bgm
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America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:47 am

OK, so Americans have an inflated view of their country’s greatness. What’s the harm?

One danger is that this myopic belief makes it harder to adopt other countries’ successful policies that could help fix some of the problems that statistics show America faces. The management scholars David Antons and Frank Piller, for instance, argue that organizations may reject a good idea that comes from outside the organization because it’s “not invented here” and adopting it may challenge the organization’s self-image.

That might explain one reason why the United States proves so resistant to learning from other countries. Using terms that officials since have echoed repeatedly, then-U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright described the United States and its role by saying, “We are America. We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall, and we see further than other countries into the future.

The statistics, of course, suggest that there’s much the tall-standing, further-seeing nation could learn from others. And at times Americans do make these comparisons. As R. Daniel Kelemen, a Rutgers University professor of political science and law, put it in an interview, two major debates in the United States routinely employ international comparisons of policy: health care and gun control.

But these comparisons often get sidetracked by Americans’ domestic divisions, Kelemen observed. “For conservatives, the success of social democratic countries and their political-economic model is profoundly threatening to the core of their ideology,” he said, which helps explain why they are unwilling to learn from those models.

Even on the left, where “the discussion is a bit more informed,” Kelemen said, “there is a bit of a tendency to have rose-tinted glasses,” with left-leaning Americans harboring “a tendency or desire to view some of these countries as kind of social democratic utopias—‘If only we could be like Sweden!’”—while ignoring “the problematic sides of these models.”

Wholehearted rejection on the right and cherry-picking on the left may explain why international comparisons have had so little influence in shifting on those two hot-button issues—in addition, of course, to the major obstacles any policy changes in those domains would face. Still, Kelemen, who teaches a course on what Americans can learn from other countries’ public policies, thinks that there is immense benefit in learning from other countries.”


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/15/am ... e-mediocre

This is an interesting article. The world has benefited a lot from the many things from the US. Not just products, or inventions, but also ideas and policies. It seems that the reverse is less so. We can all learn from each other.
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Aaron747
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 am

Absolutely true. As a general rule, only Americans who are experts in a particular controversial field, or who have extensively traveled/done business or lived overseas can recognize the successes in other systems and their benefits. Most Americans, unless they work with or lived amongst people from other countries, don't even have friends who are non-Americans, so exposure to ideas is also sorely limited. I certainly didn't recognize the extent of the fishbowl lens mentality until living overseas.
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extender
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 am

Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.
 
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777222LR
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:56 am

extender wrote:
Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.



Hardly...they just make you realize that other people exist, and are equally as important. While some of us understand this, others view it as a threat. It's a threat to the 'me, me, me,' ideology. You can be a globalist and a liberal and still have compassionate capitalistic values.

In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill." It's true, we helped win the war. Pulling through an era where so much was lost (though, more was lost by Europe than we could ever imagine), and emerging as victors, sent a strong wave of nationalism through the US. We conquered the world. What is problematic with that is that we began to view it as only us winning the war, saving the Europeans, and began to view them somehow as helpless, needing us...and that sentiment carries through, even to today. 9/11 exacerbated that sentiment almost 60 years later. 9/11 also introduced a whole host of new problems with nationalism, while reviving old problems with nationalism and race.

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.

The good news is, younger generations are globalists. They are liberals. Why? Technology has connected them with the world. They are not closed off, anymore. And with that technology, the population is seeing the faults of the US, and realizing we are part of something much greater than ourselves.
 
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DL717
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:01 pm

777222LR wrote:
extender wrote:
Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.



Hardly...they just make you realize that other people exist, and are equally as important. While some of us understand this, others view it as a threat. It's a threat to the 'me, me, me,' ideology. You can be a globalist and a liberal and still have compassionate capitalistic values.

In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill." It's true, we helped win the war. Pulling through an era where so much was lost (though, more was lost by Europe than we could ever imagine), and emerging as victors, sent a strong wave of nationalism through the US. We conquered the world. What is problematic with that is that we began to view it as only us winning the war, saving the Europeans, and began to view them somehow as helpless, needing us...and that sentiment carries through, even to today. 9/11 exacerbated that sentiment almost 60 years later. 9/11 also introduced a whole host of new problems with nationalism, while reviving old problems with nationalism and race.

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.

The good news is, younger generations are globalists. They are liberals. Why? Technology has connected them with the world. They are not closed off, anymore. And with that technology, the population is seeing the faults of the US, and realizing we are part of something much greater than ourselves.


Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:01 pm

Call me when they put a man on the moon.
 
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777222LR
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:07 pm

DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
extender wrote:
Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.



Hardly...they just make you realize that other people exist, and are equally as important. While some of us understand this, others view it as a threat. It's a threat to the 'me, me, me,' ideology. You can be a globalist and a liberal and still have compassionate capitalistic values.

In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill." It's true, we helped win the war. Pulling through an era where so much was lost (though, more was lost by Europe than we could ever imagine), and emerging as victors, sent a strong wave of nationalism through the US. We conquered the world. What is problematic with that is that we began to view it as only us winning the war, saving the Europeans, and began to view them somehow as helpless, needing us...and that sentiment carries through, even to today. 9/11 exacerbated that sentiment almost 60 years later. 9/11 also introduced a whole host of new problems with nationalism, while reviving old problems with nationalism and race.

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.

The good news is, younger generations are globalists. They are liberals. Why? Technology has connected them with the world. They are not closed off, anymore. And with that technology, the population is seeing the faults of the US, and realizing we are part of something much greater than ourselves.


Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.

We have not done everything perfectly. To not acknowledge that, is to not acknowledge the truth. If anything, my education has made me a better employee, able to understand the dynamics of social interaction on a macro and micro level, so that I can be better at my job, make my company better, and do you know what all of that trickles down/up to? Making my country stronger.
 
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DL717
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:10 pm

777222LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:


Hardly...they just make you realize that other people exist, and are equally as important. While some of us understand this, others view it as a threat. It's a threat to the 'me, me, me,' ideology. You can be a globalist and a liberal and still have compassionate capitalistic values.

In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill." It's true, we helped win the war. Pulling through an era where so much was lost (though, more was lost by Europe than we could ever imagine), and emerging as victors, sent a strong wave of nationalism through the US. We conquered the world. What is problematic with that is that we began to view it as only us winning the war, saving the Europeans, and began to view them somehow as helpless, needing us...and that sentiment carries through, even to today. 9/11 exacerbated that sentiment almost 60 years later. 9/11 also introduced a whole host of new problems with nationalism, while reviving old problems with nationalism and race.

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.

The good news is, younger generations are globalists. They are liberals. Why? Technology has connected them with the world. They are not closed off, anymore. And with that technology, the population is seeing the faults of the US, and realizing we are part of something much greater than ourselves.


Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.

We have not done everything perfectly. To not acknowledge that, is to not acknowledge the truth. If anything, my education has made me a better employee, able to understand the dynamics of social interaction on a macro and micro level, so that I can be better at my job, make my company better, and do you know what all of that trickles down/up to? Making my country stronger.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:17 pm

extender wrote:
Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.


The US, Japan, Germany, Dutch etc invented globalism post-Marshall plan, and the middle class became successful on the backs of it. Ever heard of multinationals like Coca-Cola, Toyota, Siemens, Shell, Citibank, P&G, Eli Lilly? FFS, this 'globalism' thing drives me nuts - you guys decry it, when it's the very foundation of American corporate manifest destiny - spreading Western products, values, and consumerism to every corner of the globe. A staggering contradiction in terms.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:31 pm

DL717 wrote:
Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.



If peace an love are antithetical to America...then what is your vision? Just curious...
 
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:50 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
777222LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.



If peace an love are antithetical to America...then what is your vision? Just curious...


Something abjectly unchristian, amoral, and ultimately unamerican.
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bgm
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:13 pm

DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.

We have not done everything perfectly. To not acknowledge that, is to not acknowledge the truth. If anything, my education has made me a better employee, able to understand the dynamics of social interaction on a macro and micro level, so that I can be better at my job, make my company better, and do you know what all of that trickles down/up to? Making my country stronger.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Why are you unable to think outside such a binary perspective? One can still love their country and also be critical of it. I'd rather have peace and love, over war and hate.

The downfall of America is falsely believing you're the best in the world when that is clearly not the case. Admitting faults and working to fix them will only make any country better. Too bad you can't see that.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:23 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.

Thanks to german tech/engineering... :lol:
 
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:35 pm

DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill....

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws.


Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Kids today are exposed to more anti-Americanism in class than someone who was raised by parents who grew up in the 1940s in small town Oklahoma.
 
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:40 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Call me when you build that supersonic passenger jet.
Call me when you finally have universal healthcare.
Call me when you finally stop having daily mass shootings.
Call me when you don't incarcerate 5% of your population in for-profit prisons.
Call me when your cops quit shooting black men for no reason.
Call me when your government quits putting children in cages.

... etc etc...
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:40 pm

Americans have an inflated view of their country because they're taught that any criticism, anything less than "we're #1", is synonymous with treason.

While some are willing to take on the label for the sake of calling a spade a spade, one party in particular has taken issue with pointing out even the tiniest of flaws by urging you to leave the country (despite the fact that its current leader spent pre-November 2016 criticizing the country) and so its followers are reluctant to adopt the label.

This is one of the times I'm glad I was born outside the influence of the country. We were never discouraged from pointing out flaws in both the territory and the country itself, so long as we did it in a constructive manner.
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bgm
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:42 pm

afcjets wrote:
DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
In the US, particularly those of us who were raised by parents who's generation was close to those who fought in WWII, were raised to believe we are the "city on a hill....

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws.


Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Kids today are exposed to more anti-Americanism in class than someone who was raised by parents who grew up in the 1940s in small town Oklahoma.


You're confusing criticism with anti-Americanism. You could argue that being critical of your own country is actually quite patriotic. Perhaps it was your education that was substandard, not theirs? Wrapping yourself in flag-waving circle-jerk nationalism is hardly a healthy mentality to have...
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afcjets
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:44 pm

bgm wrote:
The downfall of America is falsely believing you're the best in the world when that is clearly not the case.


The downfall of America will be too many Americans believing the opposite.

Someone will always be the world's number one superpower. Why so many Europeans and Americans want to give that status to Russia or China is beyond me.

"American exceptionalism is often mis-defined and misunderstood.. Any time you use a phrase like "American exceptionalism," some will have a knee-jerk reaction as though you're bragging. "Oh, you Americans think you're better than anybody, huh? Well, screw you!" That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

We in America don't often stop, if ever, to think about this because we've never experienced anything other than America. But the history of humanity is primarily a history of poverty, as opposed to prosperity. It's a history of tyranny, dictatorships, suffering, bondage. I'm not making this up. I mean, that is the way in which most people who have lived on earth since the beginning of time have not experienced the life we as Americans take for granted.

We're the only country that has a charter indicating and enshrining that the very existence of citizens and human beings is in a state of God-created freedom. That charter, that Constitution was written by brilliant people whose primary objective was to keep it that way. They sought to keep it that way -- the focus on individual liberty and prosperity and freedom, pursuit of happiness -- by limiting the role of government in day-to-day existence.

The Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, specifically lay out what government cannot do. The Constitution does not say what government can do. It does not empower government in certain ways over people. The Constitution reserves the premise of individual liberty and freedom for the people and gives the people the freedom and the opportunity to choose those who will govern them or lead them or what have you.

Most of the people in the world have never gotten close to being able to live under such circumstances. In virtually all other countries in the world, the governments are the focus, and everything revolves around government. Now, we're trending that way. Don't... I'm talking about our founding, and this is what's so crucial is to maintain that. Our founding's under attack, our existence as a free nation is under attack, most seriously from internal forces now.

The only thing that saves us, the only thing that has saved us over generations is education, a proper education of the Constitution, of our founding, of our country. Why. Why it was founded the way it is. How did the United States come to be? What did it take for the United States to come to be? None of that's taught anymore. Instead, America is taught as inherently racist and unjust and immoral. You know the drill.

https://news.iheart.com/featured/rush-l ... the-world/
 
bgm
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:57 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
The downfall of America is falsely believing you're the best in the world when that is clearly not the case.


The downfall of America will be too many Americans believing the opposite.

Someone will always be the world's number one superpower. Why so many Europeans and Americans want to give that status to Russia or China is beyond me.

"American exceptionalism is often mis-defined and misunderstood.. Any time you use a phrase like "American exceptionalism," some will have a knee-jerk reaction as though you're bragging. "Oh, you Americans think you're better than anybody, huh? Well, screw you!" That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

We in America don't often stop, if ever, to think about this because we've never experienced anything other than America. But the history of humanity is primarily a history of poverty, as opposed to prosperity. It's a history of tyranny, dictatorships, suffering, bondage. I'm not making this up. I mean, that is the way in which most people who have lived on earth since the beginning of time have not experienced the life we as Americans take for granted.

We're the only country that has a charter indicating and enshrining that the very existence of citizens and human beings is in a state of God-created freedom. That charter, that Constitution was written by brilliant people whose primary objective was to keep it that way. They sought to keep it that way -- the focus on individual liberty and prosperity and freedom, pursuit of happiness -- by limiting the role of government in day-to-day existence.

The Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, specifically lay out what government cannot do. The Constitution does not say what government can do. It does not empower government in certain ways over people. The Constitution reserves the premise of individual liberty and freedom for the people and gives the people the freedom and the opportunity to choose those who will govern them or lead them or what have you.

Most of the people in the world have never gotten close to being able to live under such circumstances. In virtually all other countries in the world, the governments are the focus, and everything revolves around government. Now, we're trending that way. Don't... I'm talking about our founding, and this is what's so crucial is to maintain that. Our founding's under attack, our existence as a free nation is under attack, most seriously from internal forces now.

The only thing that saves us, the only thing that has saved us over generations is education, a proper education of the Constitution, of our founding, of our country. Why. Why it was founded the way it is. How did the United States come to be? What did it take for the United States to come to be? None of that's taught anymore. Instead, America is taught as inherently racist and unjust and immoral. You know the drill.

https://news.iheart.com/featured/rush-l ... the-world/


You've stooped so low as to quote Rush Limbaugh? :crazy:

Someone will always be the world's number one superpower. Why so many Europeans and Americans want to give that status to Russia or China is beyond me.


Being the best, and falsely believing you're the best are 2 very different things. Peddling a false narrative that you're the best at everything is inherently dishonest.
Last edited by bgm on Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:58 pm

DL717 wrote:

Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.


No , Kids do not learn that in school. They learn it from irrationally ignorant folks such as yourself. Without schools our kids would not be prepared to do the important jobs of the future that will not be replaced by robots and automatic flying/driving.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:03 pm

afcjets wrote:


Really? you are going to quote a lying drug addict?

Rush forgets America was founded on the freedom of Religion from the government. Any Religion, and that some people would reject religion. Far too many learned what state religions had wrong when they left their previous countries.

The US has excelled by examining and correcting it's self faults over the last 243 years. This process will always go on. Trump and his set of sycophants somehow believe America was Greater at some point in the past, when none of them had jobs or probably even existed, and that just is not true.

The power is in the people, and always has been. Not some piece of paper.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:27 pm

DL717 wrote:
Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.

I would say, if anything, it teaches them to continue innovating. Case studies show that people who get complacent fall behind.

Saying we're so star spangled banner awesome that no one matched us may have been true in the late 80s and early 90s when the Soviet Union (the chief rival in the world) collapsed and no one was left to fill the void. Almost 30 years later, it's a new era with China looming on the horizon as the next potential superpower. Telling people that we're #1 and dismiss the potential threats posed by China, Russia, and India while at the same time neglecting our own citizens is what will likely bring the country down.

What I find ironic about conservatives is that they want to be #1 just on a few categories. For others, they don't care that we rank in the mid or bottom percentile.

We may have the largest economy in the world, but what good is it if on a per capita basis, other countries blow us out of the water? What good is being #1 when, among OECD countries, we rank first in terms of private healthcare spending (meaning it's the individual's share)?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:46 pm

DL717 wrote:
Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Isn't MAGA the embodiment of an utopia ? Good ol' times seen through rose tinted glasses.
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:29 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Image
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9534
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:35 pm

afcjets wrote:
American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.


Completely ridiculous. More of the crazy fantasy where the US is the only place people enjoy western/contemporary freedoms. The Cato/Fraser Institutes score the Human Freedom Index annually, and the US doesn't come close to #1.

The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and Denmark (tied in 6th place), Ireland and the United Kingdom (tied in 8th place), and Finland, Norway, and Taiwan (tied in 10th place). Selected countries rank as follows: Germany (13), the United States and Sweden (17), Republic of Korea (27), Japan (31), France and Chile (32)

The scores are based on the following criteria:

Rule of Law
Security and Safety
Movement
Religion
Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
Expression and Information
Identity and Relationships
Size of Government
Legal System and Property Rights
Access to Sound Money
Freedom to Trade Internationally
Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business

The score for Hong Kong will likely change in the 2020 report, but it bears repeating that the US isn't close to tops.

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:03 pm

extender wrote:
Globalism and liberalism, contradict individualism.

if that is true, then why did the human rights revolution occurred
 
bgm
Topic Author
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.


Completely ridiculous. More of the crazy fantasy where the US is the only place people enjoy western/contemporary freedoms. The Cato/Fraser Institutes score the Human Freedom Index annually, and the US doesn't come close to #1.

The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and Denmark (tied in 6th place), Ireland and the United Kingdom (tied in 8th place), and Finland, Norway, and Taiwan (tied in 10th place). Selected countries rank as follows: Germany (13), the United States and Sweden (17), Republic of Korea (27), Japan (31), France and Chile (32)

The scores are based on the following criteria:

Rule of Law
Security and Safety
Movement
Religion
Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
Expression and Information
Identity and Relationships
Size of Government
Legal System and Property Rights
Access to Sound Money
Freedom to Trade Internationally
Regulation of Credit, Labor, and Business

The score for Hong Kong will likely change in the 2020 report, but it bears repeating that the US isn't close to tops.

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new


"Fake News!", will be the response from the usual suspects.

You know who else was brainwashed into thinking they were the best in the world? The Soviet Union, North Korea, and many other dictatorships. It's a way to stifle any criticism and keep people in check.
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petertenthije
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:05 pm

afcjets wrote:
That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

But by that definition the USA is no longer exceptional. The rest of the world, the western world anyway, has caught up with you.
Attamottamotta!
 
N1611B
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:15 pm

bgm wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Call me when you build that supersonic passenger jet.
Call me when you finally have universal healthcare.
Call me when you finally stop having daily mass shootings.
Call me when you don't incarcerate 5% of your population in for-profit prisons.
Call me when your cops quit shooting black men for no reason.
Call me when your government quits putting children in cages.

... etc etc...


Given the amount of technological innovation that the United States has been responsible for since WWII, I can promise you that it would take us no time at all to build a supersonic passenger jet. The reason we haven't done so yet is because we have chosen not to, due to a variety of factors. The country that put people on the moon, that created and optimized stealth fighters, that has produced most of the airliners used to transport people around the world, etc, would not struggle with creating a supersonic airliner.

There are pros and cons to universal healthcare. The healthcare system in the United States is indeed broken, but universal healthcare is not the fix, IMO.

We don't have daily mass shootings, at least not according to the most commonly used definitions of mass shootings that exclude gang violence.

I agree with you that we incarcerate far too many people for nonviolent crimes, but no one is perfect. Norway is due to let a man who murdered dozens of children out of prison because they don't believe in life sentances, for example.

Our police officers don't routinely shoot black men for no reason. Around 1,000 people are killed each year by the police in the United States, the overwhelming majority of whom are armed and who are threatening officers or others. The police have a tough and dangerous job and 99.9% of them do it well.
 
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seb146
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:42 pm

DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Younger people believe that way after years of teachers and professors telling them America = bad, everyone else = good. They’ve been conditioned to be weak. It will be the downfall of America. The education system = failure.



That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.

We have not done everything perfectly. To not acknowledge that, is to not acknowledge the truth. If anything, my education has made me a better employee, able to understand the dynamics of social interaction on a macro and micro level, so that I can be better at my job, make my company better, and do you know what all of that trickles down/up to? Making my country stronger.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Classic right wing comeback: what you experience is not what you really experienced.

I grew up in hyper Republican eastern Oregon. The only thing that matters there is guns, God, and football. I grew up gay during the AIDS crisis and hears those around me saying some of the most cruel and hateful things about LGBTQ people. In history class, we were taught that yes, there was slavery but we beat the Nazis in Europe and, yes there was segregation but we beat the Japanese and yes children had to work in coal mines but Blacks are free. It was bizarre compared to what I learned when I left and I made the effort to learn about other cultures and religions and people. I have found that those who are open to other cultures and make an effort to listen and learn are far more accepting than those who seal themselves off.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:45 pm

petertenthije wrote:
afcjets wrote:
That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

But by that definition the USA is no longer exceptional. The rest of the world, the western world anyway, has caught up with you.

I’ve traveled all over the world many times and in many cases I agree. The world has caught up with the US. And in many cases they have exceeded us. This is great. Paul Kennedy describes this predictable situation very well in his book - The Rise and Fall of Great Powers.

It’s time for the US to shed is global policing role and focus on taking care of its own population. Because we can no longer provide it for the entire planet. As Kennedy explains, the US needs to manage it’s decline in comparison to other powers so that the impacts are managed and minimized.

Mike Drop
 
afcjets
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm

petertenthije wrote:
afcjets wrote:
That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

But by that definition the USA is no longer exceptional. The rest of the world, the western world anyway, has caught up with you.


Exactly! The world is a better place from the government our founding fathers created over 250 years ago as American exceptionalism has been exported. More of the world is free today but still most of the 7 to 8 billion people on this planet still live in tyranny, bondage, and poverty.
 
mham001
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Just another bitter Brit.

But no doubt globalist liberalism has led us to mediocrity, when the US President who oversees the greatest prolonged technology theft in history makes a world tour apologizing, people tend to lose that winning attitude. Hence Make America Great AGAIN. See, even Trump acknowledges it.

Of course though, bitter Brits have been expounding on this theme for 250 years. Sour grapes.
 
MaverickM11
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:29 pm

One thing Trump is proving to the world, and more importantly to Americans, that the USA is truly no more exceptional than any banana republic.

afcjets wrote:

Kids today are exposed to more anti-Americanism in class than someone who was raised by parents who grew up in the 1940s in small town Oklahoma.

Oh is that what we're calling "history" now?

"The United States ranks 45th in infant mortality, 46th in maternal mortality, and 36th in life expectancy."
Ah the pro life knuckle draggers working their magique. We need more prayers stat!
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:48 pm

American influence and power post WWII was earned and paid for. Free markets were established (with the US being more open than trading partners for the most part), defense was subsidized by the US throughout the world. Treaties were often weighted in favor of allies. We produced an astounding portion of the entire world's manufactured good and food.

US education system, particularly higher education, was heavily funded (no longer true). Research in science and technology was heavily subsidized (Republican don't believe in basic science research any more - they once were very much pro) . Benefits of all of this was basically shared throughout the world. Foreign aid was funded at a larger percent of the GNP than now (although it was never all that high).

We are now challenged from both Asia and Europe. While we have not 'lost' we are obviously losing ground.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
2122M
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:13 pm

LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Pretty narrow view of what constitutes a great country...
 
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seb146
Posts: 20480
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:26 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
afcjets wrote:
That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.

But by that definition the USA is no longer exceptional. The rest of the world, the western world anyway, has caught up with you.

I’ve traveled all over the world many times and in many cases I agree. The world has caught up with the US. And in many cases they have exceeded us. This is great. Paul Kennedy describes this predictable situation very well in his book - The Rise and Fall of Great Powers.

It’s time for the US to shed is global policing role and focus on taking care of its own population. Because we can no longer provide it for the entire planet. As Kennedy explains, the US needs to manage it’s decline in comparison to other powers so that the impacts are managed and minimized.

Mike Drop


Democrats have wanted that for a long time, Mike. Democrats have been trying to get affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education, a living wage to all Americans. But, Republicans keep blocking all that because "Americans have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and not rely on government for everything!"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bgm
Topic Author
Posts: 2136
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:30 pm

2122M wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Pretty narrow view of what constitutes a great country...


Narrow view from a narrow mind. Go figure.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
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777222LR
Posts: 337
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
777222LR wrote:


That's a lie. Throughout my entire education, lower, middle, high school, college, I was never told America was bad. What I was told was that historically, not everything we've done has been good, and here's what we can do to fix it. What else did my education expose me to? People from other countries, religions, ideologies. It forced me to not live in my small town Oklahoma bubble, where I was raised.

We have not done everything perfectly. To not acknowledge that, is to not acknowledge the truth. If anything, my education has made me a better employee, able to understand the dynamics of social interaction on a macro and micro level, so that I can be better at my job, make my company better, and do you know what all of that trickles down/up to? Making my country stronger.


Actually, you were taught just that. You just didn’t realize it. You were educated by the “peace and love” generation that despised America who still live in a wanna be utopian society of liberal talking heads.


Classic right wing comeback: what you experience is not what you really experienced.

I grew up in hyper Republican eastern Oregon. The only thing that matters there is guns, God, and football. I grew up gay during the AIDS crisis and hears those around me saying some of the most cruel and hateful things about LGBTQ people. In history class, we were taught that yes, there was slavery but we beat the Nazis in Europe and, yes there was segregation but we beat the Japanese and yes children had to work in coal mines but Blacks are free. It was bizarre compared to what I learned when I left and I made the effort to learn about other cultures and religions and people. I have found that those who are open to other cultures and make an effort to listen and learn are far more accepting than those who seal themselves off.



I was wanting to reply to him, but was sitting in the line at Starbucks in my car and needed to get to work. I grew up as a gay man in Oklahoma, where it's God, Guns, and Football as well. Not only is racism still widely acceptable (though spoken in whisper), homophobia is still quite rampant, even in a more liberal city like Oklahoma City, where I now live. To not acknowledge our past and current issues, doesn't make the issue go away. We need to work on those things, and to work on them, we have to acknowledge where they came from and where they still happen to linger. Trump's dog whistles to racism, and his blatant anti-LGBT agenda, is just ramping all of those sentiments back up. He will, however, tell you he's not doing that, while he does exactly that. Some of us can see it, some of us turn a blind eye, and some are just racists and homophobes.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17507
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:56 pm

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
But by that definition the USA is no longer exceptional. The rest of the world, the western world anyway, has caught up with you.

I’ve traveled all over the world many times and in many cases I agree. The world has caught up with the US. And in many cases they have exceeded us. This is great. Paul Kennedy describes this predictable situation very well in his book - The Rise and Fall of Great Powers.

It’s time for the US to shed is global policing role and focus on taking care of its own population. Because we can no longer provide it for the entire planet. As Kennedy explains, the US needs to manage it’s decline in comparison to other powers so that the impacts are managed and minimized.

Mike Drop


Democrats have wanted that for a long time, Mike. Democrats have been trying to get affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education, a living wage to all Americans. But, Republicans keep blocking all that because "Americans have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and not rely on government for everything!"

I just can't imagine the mental gymnastics required to convince yourself that the republicans have any interest in "taking care of its own population", from a guy that had to be sued thousands of time to take care of his own employees. Unless abject poverty, outsourced jobs, opiate epidemic, zero healthcare, and ramped up bigotry is "taking care of" anything...in which case...congrats! Republicans have done it again.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2774
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
It’s time for the US to shed is global policing role and focus on taking care of its own population. Because we can no longer provide it for the entire planet. As Kennedy explains, the US needs to manage it’s decline in comparison to other powers so that the impacts are managed and minimized.


There is a delicate balance between being the world police and just "helping its own people". One of the reason that make US the power it is today is precisely its global influence via the might of its military (i.e. "peace through strength"). Going full isolationism actually make US "less great", especially if someone else (i.e. China) steps up and use the "mightiness" of its force to rule through strength. Plus countries like Russia and China ain't going to give up their global ambition themselves, either.

Just let our allies (i.e. EU or Japan/South Korea) step up themselves, you say? Well, if anything those countries are the front line where US can hide behind. Lose that buffer, and US is now directly under threat. Do you want battles in somebody else's home, or your own house?

Plus we can be BOTH global police AND take care of our own.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12680
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:52 pm

777222LR wrote:

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.



This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America the Mediocre

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:43 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
777222LR wrote:

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.



This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


There would be less to point out if people were sticking to facts and not trumpeting fantasies like ‘the most freedom’. Arguably due to its size and economic footprint, there is indeed more overall opportunity in the US than anywhere. But as Cato’s freedom index illustrates, other places are actually more free currently - especially on the merits of their criteria.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
DTVG
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:14 am

NIKV69 wrote:
777222LR wrote:

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.



This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


This is outright wrong. I live in a European country with (sometimes substantially) lower taxes than the US, open borders yes, but the police actually enforces immigration laws, so that I end up meeting more “bad hombres” in the US than in my country. Finally I can just as well buy guns that Americans can (I was just shooting a cheap Chinese AK47, man, just think about how bad ass Rambo style I looked like!).
 
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seb146
Posts: 20480
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:17 am

NIKV69 wrote:
777222LR wrote:

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.



This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


The higher tax rates pay for things like affordable health care, living wages, affordable education, public works projects like roads, bridges, airports, seaports, etc.

The United States claims to have the most opportunity but only those with money can afford it. The United States claims to have the most freedom but American citizens are not able to vote or gather peacefully or love who they want.

Maybe if we did a few more European things, we can be a nation other countries want to emulate.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12195
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:14 am

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
The downfall of America is falsely believing you're the best in the world when that is clearly not the case.


The downfall of America will be too many Americans believing the opposite.

Someone will always be the world's number one superpower. Why so many Europeans and Americans want to give that status to Russia or China is beyond me.

"American exceptionalism is often mis-defined and misunderstood.. Any time you use a phrase like "American exceptionalism," some will have a knee-jerk reaction as though you're bragging. "Oh, you Americans think you're better than anybody, huh? Well, screw you!" That's not at all what it means. American exceptionalism is simply an acknowledgment that America is the exception in a world of tyranny, a world of poverty, a world of bondage.



That's quite laughable, the American govt is a global tyrant, its either the American way or you're against us, poverty is increasing in leaps and bounds in the US, over 44m people live below the poverty line, 1 in 5 children are born into poverty, the rich get richer the middle class move down and the poor are forgotten about, as for bondage well you do have the worlds largest prision population and if you think about it what you're doing to countries you've embargoed is similar to bondage.
 
extender
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:20 am

That is quite laughable. Global tyrant? Very laughable. Maybe if the special interests were eliminated, and those elected actually did their jobs instead of campaigning for re-election, we could improve things greatly.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12195
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:25 am

N1611B wrote:
bgm wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Call me when you build that supersonic passenger jet.
Call me when you finally have universal healthcare.
Call me when you finally stop having daily mass shootings.
Call me when you don't incarcerate 5% of your population in for-profit prisons.
Call me when your cops quit shooting black men for no reason.
Call me when your government quits putting children in cages.

... etc etc...


Given the amount of technological innovation that the United States has been responsible for since WWII, I can promise you that it would take us no time at all to build a supersonic passenger jet. The reason we haven't done so yet is because we have chosen not to, due to a variety of factors. The country that put people on the moon, that created and optimized stealth fighters, that has produced most of the airliners used to transport people around the world, etc, would not struggle with creating a supersonic airliner.

There are pros and cons to universal healthcare. The healthcare system in the United States is indeed broken, but universal healthcare is not the fix, IMO.

We don't have daily mass shootings, at least not according to the most commonly used definitions of mass shootings that exclude gang violence.

I agree with you that we incarcerate far too many people for nonviolent crimes, but no one is perfect. Norway is due to let a man who murdered dozens of children out of prison because they don't believe in life sentances, for example.

Our police officers don't routinely shoot black men for no reason. Around 1,000 people are killed each year by the police in the United States, the overwhelming majority of whom are armed and who are threatening officers or others. The police have a tough and dangerous job and 99.9% of them do it well.


You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that Norway is going to let Anders out of prison, he got 21 years, but they don't have to let him out once his time is up, he can be kept in prison for life if the authourities decide he's still a threat to society.

US police officers shoot more people annually than all your pier nations combined and then some. How come other countries can deal with armed offenders without killing them and the US can't? NZ police officers were able to subdue Branton Tarrent without resorting to guns.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12195
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:29 am

2122M wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Pretty narrow view of what constitutes a great country...


American money and captured German engineers.
 
extender
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:48 am

We still did it. And we got swept-wing fighters in the deal.

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