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WarRI1
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US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:23 am

https://www.aol.com/article/finance/201 ... /23790817/

I most certainly agree with her. The system is corrupted by greed and money, the corporations do not give a damn about anyone, and the Conservative Hero Ronald Reagan and his policies were the start of this tragic corrupted era in the US, Hurrah for me and to hell with you sums it up.
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seb146
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:44 am

With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
dmg626
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:22 pm

Since when have corporations “cared”? Back in the good ole sweat shop days? Back in the days when workers got hurt on the job due to lack of safety regs? Back in the gold old days at the steel plant and sucking in asbestos? It seems they haven’t cared for a very long time
 
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Dutchy
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:54 pm

Capitalism is amoral and it should be. That's why we need a strong market master in order to have the country move where we want thus setting the standards.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:12 pm

I have been living in both USA and Chile that has copied the USA model, besides mot of my life in Europe.

The balance in USA is more for the rich / upper middleclass and in Europe for the general middleclass and lower end middle class.

I have seen so many examples of people in the middleclass who gets cancer or heart problems and suddenly their house in order to pay bills..

In general I consider that middleclass in USA and EU lives great, Pensioneers lives probably better in parts of Europe.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:40 pm

Capitalism allows the consumer to vote with their money and is the most Darwinist of the economic systems currently implemented.
When wasn't America great?


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anrec80
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:30 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Capitalism allows the consumer to vote with their money and is the most Darwinist of the economic systems currently implemented.


Agree with this. Together with that - anything else is proven to not work, or, at best, develop severe issues over time that are being addressed by switch back to more market model.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:01 pm

seb146 wrote:
With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.


Yup! Once upon a time, not that long ago, that if you were a CEO and were forced to do layoffs you were humiliated and shamed as a poor leader. Now, if you announce layoffs your stock soars, you get $10s of millions of $$$ in bonuses and stock awards, and you’re lauded as a genius.

Vulture Capital companies are even worse these days. They gut R&D, cut staffing to the bone, raid the assets, and bury the company in long term debt; while taking massive “management fees” for the first 3 years to recoup 125% of their investment, then offload it before everyone realizes it’s a zombie corporation. But who cares about that? Just file for bankruptcy reorganization and force the remaining employees into massive pay cuts, and toss the pension plan and retiree’s healthcare costs onto the taxpayers. Make $10s of millions more for the top 12 people at the helm, and frack everyone else.

Late stage capitalism at its finest. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zZPqar34w
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:52 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.


Yup! Once upon a time, not that long ago, that if you were a CEO and were forced to do layoffs you were humiliated and shamed as a poor leader. Now, if you announce layoffs your stock soars, you get $10s of millions of $$$ in bonuses and stock awards, and you’re lauded as a genius.

Vulture Capital companies are even worse these days. They gut R&D, cut staffing to the bone, raid the assets, and bury the company in long term debt; while taking massive “management fees” for the first 3 years to recoup 125% of their investment, then offload it before everyone realizes it’s a zombie corporation. But who cares about that? Just file for bankruptcy reorganization and force the remaining employees into massive pay cuts, and toss the pension plan and retiree’s healthcare costs onto the taxpayers. Make $10s of millions more for the top 12 people at the helm, and frack everyone else.

Late stage capitalism at its finest. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zZPqar34w


When was that? Why should a CEO be humiliated over external factors that lead to layoffs? And what about executives like Jim Whitehurst and Gerald Grinstein who took no salary while Delta was in bankruptcy? I'll agree that some CEOs like Richard Anderson were as awful as could be and deserve to be hated. But certainly not all of them should be hit with your broad brush.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:17 am

Conveniently, with evangelicals the US also has an amoral form of religion to go with their amoral capitalism. It's a match made in heaven.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:17 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why should a CEO be humiliated over external factors that lead to layoffs? And what about executives like Jim Whitehurst and Gerald Grinstein who took no salary while Delta was in bankruptcy? I'll agree that some CEOs like Richard Anderson were as awful as could be and deserve to be hated. But certainly not all of them should be hit with your broad brush.


It goes both ways. Why, for example, were no CEOs arrested after the financial crisis? That one gets me even more than a decade later.
 
seb146
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.


Yup! Once upon a time, not that long ago, that if you were a CEO and were forced to do layoffs you were humiliated and shamed as a poor leader. Now, if you announce layoffs your stock soars, you get $10s of millions of $$$ in bonuses and stock awards, and you’re lauded as a genius.

Vulture Capital companies are even worse these days. They gut R&D, cut staffing to the bone, raid the assets, and bury the company in long term debt; while taking massive “management fees” for the first 3 years to recoup 125% of their investment, then offload it before everyone realizes it’s a zombie corporation. But who cares about that? Just file for bankruptcy reorganization and force the remaining employees into massive pay cuts, and toss the pension plan and retiree’s healthcare costs onto the taxpayers. Make $10s of millions more for the top 12 people at the helm, and frack everyone else.

Late stage capitalism at its finest. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zZPqar34w


When was that? Why should a CEO be humiliated over external factors that lead to layoffs? And what about executives like Jim Whitehurst and Gerald Grinstein who took no salary while Delta was in bankruptcy? I'll agree that some CEOs like Richard Anderson were as awful as could be and deserve to be hated. But certainly not all of them should be hit with your broad brush.


And the ones who simply bury their heads in the sand? There are too many of those. Or the ones who lay off or fire half the work force because "cost cutting measures" then wonder why no one buys their product? Lowes is firing many and outsourcing. That is not employees or foot traffic. And the share holders and board of directors is letting it happen. Conservatives will be wondering why employment is going up if this spreads to other companies, which I fear it will.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
StarAC17
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why should a CEO be humiliated over external factors that lead to layoffs? And what about executives like Jim Whitehurst and Gerald Grinstein who took no salary while Delta was in bankruptcy? I'll agree that some CEOs like Richard Anderson were as awful as could be and deserve to be hated. But certainly not all of them should be hit with your broad brush.


It goes both ways. Why, for example, were no CEOs arrested after the financial crisis? That one gets me even more than a decade later.


No CEO was arrested because the acts that led to the financial crisis were perfectly legal. Terrible lending practices and making a bad investing bet (mortgage backed securities) and insuring it (mortgage default swaps, AIG's near failure) are bad decisions and not crimes. It was stupidity and arrogance but not fraud. Falsifying your books or purposely misleading investors are crimes but that was done at a micro-level and not done by the CEO's, granted many should have been shamed and fired to not be seen on Wall st. again.

The repeal of Glass–Steagall and other regulations in the 80's and 90's led to that crisis by letting investment banks invest with depositor money was the problem also but that was again made legal. For those who complain about regulations they are there not just for kicks, they are there because actions of the past caused a problem either intentionally or by an unforeseen consequence and they should stay in place.
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winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:43 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why should a CEO be humiliated over external factors that lead to layoffs? And what about executives like Jim Whitehurst and Gerald Grinstein who took no salary while Delta was in bankruptcy? I'll agree that some CEOs like Richard Anderson were as awful as could be and deserve to be hated. But certainly not all of them should be hit with your broad brush.


It goes both ways. Why, for example, were no CEOs arrested after the financial crisis? That one gets me even more than a decade later.


No CEO was arrested because the acts that led to the financial crisis were perfectly legal. Terrible lending practices and making a bad investing bet (mortgage backed securities) and insuring it (mortgage default swaps, AIG's near failure) are bad decisions and not crimes. It was stupidity and arrogance but not fraud. Falsifying your books or purposely misleading investors are crimes but that was done at a micro-level and not done by the CEO's, granted many should have been shamed and fired to not be seen on Wall st. again.


Sorry, but what complete nonsense.

Not only is there abundant evidence of criminal fraud in the Financial Crisis Inquiry Report tied to specific individuals, but it was in fact so glaring that a sitting Federal Judge from the Southern District of New York with jurisdiction over Wall Street published a thoughtful 4000-word missive about his displeasure over the lack of prosecutions of Wall Street executives. It's worth pointing out how incredibly rare it is for a sitting judge with applicable jurisdiction to essentially say "I think crimes have been committed here, and I don't understand why prosecutions aren't coming down so that I can rule on them".

Mortgage underwriting, accounting fraud, insider trading, foreclosure fraud. To say that the acts leading to the financial crisis were perfectly legal is woefully shortsighted, and wrong.
 
stratosphere
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:45 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.


Yup! Once upon a time, not that long ago, that if you were a CEO and were forced to do layoffs you were humiliated and shamed as a poor leader. Now, if you announce layoffs your stock soars, you get $10s of millions of $$$ in bonuses and stock awards, and you’re lauded as a genius.

Vulture Capital companies are even worse these days. They gut R&D, cut staffing to the bone, raid the assets, and bury the company in long term debt; while taking massive “management fees” for the first 3 years to recoup 125% of their investment, then offload it before everyone realizes it’s a zombie corporation. But who cares about that? Just file for bankruptcy reorganization and force the remaining employees into massive pay cuts, and toss the pension plan and retiree’s healthcare costs onto the taxpayers. Make $10s of millions more for the top 12 people at the helm, and frack everyone else.

Late stage capitalism at its finest. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zZPqar34w


Yeah and once upon a time when having a child out of wedlock you felt shame and humiliation. Oh how times have changed and not for better in life and in work.
 
seb146
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:18 pm

stratosphere wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With Reaganomics, it is a race to the bottom. Which ever corporation can pay their workers the least and produce the most is also the most American and patriotic. According to St. Reagan. No corporation cares if you are sick or have kids. Corporations only care if you can work for the least per hour for no benefits. All Lives Matter like they have in Europe is the worst thing ever. No "Christian" nation should ever care about things like that. "Christian" nations should only care about the bottom line.


Yup! Once upon a time, not that long ago, that if you were a CEO and were forced to do layoffs you were humiliated and shamed as a poor leader. Now, if you announce layoffs your stock soars, you get $10s of millions of $$$ in bonuses and stock awards, and you’re lauded as a genius.

Vulture Capital companies are even worse these days. They gut R&D, cut staffing to the bone, raid the assets, and bury the company in long term debt; while taking massive “management fees” for the first 3 years to recoup 125% of their investment, then offload it before everyone realizes it’s a zombie corporation. But who cares about that? Just file for bankruptcy reorganization and force the remaining employees into massive pay cuts, and toss the pension plan and retiree’s healthcare costs onto the taxpayers. Make $10s of millions more for the top 12 people at the helm, and frack everyone else.

Late stage capitalism at its finest. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zZPqar34w


Yeah and once upon a time when having a child out of wedlock you felt shame and humiliation. Oh how times have changed and not for better in life and in work.


Corporations used to pay their workers well. They wanted to retain trained and skilled labor. Now, they don't care. They just throw out scraps because they know we need money for food, rent, and medical expenses.

I am not sure what any of that has to do with children being born out of wedlock. That has been happening for millennia.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm

https://www.providencejournal.com/jobs


Yes indeed, it is booming for the wealthy and corporations, not the worker.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:07 pm

Disregard link, above, not working properly.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:54 pm

winginit wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
winginit wrote:

It goes both ways. Why, for example, were no CEOs arrested after the financial crisis? That one gets me even more than a decade later.


No CEO was arrested because the acts that led to the financial crisis were perfectly legal. Terrible lending practices and making a bad investing bet (mortgage backed securities) and insuring it (mortgage default swaps, AIG's near failure) are bad decisions and not crimes. It was stupidity and arrogance but not fraud. Falsifying your books or purposely misleading investors are crimes but that was done at a micro-level and not done by the CEO's, granted many should have been shamed and fired to not be seen on Wall st. again.


Sorry, but what complete nonsense.

Not only is there abundant evidence of criminal fraud in the Financial Crisis Inquiry Report tied to specific individuals, but it was in fact so glaring that a sitting Federal Judge from the Southern District of New York with jurisdiction over Wall Street published a thoughtful 4000-word missive about his displeasure over the lack of prosecutions of Wall Street executives. It's worth pointing out how incredibly rare it is for a sitting judge with applicable jurisdiction to essentially say "I think crimes have been committed here, and I don't understand why prosecutions aren't coming down so that I can rule on them".

Mortgage underwriting, accounting fraud, insider trading, foreclosure fraud. To say that the acts leading to the financial crisis were perfectly legal is woefully shortsighted, and wrong.


So none of the blame goes on the people who knew they couldn't afford the first mortgage payment?
 
winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

No CEO was arrested because the acts that led to the financial crisis were perfectly legal. Terrible lending practices and making a bad investing bet (mortgage backed securities) and insuring it (mortgage default swaps, AIG's near failure) are bad decisions and not crimes. It was stupidity and arrogance but not fraud. Falsifying your books or purposely misleading investors are crimes but that was done at a micro-level and not done by the CEO's, granted many should have been shamed and fired to not be seen on Wall st. again.


Sorry, but what complete nonsense.

Not only is there abundant evidence of criminal fraud in the Financial Crisis Inquiry Report tied to specific individuals, but it was in fact so glaring that a sitting Federal Judge from the Southern District of New York with jurisdiction over Wall Street published a thoughtful 4000-word missive about his displeasure over the lack of prosecutions of Wall Street executives. It's worth pointing out how incredibly rare it is for a sitting judge with applicable jurisdiction to essentially say "I think crimes have been committed here, and I don't understand why prosecutions aren't coming down so that I can rule on them".

Mortgage underwriting, accounting fraud, insider trading, foreclosure fraud. To say that the acts leading to the financial crisis were perfectly legal is woefully shortsighted, and wrong.


So none of the blame goes on the people who knew they couldn't afford the first mortgage payment?


Did I say that? I think you'll find I didn't, but I'd argue the individuals you're referencing were blamed and punished enough in being, I don't know, financially wiped out? Whereas executives and CEOs took their golden parachutes and were on their merry way.
 
winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:02 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Yeah and once upon a time when having a child out of wedlock you felt shame and humiliation. .


... what on earth are you even talking about?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:36 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:

Sorry, but what complete nonsense.

Not only is there abundant evidence of criminal fraud in the Financial Crisis Inquiry Report tied to specific individuals, but it was in fact so glaring that a sitting Federal Judge from the Southern District of New York with jurisdiction over Wall Street published a thoughtful 4000-word missive about his displeasure over the lack of prosecutions of Wall Street executives. It's worth pointing out how incredibly rare it is for a sitting judge with applicable jurisdiction to essentially say "I think crimes have been committed here, and I don't understand why prosecutions aren't coming down so that I can rule on them".

Mortgage underwriting, accounting fraud, insider trading, foreclosure fraud. To say that the acts leading to the financial crisis were perfectly legal is woefully shortsighted, and wrong.


So none of the blame goes on the people who knew they couldn't afford the first mortgage payment?


Did I say that? I think you'll find I didn't, but I'd argue the individuals you're referencing were blamed and punished enough in being, I don't know, financially wiped out? Whereas executives and CEOs took their golden parachutes and were on their merry way.


I would say very few of those home buyers were wiped out. Most put nothing or very little down. Those who did put anything meaningful toward a down payment were cashing it out via a HELOC as soon as the first mortgage closed. Most basically lived rent free for months and years since the foreclosures were so backed up, especially in states with judicial foreclosure as the process takes much longer.
 
winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:57 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

So none of the blame goes on the people who knew they couldn't afford the first mortgage payment?


Did I say that? I think you'll find I didn't, but I'd argue the individuals you're referencing were blamed and punished enough in being, I don't know, financially wiped out? Whereas executives and CEOs took their golden parachutes and were on their merry way.


I would say very few of those home buyers were wiped out. Most put nothing or very little down. Those who did put anything meaningful toward a down payment were cashing it out via a HELOC as soon as the first mortgage closed. Most basically lived rent free for months and years since the foreclosures were so backed up, especially in states with judicial foreclosure as the process takes much longer.


What you 'would say' is irrelevant. The facts say that ten million Americans lost their homes, and as of last year baby boomer wealth is still well below pre-crisis levels. The fact that you're trying to blame average American consumers here as opposed to those who facilitated the crisis through outright fraud is both staggering and sad. Do better.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:46 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:

Did I say that? I think you'll find I didn't, but I'd argue the individuals you're referencing were blamed and punished enough in being, I don't know, financially wiped out? Whereas executives and CEOs took their golden parachutes and were on their merry way.


I would say very few of those home buyers were wiped out. Most put nothing or very little down. Those who did put anything meaningful toward a down payment were cashing it out via a HELOC as soon as the first mortgage closed. Most basically lived rent free for months and years since the foreclosures were so backed up, especially in states with judicial foreclosure as the process takes much longer.


What you 'would say' is irrelevant. The facts say that ten million Americans lost their homes, and as of last year baby boomer wealth is still well below pre-crisis levels. The fact that you're trying to blame average American consumers here as opposed to those who facilitated the crisis through outright fraud is both staggering and sad. Do better.



This is just an example of what is happening to our workers all theses years later. Amoral and virulent to say the least.


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SteelChair
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:55 pm

If American capitalism is so evil, why do people keep coming to America?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:58 pm

SteelChair wrote:
If American capitalism is so evil, why do people keep coming to America?



Look who is coming, people from desperate, desperate situations.
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winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:59 pm

SteelChair wrote:
If American capitalism is so evil, why do people keep coming to America?


Oh right, because it's the Norwegians, Swedes, Canadians, Austrians, Swiss, and Australians who are coming to America in droves?

Hardly. Honestly what a ridiculously foolish statement.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:02 pm

winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
If American capitalism is so evil, why do people keep coming to America?


Oh right, because it's the Norwegians, Swedes, Canadians, Austrians, Swiss, and Australians who are coming to America in droves?

Hardly. Honestly what a ridiculously foolish statement.



I could not agree with you more, unlike the other reply. We are certainly not the premier destination for many other countries who are not desperate by any means these days.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
SteelChair
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:17 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
If American capitalism is so evil, why do people keep coming to America?


Oh right, because it's the Norwegians, Swedes, Canadians, Austrians, Swiss, and Australians who are coming to America in droves?

Hardly. Honestly what a ridiculously foolish statement.



I could not agree with you more, unlike the other reply. We are certainly not the premier destination for many other countries who are not desperate by any means these days.


So basically, you agree with President Trump, who said only people from $h!th○l € countries come to America?

Why aren't the desperate people going to those other, nicer, countries? Why is the USA besieged by illegals?

I personally know quite a few people who come here from "nicer" countries. Most of them really enjoy paying lower taxes.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:31 pm

I do know that I agree, there is desperation in what is happening on our Southern Border. A human tide, all desperate for a better life. I am sure you realize it is easier to walk and swim up from South America than across an ocean. Think about it. The people from so called nicer countries also have higher living conditions, better incomes and savings, better education and these are the people who would want to pay lower taxes to really enjoy the US which is increasingly unfair as far as labor and opportunity goes for the desperate such as the South Americans and as the title says, even for native born desperate people.. I guess your friends would probably hire an illegal to cut lawns and clean their houses, just a strump does. A typo, but I like it.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:15 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I do know that I agree, there is desperation in what is happening on our Southern Border. A human tide, all desperate for a better life. I am sure you realize it is easier to walk and swim up from South America than across an ocean. Think about it. The people from so called nicer countries also have higher living conditions, better incomes and savings, better education and these are the people who would want to pay lower taxes to really enjoy the US which is increasingly unfair as far as labor and opportunity goes for the desperate such as the South Americans and as the title says, even for native born desperate people.. I guess your friends would probably hire an illegal to cut lawns and clean their houses, just a strump does. A typo, but I like it.


Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?
 
winginit
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:35 pm

SteelChair wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Oh right, because it's the Norwegians, Swedes, Canadians, Austrians, Swiss, and Australians who are coming to America in droves?

Hardly. Honestly what a ridiculously foolish statement.



I could not agree with you more, unlike the other reply. We are certainly not the premier destination for many other countries who are not desperate by any means these days.


So basically, you agree with President Trump, who said only people from $h!th○l € countries come to America?

Why aren't the desperate people going to those other, nicer, countries? Why is the USA besieged by illegals?

I personally know quite a few people who come here from "nicer" countries. Most of them really enjoy paying lower taxes.


You guys... I'm starting to think SteelChair here doesn't even have a fundamental understanding of geography... maybe he should stick to the sidelines of this discussion.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:38 pm

winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
winginit wrote:

Did I say that? I think you'll find I didn't, but I'd argue the individuals you're referencing were blamed and punished enough in being, I don't know, financially wiped out? Whereas executives and CEOs took their golden parachutes and were on their merry way.


I would say very few of those home buyers were wiped out. Most put nothing or very little down. Those who did put anything meaningful toward a down payment were cashing it out via a HELOC as soon as the first mortgage closed. Most basically lived rent free for months and years since the foreclosures were so backed up, especially in states with judicial foreclosure as the process takes much longer.


What you 'would say' is irrelevant. The facts say that ten million Americans lost their homes, and as of last year baby boomer wealth is still well below pre-crisis levels. The fact that you're trying to blame average American consumers here as opposed to those who facilitated the crisis through outright fraud is both staggering and sad. Do better.


They lost homes that they never owned; little or no down payment, underwater quickly and lost out. Texas didn’t have a problem—20% down payment by law.

I know several Canadians who happily became Americans
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
winginit wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I would say very few of those home buyers were wiped out. Most put nothing or very little down. Those who did put anything meaningful toward a down payment were cashing it out via a HELOC as soon as the first mortgage closed. Most basically lived rent free for months and years since the foreclosures were so backed up, especially in states with judicial foreclosure as the process takes much longer.


What you 'would say' is irrelevant. The facts say that ten million Americans lost their homes, and as of last year baby boomer wealth is still well below pre-crisis levels. The fact that you're trying to blame average American consumers here as opposed to those who facilitated the crisis through outright fraud is both staggering and sad. Do better.


They lost homes that they never owned; little or no down payment, underwater quickly and lost out. Texas didn’t have a problem—20% down payment by law.

I know several Canadians who happily became Americans


Oh you know ' several ' Canadians who happily became Americans? What a data point! No really you should write a white paper with all of that hard data of yours. Pathetic.

Image
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I do know that I agree, there is desperation in what is happening on our Southern Border. A human tide, all desperate for a better life. I am sure you realize it is easier to walk and swim up from South America than across an ocean. Think about it. The people from so called nicer countries also have higher living conditions, better incomes and savings, better education and these are the people who would want to pay lower taxes to really enjoy the US which is increasingly unfair as far as labor and opportunity goes for the desperate such as the South Americans and as the title says, even for native born desperate people.. I guess your friends would probably hire an illegal to cut lawns and clean their houses, just a strump does. A typo, but I like it.


Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?


What this translates into is this...

Only educated well heeled immigrants allowed, so they can take as many high paying jobs from Americans (don't you like your Australian sounding Weather lady on TV? Vs the busty blonde from Texas?) - yeah, that's ticket..make higher paying jobs far more competitive for Americans while reducing the number of shit jobs such as plunking chickens and back-breaking jobs picking lettece, strawberries, avocados & fruits so those prices go thru the roof - because Americans WILL NOT do those jobs for cheap!

In fact Americans just are not going to do those jobs at $50 an hour.

If fact, the illegals contribute $13 Billion annually to the Social Security annually, of which they will be unable collect upon retirement because their contributions come in under false SSNs.
In the trillions over the decades.

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/01/28/ ... eceive-no/
According to New American Economy, undocumented immigrants contributed $13 billion into the Social Security funds in 2016 and $3 billion to Medicare. Three years prior, the Chief Actuary of the Social Security Administration, Stephen Goss, wrote a report that estimated undocumented immigrants contributed $12 billion into Social Security.

So, yeah...let's erase all they contribute to the economy (versus what the take away, medical, school, etc) because the Social Security net can afford it.


Now that's smart politics!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:36 pm

BN747 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I do know that I agree, there is desperation in what is happening on our Southern Border. A human tide, all desperate for a better life. I am sure you realize it is easier to walk and swim up from South America than across an ocean. Think about it. The people from so called nicer countries also have higher living conditions, better incomes and savings, better education and these are the people who would want to pay lower taxes to really enjoy the US which is increasingly unfair as far as labor and opportunity goes for the desperate such as the South Americans and as the title says, even for native born desperate people.. I guess your friends would probably hire an illegal to cut lawns and clean their houses, just a strump does. A typo, but I like it.


Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?


What this translates into is this...

Only educated well heeled immigrants allowed, so they can take as many high paying jobs from Americans (don't you like your Australian sounding Weather lady on TV? Vs the busty blonde from Texas?) - yeah, that's ticket..make higher paying jobs far more competitive for Americans while reducing the number of shit jobs such as plunking chickens and back-breaking jobs picking lettece, strawberries, avocados & fruits so those prices go thru the roof - because Americans WILL NOT do those jobs for cheap!

In fact Americans just are not going to do those jobs at $50 an hour.

If fact, the illegals contribute $13 Billion annually to the Social Security annually, of which they will be unable collect upon retirement because their contributions come in under false SSNs.
In the trillions over the decades.

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/01/28/ ... eceive-no/
According to New American Economy, undocumented immigrants contributed $13 billion into the Social Security funds in 2016 and $3 billion to Medicare. Three years prior, the Chief Actuary of the Social Security Administration, Stephen Goss, wrote a report that estimated undocumented immigrants contributed $12 billion into Social Security.

So, yeah...let's erase all they contribute to the economy (versus what the take away, medical, school, etc) because the Social Security net can afford it.


Now that's smart politics!

BN747



...and Republican Logic.
Explained-
Make our well paying jobs more competitive by allowing as many white westerners, the immigrants of choice - Keep the illegal poor ones 'who will do the work I won't do' here -out!

Rep Logic: Even if my cousin and I lose our high paying job...better than those undocumented Mexicans plucking chickens for $5 and hour (or less and stealing our jobs although I don't work there..) keeping my KFC & McChicken sandwich cheap!

"You do know that's why your McChicken sandwich and KFC is so cheap, right? Ummm...you do know your McChicken and KFC will go to about $50 to 60 bucks for a single serving, correct?"

Rep: Did I say I was against wage increases???

"Yes you did"

Rep Logic:"Okay, raise chicken plucking wages to $30 per hour and my in-laws will do that kinda work!
...and that's okay, I'm into tofu now anyway. No more burritos/tacos for me.

"Ummm, your deporting all those chicken pluckers and fruit farm pickers just knocked of $13 Billion annually, right?

Rep Logic: Yeah but we'll make it up somehow, we'll just see what happens...'

"uhh...okay, sounds good.

Rep Logic: You see the new European Tom Cruise look-a-like action flick? There's hot Swiss Scarlett Johanson look-a-like co-starring in it too?


'Murica...great again already! MGAA


They'll cut off thier hand to be rid of a hangnail. Capitalism without Limits, explained!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:56 pm

winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:


I could not agree with you more, unlike the other reply. We are certainly not the premier destination for many other countries who are not desperate by any means these days.


So basically, you agree with President Trump, who said only people from $h!th○l € countries come to America?

Why aren't the desperate people going to those other, nicer, countries? Why is the USA besieged by illegals?

I personally know quite a few people who come here from "nicer" countries. Most of them really enjoy paying lower taxes.


You guys... I'm starting to think SteelChair here doesn't even have a fundamental understanding of geography... maybe he should stick to the sidelines of this discussion.


Thats the spirit, eliminate discussion! Especially those who disagree with you. More power to lawbreakers! Viva la revolucion!
 
Spar
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool.

That sounds great, the question is how do we get Congress (both sides) to actually pass laws that would provide stiff punishments for companies (and individuals) that hire illegals?

Our form of government isn't a democracy or even a Republic, it is a lobbyorocracy. The lawmakers agenda is set by lobbyists and there are plenty of lobbyists twisting arms for exemptions for this and that industry.

This issue is larger than Trump or Repub vs Dems. It raises fundamental issues about our system of government.
Trump is exploiting the issue but the issue is a real issue.
 
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WarRI1
Topic Author
Posts: 12992
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I do know that I agree, there is desperation in what is happening on our Southern Border. A human tide, all desperate for a better life. I am sure you realize it is easier to walk and swim up from South America than across an ocean. Think about it. The people from so called nicer countries also have higher living conditions, better incomes and savings, better education and these are the people who would want to pay lower taxes to really enjoy the US which is increasingly unfair as far as labor and opportunity goes for the desperate such as the South Americans and as the title says, even for native born desperate people.. I guess your friends would probably hire an illegal to cut lawns and clean their houses, just a strump does. A typo, but I like it.


Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?



Unless I wrote words in my sleep, please find where I ever advocated flooding illegals into this country to lower wage levels. In fact you will find quite the opposite of your accusation. I have railed for years about the corporations and business people doing this to our workers. The congress has done nothing, the US Chamber of Commerce is also a villian. I was in a Union, all my working life for the ten thousandth time, so believe me I have never ever done what you charge. Now back to the title of the thread, I stand by my thread title, we have an amoral virulent form of Capitalism.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9860
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:11 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?


Move 11 million "illegals" out of the country and we'll end up with a recession that will be far worse than the Cheney - Bush Great Recession. Basically you loose some pretty hard workers doing everything from harvesting our food to maintaining our lawns and gardens. The Trump FUBAR on tariffs is already throwing farmers into bankruptcy and Deadbeat Donald doesn't have a clue, This is the main factor why our upcoming Recession will be worse than the one Cheney - Busy brought us.

Like it or not, illegals do pay taxes - sales taxes, fuel taxes, road tolls, etc. Cities and states need their revenue, but Deadbeat Donald doesn't understand that,
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9476
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:30 am

Ken777 wrote:
Donald doesn't understand that,


Looking at his policies and what he is saying, I would say he doesn't care, if he understands it or not doesn't really matter.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1241
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:30 am

Ken777 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Keep out the illegals, don't allow any more worker visas, and have stiff punishments for companies that hire illegals. That gets rid of a lot of the labor supply. Wages will then increase to stimulate demand from the legal labor pool. That's how a market economy works.

You are constantly moaning about low wages yet you want to flood the country with illegal immigrants. What kind of logic is that?


Move 11 million "illegals" out of the country and we'll end up with a recession that will be far worse than the Cheney - Bush Great Recession. Basically you loose some pretty hard workers doing everything from harvesting our food to maintaining our lawns and gardens. The Trump FUBAR on tariffs is already throwing farmers into bankruptcy and Deadbeat Donald doesn't have a clue, This is the main factor why our upcoming Recession will be worse than the one Cheney - Busy brought us.

Like it or not, illegals do pay taxes - sales taxes, fuel taxes, road tolls, etc. Cities and states need their revenue, but Deadbeat Donald doesn't understand that,


Good to know you support breaking the law.
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:35 pm

SteelChair wrote:
winginit wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

So basically, you agree with President Trump, who said only people from $h!th○l € countries come to America?

Why aren't the desperate people going to those other, nicer, countries? Why is the USA besieged by illegals?

I personally know quite a few people who come here from "nicer" countries. Most of them really enjoy paying lower taxes.


You guys... I'm starting to think SteelChair here doesn't even have a fundamental understanding of geography... maybe he should stick to the sidelines of this discussion.


Thats the spirit, eliminate discussion! Especially those who disagree with you. More power to lawbreakers! Viva la revolucion!


You literally asked why desperate people aren't going to countries on the other side of an OCEAN versus crossing a land border - a genuinely staggering question that has me questioning your basic understanding of geography.

"Hey! Why are all these desperate people from Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, and El Salvador coming to America instead of going to Australia or Switzerland?! Someone should look into that!"
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:17 am

Worst form of economy except all the others.

GF
 
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WarRI1
Topic Author
Posts: 12992
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Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Worst form of economy except all the others.

GF




Capitalism, can come in a more fair system than we have in the US. It is rigged for the wealthy here, ask trump.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:16 am

He’s not in my phone. Please explain “fair” which life is, most assuredly, NOT?

GF
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9476
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
He’s not in my phone. Please explain “fair” which life is, most assuredly, NOT?

GF


Social mobility in America is less than in many other western countries. If nothing else, a lot of talent is lost for the economy because of that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9320
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:28 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
He’s not in my phone. Please explain “fair” which life is, most assuredly, NOT?

GF


Hard to explain something subjective like ‘fair’ but even your side could probably agree a lower Gini coefficient would be better all around for Americans. Higher prosperity and disposable income would make the domestic market far more robust. If those exploiting our system were not so greedy, they might even admit that’s true, but they don’t care. And it’s precisely because they don’t care that our Gini figure is similar to that of central African nations, where those gaming the system definitely don’t care.

Oh look! We’re sandwiched between Peru and Cameroon.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 2rank.html
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:00 pm

And look Moldova is sandwiched between Norway and Germany. Everything isn’t about equality. If anything, returns to human capital have become far greater in the “Information Age”. I’d love to hear how “the rich” are exploiting the average American or the System? Zuckerberg, Bezos, Jobs, Gates became rich the old fashioned way, they earned it by producing something customers wanted.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9320
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism.

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And look Moldova is sandwiched between Norway and Germany. Everything isn’t about equality. If anything, returns to human capital have become far greater in the “Information Age”. I’d love to hear how “the rich” are exploiting the average American or the System? Zuckerberg, Bezos, Jobs, Gates became rich the old fashioned way, they earned it by producing something customers wanted.


Not the argument and you know it. Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg started companies that pay and reward their employees very well. Only Bezos would qualify as greedy since his company has had worker pay issues and their philanthropic footprint is tiny compared to the others mentioned.

The more general argument was about behavior and priorities - and that’s why the US has a poor Gini number. Just looking at the 1978 to 2018 period, adjusting for inflation, median real wages increased $2/hr while corporate executive pay increased 1000%. This coincides directly with the 1980s sea change in management focus from long term growth and stability to chasing quarterly KPIs. None of that is good for the middle class. There were of course wealthy people before the 1970s, but most economists would say they behaved much more responsibly as a general rule.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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