Concierge
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:47 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Concierge wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Then you're a dumb one at that. I'm a Hoosier too, and there's nothing Indiana does to allow for shootings to happen in Chicago. Almost every murder in Chicago is with a handgun. Handguns can only legally be purchased in the state you reside in. So it's already illegal for an Illinois resident to come to Indiana to buy a handgun. People who do illegal things aren't going to be stopped by another unenforceable law.

If liberals cared so much about gun violence, they'd stop going after an "Assault Weapon Ban," and start going after handguns. 96% of gun violence is with handguns. But liberals don't care about black on black crime, they just care about what gets airtime on the evening news and the 24/7 news cycle.


Well aren't you special! Start with an insult, then make a statement of opinion that can't be proven or disproven.

You could look up the source of handguns used in crimes in....never mind, you know better.

And you can read the minds of 'liberals'. How exciting for you!

I concede to your superior knowledge and apparent mind-reading skills.


So your proposal is to add another law, when the criminals already don't follow the law? Stupid is as stupid does. I'm open to common sense talks, if we would start by, say enforcing the laws on the books...


And again - you're open to common sense talks - right after more insults. Reading my mind for a proposal i didn't make. Well, bless your heart.
 
bennett123
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:21 am

For me the interesting bit is the leader of the Free World being warned off by a pressure group.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:09 am

seb146 wrote:
Military weapons should not be in private citizen's hands.


They're not (aside for special exemptions and potential illegal activity).

Still amazes me to see the willingness to trample on extraordinary rights because of an irrational fear.
 
seb146
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:13 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Military weapons should not be in private citizen's hands.


They're not (aside for special exemptions and potential illegal activity).

Still amazes me to see the willingness to trample on extraordinary rights because of an irrational fear.


El Paso, Gilroy, Dayton, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Stoneman are not "irrational fear" but military grade killing equipment in the hands of private citizens. It amazes me that some people believe murder and guns are more important and everyone else should just be dismissed.

This is what I am talking about. Even self proclaimed encyclopedias of guns don't know what they are talking about.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:37 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Military weapons should not be in private citizen's hands.


They're not (aside for special exemptions and potential illegal activity).

Still amazes me to see the willingness to trample on extraordinary rights because of an irrational fear.


Hmmm, so in that case, I repeat my previous query:

Feelz about guns do not change the reality - after the Heller case, it was clearly established that regulation has a role in 2nd amendment considerations. So let’s play the “answer a question from a federal or SCOTUS justice” game.

Since you argue we are guarding against burgeoning tyranny, that begs this question in court:

‘by what armed mechanism can you identify federal actions currently exercised as instruments of a tyrannical state?’
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
olle
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checksn

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:36 pm

seb146 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Military weapons should not be in private citizen's hands.


They're not (aside for special exemptions and potential illegal activity).

Still amazes me to see the willingness to trample on extraordinary rights because of an irrational fear.


El Paso, Gilroy, Dayton, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Stoneman are not "irrational fear" but military grade killing equipment in the hands of private citizens. It amazes me that some people believe murder and guns are more important and everyone else should just be dismissed.

This is what I am talking about. Even self proclaimed encyclopedias of guns don't know what they are talking about.



I think that the gun violence in USA and partly the rest of the world have changed from a group of crazy lunatics getting a weapon and killing a group of people hurting them to terrorism.

Before it was a of some reason hurt studend killing people in his school with the gun his father kept for security.

Then came islamistvterrorism where social media run terrorist groups ran its bussiness with the resistance abc. No organization that fbi or similar organisation can infiltrate and destroy.

Now come the extreme right or nro nazists and cooy a success model. But they have as it seems more financial backing and noone can like with islamists see a dark skinnedperson with barb and feel unsafe. They look like the rest of us in the street. And major powers like russia administration and usa administration even seems to support them.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
El Paso, Gilroy, Dayton, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Stoneman are not "irrational fear" but military grade killing equipment in the hands of private citizens. It amazes me that some people believe murder and guns are more important and everyone else should just be dismissed.

This is what I am talking about. Even self proclaimed encyclopedias of guns don't know what they are talking about.


Quit making false statements. "Military-grade" is highly regulated and unavailable to everyone outside the military expect a select few. The firearms you and I can buy at the store are not "military-grade". Period.

You are more likely to die due to a hammer or blunt object than an "assault" rifle. We only have to ask one question. Is it rational to be more afraid of weapons that are less likely to kill you? Clearly the answer is no. Why are you so afraid of objects that are statistically much less dangerous to you? My question remains - why do you want to give up precious rights because of an irrational fear?
 
seb146
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
El Paso, Gilroy, Dayton, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Stoneman are not "irrational fear" but military grade killing equipment in the hands of private citizens. It amazes me that some people believe murder and guns are more important and everyone else should just be dismissed.

This is what I am talking about. Even self proclaimed encyclopedias of guns don't know what they are talking about.


Quit making false statements. "Military-grade" is highly regulated and unavailable to everyone outside the military expect a select few.


They why are so many murdered in such a short period of time as compared to when we had an assault weapons ban?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
seb146
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:37 pm

It looks like NRA actually DID support gun control at one point

https://www.history.com/news/black-pant ... MBN2yMUOt0

Of course, it was to keep Black Panthers from stockpiling weapons but now that white people demand all guns all the time.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
stratclub
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:57 pm

bennett123 wrote:
For me the interesting bit is the leader of the Free World being warned off by a pressure group.

Not really. The NRA is just pushing their agenda that firearm ownership should be devoid of any sort of regulation. The Brady Bill is a great example of the NRA's efforts fighting any sort of common sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Han ... ssociation
 
winginit
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:11 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Military weapons should not be in private citizen's hands.


They're not (aside for special exemptions and potential illegal activity).

Still amazes me to see the willingness to trample on extraordinary rights because of an irrational fear.


Do you not yourself justify private gun ownership using the irrational fear that the government might get so oppressive and out of hand that an (inevitably futile) violent overthrow (using guns) would be necessary?

Pot. Kettle.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:50 am

seb146 wrote:
They why are so many murdered in such a short period of time as compared to when we had an assault weapons ban?


Your question would have teeth if it were true. The previous ban was a statistical failure. Interestingly the highest profile shooting took place under the ban. A new bill would be even more misguided as millions more are in circulation. Are you going to answer the question?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:57 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
They why are so many murdered in such a short period of time as compared to when we had an assault weapons ban?


Your question would have teeth if it were true. The previous ban was a statistical failure. Interestingly the highest profile shooting took place under the ban. A new bill would be even more misguided as millions more are in circulation. Are you going to answer the question?


Are you going to answer my question above about tyranny? This is the second go-around already.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MSPNWA
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:39 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Are you going to answer my question above about tyranny? This is the second go-around already.


To save you repeating your posts, ask a valid question first. Then you may get an answer. Your premise (burgeoning tyranny) isn't accurate. That is not a required implication.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:42 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Are you going to answer my question above about tyranny? This is the second go-around already.


To save you repeating your posts, ask a valid question first. Then you may get an answer. Your premise (burgeoning tyranny) isn't accurate. That is not a required implication.


Nice try - but the question is valid. You have stated time and again you need protection against tyranny. Heller and other decisions say reasoned regulation is permissible.

Your side will be called upon in court to present examples or evidence of how firearms others seek to restrict remain necessary to ward off state tyranny. If you cannot define what form this state oppression would take, how can a fair ruling be possible?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Tugger
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:54 pm

More guns, more anything doesn't reduce the incident of the use of that thing. Guns are fine for legal ownership and the fact that there are millions in circulation is also fine. The key thing is guns owners want to follow the law and be legal owners of their firearms and so will follow the law. It is that simple.

Change the laws and owners will comply and over the years the situation will improve. And if it doesn't make more adjustments.

A simple start is to end side sales at shows, personal inheritance etc. without an appropriate background check. And simply make the owner of the firearm liable far any problems if they pass on a firearm improperly.

Another thing to do is to increase the tax on the firearm. Begin a fund to cover the cost of gun deaths, taxing firearms is constitutionally acceptable. Just like any item, there are costs that need to be covered and they should be covered by those that use them (the same goes for pretty much all of our citizens "rights", the public pays for what they use one way of the other). In this case, like tobacco, there is a known item causing damage and so that item is what bears the cost.

Two simple things that will begin (not solve) to improve the situation. There are more, but start with something first and move from there.

I personally like the militia or family rule, someone takes responsibility for your use and handling of a gun, the public controls who gets and uses a firearm, and you need that approval first. No government intrusion, the public/family/militia take responsibility. Oh by the way, that is why states like Wyoming and Vermont etc. with high gun ownership have low rates of related deaths, overwhelmingly someone teaches the person getting the gun how to treat and use it. And no one allows a moron who doesn't respect the weapon, who just flings a gun around to be with them. Again, coming from a hunting family I know this is true.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
seb146
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
They why are so many murdered in such a short period of time as compared to when we had an assault weapons ban?


Your question would have teeth if it were true. The previous ban was a statistical failure. Interestingly the highest profile shooting took place under the ban. A new bill would be even more misguided as millions more are in circulation. Are you going to answer the question?


https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/75065617 ... -it-expire

The number of mass shootings increased after Republicans allowed the assault weapons ban to expire. The number of dead continue to climb because Republicans refuse to do anything but think and pray.

If we work within the framework of the Second Amendment and the intent of the Founding Fathers, what well regulated militia do you belong to that you need multiple high capacity weapons? Further, before high capacity weapons became widely available because Republicans demand all guns all the time everywhere, the body count from mass shootings was significantly less. These are statistics readily available.

EDIT:

I have scrolled through the thread and have not seen a question you asked. Are you asking why I value my life and have a "fear" of not wanting to be gunned down while walking through a mall or farmer's market or sitting in a class room? Are you asking why I dare value my life above military grade weapons? Is that your question?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dragon-wings
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:11 am

Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
MSPNWA
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:45 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Nice try - but the question is valid. You have stated time and again you need protection against tyranny. Heller and other decisions say reasoned regulation is permissible.

Sorry, it's not. You have a incorrect premise as the foundation of your question.

seb146 wrote:


Seriously, you cite a biased source that still has to admit that there's no definitive statistical success (in other words, statistical failure) under the ban? Thanks for backing me up.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:50 am

dragon-wings wrote:


Of course - caving is what he does. He caved to financial institutions in the US, which is why he needed loans from DB, Russians and Saudis. He caved to who knows how many local authorities around the world, which is why he only has hotels in a handful of luxury markets compared to major chains. He has caved to Bibi, caved to MBS, caved to the Chamber of Commerce on cheap labor, caved on the deficit, caved to Chairman Kim - and now crassly caves to the NRA to secure support in the next campaign.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:56 am

Background checks are worthless. If an illegal tries to buy a gun legally, ICE can't be notified. Anyone else see a problem with this. This is a concerted, biased effort. The Philadelphia shooter, Maurice Hill should be able to have a gun, yet he does, and crap like this takes place. The problems isn't the guns, it is society. Deny it all you want,but that is the way things are going. There is no respect for authority, everything is a race issue. Drugs are illegal, yet they still exist
 
cledaybuck
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:35 pm

extender wrote:
Drugs are illegal, yet they still exist
Give me a break. Lots of things are illegal, but still exist/happen. Doesn't mean it should all become legal.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Can someone tell me why nuclear weapons should be illegal?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:52 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Can someone tell me why nuclear weapons should be illegal?


If it floats your boat, feel free to make one.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:35 pm

So Trump the coward backed down again. At least we can add willful accomplice when the next mass shooting occurs to him and his staff.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Trump can cure cancer and world hunger, some would still be outraged. There is an issue much deeper than guns, take care of that first.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:40 pm

extender wrote:
Trump can cure cancer and world hunger, some would still be outraged. There is an issue much deeper than guns, take care of that first.


Trump can;t cure cancer and hunger.
1. He is not a doctor
2. He is not a farmer
3. He doesn't hunt.

Everyone would be outraged of did cure cancer and world hunger, because it would be impossible.

You are correct that their is a deeper issue. There are mental problems of delusion deep in the GOP and gun lobby.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:32 pm

extender wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Can someone tell me why nuclear weapons should be illegal?


If it floats your boat, feel free to make one.

Well since you are an anarchist at least you are consistent. Useless, but consistent. Never could understand anarchists since you can seldom actually have a good coherent conversation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
cledaybuck
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:54 pm

extender wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Can someone tell me why nuclear weapons should be illegal?


If it floats your boat, feel free to make one.

That would be against the law. Seems like an infringement against an arm to me.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Trump can cure cancer and world hunger, some would still be outraged. There is an issue much deeper than guns, take care of that first.


Trump can;t cure cancer and hunger.
1. He is not a doctor
2. He is not a farmer
3. He doesn't hunt.

Everyone would be outraged of did cure cancer and world hunger, because it would be impossible.

You are correct that their is a deeper issue. There are mental problems of delusion deep in the GOP and gun lobby.


Making my point. Trump can't do anything right in your eyes. So much for objectivity. Funny, but most of the mass shooters are liberals. Your feelings don't trump anyone's rights.


Tugger wrote:
extender wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Can someone tell me why nuclear weapons should be illegal?


If it floats your boat, feel free to make one.

Well since you are an anarchist at least you are consistent. Useless, but consistent. Never could understand anarchists since you can seldom actually have a good coherent conversation.

Tugg


Sarcasm is lost upon some people. Have you given any thought as to what is needed to make a nuclear weapon? Where do you get anarchist from? law and order all day long.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:01 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Trump can cure cancer and world hunger, some would still be outraged. There is an issue much deeper than guns, take care of that first.


Trump can;t cure cancer and hunger.
1. He is not a doctor
2. He is not a farmer
3. He doesn't hunt.

Everyone would be outraged of did cure cancer and world hunger, because it would be impossible.

You are correct that their is a deeper issue. There are mental problems of delusion deep in the GOP and gun lobby.


Making my point. Trump can't do anything right in your eyes. So much for objectivity. Funny, but most of the mass shooters are liberals. Your feelings don't trump anyone's rights.



Trump can't do anything right because he is incompetent.
And most mass shooters are young hate filled beings with axes to grind. Much like the current Trump cult. Your right to whack off with a gun does not Trump my right to survival from one of your associates.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump can't do anything right because he is incompetent.
And most mass shooters are young hate filled beings with axes to grind. Much like the current Trump cult. Your right to whack off with a gun does not Trump my right to survival from one of your associates.


Well, he did win the election, didn't he?

The guy that shot up Las Vegas wasn't young, nor was the guy that shot Steve Scalise.

I don't whack off with guns, but your feelings don't trump anyone's rights. Hysteria is unbecoming.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:16 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump can't do anything right because he is incompetent.
And most mass shooters are young hate filled beings with axes to grind. Much like the current Trump cult. Your right to whack off with a gun does not Trump my right to survival from one of your associates.


Well, he did win the election, didn't he?

The guy that shot up Las Vegas wasn't young, nor was the guy that shot Steve Scalise.

I don't whack off with guns, but your feelings don't trump anyone's rights. Hysteria is unbecoming.


He won with the minority of votes.
The guy that shot up Vegas was a NRA poster boy, and the guy that shot scalise was a nut. However I see you ignored El Paso, the Synagogue , Charleston and most other mass shooting where the shooter was a right wing psycho. You talk about feeling , but you can't even come to grips with anyone's rights but your own.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:16 pm

extender wrote:
Making my point. Trump can't do anything right in your eyes. So much for objectivity. Funny, but most of the mass shooters are liberals.


Quote? Source? Evidence? Claims like that get cited around here - we don’t live in a fact-free world like the sycophants of the WH.

And as for ‘rights’, SCOTUS opined in Heller that your rights have limits. Let’s quote Justice Scalia:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose......Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
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extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:19 pm

Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:25 pm

extender wrote:
Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.


So you are threatening her?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:26 pm

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
extender wrote:

If it floats your boat, feel free to make one.

Well since you are an anarchist at least you are consistent. Useless, but consistent. Never could understand anarchists since you can seldom actually have a good coherent conversation.

Tugg


Sarcasm is lost upon some people. Have you given any thought as to what is needed to make a nuclear weapon? Where do you get anarchist from? law and order all day long.

Where did I get it? You made a clear statement of "go for it". I am just going by what you said. Sarcasm is great and all but unfortunately doesn't come across in posts easily.
"Law and order"? By your statements it appears to me you don't think laws work so don't matter (since they aren't followed by all people 100% and crime still occurs). That is anarchy basically.

Law and order is one who wants to support and follow laws and believe others need to as well and works to create a situation where others do follow the law.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
extender
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.


So you are threatening her?


And some people questions Trump's mental state.
 
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casinterest
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:34 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.


So you are threatening her?


And some people questions Trump's mental state.


I question his and yours.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
StarAC17
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:41 pm

Can we all just agree that when the NRA says stuff like this the main driver of it is money. Them putting the fear in the average citizen's mind that the 2nd amendment is under attack drives up gun sales and that means more $$ in the pocket of gun manufacturers.

T18 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
. Just like driving a car or any other activity that could maim or kill people, firearm ownership should be a privilege you maintain by being of sound mind and being a fully responsible firearms owner.


While I do not really disagree with your thesis, I don't think we apply either of those bars to driving at the moment either.
For further discussion there, what constitutes being of sound mind? Should one be disqualified for Depression, ADHD, Anxiety disorders, past suicide attempts, mental handicaps?


This is my only opinion but all of those things listed should disqualify yourself from having a gun. I live in Canada and if the licencing department spoke to my mother and asked if I should own a gun she would say no as I have had anxiety issues in the past. My doctor would probably say the same.

I like Bill Maher's take on it from last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGp-omDD3V0

Tugger wrote:
"Need" isn't the issue, it is the imagined fact that any US citizen has the "right" to and therefore can carry any weapon.

Oh except for machine guns, and hand grenades and many other weapons. But for some reason many insist that if they "want" to have any firea... oh sorry, any but certain selected arms, but for some reason "burst fire" and firearms easily converted to such rapid fire can't be restricted (again except for those other weapons).

You know, because 2nd amendment (but don't think of the whole amendment! Just use the judicial activism part).
Tugg


seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The will of the people is not remotely at issue. A majority of 45 supporters support background checks and for 45 himself, disapproval is now 2nd worst at this point in his term to Carter, so a majority are against his policies anyway.


As far as I know the only time a background check isn't performed during a sale of a firearm is between two private parties. Realistically its impossible to enforce such a thing between two parties anyways.

I've been to a gun show. Majority of vendors do background checks there too.


Every time there is a mass shooting, the same people point to Chicago as to why gun laws don't work. I think you just pointed out one reason why CHICAGO gun laws don't work: private sales.


It doesn't work because Chicago is very close to Indiana and no matter how strict Chicago and the state of Illinois make the laws if Indiana is going to have looser laws then people who want guns will cross state lines. Same in California, if Nevada and Arizona have looser laws then people will simply cross state lines to gets guns.

Tugger wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
You have to be intentionally ignorant to ignore the harsh reality of countries such as China. Do you think it's wise to open doors like that for the mere potential of an infinitesimally smaller chance of being hurt, a potential that may actually be reversed and increase your chances of being hurt? Is potentially making life more dangerous also worth giving up freedom? Talk about a tin foil hat! That's absurd!

What I find sad is that tens of thousands of Americans have risked it all for the freedoms we enjoy, and now in this modern age people are willing to give that freedom up because of an irrational fear. Talk about marching orders! Time to look hard in the mirror. Or maybe look at a flag and think about who gave it all for it.

That sounds tin-foily alright.

The Constitution is in place, we have a representative democracy, we have checks and balances on each branch of the government... and you are comparing our situation to China's.... talk about infinitesimal....

Which is a smaller chance? That you will be killed by a gun or that the USA will become China, the USA losing every single bit of its structure? (It's OK, I know the fear of not getting the gun you "want" will be far more important mean that the USA is gone if a want isn't fulfilled.)

Tugg


Personally if I was an American it wouldn't be the 2nd amendment I would be worrying about
.
The fact that you have a president that isn't very fond of the 1st amendment is far more concerning.
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Aaron747
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:43 pm

extender wrote:
Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.


Jiminy crickets...Scalia’s opinion in Heller was the majority opinion.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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trpmb6
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:01 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
It doesn't work because Chicago is very close to Indiana and no matter how strict Chicago and the state of Illinois make the laws if Indiana is going to have looser laws then people who want guns will cross state lines. Same in California, if Nevada and Arizona have looser laws then people will simply cross state lines to gets guns.


The larger point in this line of discussion thus becomes: criminals don't follow laws.

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Don't worry, after Ginsburg croaks, that will get taken care of.


Jiminy crickets...Scalia’s opinion in Heller was the majority opinion.



Just watch, Ted Cruz will be nominated because, you know, Texas is becoming purple or something.
 
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Tugger
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:01 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
The larger point in this line of discussion thus becomes: criminals don't follow laws.

People keep saying this like it is supposed to mean something or change the discussion but it doesn't. It is essentially a useless, throwaway line. I mean, not following the law is what defines "being a criminal", isn't it?


The reality is that most people in the USA follow laws, including gun owners. And if a law is passed, the majority will obey the law and law enforcement and the courts will enforce the law (after any court challenges and review etc.). So, yes, criminals will flout the laws but if gun laws are changed, over time the majority of the population will obey them and legally own legal to own firearms. And criminals will be apprehended and prosecuted over time removing them and the illegal firearms for circulation.

It will take time but it can be done.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
seb146
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:18 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
It doesn't work because Chicago is very close to Indiana and no matter how strict Chicago and the state of Illinois make the laws if Indiana is going to have looser laws then people who want guns will cross state lines. Same in California, if Nevada and Arizona have looser laws then people will simply cross state lines to gets guns.


The larger point in this line of discussion thus becomes: criminals don't follow laws.


We had three mass shootings in a week. Every single shooter legally obtained their weapons.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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johnboy
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:59 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

What I find sad is that tens of thousands of Americans have risked it all for the freedoms we enjoy, and now in this modern age people are willing to give that freedom up because of an irrational fear. Talk about marching orders! Time to look hard in the mirror. Or maybe look at a flag and think about who gave it all for it.


I think that old canard about people dying for “our” rights is just that. The US military hasn’t “risked it all” for any rights in this country for a long, long time. It’s just laughably ridiculous pablum trotted out by right wing extremists repeated over and over without any higher cerebral skills involved, to justify their insanity.

Unless you’re talking about the victims of mass shootings, who definitely gave all. Wonder if we could go back and ask them about how they feel about it?


(Funny story: an ex-friend who adores Trump (of course he’s misogynistic and racist, it turns out), was in the military and loves to brag about being a “patriot” for “sacrifices” he’s had to endure for this country.

I reminded that a-hole that he spent the entire 2-3 years of his military “career” in Hawaii doing nothing but assaulting pineapple fields.

Some hero.)
 
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trpmb6
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:45 pm

johnboy wrote:

I reminded that a-hole that he spent the entire 2-3 years of his military “career” in Hawaii doing nothing but assaulting pineapple fields.

Some hero.)


"Assualting pineapple fields"

I'm sure the people of Hawaii just love hearing their beautiful islands characterized in such a way.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17417
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:35 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump can't do anything right because he is incompetent.
And most mass shooters are young hate filled beings with axes to grind. Much like the current Trump cult. Your right to whack off with a gun does not Trump my right to survival from one of your associates.


Well, he did win the election, didn't he?

The guy that shot up Las Vegas wasn't young, nor was the guy that shot Steve Scalise.

The Las Vegas guy was a responsible gun owner who was paranoid that the gubmint was gonna take his gunz. So, basically a moderate republican.

johnboy wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

What I find sad is that tens of thousands of Americans have risked it all for the freedoms we enjoy, and now in this modern age people are willing to give that freedom up because of an irrational fear. Talk about marching orders! Time to look hard in the mirror. Or maybe look at a flag and think about who gave it all for it.


I think that old canard about people dying for “our” rights is just that. The US military hasn’t “risked it all” for any rights in this country for a long, long time. It’s just laughably ridiculous pablum trotted out by right wing extremists repeated over and over without any higher cerebral skills involved, to justify their insanity.

I thought they all died so we could get sufficiently erect hardons at NFL games in between nacho runs?

trpmb6 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
It doesn't work because Chicago is very close to Indiana and no matter how strict Chicago and the state of Illinois make the laws if Indiana is going to have looser laws then people who want guns will cross state lines. Same in California, if Nevada and Arizona have looser laws then people will simply cross state lines to gets guns.


The larger point in this line of discussion thus becomes: criminals don't follow laws.

Republicans sure like to selectively apply laws. :roll: Regardless, Illinois, in spite of Chicago, has below average gun deaths thanks to its gun laws. Indiana, on the other hand, has the reverse. So there goes that theory.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N1611B
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:57 pm

The problem I have with most gun control proposals is that they aren't likely to solve the problem. Take background checks and mass shootings, for example. El Paso...Dayton...Las Vegas...Orlando...etc. They all passed background checks. Very few mass shooters wouldn't pass a background check. The background check bill that many are clamoring for now would have not prevented any of the shootings I listed. With regard to urban and drug-related gun crime, which makes up the majority of gun homicides in the United States, most of those weapons are obtained and carried illegally, so background checks wouldn't stop that crime, either.

"Assault weapons" are another target (no pun intended), but banning them would do nothing. More people are killed with blunt objects each year in the United States than are killed by rifles of any kind. Magazine limits? Good in theory, but a halfway skilled shooter can reload in seconds. All they would need would be a second weapon to keep anyone wanting to intervene at bay until their primary weapon could be reloaded. Not to mention that some of the deadliest mass shootings in the United States didn't even involve rifles of any kind. The Va Tech shooter killed 32 people with handguns. The Navy Yard shooter used a shotgun and a pistol that he took from a guard that he killed. Banning co-called "assault rifles" would only make it marginally more difficult for those who wish to do so to create carnage.

So what's the solution? Is passing some new bills that make us feel better about things but that do little, if anything, to solve the problem at hand? I don't think so. People advocating for measures like the background check bill and the assault weapons ban may be thrilled if those measures come to pass, but would inevitably be disappointed when the mass violence continues. So what then?
 
2122M
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:58 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
As far as I know the only time a background check isn't performed during a sale of a firearm is between two private parties. Realistically its impossible to enforce such a thing between two parties anyways.


Require insurance and registration. Then, much like a private car sale, it is in the best interests of the selling party to go through the proper channels so they are not held liable for anything that happens as a result of that weapon in the future. A background check could be a part of a title transfer or a requirement to take your name off the registration for that particular gun.
 
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Tugger
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Re: NRA warns Trump against universal background checks

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:25 am

N1611B wrote:
The problem I have with most gun control proposals is that they aren't likely to solve the problem.
[...]
So what's the solution? Is passing some new bills that make us feel better about things but that do little, if anything, to solve the problem at hand? I don't think so. People advocating for measures like the background check bill and the assault weapons ban may be thrilled if those measures come to pass, but would inevitably be disappointed when the mass violence continues. So what then?

The real problem is some seem to think passing laws solves problems. They don't.

OK that is settled, now what?

Beyond that, no one is saying passing laws will "solve the problem". It won't. But it will help and that is what we as a society work together to do: Improve things

.... What solves problems is people following laws and time, and adjusting laws and time, and the public reporting those not following laws and law enforcement doing its jobs and over time things falling into place. In this case a single law doesn't change anything, there will be several laws that will address the various elements and help reduce the problem.

One possible result could be more qualified or responsible people with firearms and people not being OK with someone just "fun purchasing" or heat of the moment purchases (queue the "But it's my right!" response). I always go back to hunting and those that own firearms in familes and areas where hunting is a norm. These are mostly responsible very people, and they WILL take the gun away from someone who is not responsible with them or demonstrates carelessness in handle of them. And they will report an idiot to their local law enforcement or for sure their friends groups and that will not be tolerated.

One of the reason why cities have a higher gun death rate is not because they are liberal bastions or often have Democrat leadership (sorry all who like to claim this), The reason is because "anyone can buy a gun" and they have never grown up with the proper guidance and respect for the use of a firearm.

Firearm ownership is a right and it is a big responsibility. I an not advocating disallowing firearm ownership and use, but I am all for proper management of their acquisition and use and by responsible people. That is not limiting anyone's right it is ensuing it.

2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
As far as I know the only time a background check isn't performed during a sale of a firearm is between two private parties. Realistically its impossible to enforce such a thing between two parties anyways.


Require insurance and registration. Then, much like a private car sale, it is in the best interests of the selling party to go through the proper channels so they are not held liable for anything that happens as a result of that weapon in the future. A background check could be a part of a title transfer or a requirement to take your name off the registration for that particular gun.

This is a simple and I think one of the most effective ways to start.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin

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