SoCalPilot
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:51 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
777222LR wrote:

Our nationalism gets in the way of us seeing our flaws. Because we view ourselves as "the city on a hill" it becomes difficult for us to correct our flaws, because if we are truly a "city on a hill" we shouldn't have any flaws, and would never need to be corrected by the Europeans/Asians who we saved.



This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


The higher tax rates pay for things like affordable health care, living wages, affordable education, public works projects like roads, bridges, airports, seaports, etc.

The United States claims to have the most opportunity but only those with money can afford it. The United States claims to have the most freedom but American citizens are not able to vote or gather peacefully or love who they want.

Maybe if we did a few more European things, we can be a nation other countries want to emulate.

I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:48 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


The higher tax rates pay for things like affordable health care, living wages, affordable education, public works projects like roads, bridges, airports, seaports, etc.

The United States claims to have the most opportunity but only those with money can afford it. The United States claims to have the most freedom but American citizens are not able to vote or gather peacefully or love who they want.

Maybe if we did a few more European things, we can be a nation other countries want to emulate.

I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?


Because people don’t know anything else - that’s precisely what the OP article talks about - the US fishbowl effect. I know a number of HNW individuals however who are well-traveled and split time between the US and various other places because they don’t like the hassle and conditions of residing in the US full-time. I also have a relative who retired from a federal foreign service career and settled in Kenya.

Also it’s quite difficult for US citizens to attain residency in many attractive EU and Austral-asian locations without special skills like IT, aviation, or civil engineering.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:21 am

I've been all around the world, and be it the mess that it is, there is no place like home.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:49 am

extender wrote:
I've been all around the world, and be it the mess that it is, there is no place like home.


I somewhat agree, being from a very nice part of California, but fortunately there are many places in the world with similar scenery and Mediterranean climate. Parts of Australia, NZ, South Africa, Italy, southern France, Portugal etc all feel like home.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N1611B
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:53 am

Kiwirob wrote:
N1611B wrote:
bgm wrote:

Call me when you build that supersonic passenger jet.
Call me when you finally have universal healthcare.
Call me when you finally stop having daily mass shootings.
Call me when you don't incarcerate 5% of your population in for-profit prisons.
Call me when your cops quit shooting black men for no reason.
Call me when your government quits putting children in cages.

... etc etc...


Given the amount of technological innovation that the United States has been responsible for since WWII, I can promise you that it would take us no time at all to build a supersonic passenger jet. The reason we haven't done so yet is because we have chosen not to, due to a variety of factors. The country that put people on the moon, that created and optimized stealth fighters, that has produced most of the airliners used to transport people around the world, etc, would not struggle with creating a supersonic airliner.

There are pros and cons to universal healthcare. The healthcare system in the United States is indeed broken, but universal healthcare is not the fix, IMO.

We don't have daily mass shootings, at least not according to the most commonly used definitions of mass shootings that exclude gang violence.

I agree with you that we incarcerate far too many people for nonviolent crimes, but no one is perfect. Norway is due to let a man who murdered dozens of children out of prison because they don't believe in life sentances, for example.

Our police officers don't routinely shoot black men for no reason. Around 1,000 people are killed each year by the police in the United States, the overwhelming majority of whom are armed and who are threatening officers or others. The police have a tough and dangerous job and 99.9% of them do it well.


You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.

I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion that Norway is going to let Anders out of prison, he got 21 years, but they don't have to let him out once his time is up, he can be kept in prison for life if the authourities decide he's still a threat to society.

US police officers shoot more people annually than all your pier nations combined and then some. How come other countries can deal with armed offenders without killing them and the US can't? NZ police officers were able to subdue Branton Tarrent without resorting to guns.


It really depends on your definition of "mass shooting". Most commonly accepted definitions exclude gang violence, for example.

You may be correct about Anders...I remember reading when he was sentenced that he would be released eventually, but haven't paid much attention to it since.

The US is a much more dangerous place to be a police officer than, say, New Zealand. Dozens of American cops are murdered in the line of duty each year, and an even greater number are shot but survive thanks to body armor, etc. You're really comparing apples to oranges.
 
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Aesma
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:50 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?


Money.

If you have a skill that can make you money, you will get even more money in the US. Sometimes 10 times more.

If you're average or below average, that's another story. You can get more money, but the stuff that used to be cheap in your home country are expensive in the US (healthcare for starters). Still, on the face of it, you can be convinced it's a good idea.

Now, it's not like migrating to the US is that easy, so people who do it are motivated, or already have money, or both.

An uncle of mine was convinced by his wife to try it out. Her brother was already living in the US. They did an entrepreneur visa (need to invest 500000$), opened a bakery, were successful enough. Their older kid however was bad at school, couldn't get to college, and ended up having to leave the country. Then my uncle couldn't adapt, his wife left him, and he came back too. Their younger kid has quit college to make money playing video games, he married his girlfriend to get residency.

Personally I think about it sometimes. I don't think my diploma is good enough to get me a visa, but I might be wrong. Healthcare would be less of a concern as I can always come back to France if I get cancer or something and am not covered in the US. I would make double the money, and the things I like are much cheaper (general aviation, sportscars...). Even though I disagree with many happenings in the US, if my life there can be nicer, why not ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
2122M
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:18 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

This is a common myth pushed by the far left. It's not true. We know we have flaws but we also know we have the most opportunity and freedom. Just because we don't turn ourselves into Europe and tax everyone at 70%, take everyone's guns and open our borders to everyone with no questions asked doesn't mean we need to correct our flaws. It means we love this country and what it affords us. You feel there is a better country out there that has more to offer you are more than free to explore moving there. Me? I am glad my father left Europe to come here. It doesn't make me a nationalist or a racist or any of these other things CNN calls people who feel the way I do. This thread is just another hate US thread which is prevalent here and it grows tiresome.


The higher tax rates pay for things like affordable health care, living wages, affordable education, public works projects like roads, bridges, airports, seaports, etc.

The United States claims to have the most opportunity but only those with money can afford it. The United States claims to have the most freedom but American citizens are not able to vote or gather peacefully or love who they want.

Maybe if we did a few more European things, we can be a nation other countries want to emulate.

I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?


"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"
 
MikeDrop
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:28 pm

2122M wrote:

"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c

“Chinese food, pizza, and chimachangas”
Mike Drop
 
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seb146
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:23 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
2122M wrote:

"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c

“Chinese food, pizza, and chimachangas”
Mike Drop


Immigrating to Europe is difficult. A lot of places make you learn a new language. The money looks like board game money. No McDondalds. No light beer. These are some of the reasons some Americans will not immigrate or even visit Europe.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:46 pm

2122M wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
seb146 wrote:

The higher tax rates pay for things like affordable health care, living wages, affordable education, public works projects like roads, bridges, airports, seaports, etc.

The United States claims to have the most opportunity but only those with money can afford it. The United States claims to have the most freedom but American citizens are not able to vote or gather peacefully or love who they want.

Maybe if we did a few more European things, we can be a nation other countries want to emulate.

I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?


"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"

All the Europeans I've known that moved here, even the conservative ones, kept one foot in Europe for healthcare. Wonder why.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
apodino
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
2122M wrote:

"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c

“Chinese food, pizza, and chimachangas”
Mike Drop


Immigrating to Europe is difficult. A lot of places make you learn a new language. The money looks like board game money. No McDondalds. No light beer. These are some of the reasons some Americans will not immigrate or even visit Europe.

Any other country has money that looks way better than ours. I don't know why we insist on a shade of green for money instead of different colors. McDonalds is very much present in Europe as are several known American brands. I don't get light beer at all, I might as well drink spring water. European beer is so good.

I love Europe...can you tell?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
2122M wrote:

"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c

“Chinese food, pizza, and chimachangas”
Mike Drop


Immigrating to Europe is difficult. A lot of places make you learn a new language. The money looks like board game money. No McDondalds. No light beer. These are some of the reasons some Americans will not immigrate or even visit Europe.


There’s plenty of McDonalds, Burger Kings, Dominos in Europe, we don’t have a lot of KFC, but the UK does. No real man drinks light beer but we have that shit as well.
 
BravoOne
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:55 pm

Redd wrote:
LittleSprocket wrote:
Call me when they put a man on the moon.


Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Image



Funny as had these men not come to America they would have wound up in some Soviet gulag. Don't see anyone in there that resembles Armstrong, Collins or Aldrin? Oh well don't let the facts get in the way of a inaccurate post.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
2122M wrote:

"Health care systems, giant water parks. The same reason anyone comes to America"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXdjrlnJ24c

“Chinese food, pizza, and chimachangas”
Mike Drop


Immigrating to Europe is difficult. A lot of places make you learn a new language. The money looks like board game money. No McDondalds. No light beer. These are some of the reasons some Americans will not immigrate or even visit Europe.


McDonalds, Burger King, chinese, Mexican, Italian food etc are very much present in Europe, as is light beer ( I don't know why you would drink light beer …. ). Generally European money and cards has for many years been far more advanced ( security wise ) than USD, however the US is slowly catching on. For the most part you would have to learn a new language if you want to work, yes.
 
NIKV69
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Re: America the Mediocre

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:


You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.



No we don't. This is just more spin and propaganda from the hate the USA crowd. Don't include shootings in crimes such as robbery etc in mass shootings. They are not the same.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: America the Mediocre

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:18 am

    Redd wrote:
    LittleSprocket wrote:
    Call me when they put a man on the moon.


    Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

    Image


    True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

    Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

    GF
     
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    seb146
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    Re: America the Mediocre

    Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:56 am

    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
      Redd wrote:
      LittleSprocket wrote:
      Call me when they put a man on the moon.


      Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

      Image


      True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

      Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

      GF


      United States was encouraging people to do things better and faster. Japan had great programmers and was doing a lot in the tech sector. Also, Europe was rebuilding after the war. They were still finding their way and dealing with the Soviet Union on their doorstep.
      You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
       
      Redd
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      Re: America the Mediocre

      Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:18 am

      GalaxyFlyer wrote:
        Redd wrote:
        LittleSprocket wrote:
        Call me when they put a man on the moon.


        Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

        Image


        True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

        Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

        GF



        That wasn't my point, little sprocket seems to think that America is the end all be all of everything and everywhere. Ignoring the fact that contributions to its success come from all over the world. Did America make the right environment for it? Of course, and it's commendable and very much so.
         
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        Aaron747
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        Re: America the Mediocre

        Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:27 am

        Redd wrote:
        GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          Redd wrote:

          Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

          Image


          True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

          Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

          GF



          That wasn't my point, little sprocket seems to think that America is the end all be all of everything and everywhere. Ignoring the fact that contributions to its success come from all over the world. Did America make the right environment for it? Of course, and it's commendable and very much so.


          And others here merrily ignore that freedom and high quality of life exist in plenty of other countries - in some cases in improved fashion and with better public safety due to a stronger social safety net.
          Last edited by Aaron747 on Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
          If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
           
          Redd
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:31 am

          Aaron747 wrote:

          And other here merrily ignore that freedom and high quality of life exist in plenty of other countries - in some cases in improved fashion and with better public safety due to a stronger social safety net.


          :checkmark: Exactly...
           
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          Super80Fan
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:38 am

          This country won't be "free" until we get rid of Blue ISIS.
          RIP McDonnell Douglas
          RIP US Airways
           
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          Aaron747
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:57 am

          Super80Fan wrote:
          This country won't be "free" until we get rid of Blue ISIS.


          Getting rid of people/ideas you dislike - how patently unAmerican. Noice.
          If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
           
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          Super80Fan
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:06 am

          Aaron747 wrote:
          Super80Fan wrote:
          This country won't be "free" until we get rid of Blue ISIS.


          Getting rid of people/ideas you dislike - how patently unAmerican. Noice.


          Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?
          RIP McDonnell Douglas
          RIP US Airways
           
          GDB
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:17 am

          N1611B wrote:
          bgm wrote:
          LittleSprocket wrote:
          Call me when they put a man on the moon.


          Call me when you build that supersonic passenger jet.
          Call me when you finally have universal healthcare.
          Call me when you finally stop having daily mass shootings.
          Call me when you don't incarcerate 5% of your population in for-profit prisons.
          Call me when your cops quit shooting black men for no reason.
          Call me when your government quits putting children in cages.

          ... etc etc...


          Given the amount of technological innovation that the United States has been responsible for since WWII, I can promise you that it would take us no time at all to build a supersonic passenger jet. The reason we haven't done so yet is because we have chosen not to, due to a variety of factors. The country that put people on the moon, that created and optimized stealth fighters, that has produced most of the airliners used to transport people around the world, etc, would not struggle with creating a supersonic airliner.

          There are pros and cons to universal healthcare. The healthcare system in the United States is indeed broken, but universal healthcare is not the fix, IMO.

          We don't have daily mass shootings, at least not according to the most commonly used definitions of mass shootings that exclude gang violence.

          I agree with you that we incarcerate far too many people for nonviolent crimes, but no one is perfect. Norway is due to let a man who murdered dozens of children out of prison because they don't believe in life sentances, for example.

          Our police officers don't routinely shoot black men for no reason. Around 1,000 people are killed each year by the police in the United States, the overwhelming majority of whom are armed and who are threatening officers or others. The police have a tough and dangerous job and 99.9% of them do it well.


          Erm...ever heard of the Boeing 2707? The US DID try to. As purely a response to the Anglo-French project. However they were wildly over-ambitious and as a result, before any metal was cut they had to re-design the thing.
          It had V-G wings and other over complex features for an airliner as the spec had to be bigger (got that right) and faster than Concorde. the latter would be issue.
          Version 2 got as far as a mock up (now a tailed delta) and some early production of parts before Congress pulled the plug in 1971. After the US had spent almost as much as the UK side did on Concorde.
          While it is true that enviromental concerns and a changed market would have limited the 2707 had version 2 been built, just like Concorde, the US most certainly did try.

          As to Little Sprocket's comment further up, as stated you had a lot of help from those Germans but Apollo was the greatest ever science/engineering and exploration project, I agree.
          But 50 years on, the US cannot even put it's own crews into low Earth orbit.
          Worth remembering that the US only embarked upon Apollo after the Russians (whose technical ability the US sneered at) put the first satellite up, the first probes to investigate the Moon, then the first human. That's why the US did it.

          When foreign car makers had the temerity to start making cars more reliable, better built, more economical (which became important in the 1970's), what was the response of US car workers? Smashing up foreign autos in some cases.
          An attitude now morphed into political thinking.

          But eventually some of their bosses started to learn from them.
          Even so, if you are an auto worker in the US now, which is more secure though? Putting together cars in a foreign owned plant or a US one? Who has been growing out of the two these past decades?
           
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          Dutchy
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:39 am

          LittleSprocket wrote:
          Call me when they put a man on the moon.


          A very good example of what the OP is talking about. American exceptionalism thinking will be America's downfall :roll:
          Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
           
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          Dutchy
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:45 am

          Super80Fan wrote:
          Aaron747 wrote:
          Super80Fan wrote:
          This country won't be "free" until we get rid of Blue ISIS.


          Getting rid of people/ideas you dislike - how patently unAmerican. Noice.


          Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?


          I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.
          Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
           
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          Dutchy
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:50 am

          GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

          GF


          You need to recognize that there are other countries and other countries that innovate. The rest of the world does recognize that America has some innovative sectors and is leading the world in some sectors. That is the whole point, learn from each other.
          Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
           
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          Aesma
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:06 am

          seb146 wrote:
          Immigrating to Europe is difficult. A lot of places make you learn a new language. The money looks like board game money. No McDondalds. No light beer. These are some of the reasons some Americans will not immigrate or even visit Europe.


          Yes I didn't answer the opposite point. I don't even know the immigration numbers. I would expect that Europeans in general move to other countries more easily than Americans, starting with moving to other European countries, which of course is encouraged, with things like Erasmus. The language barrier is also one way only, all young Europeans speak English (not perfectly, but well enough).

          As for the money, are you joking ? I'm not too familiar with US bills but they all look the same, and are the same size, not very user friendly. Also, nothing above 100$ (the ECB is following suit, having stopped making 500€ bills, but there still are 200€ ones).

          There are of course McDonald's everywhere, including in Venice for example. Other US fast foods are rarer though, Burger Kings are fairly common, Five Guys is expanding, Subway is everywhere...
          New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
           
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          Aesma
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:17 am

          GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

          GF


          A market of 300 million US citizens to grow in helps a lot. It's even more evident for Facebook, Amazon, and Google. Then there is the financial power, aka the money. Amazon lost money for years but had financial backing.

          Europe is improving but still, a French or UK start-up cannot easily succeed in Poland or Croatia, cultural differences in the EU are huge.
          New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
           
          VSMUT
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:18 am

          Dutchy wrote:
          Super80Fan wrote:
          Aaron747 wrote:

          Getting rid of people/ideas you dislike - how patently unAmerican. Noice.


          Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?


          I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.


          Blue = the colour of the democratic party in the US.
           
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          777222LR
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:30 am

          This quickly turned into: The US is better than Europe because...entirely proving the OP's point with the article. Fishbowl view of the US, while completely ignoring the real issues that exist in the country. No one who is serious about what the OP said is turning this into a contest. If we can't point out our flaws and discuss them, then we sort of miss the mark on how to be the best. But y'all continue if you wish...
           
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          SheikhDjibouti
          Posts: 1762
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          Re: America the Mediocre

          Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:31 am

            Redd wrote:
            LittleSprocket wrote:
            Call me when they put a man on the moon.

            Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

            I'll skip the black & white image of a small fraction of over 1600 German scientists & engineers "invited" to help America under Operation Paperclip. I like the fact that some of them were brought over under "temporary, limited military custody". Having said that, the alternative for the many Nazi party members amongst them was most probably even worse.
            GalaxyFlyer wrote:
            True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

            Quite correct! It was America that was the only country not ravaged by six years of war (¹) and forced to spend most of the next decade rebuilding &/or paying off debts.
            In fact, it was probably the Brits alone buying thousands of American made aircraft, and other long forgotten stuff (e.g. proximity fuzes for AA shells) (²) that left the US economy in a very healthy state by 1945. War is good (if you are an armaments manufacturer, and don't have bombs raining down on your factories)!

            So America didn't "make" the right environment; it was fortuitously blessed with such as a direct consequence of WWII.
            In the interests of fairness, I will gladly concede the USA was already well on its' way before then. It just speeded things up.

            Likewise, in the interests of historical accuracy, I will argue that if Germany prevailed in WWII, it would have been a Nazi planting a swastika on the surface of the moon instead of Neil Armstrong. And probably way before 1969 too!
            "Ein kleiner Schritt für den Menschen, ein Riesensprung für das Meisterrennen"™

            GalaxyFlyer wrote:
            Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

            There was.
            Given that computing was inevitably going to be dominated by English as a language, it was inevitable that the only real competitor in this field would be the Brits.
            Plus of course, it was the Brits who invented computers. :stirthepot:

            ICL was for many years a direct competitor to IBM in European markets. I do not try to fool myself that it was ever going to threaten IBM on a global scale, but they were big enough to takeover Nokiadata to reinforce their presence in Scandinavia, and their alliance with Fujitsu opened up other markets.
            Ultimately IBM, and more recently Apple & Microsoft, ensured the death of any meaningful competitor, not just in Europe, but in the USA too.
            Never heard of ICL?
            Perhaps that's just another example of why this thread exists. :roll:

            (¹) Six years of war for us in Europe, somewhat less for other countries. e.g. Japan only had to suffer for half that time before Hiroshima & Nagasaki ended their ordeal.
            On the other hand, apart from Pearl Harbor itself, and the 8,500 Japs that briefly held a small corner of the Aleutian islands, how many bombs actually landed on US soil?

            (²) In an all too familiar story, the AA proximity fuze was originally designed by the Brits, but handed over to the US free & gratis, who improved it, streamlined production, and during WWII the likes of General Electric, RCA & Sylvania churned out over 22 million of them at a cost of $1 billion. Quite how much it cost the UK I cannot say, but by 1945 it was another substantial debt.
            Nothing to see here; move along please.
             
            bgm
            Topic Author
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:55 am

            GalaxyFlyer wrote:
            Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

            GF


            This is precisely the mentality that the article I posted talks about. You've got your back so far up the wall getting all defensive and trying to spout the 'rah rah rah 'Murca best' trope, that the reality is actually quite different to your perception. And ultimately, the US will not progress with this mentality.

            The endgame is that you'll end up living in a complete shithole while proudly boasting the utopia you portray it to be.
            ████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
             
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            Aesma
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:03 am

            In France we also had a team of German rocket scientists helping starting our own space industry, although it was mostly kept from the public : 150 German specialists of the V2 lived and worked at the LRBA in Vernon, with their families, in a "German village". Many of them were convinced to go there as they didn't want to be as far from Germany as the US, and feared abduction from the two superpowers.
            New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
             
            GDB
            Posts: 13248
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:55 am

            Who has heard of the Tizard Mission? In fairness it is not well known generally.

            https://nypost.com/2015/09/27/the-trunk ... the-world/

            Though you might reasonably conclude that even allowing for the vast amount of post war rebuilding (and in Britain's case a whole load of new responsibilities such as garrisoning Germany and other places not previously part of Empire and Commonwealth, hence the unprecedented peacetime conscription between 1947-60), that these leads in technology would translate down the years.
            It's a fair question, where is the European or just British Microsoft etc.

            Well in computers the work for years was classified, the pioneering machines that broke the codes were in use into the Cold War, what they did was only declassified in the late 1970's.
            The other major area where the UK was ahead, jet engines, the UK has managed to stay in the game.
             
            Kiwirob
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:41 pm

            NIKV69 wrote:
            Kiwirob wrote:


            You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.



            No we don't. This is just more spin and propaganda from the hate the USA crowd. Don't include shootings in crimes such as robbery etc in mass shootings. They are not the same.


            On average it’s daily, here’s a list, try and disputed it.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2019
             
            WIederling
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:47 pm

            SheikhDjibouti wrote:
            Given that computing was inevitably going to be dominated by English as a language, it was inevitable that the only real competitor in this field would be the Brits.
            Plus of course, it was the Brits who invented computers. :stirthepot:


            First Turing complete programmable "computer". ( and a programming language.)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse
            Murphy is an optimist
             
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            seb146
            Posts: 20692
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:26 pm

            I only brought up the food because I hear how people in rural America talk about ethnic food. Americans are used to fast food as a staple in the diet rather than fresh and waiting. I, personally, do not like the idea of eating late, as I hear they do in Spain. On the West Coast, we eat our biggest meal anywhere from 5PM to 7PM. Another thing that rural Americans are offended by are tacos. They think "real" tacos should be crunch yellow shell with ground mystery meat, lettuce, and yellow processed pasteurized cheese product.

            There are pros and cons about both Europe and United States. The food? Meh.... The real biggest differences are health care and being who you are. I feel I have to watch myself in many parts of the United States. If I let slip too soon that I am gay, there will be trouble. I know it is that way in parts of the EU but it does not seem as bad there. Health care goes without saying.
            You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
             
            N1611B
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:55 pm

            Kiwirob wrote:
            NIKV69 wrote:
            Kiwirob wrote:


            You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.



            No we don't. This is just more spin and propaganda from the hate the USA crowd. Don't include shootings in crimes such as robbery etc in mass shootings. They are not the same.


            On average it’s daily, here’s a list, try and disputed it.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2019


            Your link shows that there are varying definitions of mass shooting. According to one of the most commonly used definitions (the FBI and ABC news definition), there have been 17 mass shootings in the United States in 2019. Still far too many, but a far cry from "daily".

            https://abcnews.go.com/US/deadly-mass-s ... d=63449799
             
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            Super80Fan
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:05 pm

            Dutchy wrote:
            Super80Fan wrote:
            Aaron747 wrote:

            Getting rid of people/ideas you dislike - how patently unAmerican. Noice.


            Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?


            I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.


            Your local/county/state gang in blue, otherwise known as “the police” or “cops”.
            RIP McDonnell Douglas
            RIP US Airways
             
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            Super80Fan
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:06 pm

            VSMUT wrote:
            Dutchy wrote:
            Super80Fan wrote:

            Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?


            I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.


            Blue = the colour of the democratic party in the US.


            Nope, boys in blue = your local gang with weapons AKA “the police”.
            RIP McDonnell Douglas
            RIP US Airways
             
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            seb146
            Posts: 20692
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:17 pm

            Super80Fan wrote:
            Dutchy wrote:
            Super80Fan wrote:

            Just like Blue ISIS gets rid of minority groups/social classes they don't like by "fearing for their lives"?


            I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.


            Your local/county/state gang in blue, otherwise known as “the police” or “cops”.


            That is actually a good point. We don't hear about police in EU gunning down an unarmed minority while taking Anglo men with no shots fired. It happens so often in the United Stated that media does not even report it anymore. How long has it been since an unarmed black man selling single cigarettes on the street in New York City was murdered by police and one officer was just fired for that.
            You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
             
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            DL717
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            Re: America the Mediocre

            Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:24 pm

            GalaxyFlyer wrote:
              Redd wrote:
              LittleSprocket wrote:
              Call me when they put a man on the moon.


              Well here's the team that did it. Try to find an American in there..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

              Image


              True, but everyone one of them together couldn’t have put a man on the moon back in their home countries. It’s America that made the right environment for the achievement.

              Why is there no European Apple or Microsoft?

              GF


              Nevermind the, well, bank of America that paid for it.
              Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
               
              N1611B
              Posts: 170
              Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:50 pm

              seb146 wrote:
              Super80Fan wrote:
              Dutchy wrote:

              I am intrigued by your comment, who is the Blue ISIS frame referring to? And who would like this group get rid off? And how does this group "fearing for their lives"? Would be interested in the answer.


              Your local/county/state gang in blue, otherwise known as “the police” or “cops”.


              That is actually a good point. We don't hear about police in EU gunning down an unarmed minority while taking Anglo men with no shots fired. It happens so often in the United Stated that media does not even report it anymore. How long has it been since an unarmed black man selling single cigarettes on the street in New York City was murdered by police and one officer was just fired for that.


              Eric Garner wasn't "murdered". There's a reason why the DOJ under both Obama and Trump declined to press charges in that case. Moreover, actual instances of police wrongfully killing people in the United States are very rare. The police are involved in over 1,000 shootings a year nationwide, and only a handful are even controversial. Of the "controversial" shootings, many of them end up being completely justified once all of the facts come out (see: Ferguson).
               
              BravoOne
              Posts: 3587
              Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:55 pm

              Aesma wrote:
              SoCalPilot wrote:
              I keep hearing that we should strive to be more like European countries. If that's the case, then why do Europeans migrate to the US in far more numbers than the other way around?


              Money.

              If you have a skill that can make you money, you will get even more money in the US. Sometimes 10 times more.

              If you're average or below average, that's another story. You can get more money, but the stuff that used to be cheap in your home country are expensive in the US (healthcare for starters). Still, on the face of it, you can be convinced it's a good idea.

              Now, it's not like migrating to the US is that easy, so people who do it are motivated, or already have money, or both.

              An uncle of mine was convinced by his wife to try it out. Her brother was already living in the US. They did an entrepreneur visa (need to invest 500000$), opened a bakery, were successful enough. Their older kid however was bad at school, couldn't get to college, and ended up having to leave the country. Then my uncle couldn't adapt, his wife left him, and he came back too. Their younger kid has quit college to make money playing video games, he married his girlfriend to get residency.

              Personally I think about it sometimes. I don't think my diploma is good enough to get me a visa, but I might be wrong. Healthcare would be less of a concern as I can always come back to France if I get cancer or something and am not covered in the US. I would make double the money, and the things I like are much cheaper (general aviation, sportscars...). Even though I disagree with many happenings in the US, if my life there can be nicer, why not ?



              Sounds like you will be happier in France.
               
              BravoOne
              Posts: 3587
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              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:00 pm

              N1611B wrote:
              seb146 wrote:
              Super80Fan wrote:

              Your local/county/state gang in blue, otherwise known as “the police” or “cops”.


              That is actually a good point. We don't hear about police in EU gunning down an unarmed minority while taking Anglo men with no shots fired. It happens so often in the United Stated that media does not even report it anymore. How long has it been since an unarmed black man selling single cigarettes on the street in New York City was murdered by police and one officer was just fired for that.


              Eric Garner wasn't "murdered". There's a reason why the DOJ under both Obama and Trump declined to press charges in that case. Moreover, actual instances of police wrongfully killing people in the United States are very rare. The police are involved in over 1,000 shootings a year nationwide, and only a handful are even controversial. Of the "controversial" shootings, many of them end up being completely justified once all of the facts come out (see: Ferguson).



              He was fired unjustly IMO. And, by the way.... was not found guilty of any murder. Maybe you should try working the streets of NYC sometime. You need to get grip on the facts before posting these misleading statements.
               
              N1611B
              Posts: 170
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              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:07 pm

              BravoOne wrote:
              N1611B wrote:
              seb146 wrote:

              That is actually a good point. We don't hear about police in EU gunning down an unarmed minority while taking Anglo men with no shots fired. It happens so often in the United Stated that media does not even report it anymore. How long has it been since an unarmed black man selling single cigarettes on the street in New York City was murdered by police and one officer was just fired for that.


              Eric Garner wasn't "murdered". There's a reason why the DOJ under both Obama and Trump declined to press charges in that case. Moreover, actual instances of police wrongfully killing people in the United States are very rare. The police are involved in over 1,000 shootings a year nationwide, and only a handful are even controversial. Of the "controversial" shootings, many of them end up being completely justified once all of the facts come out (see: Ferguson).



              He was fired unjustly IMO. And, by the way.... was not found guilty of any murder. Maybe you should try working the streets of NYC sometime. You need to get grip on the facts before posting these misleading statements.


              Did you mean to quote the poster I was replying to?
               
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              DL717
              Posts: 1733
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              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:52 pm

              Kiwirob wrote:
              NIKV69 wrote:
              Kiwirob wrote:


              You do have daily mass shootings, it's just that not all of them result in someone being killed, just plenty of people in hospital.



              No we don't. This is just more spin and propaganda from the hate the USA crowd. Don't include shootings in crimes such as robbery etc in mass shootings. They are not the same.


              On average it’s daily, here’s a list, try and disputed it.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2019


              If you consider two people getting shot in a single incident a mass shooting, then you aren’t being honest. Two people or even 3-5 doesn’t fit the definition of “mass”. Wikipedia is playing fast and loose with the definition. Big time.
              Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
               
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              seb146
              Posts: 20692
              Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:52 pm

              BravoOne wrote:
              N1611B wrote:
              seb146 wrote:

              That is actually a good point. We don't hear about police in EU gunning down an unarmed minority while taking Anglo men with no shots fired. It happens so often in the United Stated that media does not even report it anymore. How long has it been since an unarmed black man selling single cigarettes on the street in New York City was murdered by police and one officer was just fired for that.


              Eric Garner wasn't "murdered". There's a reason why the DOJ under both Obama and Trump declined to press charges in that case. Moreover, actual instances of police wrongfully killing people in the United States are very rare. The police are involved in over 1,000 shootings a year nationwide, and only a handful are even controversial. Of the "controversial" shootings, many of them end up being completely justified once all of the facts come out (see: Ferguson).



              He was fired unjustly IMO. And, by the way.... was not found guilty of any murder. Maybe you should try working the streets of NYC sometime. You need to get grip on the facts before posting these misleading statements.


              He was in police custody screaming "I CAN'T BREATHE!" and died. Because he was selling single cigarettes. And unarmed.
              You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
               
              Kiwirob
              Posts: 12240
              Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

              Re: America the Mediocre

              Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:53 pm

              DL717 wrote:
              Kiwirob wrote:
              NIKV69 wrote:

              No we don't. This is just more spin and propaganda from the hate the USA crowd. Don't include shootings in crimes such as robbery etc in mass shootings. They are not the same.


              On average it’s daily, here’s a list, try and disputed it.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2019


              If you consider two people getting shot in a single incident a mass shooting, then you aren’t being honest. Two people or even 3-5 doesn’t fit the definition of “mass”. Wikipedia is playing fast and loose with the definition. Big time.


              Apparently the official definition of a mass shooting is 4 or more people shot at roughly the same time in the same incident. All the shootings listed in the linked wiki page are 4 or more people, they’re all mass shootings.

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