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Aaron747
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German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:23 am

This is one of the wurst ideas I have come across in awhile as things intended to protect the environment go. Punishing consumers is not a realistic approach.

If they want to help the environment, promote synthetic meat. Several companies are already bringing product to market and production is scaling up. Doing this would allow mass planting of trees on land no longer needed for grazing and there would be fewer cow farts.

German politicians from the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens on Wednesday proposed raising the value added tax (VAT) on meat to the standard rate of 19%. Currently, meat is taxed at a reduced rate of 7% like most foodstuffs.

"I am in favor of abolishing the VAT reduction for meat and earmarking it for more animal welfare," said Friedrich Ostendorf, agricultural policy spokesperson for the Greens.


https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-meat-tax- ... a-49924795
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anrec80
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:58 am

WTF? Isn’t it going too far? They are already telling people what they should eat.
 
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seahawk
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:22 am

They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
German politicians from the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens on Wednesday proposed raising the value added tax (VAT) on meat to the standard rate of 19%. Currently, meat is taxed at a reduced rate of 7% like most foodstuffs.

"I am in favor of abolishing the VAT reduction for meat and earmarking it for more animal welfare," said Friedrich Ostendorf, agricultural policy spokesperson for the Greens.


https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-meat-tax- ... a-49924795


seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Yup, the little "most foodstuffs" at the end does not include, for example, baby food, or soy milk drink and lots of other food stuffs that lots of people do like.

Half of Germany's population describes itself as flexi-, vegetarian or vegan, why should they subsidize eating meat, when they have to pay the full VAT on lots of stuff they eat?

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Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:45 am

seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.

Lastly it is always easy to ridicule on details. But that is regularly not constructive ( and not intended to be either).
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:12 am

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


Because eating in a restaurant is not buying food, but buying a service. And those are 19%... unless it is a night in a Hotel, where it somehow is 7%.....

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.


Yup. The headline is wrong, no such thing as a meat tax... just the question: do we support and encourage meat production by keeping a low VAT on meat? Especially when meat is often cheaper than vegetables and fruit....

Cowmilk is 7%, Soybean Milk is 19%... WTH?
Apples: 7%, Apple Juice: 19% WTH?
Frog legs, quail's eggs, king prawns, turtle meat, fresh truffles are 7% ... as if those are staple foods...
Potatoes are 7%, unless they are sweet potatoes, then they are 19% ....
Baby food or medication: 19% as if people don´t need those....
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.

I would think 90+% could go to 19% with hardly anyone noticing...

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Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.


hinting, hinting, hinting.

we've major issues with fat kids. less so with fat dogs.
( same thing with excessively sweetened drinks.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


Because eating in a restaurant is not buying food, but buying a service. And those are 19%... unless it is a night in a Hotel, where it somehow is 7%.....

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.


Yup. The headline is wrong, no such thing as a meat tax... just the question: do we support and encourage meat production by keeping a low VAT on meat? Especially when meat is often cheaper than vegetables and fruit....

Cowmilk is 7%, Soybean Milk is 19%... WTH?
Apples: 7%, Apple Juice: 19% WTH?
Frog legs, quail's eggs, king prawns, turtle meat, fresh truffles are 7% ... as if those are staple foods...
Potatoes are 7%, unless they are sweet potatoes, then they are 19% ....
Baby food or medication: 19% as if people don´t need those....
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.

I would think 90+% could go to 19% with hardly anyone noticing...

best regards
Thomas


Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

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Thomas
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

best regards
Thomas


I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:36 am

Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


Soilent Green. OK. fixes some other issues too ( like the superannuated leaning on the youngsters income
and determining the future in a negative way like Brexit in the UK.)

The Greens are a religious setup.

The C-Church and the Fundi Christians can't accept sex ed as viable solution to underage pregnancies either.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:40 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

best regards
Thomas


I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


So, instead of making meat a little more expensive you want to ban real meat?

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Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth
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Zeppi
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:14 am

IMHO the whole discussion is another total fail by the german polititians. A higher tax won't change anything, people would still buy the cheapest mass produced meat available at the discounters.
What would work is an EU wide ban on mass keeping of animals, that would reduce supply and hence increase the prices, making it more lucrative for the farmers too. Same goes for milk, the per liter price the farmers get is ridiculous, some is even subsidised to make milk farming economically viable at all.

tommy1808 wrote:
So, instead of making meat a little more expensive you want to ban real meat

If it were up to me I'd not ban it, but make it a LOT more expensive, see above. And not through a tax but in such a way the producers directly benefit from it and can keep the animals under the best conditions possible. And it is possible! The farm close to my house produces everything you can think of and directly sells it on site too, without a middleman like a supermarket. The cows and bulls have meadows to roam freely or go inside a large roomy stable if they wish, they even have massage devices which they love! :D
Same goes for geese, chicken, pigs and ducks. Their per kg price of most meat and poultry products is roughly one third higher than what you pay at a supermarket, but that's certainly well worth paying as the quality is a whole world different too.

There are some approaches to in vitro meat (which I assume is what Aaron747 meant), real meat grown from stem cells in the lab. Certainly also worth looking into more for usage where products are mass produced and organically farmed meat would be way too expensive.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:35 am

WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth


As Zeppi said, I am referring to laboratory meat companies - they will change the marketplace big-time, and potentially sooner than you think. Vat grown is something of a pejorative as this new field is now accepted to be a branch of ‘cellular agriculture’.
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth


As Zeppi said, I am referring to laboratory meat companies - they will change the marketplace big-time, and potentially sooner than you think. Vat grown is something of a pejorative as this new field is now accepted to be a branch of ‘cellular agriculture’.


complex and in an industrial context probably not significantly more environmentally friendly than
raising lifestock. ( for a start lifestock replicates on its own.)

Up front gain is psychological: "no animal was killed for this steak."
i.e. another one in the "wash me but don't make me wet" domain.
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windy95
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:14 pm

There are plenty of studies that show benefits of carbon sequestration through the proper management of grass fed livestock. Politicians continue to use the environment as an excuse to raise and change our habits that they do not like
MAGA2020 KAG2020
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:20 pm

windy95 wrote:
There are plenty of studies that show benefits of carbon sequestration through the proper management of grass fed livestock.


It would appear it can't... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1X17310338

And no matter what, a Forrest would beat it by a large margin.

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WildcatYXU
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:21 pm

Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:07 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Only if you don't make sure that people can afford it. Otherwise income tax on any worker in, or even profits from, the production, distribution and sales of food would be just as immoral.

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VSMUT
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:00 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Since when did meat become a basic food?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Since when did meat become a basic food?


Since when meat stopped to be basic food? If you don't consider it basic food, it is your problem. However it won't change the fact that a whole bunch of European countries has VAT on all food items. Including tap water.
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Aesma
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:30 pm

Well VAT is effective precisely because it applies to everything and everyone pays it.

Soybean Milk isn't milk, in fact in France it can't be called milk, it's a transformed foodstuff, that might even be quite unhealthy.
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cjg225
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.

We're an omnivorous species. The fact that some people choose to not eat meat is purely their own choice and one that comes with various risks. We've evolved over thousands upon thousands of years to eat meat, amongst other things, for sustenance... so, yes, meat is a basic food for humans.
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Kiwirob
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 pm

cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.


He’s probably one of those disgusting vegans!!
 
VSMUT
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:46 pm

cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.

We're an omnivorous species. The fact that some people choose to not eat meat is purely their own choice and one that comes with various risks. We've evolved over thousands upon thousands of years to eat meat, amongst other things, for sustenance... so, yes, meat is a basic food for humans.


Meat is a luxury, not a basic food.

Kiwirob wrote:
cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.


He’s probably one of those disgusting vegans!!


:lol:
 
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cjg225
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:55 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[Meat is a luxury, not a basic food.

Based on what? I'm genuinely curious to know, because it certainly isn't based on biology or logic.
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TLG
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:50 am

WIederling wrote:
Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


How does this work in real life? If I order fries from McDonald's, I pay 12% more to eat in the restaurant? Do they actually charge different prices for the exact same order based on where I eat it?
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:02 pm

TLG wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


How does this work in real life? If I order fries from McDonald's, I pay 12% more to eat in the restaurant? Do they actually charge different prices for the exact same order based on where I eat it?


McDonalds gets less from the sales, End-customer price remains the same.

cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[Meat is a luxury, not a basic food.

Based on what? I'm genuinely curious to know, because it certainly isn't based on biology or logic.


History. Meat consumption has increased 6 times since 1960, the worlds population only 2.5 times. Neither biology nor logic has changed in the last couple of 1000 years.....

Before meat was a cheap mass produced product pretty much everyone in the developed world could have as much of it as they liked, meat consumption was on the order of 25 Kg/year, and that was without people being malnourished. Just 1/3 of the Indian population is vegetarian, but they still just eat 4Kg per year on average.....

Eating more than a little meat seems to have been luxury historically.

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Aesma
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:34 pm

TLG wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


How does this work in real life? If I order fries from McDonald's, I pay 12% more to eat in the restaurant? Do they actually charge different prices for the exact same order based on where I eat it?


McDonald's would be entitled to charge differently, some restaurants certainly do, but not McDonald's.

A common fraud is for snack joints to charge one price that covers the higher tax, but to pretend most/everything was bought as take away, giving less tax to the state.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cledaybuck
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:46 pm

TLG wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


How does this work in real life? If I order fries from McDonald's, I pay 12% more to eat in the restaurant? Do they actually charge different prices for the exact same order based on where I eat it?

That's how they do it here in Ohio (where food is not taxed). They always ask for here or to go. If to go, only the soda is taxed and the food is tax free. If here, all food and drink is taxed at the normal sales tax rate (currently 7.5% in the county where I live).
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:39 pm

Meat production, especially beef cattle, is an enormous producer of greenhouse gases and major contributor to climate change.
As we speak, vast swathes of the amazon forest are being burned to make room for more agricultural space, much of which goes towards sustaining cattle raising.

Its consumption has exploded in the last few decades and unfortunately, much of it consists of low-quality meat for the fast-food industry and cheap ground-meat-based products.

We do not need to consume that much beef. In fact, in some nations, a greater diversification of protein intake would benefit the population, health-wise.

We'll all pay for the effects of climate change, one way or another. In that regard, it only makes sense that those who contribute the most to the greenhouse effect contribute the most financially as well. It's only fair.

Of course, these contributions should go towards carbon offset schemes rather than plug holes in government deficits, but that's another debate...
As for the effectiveness of taxing to curb consumption, I'm sure there are drawbacks, and it ideally should come along with a scheme that incentivizes consumers to fall back on the desired alternative. This is where governments are much less effective...

That said, there is no denying that beef consumption is an environmental disaster and anything done to curb it to more reasonable levels is welcome.
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cjg225
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:23 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
History. Meat consumption has increased 6 times since 1960, the worlds population only 2.5 times. Neither biology nor logic has changed in the last couple of 1000 years.....

Before meat was a cheap mass produced product pretty much everyone in the developed world could have as much of it as they liked, meat consumption was on the order of 25 Kg/year, and that was without people being malnourished. Just 1/3 of the Indian population is vegetarian, but they still just eat 4Kg per year on average.....

Eating more than a little meat seems to have been luxury historically.

And yet biologically we're geared to eat meat in addition to plants, so I guess it is, in fact, a "basic" food.
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:51 am

cjg225 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
History. Meat consumption has increased 6 times since 1960, the worlds population only 2.5 times. Neither biology nor logic has changed in the last couple of 1000 years.....

Before meat was a cheap mass produced product pretty much everyone in the developed world could have as much of it as they liked, meat consumption was on the order of 25 Kg/year, and that was without people being malnourished. Just 1/3 of the Indian population is vegetarian, but they still just eat 4Kg per year on average.....

Eating more than a little meat seems to have been luxury historically.

And yet biologically we're geared to eat meat in addition to plants, so I guess it is, in fact, a "basic" food.


Yeah.. we are omnivores, but we do just fine without meat because we are omnivores. If meat was "basic" we couldn´t live without it, but we live without it just fine. Most pacific islands didn´t have any animals with enough meat to justify hunting them, yet humans did just fine there. Meat may be common, especially where plant protein is hard to come by, but common and basic are two different animals.....

Biologically we are also geared to live in trees, that is why you have both eyes in front, that is what you can get your arms above your head vertically, that is why you have such a good grip, that is why we are pretty good at jumping..

Does that mean a roof above your head is luxury?

There simply is no reason to subsidize meat by charging a lower sales tax compared to many other food stuffs. That also doesn´t mean only the rich can afford meat, unless you want to say that only rich can afford being vegetarians, since most vegetarian/vegan foodstuffs come with 19% VAT. It would mean that people eat less meat. I am old enough to remember when vegetables where cheaper than meat, and guess what, we still had meat on the table. Maybe less, definitely less often, but thats it.

Almost all land mammalian biomass on this planet is animals we raise to eat them. Nature is geared for somewhat more diversity. Ok, all those cow, pig, sheep and so on genes played a nice trick training us "superior" humans to feed them, care for them, defend them and making sure that they procreate, but we can rid ourselves of being their servants ;-)

Image

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anrec80
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:50 am

Basically, the proposal here is to stop eating mammals, stop using any civilization advances including vehicles, and we all return to the nearest cave.
 
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Basically, the proposal here is to stop eating mammals, stop using any civilization advances including vehicles, and we all return to the nearest cave.


or you just keep the standard of living, but spend the tiny bit of extra resources to do it carbon neutral.

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PPVRA
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:24 pm

Meat isn’t a luxury, it’s necessary for proper health. Poor countries eat less of it because it is more expensive. Not a luxury, they just can’t afford it.

I know a long term vegan who was forced to abandon veganism over neurological problems that popped up after a decade and a half as a vegan. Don’t be fooled by people who claim this is a healthy lifestyle. We humans evolved on meat over millions of years.
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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos