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Aaron747
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:52 pm

N1611B wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Wow, someone that sides with Antifa. You must condone punching someone in the face if their viewpoint is different than yours. For all the rumble, Antifa is the same as the brown shirts of the Hitler days.


Um no. Wow. I cannot fathom that I'm living in a time where supposedly patriotic Americans are equating concerned citizens with a paramilitary force that supported a murderous authoritarian state. Antifa's violent acts are illegal, and their reactions are emotionally charged and manifestly counterproductive, but they are not 'brownshirting' by any means. FFS....as has already been repeated numerous times, if there were no nativist goons advocating the government control the lives of other citizens, there would be little or no Antifa gathering activity.


Per the DHS and FBI, Antifa is anticapitalist. Should we abolish capitalism just to appeal to some masked psychopaths?


Nobody said that - what's with the rampant non sequiturs? It's like you guys never took an elementary critical thinking course in college. I would most definitely have failed most of you had you been in my class.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
2122M
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:52 pm

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

They have also been spotted violently attacking people attending Trump rallies. Smashing journalists over the head. One journalist even reported that at one rally Antifa were calling everyone who wasn't wearing a mask "Nazis" and were physically beating everyone that they came across. Not to mention the fact that you had an Antifa supporter who recently killed 9 people in Dayton, Ohio...had another one firebomb and shoot up an ICE facility out west, and had an Antifa "firearms instructor" get killed by police officers after trying to rush into a school with a gun. Antifa are nothing more than anarchists. The fact that the Obama administration labeled them as a domestic terror group says it all.

And yet right wing extremists are responsible for nearly every last extremist-related murder, it was a republican senator that body slammed a guardian journalist, and frankly the whole right wing ecosystem from the top down to the bottom vilifies journalists daily. Antifa might be awful, but it doesn't hold a candle to the right. To pretend otherwise is to give credence to the white supremacist/nativist/nazi violence occurring regularly.

Do you have a citation for the Obama administ

ration labeling antifa as a domestic terror group?

Oh never mind I just noticed your nonsense about the Dayton shooter. You're completely disingenuous and transparently trying to minimize and obfuscate the actual violence so there's no point in talking to you.


What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?

Also, the links you requested:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/ ... fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27881.html

"Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO."

No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?


Those violent Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them. But they are not NEARLY as bad as the people they are counter-protesting against.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:54 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
And yet right wing extremists are responsible for nearly every last extremist-related murder, it was a republican senator that body slammed a guardian journalist, and frankly the whole right wing ecosystem from the top down to the bottom vilifies journalists daily. Antifa might be awful, but it doesn't hold a candle to the right. To pretend otherwise is to give credence to the white supremacist/nativist/nazi violence occurring regularly.

Do you have a citation for the Obama administ

ration labeling antifa as a domestic terror group?

Oh never mind I just noticed your nonsense about the Dayton shooter. You're completely disingenuous and transparently trying to minimize and obfuscate the actual violence so there's no point in talking to you.


What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?

Also, the links you requested:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/ ... fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27881.html

"Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO."

No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?


Those violent Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them. But they are not NEARLY as bad as the people they are counter-protesting against.


This. Or put another way, both Antifa and nativist groups are unAmerican - but the nativists are the worst brand of unAmerican.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Um no. Wow. I cannot fathom that I'm living in a time where supposedly patriotic Americans are equating concerned citizens with a paramilitary force that supported a murderous authoritarian state. Antifa's violent acts are illegal, and their reactions are emotionally charged and manifestly counterproductive, but they are not 'brownshirting' by any means. FFS....as has already been repeated numerous times, if there were no nativist goons advocating the government control the lives of other citizens, there would be little or no Antifa gathering activity.


Concerned citizens? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Nothing goes against the grain of liberty than stifling someone's opinions. I could care less if someone preached hat and doo an eveyone because he hated everyone. So what. Is it hurting you? No, then move along. Don't like the message, change the station.

Same thing, Ben Shapiro gets shouted down, fire alarms get pulled so he can't speak. You are all afraid of liberty if you condone that sort of behavior.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:01 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
And yet right wing extremists are responsible for nearly every last extremist-related murder, it was a republican senator that body slammed a guardian journalist, and frankly the whole right wing ecosystem from the top down to the bottom vilifies journalists daily. Antifa might be awful, but it doesn't hold a candle to the right. To pretend otherwise is to give credence to the white supremacist/nativist/nazi violence occurring regularly.

Do you have a citation for the Obama administ

ration labeling antifa as a domestic terror group?

Oh never mind I just noticed your nonsense about the Dayton shooter. You're completely disingenuous and transparently trying to minimize and obfuscate the actual violence so there's no point in talking to you.


What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?

Also, the links you requested:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/ ... fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27881.html

"Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO."

No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?


Those violent Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them. But they are not NEARLY as bad as the people they are counter-protesting against.


Fair enough.
 
2122M
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:01 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Um no. Wow. I cannot fathom that I'm living in a time where supposedly patriotic Americans are equating concerned citizens with a paramilitary force that supported a murderous authoritarian state. Antifa's violent acts are illegal, and their reactions are emotionally charged and manifestly counterproductive, but they are not 'brownshirting' by any means. FFS....as has already been repeated numerous times, if there were no nativist goons advocating the government control the lives of other citizens, there would be little or no Antifa gathering activity.


Concerned citizens? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Nothing goes against the grain of liberty than stifling someone's opinions. I could care less if someone preached hat and doo an eveyone because he hated everyone. So what. Is it hurting you? No, then move along. Don't like the message, change the station.

Same thing, Ben Shapiro gets shouted down, fire alarms get pulled so he can't speak. You are all afraid of liberty if you condone that sort of behavior.


The one thing a tolerant society should not tolerate is intolerance.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:02 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Um no. Wow. I cannot fathom that I'm living in a time where supposedly patriotic Americans are equating concerned citizens with a paramilitary force that supported a murderous authoritarian state. Antifa's violent acts are illegal, and their reactions are emotionally charged and manifestly counterproductive, but they are not 'brownshirting' by any means. FFS....as has already been repeated numerous times, if there were no nativist goons advocating the government control the lives of other citizens, there would be little or no Antifa gathering activity.


Concerned citizens? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Nothing goes against the grain of liberty than stifling someone's opinions. I could care less if someone preached hat and doo an eveyone because he hated everyone. So what. Is it hurting you? No, then move along. Don't like the message, change the station.

Same thing, Ben Shapiro gets shouted down, fire alarms get pulled so he can't speak. You are all afraid of liberty if you condone that sort of behavior.


The one thing a tolerant society should not tolerate is intolerance.


Agreed, that's why groups that shout down legitimate speakers (like Antifa) are so loathsome, IMO.
 
extender
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:03 pm

Should, but that is why it is called tolerance. You may not like the message, but you cannot muzzle the message.
 
2122M
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:07 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
extender wrote:

Concerned citizens? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Nothing goes against the grain of liberty than stifling someone's opinions. I could care less if someone preached hat and doo an eveyone because he hated everyone. So what. Is it hurting you? No, then move along. Don't like the message, change the station.

Same thing, Ben Shapiro gets shouted down, fire alarms get pulled so he can't speak. You are all afraid of liberty if you condone that sort of behavior.


The one thing a tolerant society should not tolerate is intolerance.


Agreed, that's why groups that shout down legitimate speakers (like Antifa) are so loathsome, IMO.


Aren't counter-protesters just exercising their 1st amendment rights too?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:10 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Um no. Wow. I cannot fathom that I'm living in a time where supposedly patriotic Americans are equating concerned citizens with a paramilitary force that supported a murderous authoritarian state. Antifa's violent acts are illegal, and their reactions are emotionally charged and manifestly counterproductive, but they are not 'brownshirting' by any means. FFS....as has already been repeated numerous times, if there were no nativist goons advocating the government control the lives of other citizens, there would be little or no Antifa gathering activity.


Concerned citizens? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Nothing goes against the grain of liberty than stifling someone's opinions. I could care less if someone preached hat and doo an eveyone because he hated everyone. So what. Is it hurting you? No, then move along. Don't like the message, change the station.

Same thing, Ben Shapiro gets shouted down, fire alarms get pulled so he can't speak. You are all afraid of liberty if you condone that sort of behavior.


I did not condone it - I pointed out why equating it with brownshirts is ridiculous and false - and in a sense, exactly what you accuse Antifa of. And as I also said, I have reported anarchists to police when attending protests in the past.

I don’t like SJWs, do not associate with them, but as a libertarian, find them less annoying than nativist groups seeking public policies that will control the lives of others for no logical reason.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

The one thing a tolerant society should not tolerate is intolerance.


Agreed, that's why groups that shout down legitimate speakers (like Antifa) are so loathsome, IMO.


Aren't counter-protesters just exercising their 1st amendment rights too?


Sure, and as long as that is all they are doing, I'm fine with that. But pulling fire alarms, preventing others from speaking, resorting to violence, etc should be addressed by law enforcement.
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
Posts: 17585
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:19 pm

N1611B wrote:
What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?


In what way did his shooting up a bar reflect the left wing or antifa values and/or further their cause?

N1611B wrote:
No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?

You're defending the murderous right with every breath huffing and puffing about antifa while being quit as a church mouse about actual extremist violence. And really, that's the whole point--hell it's even in the GOP playbook--the more you can obfuscate and normalize the right's violence by whining about antifa, the more people will forget about it. There is no objective way to look at the dozens and dozens of right wing murders and instead blame antifa for their zero murders--but if someone wanted to shift the narrative and cover for the right, they'd be doing exactly what you and others are doing here.

Aaron747 wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?

Also, the links you requested:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/ ... fbi-242235

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27881.html

"Federal authorities have been warning state and local officials since early 2016 that leftist extremists known as “antifa” had become increasingly confrontational and dangerous, so much so that the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO."

No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?


Those violent Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them. But they are not NEARLY as bad as the people they are counter-protesting against.


This. Or put another way, both Antifa and nativist groups are unAmerican - but the nativists are the worst brand of unAmerican.

:checkmark: :checkmark: One of these groups reliably murders a lot of people, and until I see a commensurate level of outrage for actual murder that I see for a bunch of rabble rousing anarchists, then maybe we'll have something to talk about. Until then the right is just giving cover for its murderous henchmen.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:22 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
What "nonsense" about the Dayton shooter? CNN reported that he was a left-wing Antifa supporter. Do you have a link to suggest otherwise?


In what way did his shooting up a bar reflect the left wing or antifa values and/or further their cause?


I would say that you could ask the shooter, but he's dead. I certainly can't speak for him. His social media speaks for itself, though.

MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?

You're defending the murderous right with every breath huffing and puffing about antifa while being quit as a church mouse about actual extremist violence. And really, that's the whole point--hell it's even in the GOP playbook--the more you can obfuscate and normalize the right's violence by whining about antifa, the more people will forget about it. There is no objective way to look at the dozens and dozens of right wing murders and instead blame antifa for their zero murders--but if someone wanted to shift the narrative and cover for the right, they'd be doing exactly what you and others are doing here.


Please show me exactly where I defended extremists of any sort on here.
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:26 pm

N1611B wrote:
I certainly can't speak for him. His social media speaks for itself, though.

Well golly by all means tell us what it's saying

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
No one here is defending Nazis. You seem to be defending Antifa. Why are you so eager to defend violent domestic terrorists? How hard is it to say, "Those Antifa guys are bad and I do not support them"?

You're defending the murderous right with every breath huffing and puffing about antifa while being quit as a church mouse about actual extremist violence. And really, that's the whole point--hell it's even in the GOP playbook--the more you can obfuscate and normalize the right's violence by whining about antifa, the more people will forget about it. There is no objective way to look at the dozens and dozens of right wing murders and instead blame antifa for their zero murders--but if someone wanted to shift the narrative and cover for the right, they'd be doing exactly what you and others are doing here.


Please show me exactly where I defended extremists of any sort on here.

The whole narrative is to equate antifa with right wing extremism, when only one has a massive body count. By merely making the comparison you're saying they're equivalent, like creationism and evolution, or climate change and climate denialism, like gun control and hurr-durr-hurrr video games 'n mental health 'n thoughts 'n prayers, when the reality is cyrstal clear that one of those things is real, while the other is almost entirely made up.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:32 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
I certainly can't speak for him. His social media speaks for itself, though.
Well golly by all means tell us what it's saying


It said that he was an Antifa supporting radical leftist.

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
You're defending the murderous right with every breath huffing and puffing about antifa while being quit as a church mouse about actual extremist violence. And really, that's the whole point--hell it's even in the GOP playbook--the more you can obfuscate and normalize the right's violence by whining about antifa, the more people will forget about it. There is no objective way to look at the dozens and dozens of right wing murders and instead blame antifa for their zero murders--but if someone wanted to shift the narrative and cover for the right, they'd be doing exactly what you and others are doing here.


Please show me exactly where I defended extremists of any sort on here.

The whole narrative is to equate antifa with right wing extremism, when only one has a massive body count. By merely making the comparison you're saying they're equivalent, like creationism and evolution, or climate change and climate denialism, like gun control and hurr-durr-hurrr video games 'n mental health 'n thoughts 'n prayers, when the reality is cyrstal clear that one of those things is real, while the other is almost entirely made up.


No one is trying to "equate" the two. I've said that both are bad. You seem to want to ignore Antifa because their violence doesn't fit your narrative. They are bad people, and both Democratic and Republican administrations have acknowledged as much. They don't need to be treated like ISIS, but they also do not need to be ignored. Thankfully, the DHS and FBI are on top of it.
 
2122M
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:39 pm

N1611B wrote:
No one is trying to "equate" the two. I've said that both are bad.



Classic.....
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:40 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
No one is trying to "equate" the two. I've said that both are bad.



Classic.....


So your argument is that Antifa, a violent domestic terror group, is good? Scary.
 
2122M
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:46 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
No one is trying to "equate" the two. I've said that both are bad.



Classic.....


So your argument is that Antifa, a violent domestic terror group, is good? Scary.


My point is clear enough above.

Its just very, very funny to me that you can say with what I presume is a straight face that you are not trying to equate the two, then immediately you went ahead and equated the two.

One group is a collection of the very worst people in the world. I mean the absolute worst. Hitler is regarded as one of the most evil people in history and he is an icon to these horrific people.

One group is really, really pissed off that Neo-Nazis exist in 2019 and have decided to not let them spout their evil, backwards nonsense all day long without resistance.

So lets try this, since I played your game earlier, I want you to concede that Neo-Nazis are WORSE than antifa. I'll even allow that there are violent 'bad actors' on both sides, but from an ideological standpoint, can you agree that the Proud Boys infinitely worse than antifa?
 
extender
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:51 pm

Neo Nazis have existed for at least 40 years. Being an apologist/supporter for Antifa speaks volume as to one's character.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:53 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:


Classic.....


So your argument is that Antifa, a violent domestic terror group, is good? Scary.


My point is clear enough above.

Its just very, very funny to me that you can say with what I presume is a straight face that you are not trying to equate the two, then immediately you went ahead and equated the two.

One group is a collection of the very worst people in the world. I mean the absolute worst. Hitler is regarded as one of the most evil people in history and he is an icon to these horrific people.

One group is really, really pissed off that Neo-Nazis exist in 2019 and have decided to not let them spout their evil, backwards nonsense all day long without resistance.

So lets try this, since I played your game earlier, I want you to concede that Neo-Nazis are WORSE than antifa. I'll even allow that there are violent 'bad actors' on both sides, but from an ideological standpoint, can you agree that the Proud Boys infinitely worse than antifa?


It depends. Communism killed more people in the USSR and China than Hitler could have dreamed of, so I'd say that violent communists are just as bad as violent nazis. I support the right of both groups to peacefully protest and demonstrate. I'm also against anyone that advocates violent action against others because of their viewpoints, regardless of how loathsome those viewpoints might be.

I will say that the radial right has been more violent than Antifa or the fringe left. Beating someone because you don't like what they have to say is bad, but it is not as bad as murdering 20+ people because you don't like their ethnicity. Still, that does not mean that one action excuses the other. Just because Antifa isn't going out there on mass killing sprees doesn't mean that they are not violent or not dangerous.
 
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Re: Portland prepares for city's largest far-right rally of the Trump era

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:03 pm

This thread went way off topic. Feel free to open a new thread if you want to continue to discuss one of these topics in a spearate thread.

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