhere.

Anrec is not the troll, the troll is you, you are just baiting him.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:29 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Sure.

In my case (pilot) I make the same be it in Canada or in Russia, but cost of living is at least twice less, with both places being "hungry" for pilots. But that's my situation.
As far as others go, I have friends in both countries, I was in Canada last month and see where they were last time I was there (couple years ago) and where they are now. Very few made any progress in terms of quality of life. Friends here in Russia with a few exceptions have some consistent growth in the quality of their lives.

I don't have figures on how many Russians left for Canada and vice versa, but judging by the large amount of foreign born people in Russia (more than Canada by number, but less by percentage of total population), Russia isn't that bad of a place. And this with Russia's tough immigration law. A Canadian friend of mine for example has relocated here and lived here for about 5 years on work visas, married a Russian friend of mine over a year ago, learned Russian to a passable level, but still is jumping through hoops to try to get TEMPORARY residence permit!
While her husband could more easily apply and get Permanent Residence in Canada just based on their marriage. All this while she is white, highly qualified (two diplomas, and her work visas were "Highly Qualified Specialist" visas, while someone who immigrates from Uzbekistan and can speak Russian, with barely a high school diploma who can sweep the pavement will have an easier process.
I was amazed and upset by this, but apparently there are supposed to be changes to make it easier. We will see.

Btw, I personally don't know anyone from Russia that immigrated to Canada recently. Plenty in the 90's and the first half of the 00's, but none personally since.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... population


:checkmark: all anecdotical which you luckily admit, thus no evidence to back-up your claim: "Plenty of opportunities in Russia. More than in the other country who's passport I happen to hold - Canada."

So we can leave it with that, consider it as bullocks, as adviced by A101.


Yup.

I posted a link which shows that Russia is #3 in the World when it comes to foreign born persons. But that isn't evidence to you...

Well, you accuse other posters of being trolls. However I don't think there is a bigger troll than yourself on A.net (not counting the Trump threads).
You apparently are Dutch, living in the Netherlands however you seek out any Russia related news and post it, hoping to bait a several-page rant that you know will go nowhere.

Anrec is not the troll, the troll is you, you are just baiting him.


You made a specific claim about Canada and Russia and opportunities, 3rd in the world when it comes to foreign borns is inconsequential, so no it isn't evidence of Russia having more opportunities than Canada. Sorry to call you out on your claim and sorry you cannot prove it, but no need to lash out on me like that, you did it on yourself by making claims you cannot back up.

And then you go to the next step accusing me of trolling, fine go ahead, it doesn't make sense but if it makes you feel better, no harm was done, I know where it comes from.

And no, I do not seek out any Russian news, I see these protests in Moscow to continue, if your statement was true, then, mate, I would have posted it weeks ago, sorry to disappoint you. And why Russia, well Russia fascinates me and 2nd your Putin's regime wants to be a world player, well criticism comes with that, especially what the Putin regime has done to the stability in Europe and some other countries. And I must say it is hilarious how some people try to defend the indefensible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:50 am

That is a cute one-sided response, tu204.

tu204 wrote:
Sure. Because despite visible corruption, actions are being taken, high profile arrests which show that something is being done. Personally I wish more was being done.


So you which the Putin clan gone, the largest corruption in Russia at the moment. Good to hear. The only ones arrested are the ones whom don't fall in line with the Russian regime.

tu204 wrote:
Since the western regime's compaign against Russia that started with Khodorkovsky's arrest back in 2004, it was been clear that there is a campaign against Russia. So that adds support right there. Since sanctions against Russia came into place the government launched a pretty successful program for replacing imports. Anyone in the agricultural industry saw and felt the results for themselves.


Calimero syndrome. There is no campaign against Russia. There is. however, reactions against Russian policies, especially abroad. If you annex another country, you get sanctions. If anything it should have been harsher and when the Putin regime did destabilize Georgia.
And for the successful program for the agricultural industry, good for them, long overdue I would say. I wish the Russian people well and that is what you fail to understand. Many Russians on and in other places seem to identify with the Russian regime. If someone has rightfully criticism on the Putin regime, they take it personally.

tu204 wrote:
But mainly the support is due to a large ammount of the population remembering the 90's when these fools had power. Had the opposition taken another approach, not one that is pro-western they may have had some sizable support. But as long as they have support from media and NGO's based in the west, they will have no support from the general population in Russia and have no chances of getting anywhere, other than pocketing some grants.


They have no support from Russian state media, that is the propaganda channel of the Putin regime. If you mean by Pro-western: a pro-democratic, pro-fair, pro-rule of law and anti-corruption, anti-autocratic and anti-war-like mentality than ok, it is a pro-western stand. I would call it a bit to move forward in a fair society. But a very nice frame, because framing it like this you can never have a stand about anything with the human right in mind because it will be all labeled, pro-western.

tu204 wrote:
I say again - Support of these dudes from the west discredits them in the eyes of ordinary Russians more than any trolls/authorities could do.


That is indeed the most unfortunate consequence, but what to do, have no criticism on the Putin regime at all? Just let him destabilize other countries, invade and annex them at will, shoot down airliners and say nothing? But indeed, nothing works better than just create an outside enemy to unite a group. The strategy of the Putin regime. When domestically is turns bad, just destabilize another country and you know the world is going to reject and just frame that in the right way for the state media which many Russians rely on for their news anyway. So, yeah, a very effective method, tried over and over again, ever since Putin came into power with the Chechen campaign, based on a lie, the FSB Bombings in Moscow.

tu204 wrote:
Btw, the mess that became of Ukraine after similar protests led to a coup also are a good reminder of what can happen if such goofs are allowed to have any kind of power


no, Russia came steering up the pot in Ukraine, how typical to "forget" about that part.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:40 pm

The opposition in Russia don't get mentioned into Russia nationwide news. I have the impression that in west we get more more info about Russia opposition then most Russian citizens east of Ural.

That considered it is showing that the Putin regime now is so nervous about them. Something is not all happiness in the Russian "Tsar" empire.
 
olle
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:50 pm

Ukraine and Belarus has been during long time "colonies" since 1992.

While Belarus is kept as a strict dictarorship and in practise extension of Russia, Ukraine kept its elected parlaiment. Suddenly the people in big parts of Ukraine started to request to get closer to EU and special esatern Europe while they have lots of connections there. The Ukraine president at the time a Russia puppit, said no. The rest is history, with Russia invasions or support of pro russia militia.

the strategy went fine until MH17 https://images.app.goo.gl/cwJAtDXRs3irYxsh8
 
anrec80
Posts: 1992
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:44 pm

olle wrote:
While i am not living in russia and do not have deep knowledge about russian politics, i can imagine that youtube videos of costly houses of putin and friends does not help. I assume that arresting the people distributing the info now start to decrease the trust in putin. Until a few years ago the deal was to increase livingstandard for russian middle class. Now i do not really know why most russians votes for putin and his friends.


Anyone that can explain this for me?


Let me also try. Putin returned Russians belief in themselves, in themselves as the nation. The world is back to recognizing their country as a major power. Russians see that decades-long problems, especially poverty, corruption, inefficiency of institutions - are being tackled aggressively. Governance quality is improving fast. They see that government is doing a great job making sure that they are determining how they should live in Russia, and not someone from outside - which is exactly subject of this thread.

And society certainly values that, especially after Kiev maidan. Even liberal supporters started saying “thank you Putin and government for not letting Ukrainian stuff happen here”.

And the most important - they feel confident in their and their country’s tomorrow, and feel they can live in their country and raise family there. And this is something far from granted in Europe - in too many European nations people have to go elsewhere to earn basic living.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada?


First and foremost - what opportunities are we talking about? What kind? In Canada (and the USA for that reason, but less) bulk of opportunities is in McDonald's and the likes. When they are talking about job growth - this is then only place where this growth is.

And now let’s talk about opportunities for young Canadians to enter the ranks of middle class. I am still feeling sad when I recall a conversation with one of my former classmates - also as software engineer, just as me. He now lives in Vancouver, BC. I am asking him:
- Where do you live?
- Me and a few other roommates are renting a house together.
- Really? Dude, you are well into 30s - it’s time to think about your own place, isn’t it? You will need one paid for by the time you approach retirement age, won’t you? It’s time to think something - a house takes really long time to pay off.
He gives me a strange look and says:
- WTF? Do you know what you are talking about? You have heard how much it costs here to buy, right? It’s not for regular mortals. Nobody looks that way, don’t think about it and nobody talks about it. Sort of taboo’d topic. The only example I know that our director bought a really old house 1.5 hrs away, but they are really well off. Who are all these towers for - I don’t know.

So this is an example. Unlike the government in Ottawa, Moscow government at least does pay attention at housing issues, makes sure construction is taking place at required pace, mortgages are accessible and available, etc. In Ottawa, they care about this greenhouse crap, European choice of Ukraine and democracy in Russia by far more than where young Canadians will like and how will they start their families.

And similar conversations I’ve had with a local school principal - “these poor kids, what awaits for them? Where are the opportunities for them and where will they go?” . Any more questions on opportunities?
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:26 pm

olle wrote:
The opposition in Russia don't get mentioned into Russia nationwide news. I have the impression that in west we get more more info about Russia opposition then most Russian citizens east of Ural.



This is not true at all - non-systemic opposition gets quite a bit of attention in Russian federal media. And in Western media - yes, this is the primary topic, this is how Western journalists see the situation in Russia. They aren't there to show anything good - major infrastructure projects, Crimean bridge, investments into the cities, new technologies - and MS-21 with its D-14 engine certainly are worth mentioning.
 
anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And why Russia, well Russia fascinates me and 2nd your Putin's regime wants to be a world player, well criticism comes with that, especially what the Putin regime has done to the stability in Europe and some other countries.


And what was it so horrible Putin did to stability of your Europe? Is it that significant chunk of European population wants to break away from EU? Well - these are EU's leadership questions, not Russian.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:39 pm

anrec80 wrote:
The world is back to recognizing their country as a major power.


Nope. regional power, not a major power, or are you calling all regional powers as a major power, then you would be spot on.

anrec80 wrote:
They see that government is doing a great job making sure that they are determining how they should live in Russia,


Yes, we agree, the Putin regime does a great job in making sure they determine how Russians should lead their lives, welcome to an autocracy. You gave a perfect definition of it.

anrec80 wrote:
and not someone from outside - which is exactly subject of this thread.


No, it isn't, it is about Russian protesting the Moscow city officials blocking opposition candidates and nothing else. If you would like to discuss anything else about Russia, you are welcome to open up another thread.

Even liberal supporters started saying “thank you Putin and government for not letting Ukrainian stuff happen here”.


Link please, or is it evident that this is bullocks?
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:46 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Really. Would you mind telling us how you read that conclusion that there are more opportunities in Russia than in Canada?


First and foremost - what opportunities are we talking about? What kind?


You are barking up the wrong tree, I don't know what opportunities Tu204 is talking about, it was his claim, not mine.

But since you seem to have the same train of thought, you might want to tell us all, why you aren't living in Russia - so you say - but in NYC - so you say, if opportunities are so great in Russia. But more importantly, could you expend your anecdotical evidence with some real numbers from an unbiased source, Tu204 couldn't, so perhaps you can? Looking forward to it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:48 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And why Russia, well Russia fascinates me and 2nd your Putin's regime wants to be a world player, well criticism comes with that, especially what the Putin regime has done to the stability in Europe and some other countries.


And what was it so horrible Putin did to stability of your Europe? Is it that significant chunk of European population wants to break away from EU? Well - these are EU's leadership questions, not Russian.


:roll: Moldovia, Ukraine all part of Europe. Sending its troll army to persuade the European public opinion. Backing certain extreme right parties within the EU. Do you want me to continue?
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:50 pm

anrec80 wrote:
This is not true at all - non-systemic opposition gets quite a bit of attention in Russian federal media.


A clarification question, what is non-systemic opposition?
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anrec80
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:52 pm

olle wrote:
Ukraine and Belarus has been during long time "colonies" since 1992.

While Belarus is kept as a strict dictarorship and in practise extension of Russia, Ukraine kept its elected parlaiment. Suddenly the people in big parts of Ukraine started to request to get closer to EU and special esatern Europe while they have lots of connections there. The Ukraine president at the time a Russia puppit, said no. The rest is history, with Russia invasions or support of pro russia militia.


I don't think that Russia takes any steps in putting its Ukrainian strategy in place at this time. I do believe one exists though, but not sure it's even needed. Ukraine has nowhere else to go simply. It's been re-iterated yet again that nobody expects it in neither NATO nor EU. It's obvious by now that EU will not open their markets and provide opportunities for Ukrainians to stay in their country. Economy and statehood at the mean time continue to degrade. Once Turkish and Nord Streams will complete - the territory will lose the remainders of its value to anyone.

What's inevitable eventually - is that Ukraine's neighbors (Russia and EU) gather at the table to decide what to do with all that, and if they can reach any agreement (similar to a recent one on Moldova). It very well may end that each Ukraine's neighbor will pick up regions of the country they are interested in - Hungary, Poland, Romania, Russia each have their minorities there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Unrest in Moscow

Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:17 pm

anrec80 wrote:
olle wrote:
Ukraine and Belarus has been during long time "colonies" since 1992.

While Belarus is kept as a strict dictarorship and in practise extension of Russia, Ukraine kept its elected parlaiment. Suddenly the people in big parts of Ukraine started to request to get closer to EU and special esatern Europe while they have lots of connections there. The Ukraine president at the time a Russia puppit, said no. The rest is history, with Russia invasions or support of pro russia militia.


I don't think that Russia takes any steps in putting its Ukrainian strategy in place at this time. I do believe one exists though, but not sure it's even needed. Ukraine has nowhere else to go simply. It's been re-iterated yet again that nobody expects it in neither NATO nor EU. It's obvious by now that EU will not open their markets and provide opportunities for Ukrainians to stay in their country. Economy and statehood at the mean time continue to degrade. Once Turkish and Nord Streams will complete - the territory will lose the remainders of its value to anyone.

What's inevitable eventually - is that Ukraine's neighbors (Russia and EU) gather at the table to decide what to do with all that, and if they can reach any agreement (similar to a recent one on Moldova). It very well may end that each Ukraine's neighbor will pick up regions of the country they are interested in - Hungary, Poland, Romania, Russia each have their minorities there.


Link please to the deal struck in Moldovia, can't seem to find it.
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