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Phlogopite
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:22 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:54 am

Good move! We see a lot of flights from Switzerland to leisure destinations (too often for very short trip) which make less ecological sense. Such a tax could help to reduce this kind of traffic, promote more ecological transport solutions and provide fundings for these ecological alternatives.


Blerg wrote:
How exactly have you come to the conclusion that Swiss people want less air traffic?


Probably from this survey which showed that almost 70% of the Swiss would be favourable to such a tax: https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/10104967-pres-de-70-des-suisses-seraient-favorables-a-taxer-les-billets-d-avion.html.
 
vegas005
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:07 am

tommy1808 wrote:
axiom wrote:
usxguy wrote:
Why should air travelers have to pay for things not related to air travel?


The tax is to offset the negative environmental impact of flying, in part by subsidizing technologies which also offset emissions. For a tax, the basis and application of funds is actually quite linear.

I hope to see this policy put to law. The science is unequivocal: we need to curb emissions dramatically to avoid a catastrophic situation.


And 30 to 120 CHF sounds just about right for carbon offset of flying... 1 ~ 4 tons.

Best regards
Thomas



The science is a hoax and is FAR from unequivocal. Show me some real data because there is none.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2238
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:11 am

jghealey wrote:
Is this for both shorthaul flights and longhaul flights? A minimum 30chf tax even on shorthaul flights would effectively be doubling the cost of many flights...


$30 flights shouldn't exist. That is the problem.
 
vegas005
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
vegas005 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And 30 to 120 CHF sounds just about right for carbon offset of flying... 1 ~ 4 tons.

Best regards
Thomas



The science is a hoax and is FAR from unequivocal. Show me some real data because there is none.


The science is Spot on, even the models Exxon used in studies 40 years ago have come true verbatim.

Real data vs. Prediction vs. Hoax study used by climate deniers way back:

Image

http://www.climate-skeptic.com/temperature_measurement/
Best regards
Sam
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13700
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:36 am

vegas005 wrote:


So... your reply to current data, confirmed by multiple sources, is a 12 year old blog post, not confirmed by anything, written at the end of the hottest decade on record...

Hilarious...

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
snasteve
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:58 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:03 am

planecane wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
its truly beyond me how anyone can argue any of this. Effects poorer people more? If we continue down the road we are on, the entire population will have far worse problems than everything being expensive, like no more place to live, or no more air that's breathable.

We attack this NOW on all fronts, not later, or society will fail, and there is #NOplanetB

No more air that's breathable? What? No more places to live? How does a few PPM of additional CO2 make air not breathable? Even the worst case scenario climate alarmists only predict inches of sea level rise. Sure it can have some effect on coastal communities but it isn't going to flood the world.

These hyperbolic, apocalyptic statements do more harm than good to environmental movements. If you want to reduce CO2 emissions be rational about it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless China and India are willing to drastically reduce CO2 emissions, it won't matter one bit if Europe and the US went to zero emissions tomorrow.


It would make a huge difference if Europe and the US went to zero emissions. As they probably would only do that if they found a way to make it also profitable, which inevitably would cause the others to follow.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4245
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:39 am

Phlogopite wrote:
Good move! We see a lot of flights from Switzerland to leisure destinations (too often for very short trip) which make less ecological sense. Such a tax could help to reduce this kind of traffic, promote more ecological transport solutions and provide fundings for these ecological alternatives.


Blerg wrote:
How exactly have you come to the conclusion that Swiss people want less air traffic?


Probably from this survey which showed that almost 70% of the Swiss would be favourable to such a tax: https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/10104967-pres-de-70-des-suisses-seraient-favorables-a-taxer-les-billets-d-avion.html.


Please pay more attention, he said Swiss want to see less air traffic. And what is a more ecological alternative? A train that uses electricity that comes from fossil fuels?
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9744
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:07 pm

Blerg wrote:
Phlogopite wrote:
Good move! We see a lot of flights from Switzerland to leisure destinations (too often for very short trip) which make less ecological sense. Such a tax could help to reduce this kind of traffic, promote more ecological transport solutions and provide fundings for these ecological alternatives.


Blerg wrote:
How exactly have you come to the conclusion that Swiss people want less air traffic?


Probably from this survey which showed that almost 70% of the Swiss would be favourable to such a tax: https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/10104967-pres-de-70-des-suisses-seraient-favorables-a-taxer-les-billets-d-avion.html.


Please pay more attention, he said Swiss want to see less air traffic. And what is a more ecological alternative? A train that uses electricity that comes from fossil fuels?


Sure, per passenger a train is producing much less CO2 emission. And all actions by the Swiss indicate that they are willing to loose air traffic. Higher landing fees, extended curfews, eco tax,... are all measures that are meant to reduce air traffic or slow the growth, which in the end is the same.
 
LittleSprocket
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:26 pm

For all you climate alarmist... please explain how every planet, to include Pluto is under going some sort of global warming. Is Al Gore there in his caravan full of gas guzzling SUV’s or do they have a problem with commercial aviation as well? Article is from 2002, about the time this man made climate change nonsense started.

http://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto
 
Blerg
Posts: 4245
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:09 pm

seahawk wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Phlogopite wrote:
Good move! We see a lot of flights from Switzerland to leisure destinations (too often for very short trip) which make less ecological sense. Such a tax could help to reduce this kind of traffic, promote more ecological transport solutions and provide fundings for these ecological alternatives.




Probably from this survey which showed that almost 70% of the Swiss would be favourable to such a tax: https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/10104967-pres-de-70-des-suisses-seraient-favorables-a-taxer-les-billets-d-avion.html.


Please pay more attention, he said Swiss want to see less air traffic. And what is a more ecological alternative? A train that uses electricity that comes from fossil fuels?


Sure, per passenger a train is producing much less CO2 emission. And all actions by the Swiss indicate that they are willing to loose air traffic. Higher landing fees, extended curfews, eco tax,... are all measures that are meant to reduce air traffic or slow the growth, which in the end is the same.


Once again you are passing your own interpretations as facts. Nowhere does it say that they want fewer flights, all it says is that they want aviation to finance other industries and their ecological advancements. With less planes flying around there will be less money for ecology, so wanting to see fewer planes would go against their basic interests. As for trains, sure, they produce less CO2 now but what happens when more and more people switch to trains and when there is a growing need for more tracks and trains? Are we going to start a jihad on the railway industry as well? Will we encourage people to take their bicycle to Spain or Greece when going on holidays? Why stop there, why not force the Swiss government to ban all flights that are shorter than 90 minutes? Do we need so many flights to Geneva, Vienna, Munich...? People should take the train for God's sake! Does LX need a major hub? Do they need transfer passengers which cause extra pollution? Maybe it's time for them to scale back.

Furthermore, what will happen if other countries don't follow this nonsensical eco-obsession and their war on aviation? What will happen if more people switch to flying out of neighboring countries or if Swiss starts to lose transfer passengers to other airlines?
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9744
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:27 pm

Maybe people should not go on holiday in Spain or Greece. It would be better if they stay at home and explore the local area with a bike.
 
HBJZA
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:02 pm

Blerg wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Please pay more attention, he said Swiss want to see less air traffic. And what is a more ecological alternative? A train that uses electricity that comes from fossil fuels?


Sure, per passenger a train is producing much less CO2 emission. And all actions by the Swiss indicate that they are willing to loose air traffic. Higher landing fees, extended curfews, eco tax,... are all measures that are meant to reduce air traffic or slow the growth, which in the end is the same.


Once again you are passing your own interpretations as facts. Nowhere does it say that they want fewer flights, all it says is that they want aviation to finance other industries and their ecological advancements. With less planes flying around there will be less money for ecology, so wanting to see fewer planes would go against their basic interests. As for trains, sure, they produce less CO2 now but what happens when more and more people switch to trains and when there is a growing need for more tracks and trains? Are we going to start a jihad on the railway industry as well? Will we encourage people to take their bicycle to Spain or Greece when going on holidays? Why stop there, why not force the Swiss government to ban all flights that are shorter than 90 minutes? Do we need so many flights to Geneva, Vienna, Munich...? People should take the train for God's sake! Does LX need a major hub? Do they need transfer passengers which cause extra pollution? Maybe it's time for them to scale back.

Furthermore, what will happen if other countries don't follow this nonsensical eco-obsession and their war on aviation? What will happen if more people switch to flying out of neighboring countries or if Swiss starts to lose transfer passengers to other airlines?

Switzerland already have one of the most dense railway system in the world. Some major city links have trains every 15 minutes all day long. Actually our train system is efficient but already over crowded and over capacity! Switzerland is a tiny country but over populated. The key to reduce pollution locally would be to reduce the population.
So yes we could take the train to Vienna, Lyon, Zurich or Munich but we need to have seats on those trains!
 
Blerg
Posts: 4245
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:25 pm

HBJZA wrote:
Blerg wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Sure, per passenger a train is producing much less CO2 emission. And all actions by the Swiss indicate that they are willing to loose air traffic. Higher landing fees, extended curfews, eco tax,... are all measures that are meant to reduce air traffic or slow the growth, which in the end is the same.


Once again you are passing your own interpretations as facts. Nowhere does it say that they want fewer flights, all it says is that they want aviation to finance other industries and their ecological advancements. With less planes flying around there will be less money for ecology, so wanting to see fewer planes would go against their basic interests. As for trains, sure, they produce less CO2 now but what happens when more and more people switch to trains and when there is a growing need for more tracks and trains? Are we going to start a jihad on the railway industry as well? Will we encourage people to take their bicycle to Spain or Greece when going on holidays? Why stop there, why not force the Swiss government to ban all flights that are shorter than 90 minutes? Do we need so many flights to Geneva, Vienna, Munich...? People should take the train for God's sake! Does LX need a major hub? Do they need transfer passengers which cause extra pollution? Maybe it's time for them to scale back.

Furthermore, what will happen if other countries don't follow this nonsensical eco-obsession and their war on aviation? What will happen if more people switch to flying out of neighboring countries or if Swiss starts to lose transfer passengers to other airlines?

Switzerland already have one of the most dense railway system in the world. Some major city links have trains every 15 minutes all day long. Actually our train system is efficient but already over crowded and over capacity! Switzerland is a tiny country but over populated. The key to reduce pollution locally would be to reduce the population.
So yes we could take the train to Vienna, Lyon, Zurich or Munich but we need to have seats on those trains!


Nice, so we we went from reducing the number of planes to reducing the number of people. How charming, maybe you have some ways in which we can speed up the process? ;)
 
kimimm19
Topic Author
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boy, there are some short-sighted people in this thread already. :banghead:


It's mainly the Americans who don't see any effects of climate change yet unlike the Swiss who's winter tourism has suffered greatly due to less snow and shorter winter leisure seasons. They just want to keep driving their nonsensical big trucks.


LittleSprocket wrote:
For all you climate alarmist... please explain how every planet, to include Pluto is under going some sort of global warming. Is Al Gore there in his caravan full of gas guzzling SUV’s or do they have a problem with commercial aviation as well? Article is from 2002, about the time this man made climate change nonsense started.

http://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto


No one is denying that there is some warming and cooling periods that occur naturally. However, if you were to look at a bloody graph once in a while, you'd see that the warming in the past 30 years is exponentially more than it has ever been since records exist.
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This means fewer people will fly to/from Switzerland. The price/demand curve doesn't care what increases prices.



Lightsaber


That's the point. Fewer people flying means less CO2.


Please know your facts

Know the worldwide CO2 emittents and their numbers
And please dont forget the breath of peoples ( no, they do not have a photosynthesia, they are not CO2 neutral in their breathing at all)
And dont forget volcanos
And the packeis shelf
And the agriculture

And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2 ( well actually its not made from men, its unpacked by men because its already here since million of years ) them you first may have a look on china and india an africa.
Have you ever been there personally?
Have you seen how they tread their/ our enviroment?

Its very smart to deal properly with the environment
Its clever to think twice of some products or services if they damage our enviroment

But what is going on specialy in europe in the last months is beyond any sense at all
It simply shows how dumb the people are to hop on ideological driven campagnes

Its completely nonsense to tax carbon micro emmitents if the rest of the world ( china, india, africa ... well and russia and usa neither) are ignoring the case at all
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:13 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Boy, there are some short-sighted people in this thread already. :banghead:


It's mainly the Americans who don't see any effects of climate change yet unlike the Swiss who's winter tourism has suffered greatly due to less snow and shorter winter leisure seasons. They just want to keep driving their nonsensical big trucks.


LittleSprocket wrote:
For all you climate alarmist... please explain how every planet, to include Pluto is under going some sort of global warming. Is Al Gore there in his caravan full of gas guzzling SUV’s or do they have a problem with commercial aviation as well? Article is from 2002, about the time this man made climate change nonsense started.

http://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto


No one is denying that there is some warming and cooling periods that occur naturally. However, if you were to look at a bloody graph once in a while, you'd see that the warming in the past 30 years is exponentially more than it has ever been since records exist.


Well.
Im am NOT ignoring those graphs
But as you wrote... we didnt have recorded the transforming from an ice-age ( thats where we stand till a few million years) to a normal temperature age before.

Maybe we will not like how our world in the normal temperature age looks like and works.
We simply dont know
Men has not been here 50 million years ago

Maybe its normal to have a setup point where it flips within a few decades

Maybe its was the supervolcano last time
Maybe its the industrial revolution now

We will pretty shure not be able to stop it with silly taxes
 
YoungDon
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Lots of climate change deniers here, who I'm sure have never been somewhere like the Maldives and seen the effects of climate change on the ground, and simply don't believe the science because it might cause them to have to change something about their lifestyle or the nature of the economy.

If Switzerland wants to restrict flight capacity through taxation, let them. It's not the most efficient way to transfer money towards green projects in my view but it is a way. The science is clear and the effects are happening already all over the world, any progress towards slowing down the pace of change should be lauded.
 
kimimm19
Topic Author
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:17 pm

asdf wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:





Its completely nonsense to tax carbon micro emmitents if the rest of the world ( china, india, africa ... well and russia and usa neither) are ignoring the case at all


You're basically arguing, if others don't, why should we?

1. Doing something is better than nothing. Others in Europe will follow suit.
2. The USA still emits more CO2 per person than any other country.
3. It's complete nonsense to compare natural CO2 producers to manmade. When people say carbon neutral, they don't mean eradicating all carbon. Just excessive carbon.
 
planecane
Posts: 1585
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:17 pm

snasteve wrote:
planecane wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
its truly beyond me how anyone can argue any of this. Effects poorer people more? If we continue down the road we are on, the entire population will have far worse problems than everything being expensive, like no more place to live, or no more air that's breathable.

We attack this NOW on all fronts, not later, or society will fail, and there is #NOplanetB

No more air that's breathable? What? No more places to live? How does a few PPM of additional CO2 make air not breathable? Even the worst case scenario climate alarmists only predict inches of sea level rise. Sure it can have some effect on coastal communities but it isn't going to flood the world.

These hyperbolic, apocalyptic statements do more harm than good to environmental movements. If you want to reduce CO2 emissions be rational about it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but unless China and India are willing to drastically reduce CO2 emissions, it won't matter one bit if Europe and the US went to zero emissions tomorrow.


It would make a huge difference if Europe and the US went to zero emissions. As they probably would only do that if they found a way to make it also profitable, which inevitably would cause the others to follow.


Getting to absolute zero emissions is not possible in an economical way and without returning the standard of living to the 1800s. A 50% or more reduction is definitely possible and, slowly but surely, moving to renewables is becoming a profitable endeavor in the USA.

If we set realistic, but significant goals, a lot of progress can be made without hurting economies or standards of living. In the US, there is no carbon tax and more and more wind and solar is being installed every year. Some of that was from tax incentives but that spurred manufacturing volume of wind turbines and solar panels which led to lower prices.

I agree that if development in the US and Europe cut the costs of installing renewable capacity, the developing countries will install more capacity for economic benefits.
 
vegas005
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:18 pm

We will pretty shure not be able to stop it with silly taxes[/quote]


Correct. This is the biggest money grab in the history of the world. A complete farce.
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:20 pm

Blerg wrote:
HBJZA wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Once again you are passing your own interpretations as facts. Nowhere does it say that they want fewer flights, all it says is that they want aviation to finance other industries and their ecological advancements. With less planes flying around there will be less money for ecology, so wanting to see fewer planes would go against their basic interests. As for trains, sure, they produce less CO2 now but what happens when more and more people switch to trains and when there is a growing need for more tracks and trains? Are we going to start a jihad on the railway industry as well? Will we encourage people to take their bicycle to Spain or Greece when going on holidays? Why stop there, why not force the Swiss government to ban all flights that are shorter than 90 minutes? Do we need so many flights to Geneva, Vienna, Munich...? People should take the train for God's sake! Does LX need a major hub? Do they need transfer passengers which cause extra pollution? Maybe it's time for them to scale back.

Furthermore, what will happen if other countries don't follow this nonsensical eco-obsession and their war on aviation? What will happen if more people switch to flying out of neighboring countries or if Swiss starts to lose transfer passengers to other airlines?

Switzerland already have one of the most dense railway system in the world. Some major city links have trains every 15 minutes all day long. Actually our train system is efficient but already over crowded and over capacity! Switzerland is a tiny country but over populated. The key to reduce pollution locally would be to reduce the population.
So yes we could take the train to Vienna, Lyon, Zurich or Munich but we need to have seats on those trains!


Nice, so we we went from reducing the number of planes to reducing the number of people. How charming, maybe you have some ways in which we can speed up the process? ;)


cynicism doesnt help at all
Please try to remove your blindfold
Outside ( mostly leftwing) european mainstream media most opinions are that the numbers of men in world are the by far highest factor of carbon emission. No one could compensate that factor with reduction of the release of long term locked Carbon
 
vegas005
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:20 pm

YoungDon wrote:
Lots of climate change deniers here, who I'm sure have never been somewhere like the Maldives and seen the effects of climate change on the ground, and simply don't believe the science because it might cause them to have to change something about their lifestyle or the nature of the economy.

If Switzerland wants to restrict flight capacity through taxation, let them. It's not the most efficient way to transfer money towards green projects in my view but it is a way. The science is clear and the effects are happening already all over the world, any progress towards slowing down the pace of change should be lauded.



damage in the Maldives was done by bad weather, a huge hurricane and of course pollution from India....the biggest polluter on the planet. You climate spooks keep forgetting facts.
 
kimimm19
Topic Author
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:21 pm

asdf wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Boy, there are some short-sighted people in this thread already. :banghead:


It's mainly the Americans who don't see any effects of climate change yet unlike the Swiss who's winter tourism has suffered greatly due to less snow and shorter winter leisure seasons. They just want to keep driving their nonsensical big trucks.


LittleSprocket wrote:
For all you climate alarmist... please explain how every planet, to include Pluto is under going some sort of global warming. Is Al Gore there in his caravan full of gas guzzling SUV’s or do they have a problem with commercial aviation as well? Article is from 2002, about the time this man made climate change nonsense started.

http://news.mit.edu/2002/pluto


No one is denying that there is some warming and cooling periods that occur naturally. However, if you were to look at a bloody graph once in a while, you'd see that the warming in the past 30 years is exponentially more than it has ever been since records exist.


Well.
Im am NOT ignoring those graphs
But as you wrote... we didnt have recorded the transforming from an ice-age ( thats where we stand till a few million years) to a normal temperature age before.

Maybe we will not like how our world in the normal temperature age looks like and works.
We simply dont know
Men has not been here 50 million years ago

Maybe its normal to have a setup point where it flips within a few decades

Maybe its was the supervolcano last time
Maybe its the industrial revolution now

We will pretty shure not be able to stop it with silly taxes


There is plenty of evidence coming out all the time from extractions that disprove your theory.

I understand that you're against taxes and you think of us as small human beings that have absolutely no effect on anything around us. Must be nice to be able to absolve yourself from all your actions.

Point being: taxes are a way to generate necessary funds to implement countermeasures and eco projects.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:35 pm

asdf wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This means fewer people will fly to/from Switzerland. The price/demand curve doesn't care what increases prices.

Lightsaber


That's the point. Fewer people flying means less CO2.


Please know your facts

Know the worldwide CO2 emittents and their numbers
And please dont forget the breath of peoples ( no, they do not have a photosynthesia, they are not CO2 neutral in their breathing at all)
And dont forget volcanos
And the packeis shelf
And the agriculture

And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2 ( well actually its not made from men, its unpacked by men because its already here since million of years ) them you first may have a look on china and india an africa.


There is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels by mankind, if we burn them more or less at the same rate as nature is packing them. But that is the problem: nature has taken hundreds of millions of years to take that carbon out of the atmosphere and pack it fossil fuel fields. And we are unpacking them in just a couple of hundred years. The idea that nature and atmosphere will not react to that is totally unrealistic. Of course there will be a reaction, also in temperature. How much, we don't know for sure, but we have developed a pretty good idea. Do we have proof? Of course not, as burning fossil fuels at such grand macro scale has never been done before. How would one go about and provide proof that would be accepted by sceptics?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:43 pm

How ironic, Airbius launches an aircraft that leads to more international flying (a321LR) and it’s home continent is trying to discourage more flights.

If these green taxes go to the general treasury what is the point? Less flying? How many Europeans flew on LCCs to vacation spots or home to families? Wander why they did not take the train, its greener? More carbon taxes,cool, who auditing the spending on green solutions?
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:20 pm

asdf wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This means fewer people will fly to/from Switzerland. The price/demand curve doesn't care what increases prices.



Lightsaber


That's the point. Fewer people flying means less CO2.


Please know your facts

Know the worldwide CO2 emittents and their numbers
And please dont forget the breath of peoples ( no, they do not have a photosynthesia, they are not CO2 neutral in their breathing at all)
And dont forget volcanos
And the packeis shelf
And the agriculture

And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2 ( well actually its not made from men, its unpacked by men because its already here since million of years ) them you first may have a look on china and india an africa.
Have you ever been there personally?
Have you seen how they tread their/ our enviroment?

Its very smart to deal properly with the environment
Its clever to think twice of some products or services if they damage our enviroment

But what is going on specialy in europe in the last months is beyond any sense at all
It simply shows how dumb the people are to hop on ideological driven campagnes

Its completely nonsense to tax carbon micro emmitents if the rest of the world ( china, india, africa ... well and russia and usa neither) are ignoring the case at all


This will be my last comment on the thread because is has gone off topic. You are right in a sense, many are on the stop climate change bandwagon because of the idealogical campaign, but that doesn't mean they are not right. Also, you are right, we need to get the developing world on board, but the defeatest attitude that we should't do anything because its not fare for us to do more than them sounds more like a first grade playground than a reasonable response to a crisis that threatens to destroy our way of life.

I have checked my facts, although I don't currently work in the field I went to graduate school in Atmospheric Science at a time when the facts were beginning to make the heroic efforts by scientists trying to gain fame by disproving, the theory of global warming, completly unteniable.

I have been to India and Africa, but not China.

Air travel is a low percentage of our total CO2 emissions, but it is a good target for reducing emissions, because a decision not to fly on a particular trip is a one time decision that makes a much bigger reduction in personal emissions than any other one time decision that the vast majority of us make.
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:38 pm

PW100 wrote:
asdf wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:

That's the point. Fewer people flying means less CO2.


Please know your facts

Know the worldwide CO2 emittents and their numbers
And please dont forget the breath of peoples ( no, they do not have a photosynthesia, they are not CO2 neutral in their breathing at all)
And dont forget volcanos
And the packeis shelf
And the agriculture

And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2 ( well actually its not made from men, its unpacked by men because its already here since million of years ) them you first may have a look on china and india an africa.


There is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels by mankind, if we burn them more or less at the same rate as nature is packing them. But that is the problem: nature has taken hundreds of millions of years to take that carbon out of the atmosphere and pack it fossil fuel fields. And we are unpacking them in just a couple of hundred years. The idea that nature and atmosphere will not react to that is totally unrealistic. Of course there will be a reaction, also in temperature. How much, we don't know for sure, but we have developed a pretty good idea. Do we have proof? Of course not, as burning fossil fuels at such grand macro scale has never been done before. How would one go about and provide proof that would be accepted by sceptics?


Well

Very high carbon emission has been deployed bevor
The first time (men has notice from) about 25mill. Years ago it was the big meteorit
The second time about 3mill. Years aGo it was the supervulcano

It seems like the third time it will be the industrial evolution of men

I would be the first to ride in front if millions others to fight for the preserve of enviroment
I really would!
But as a technician i am to much captured in statistics and numbers and calculations.
It simply will make absolutely no sense for the western world to inappropriately restrict their citizens

They only do it
- because it is a way to gain more taxes
- because its driven by the leftwing media and they wont be critiziced for „doing nothing“

I personally find it unbelievable that so many european peoples have been indoctrinated by such ideas of self-flaggelation by the media

Can only be explained by the very low educational standards in the last decades
I am from one of those countrys ... sadly
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9744
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Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:52 pm

william wrote:
How ironic, Airbius launches an aircraft that leads to more international flying (a321LR) and it’s home continent is trying to discourage more flights.

If these green taxes go to the general treasury what is the point? Less flying? How many Europeans flew on LCCs to vacation spots or home to families? Wander why they did not take the train, its greener? More carbon taxes,cool, who auditing the spending on green solutions?


The better question is. why is the fuel used to power a train or the electricity taxed, why is the fuel your car uses taxed, why is even the gas and fuel you use to heat your home taxed, while the fuel used by the airliner is not taxed.
 
asdf
Posts: 704
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Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:04 pm

william wrote:
How ironic, Airbius launches an aircraft that leads to more international flying (a321LR) and it’s home continent is trying to discourage more flights.

If these green taxes go to the general treasury what is the point? Less flying? How many Europeans flew on LCCs to vacation spots or home to families? Wander why they did not take the train, its greener? More carbon taxes,cool, who auditing the spending on green solutions?


An interesting point

... and no, i think we are not off topic at all .....

How strong is the input of international travel for the peace on the world?

They tell us to avoid personal intrastate contacts to be more green
If the peoples of the world dont interchange as much as in the last decades .... i think the probability of a military action beetween those peoples will raise.
War is driven by states and by goverments, not by the populations.
But goverments wants to get elected again, they need to be in line of the public opinion ... more or less

If the public opinion about other peoples does not matter any more because they met less there will be a negativ influence of the peace in the world.

And what for?
To move the point of significant changes of the clima a few months in front?

It isnt worth
Not at all
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:12 pm

seahawk wrote:
william wrote:
How ironic, Airbius launches an aircraft that leads to more international flying (a321LR) and it’s home continent is trying to discourage more flights.

If these green taxes go to the general treasury what is the point? Less flying? How many Europeans flew on LCCs to vacation spots or home to families? Wander why they did not take the train, its greener? More carbon taxes,cool, who auditing the spending on green solutions?


The better question is. why is the fuel used to power a train or the electricity taxed, why is the fuel your car uses taxed, why is even the gas and fuel you use to heat your home taxed, while the fuel used by the airliner is not taxed.


Because that only works if every state will follow in line and tax it the same way.
But they wont

It is a question of economics
There will always be a few states around the world who will not tax
And as long as they dont tax the system will not work

You can not fill up the tank of your pick up in gambia
But you can rearrange a large part of your fleet network to let your planes make fill up landings in gambia
The re-routing will generate more pollution than as it was not taxed.

We speak about 10 or 15% tax minimum
In european countrys you pay up to on 80% tax on gas if you include the VAT ( also not taxed on planes fuel)
You can make a lot of re-routing for that numbers ...

you probably would need to think on military interventions or at least a large trade war over decades to bring all states in line of a tax on planes fuel
Last edited by asdf on Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
asdf
Posts: 704
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Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:30 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
asdf wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:





Its completely nonsense to tax carbon micro emmitents if the rest of the world ( china, india, africa ... well and russia and usa neither) are ignoring the case at all


You're basically arguing, if others don't, why should we?

1. Doing something is better than nothing. Others in Europe will follow suit.
2. The USA still emits more CO2 per person than any other country.
3. It's complete nonsense to compare natural CO2 producers to manmade. When people say carbon neutral, they don't mean eradicating all carbon. Just excessive carbon.


I am arguing that it is meaningless and pathetic to feel good as a westerns world inhabitant to pay a tax and safe the world that way.
It will not work.
It can not work.
If you reduce the co2 emission of men in the westen world to ZERO (what kicks us back in the tecnologie of the 18th century and has a very strong negativ impact on other parts of the enviroment ... think on the accumulators production and disposal) you have a overall CO2 reduction well below 1% .

There sadly will be no impact at all.

And to differ the natural CO2 emission from the man made is simply politics.
There is no difference at all.
I can not comment any more on that because of the forums guidelines and because there is no more connection the swiss plans of a CO2 tax on air travel

If you feel good on paying tax for CO2 emission feel free to do so.
But please dont expect others to do the same
Because it doesnt cure the problem
 
asdf
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:54 pm

PW100 wrote:
How would one go about and provide proof that would be accepted by sceptics?


No need to prove
I think temperature raises by the amount of released carbon

The question A is, what drives those carbon releases most?
Its more a kinda historical question, because the point of a realistic return already had been past decades ago.
At that time we didnt even knew about the carbon influence on our way of life.

The question B is, what can we do.
If you remove all the political ideology and check the numbers and check the demography and the geopolitical situation... you will simply cry
There is no way to go back

You would need to take out one fifth of the population
Or to cover 2/3 of the world in war to force those other countrys to follow basic enviroment standards
They simply say they dont have to, because the western world had polluted the enviroment for decades to gain a advantage over the third (developing) world and now it is their turn to pollute the world

No way to argue that in a intelligent way
And no way to outweight it with a swiss tax on air travel
:-(
 
tomcat
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:19 pm

seahawk wrote:
william wrote:
How ironic, Airbius launches an aircraft that leads to more international flying (a321LR) and it’s home continent is trying to discourage more flights.

If these green taxes go to the general treasury what is the point? Less flying? How many Europeans flew on LCCs to vacation spots or home to families? Wander why they did not take the train, its greener? More carbon taxes,cool, who auditing the spending on green solutions?


The better question is. why is the fuel used to power a train or the electricity taxed, why is the fuel your car uses taxed, why is even the gas and fuel you use to heat your home taxed, while the fuel used by the airliner is not taxed.


Seahawk, I'd be interested to know how the wholesale electricity is taxed (not talking about household electricity here), at least in Europe. Besides CO2 pricing on the emissions of the electricity producers, I have never found precise information about electricity taxation. In any case, even if wholesale electricity is taxed, given that it is a minor fraction of the operating cost of the trains it surely doesn't weigh on the train competitiveness vs the air travel like many people tend to pretend (I don't say it's your case). The lack of competitiveness and attractiveness of the train is to be found elsewhere. In Europe, the continent where I live, the lack of network and commercial integration is the major cause of the lack of attractiveness. A journey between 2 majors cities like Berlin and Madrid still requires about 25 hours and most of the time 5 connections even though it's exclusively crossing countries supposedly equipped with high speed networks. Our local "Greyhounds" are nearly as efficient for a fraction of the price. In China, the similar distance Hong-Kong - Beijing only takes 9 hours now. My take on this is that if our governments want to reduce or curb the air travel, the best way to achieve it is by promoting the competitiveness of the train. In support of this statement, we observe that where the train has been made efficient, it has taken most of the market share. Taxing air travel will never by itself reduce the journey time of the train travel.

On a side note, I'm always surprised to see many people criticizing new air travel taxes in tiny countries while I've never seen anyone complain about the massive taxes applied on air travel in the USA. I'm not a great fan of any form of taxation myself, but I notice that the Americans don't seem to complain about their own air travel taxes. To be specific, on the US domestic flights (which is a very significant market) the taxes are as follow:
Passenger Ticket Tax: 7.5%
Flight segment Tax: $4.20
There is even a little jet fuel tax.

There are no equivalent taxes in most of the European countries.
http://airlines.org/dataset/government-imposed-taxes-on-air-transportation/
 
DTVG
Posts: 61
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Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:56 pm

tomcat wrote:
The lack of competitiveness and attractiveness of the train is to be found elsewhere. In Europe, the continent where I live, the lack of network and commercial integration is the major cause of the lack of attractiveness. A journey between 2 majors cities like Berlin and Madrid still requires about 25 hours and most of the time 5 connections even though it's exclusively crossing countries supposedly equipped with high speed networks. Our local "Greyhounds" are nearly as efficient for a fraction of the price. In China, the similar distance Hong-Kong - Beijing only takes 9 hours now. My take on this is that if our governments want to reduce or curb the air travel, the best way to achieve it is by promoting the competitiveness of the train. In support of this statement, we observe that where the train has been made efficient, it has taken most of the market share.
http://airlines.org/dataset/government-imposed-taxes-on-air-transportation/


This is due to different system (gauges, voltages, standards, especially signaling and control systems). The political will to solve this issue is low. The EU has miserably failed to push/force a harmonization. At the same time it seems that local companies have strong lobbies slowing/preventing meaningful harmonization as domestic regulations shield them from foreign competition. Take France, Italy or Germany for example who are interested in keeping there (globally increasingly uncompetitive) train manufacturers alive. Thus it is no surprise that every thing is so fragmented and inefficient.
As you correctly point out, airlines are major profiteers of this mess.
 
LJ
Posts: 5379
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:29 am

dampfnudel wrote:
    moa999 wrote:
    And just watch the Swiss drive to an airport outside Switzerland to avoid it

    Until Germany and France does it too.


    AFAIK the French are going to implement an environment tax on aviation by 2020

    https://www.dw.com/en/france-to-impose-green-tax-on-flight-tickets-from-french-airports/a-49523359

    Germany seems to consider it as well

    https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report-international/german-environment-minister-calls-for-higher-flight-tax

    The same applies to The Netherlands

    https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2019/05/14/dutch-government-tables-national-flight-tax-bill

    But Belgium wants to do it only when its European

    https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/54244/belgium-proposes-european-tax-on-aviation/

    The Swiss need to drive to Italy or Austria to avoid the tax. However, that means they've to pay for using their highways, which reduces the benefit.
     
    tommy1808
    Posts: 13700
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    Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

    Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:45 am

    asdf wrote:
    And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2


    That low amount of CO2 is 100% of the CO2 emitted beyond the equilibrium state, which makes all natural sources irrelevant when it comes to climate change.

    Your "arguments" is one of the most obviously wrong.

    best regards
    Thomas
    Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
     
    asdf
    Posts: 704
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    Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

    Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:40 pm

    tommy1808 wrote:
    asdf wrote:
    And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2


    That low amount of CO2 is 100% of the CO2 emitted beyond the equilibrium state, which makes all natural sources irrelevant when it comes to climate change.

    Your "arguments" is one of the most obviously wrong.

    best regards
    Thomas


    To make a arbitrarily differenz between naturally released long time stored carbon like from vulcanos and from men relased carbon is simply populism to let the numbers fit in.

    There is no „good“ and no „bad“ carbon.

    It got released in an amount and has driven changes in magnitudes where it simply makes no more differenz if you stop the men made transport related relased long termin stored carbon now.

    The breath of the people worldwide, the relase from the agriculture, the natural relase via photosythesia .... they are sufficient to drive a clima change. No sense to stop all traffic and shut down the industrie ....
     
    dampfnudel
    Posts: 596
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    Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

    Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:38 pm

    LJ wrote:
    dampfnudel wrote:
      moa999 wrote:
      And just watch the Swiss drive to an airport outside Switzerland to avoid it

      Until Germany and France does it too.


      AFAIK the French are going to implement an environment tax on aviation by 2020

      https://www.dw.com/en/france-to-impose-green-tax-on-flight-tickets-from-french-airports/a-49523359

      Germany seems to consider it as well

      https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report-international/german-environment-minister-calls-for-higher-flight-tax

      The same applies to The Netherlands

      https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2019/05/14/dutch-government-tables-national-flight-tax-bill

      But Belgium wants to do it only when its European

      https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/54244/belgium-proposes-european-tax-on-aviation/

      The Swiss need to drive to Italy or Austria to avoid the tax. However, that means they've to pay for using their highways, which reduces the benefit.

      Additionally, if you live in Basel or Zürich, driving to Vienna or Milan may take longer than the flight itself. In other words, the inconvenience will most likely outweigh the extra expense.
      A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
       
      tommy1808
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:59 am

      asdf wrote:
      tommy1808 wrote:
      asdf wrote:
      And if it comes to the very low amount of men made CO2


      That low amount of CO2 is 100% of the CO2 emitted beyond the equilibrium state, which makes all natural sources irrelevant when it comes to climate change.

      Your "arguments" is one of the most obviously wrong.

      best regards
      Thomas


      To make a arbitrarily differenz between naturally released long time stored carbon like from vulcanos and from men relased carbon is simply populism to let the numbers fit in.


      No, it is a fact that the sum total of increase since pre-industrial age can be tracked nicely with the carbon emissions we made by burning fossil fuel and methane release from our life stock, that we can migrate to CO2eq neural by adopting the right grazing techniques as well...

      There is no „good“ and no „bad“ carbon.


      Good and Evil are subjective terms and even climate change, science and reality deniers will find CO2 sufficiently evil at a few vol.%.

      It is also quite bad carbon if my tax money goes to climate change migration, a totally preventable expenditure, instead of something useful.

      It got released in an amount and has driven changes in magnitudes where it simply makes no more differenz if you stop the men made transport related relased long termin stored carbon now.

      The breath of the people worldwide, the relase from the agriculture, the natural relase via photosythesia ....


      I guess you don´t really get what equilibrium means.....

      they are sufficient to drive a clima change.


      Oh.. that is why, when all of that was already present for 1000s of years climate was stable and only changed over geological time scales, while it picked up by a factor of 1000 or so once we added gigatonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere.

      I guess Cyano bacteria also never bothered to think about climate change from their Oxygen release...... no one would expect them with an IQ of zero due to not having brains..... until the "There is no good or bad oxygen" fraction realized they had just wiped out almost all live on the planet.

      No sense to stop all traffic and shut down the industrie ....


      A flight can be carbon neutral for about 10% of the ticket price, less on long haul, and i work in the manufacturing IT industry and we will be carbon neutral by 2021 for less than 1% cost increase..... why do we do that? Because it is the right thing to do and some of our bigger customers require us to do, although not necessarily that early.

      No need to shut down anything. Unless of course you don´t adress the issue, then your employer will shut down at some point. Over lack of customers. If for example Siemens is one of your customers, you are either carbon neutral by 2030 or they won´t be anymore. Good. Time to cull the cancer from our economy.

      best regards
      Thomas
      Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
       
      1989worstyear
      Posts: 887
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:06 am

      TObound wrote:
      The global aviation community had a choice to implement worldwide carbon taxes. Instead, we decided to let airlines keep flying 20-30 year old planes while adding capacity. Now governments are making decisions for the sector.

      You can either stick your head in the sand or get out ahead of an issue. The denialism seen on this thread is why it will only get worse.


      To be frank, you can still buy models produced 20-30 years ago, and yes, I'm referring to the A320 CEO.

      If the technology hasn't changed in 30 years, then what alternatives do the carriers have?
      Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
       
      tommy1808
      Posts: 13700
      Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:16 am

      1989worstyear wrote:
      If the technology hasn't changed in 30 years, then what alternatives do the carriers have?


      buy carbon neutral fuel or compensate the emissions from fossil fuel. You can get that for as little as 15 EUR per Tonne CO2. Even with the currently low oil prices that would drive up fuel only by 15%, or increase cost for a flight in the single digits.

      best regards
      Thomas
      Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
       
      1989worstyear
      Posts: 887
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:25 am

      tommy1808 wrote:
      1989worstyear wrote:
      If the technology hasn't changed in 30 years, then what alternatives do the carriers have?


      buy carbon neutral fuel or compensate the emissions from fossil fuel. You can get that for as little as 15 EUR per Tonne CO2. Even with the currently low oil prices that would drive up fuel only by 15%, or increase cost for a flight in the single digits.

      best regards
      Thomas


      Good point - alternative fuels have come a long way in the last 30 years even, if the planes have not. I think it was Austrian that started processing their used drinking cups into Jet A to supplement their fossil-based fuel.

      With oil being so volatile in the last 15 years I'm surprised the industry as a whole isn't embracing stuff like this a bit faster...
      Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
       
      User avatar
      seahawk
      Posts: 9744
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 am

      The airline industry in Europe will have to agree to a solution, or states will come up with increasingly high taxes. They could have agreed on a tiny CO2 surcharge to be used to plant trees to compensate emissions, but they did not. The 9 Euro ticket prices will soon come to haunt them.
       
      TObound
      Posts: 783
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:37 am

      1989worstyear wrote:
      TObound wrote:
      The global aviation community had a choice to implement worldwide carbon taxes. Instead, we decided to let airlines keep flying 20-30 year old planes while adding capacity. Now governments are making decisions for the sector.

      You can either stick your head in the sand or get out ahead of an issue. The denialism seen on this thread is why it will only get worse.


      To be frank, you can still buy models produced 20-30 years ago, and yes, I'm referring to the A320 CEO.

      If the technology hasn't changed in 30 years, then what alternatives do the carriers have?


      Except that the technology has changed. With the NEO and the Max and the 220. The carbon tax makes the latest generation of aircraft far more attractive. No airline should be buying a CEO or NG today.

      Also, the carbon tax changes the business model. Maybe airlines drop frequencies slightly and go to larger aircraft, which incidentally also reduces infrastructure s pressures.

      And then as others have mentioned, there's the lack of investment in alternative fuels, because they thought burning Shell Jet A would be cheap forever.
       
      1989worstyear
      Posts: 887
      Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:46 pm

      TObound wrote:
      1989worstyear wrote:
      TObound wrote:
      The global aviation community had a choice to implement worldwide carbon taxes. Instead, we decided to let airlines keep flying 20-30 year old planes while adding capacity. Now governments are making decisions for the sector.

      You can either stick your head in the sand or get out ahead of an issue. The denialism seen on this thread is why it will only get worse.


      To be frank, you can still buy models produced 20-30 years ago, and yes, I'm referring to the A320 CEO.

      If the technology hasn't changed in 30 years, then what alternatives do the carriers have?


      Except that the technology has changed. With the NEO and the Max and the 220. The carbon tax makes the latest generation of aircraft far more attractive. No airline should be buying a CEO or NG today.

      Also, the carbon tax changes the business model. Maybe airlines drop frequencies slightly and go to larger aircraft, which incidentally also reduces infrastructure s pressures.

      And then as others have mentioned, there's the lack of investment in alternative fuels, because they thought burning Shell Jet A would be cheap forever.


      I would definitely agree engines have improved, but the progress has only been until fairly recently. It took about 27 years (87-14) to for the A320 to finally ditch the old CFM's and V2500's, and you still have LH ordering CEO's.

      Quite a slow pace given what's at stake...
      Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
       
      User avatar
      Aesma
      Posts: 13387
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      Re: Switzerland to follow suit with Eco-Tax

      Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:45 pm

      Don't believe your country will be exempted from this. Young people now will be in power one day, and they won't pay any attention to oil lobbyists.

      I also expect carbon taxes at EU borders in less than 10 years, forcing China and others to reduce their emissions if they weren't doing it already, so that their exports can stay competitive.

      The US is the wild card, we'll know more next year, if 4 years of Trump gives us a green democrat ready to tackle issues, it might have been worth it.
      New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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