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Aaron747
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German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:23 am

This is one of the wurst ideas I have come across in awhile as things intended to protect the environment go. Punishing consumers is not a realistic approach.

If they want to help the environment, promote synthetic meat. Several companies are already bringing product to market and production is scaling up. Doing this would allow mass planting of trees on land no longer needed for grazing and there would be fewer cow farts.

German politicians from the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens on Wednesday proposed raising the value added tax (VAT) on meat to the standard rate of 19%. Currently, meat is taxed at a reduced rate of 7% like most foodstuffs.

"I am in favor of abolishing the VAT reduction for meat and earmarking it for more animal welfare," said Friedrich Ostendorf, agricultural policy spokesperson for the Greens.


https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-meat-tax- ... a-49924795
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anrec80
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:58 am

WTF? Isn’t it going too far? They are already telling people what they should eat.
 
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seahawk
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:22 am

They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
German politicians from the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens on Wednesday proposed raising the value added tax (VAT) on meat to the standard rate of 19%. Currently, meat is taxed at a reduced rate of 7% like most foodstuffs.

"I am in favor of abolishing the VAT reduction for meat and earmarking it for more animal welfare," said Friedrich Ostendorf, agricultural policy spokesperson for the Greens.


https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-meat-tax- ... a-49924795


seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Yup, the little "most foodstuffs" at the end does not include, for example, baby food, or soy milk drink and lots of other food stuffs that lots of people do like.

Half of Germany's population describes itself as flexi-, vegetarian or vegan, why should they subsidize eating meat, when they have to pay the full VAT on lots of stuff they eat?

Best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:45 am

seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.

Lastly it is always easy to ridicule on details. But that is regularly not constructive ( and not intended to be either).
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:12 am

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


Because eating in a restaurant is not buying food, but buying a service. And those are 19%... unless it is a night in a Hotel, where it somehow is 7%.....

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.


Yup. The headline is wrong, no such thing as a meat tax... just the question: do we support and encourage meat production by keeping a low VAT on meat? Especially when meat is often cheaper than vegetables and fruit....

Cowmilk is 7%, Soybean Milk is 19%... WTH?
Apples: 7%, Apple Juice: 19% WTH?
Frog legs, quail's eggs, king prawns, turtle meat, fresh truffles are 7% ... as if those are staple foods...
Potatoes are 7%, unless they are sweet potatoes, then they are 19% ....
Baby food or medication: 19% as if people don´t need those....
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.

I would think 90+% could go to 19% with hardly anyone noticing...

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.


hinting, hinting, hinting.

we've major issues with fat kids. less so with fat dogs.
( same thing with excessively sweetened drinks.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They already do. Fresh tomatoes or frozen tomatoes have a 7% VAT, if they are dried it is 19%. The whole reduced tax rate is bullshit and everything should be taxed with 19%.


Even more unobvious:
eat your fries in the joint: 19%
take away : 7%


Because eating in a restaurant is not buying food, but buying a service. And those are 19%... unless it is a night in a Hotel, where it somehow is 7%.....

Most taxation schemes tend to develop "funnies" over time.
That doesn't void the intended purpose of differentiation.
It just degrades it slightly.


Yup. The headline is wrong, no such thing as a meat tax... just the question: do we support and encourage meat production by keeping a low VAT on meat? Especially when meat is often cheaper than vegetables and fruit....

Cowmilk is 7%, Soybean Milk is 19%... WTH?
Apples: 7%, Apple Juice: 19% WTH?
Frog legs, quail's eggs, king prawns, turtle meat, fresh truffles are 7% ... as if those are staple foods...
Potatoes are 7%, unless they are sweet potatoes, then they are 19% ....
Baby food or medication: 19% as if people don´t need those....
And the icing on the cake: cookies for dogs: 7%, cookies for kids: 19%.

I would think 90+% could go to 19% with hardly anyone noticing...

best regards
Thomas


Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

best regards
Thomas
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

best regards
Thomas


I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:36 am

Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


Soilent Green. OK. fixes some other issues too ( like the superannuated leaning on the youngsters income
and determining the future in a negative way like Brexit in the UK.)

The Greens are a religious setup.

The C-Church and the Fundi Christians can't accept sex ed as viable solution to underage pregnancies either.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:40 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but why are the Greens claiming this will help the environment when far more effective solutions are available?


far more effective solutions like?

I can drive my car ~100km for the CO2eq emissions of one Kg of meat and the total CO2eq emission from meat consumption is roughly the same as all the emissions from driving private cars, and it makes up ~70% of all food related emissions .....

best regards
Thomas


I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


So, instead of making meat a little more expensive you want to ban real meat?

Best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth
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Zeppi
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:14 am

IMHO the whole discussion is another total fail by the german polititians. A higher tax won't change anything, people would still buy the cheapest mass produced meat available at the discounters.
What would work is an EU wide ban on mass keeping of animals, that would reduce supply and hence increase the prices, making it more lucrative for the farmers too. Same goes for milk, the per liter price the farmers get is ridiculous, some is even subsidised to make milk farming economically viable at all.

tommy1808 wrote:
So, instead of making meat a little more expensive you want to ban real meat

If it were up to me I'd not ban it, but make it a LOT more expensive, see above. And not through a tax but in such a way the producers directly benefit from it and can keep the animals under the best conditions possible. And it is possible! The farm close to my house produces everything you can think of and directly sells it on site too, without a middleman like a supermarket. The cows and bulls have meadows to roam freely or go inside a large roomy stable if they wish, they even have massage devices which they love! :D
Same goes for geese, chicken, pigs and ducks. Their per kg price of most meat and poultry products is roughly one third higher than what you pay at a supermarket, but that's certainly well worth paying as the quality is a whole world different too.

There are some approaches to in vitro meat (which I assume is what Aaron747 meant), real meat grown from stem cells in the lab. Certainly also worth looking into more for usage where products are mass produced and organically farmed meat would be way too expensive.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:35 am

WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth


As Zeppi said, I am referring to laboratory meat companies - they will change the marketplace big-time, and potentially sooner than you think. Vat grown is something of a pejorative as this new field is now accepted to be a branch of ‘cellular agriculture’.
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WIederling
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I mentioned the market and environmental potenial of synthetic meat in the OP. It’s worth looking into.


What kind of synthetic meat were you thinking about ?

vegi proteins cloaked as the real thing.
vat grown meat like "chicken little" from "The Space Merchants", Pohl, Kornbluth


As Zeppi said, I am referring to laboratory meat companies - they will change the marketplace big-time, and potentially sooner than you think. Vat grown is something of a pejorative as this new field is now accepted to be a branch of ‘cellular agriculture’.


complex and in an industrial context probably not significantly more environmentally friendly than
raising lifestock. ( for a start lifestock replicates on its own.)

Up front gain is psychological: "no animal was killed for this steak."
i.e. another one in the "wash me but don't make me wet" domain.
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windy95
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:14 pm

There are plenty of studies that show benefits of carbon sequestration through the proper management of grass fed livestock. Politicians continue to use the environment as an excuse to raise and change our habits that they do not like
MAGA2020 KAG2020
 
tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:20 pm

windy95 wrote:
There are plenty of studies that show benefits of carbon sequestration through the proper management of grass fed livestock.


It would appear it can't... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1X17310338

And no matter what, a Forrest would beat it by a large margin.

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WildcatYXU
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:21 pm

Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.
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tommy1808
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:07 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Only if you don't make sure that people can afford it. Otherwise income tax on any worker in, or even profits from, the production, distribution and sales of food would be just as immoral.

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VSMUT
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:00 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Since when did meat become a basic food?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Any tax on basic food items is immoral. Period.


Since when did meat become a basic food?


Since when meat stopped to be basic food? If you don't consider it basic food, it is your problem. However it won't change the fact that a whole bunch of European countries has VAT on all food items. Including tap water.
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Aesma
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:30 pm

Well VAT is effective precisely because it applies to everything and everyone pays it.

Soybean Milk isn't milk, in fact in France it can't be called milk, it's a transformed foodstuff, that might even be quite unhealthy.
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cjg225
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.

We're an omnivorous species. The fact that some people choose to not eat meat is purely their own choice and one that comes with various risks. We've evolved over thousands upon thousands of years to eat meat, amongst other things, for sustenance... so, yes, meat is a basic food for humans.
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Kiwirob
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 pm

cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.


He’s probably one of those disgusting vegans!!
 
VSMUT
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:46 pm

cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.

We're an omnivorous species. The fact that some people choose to not eat meat is purely their own choice and one that comes with various risks. We've evolved over thousands upon thousands of years to eat meat, amongst other things, for sustenance... so, yes, meat is a basic food for humans.


Meat is a luxury, not a basic food.

Kiwirob wrote:
cjg225 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Since when did meat become a basic food?

I'm really, really hoping you're being sarcastic with that, because if you're not, then... yikes.


He’s probably one of those disgusting vegans!!


:lol:
 
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cjg225
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Re: German Pols Considering Meat Tax

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:55 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[Meat is a luxury, not a basic food.

Based on what? I'm genuinely curious to know, because it certainly isn't based on biology or logic.
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