caliboy93
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Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:52 am

This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:59 am

Brazil and Indonesia are doing 60% of yhe planet-killing heavy lifting for short term economic gain. Disgusting. With the recent arctic circle observations from NASA and now this, we might as well admit everyone under 15 now is royally effed.
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caliboy93
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Brazil and Indonesia are doing 60% of yhe planet-killing heavy lifting for short term economic gain. Disgusting. With the recent arctic circle observations from NASA and now this, we might as well admit everyone under 15 now is royally effed.


Why everyone under 15?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 am

That's what happens when the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France etc "are evil" yet third world countries like China, Brazil. India, etc are given passes to do whatever they want.
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:29 am

caliboy93 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Brazil and Indonesia are doing 60% of yhe planet-killing heavy lifting for short term economic gain. Disgusting. With the recent arctic circle observations from NASA and now this, we might as well admit everyone under 15 now is royally effed.


Why everyone under 15?


Because the revised estimates from NOAA/IPCC indicate many coastal cities will need to be defended/relocated within 25 years, as well as large swaths of ME/South Asia becoming uninhabitable due to regular occurrence of 50-degree temperatures. That means they’ll still be 40 or under when the mass migrations are in full swing.
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TSS
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Brazil and Indonesia are doing 60% of yhe planet-killing heavy lifting for short term economic gain. Disgusting. With the recent arctic circle observations from NASA and now this, we might as well admit everyone under 15 now is royally effed.


Why everyone under 15?


Because the revised estimates from NOAA/IPCC indicate many coastal cities will need to be defended/relocated within 25 years, as well as large swaths of ME/South Asia becoming uninhabitable due to regular occurrence of 50-degree temperatures. That means they’ll still be 40 or under when the mass migrations are in full swing.


Then the time to plan accordingly by buying up property at elevations that will be waterfront in a few years is NOW!
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Aesma
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:49 am

I'd say the ones that will be old by then will be the most screwed, the young can adapt.

But I'm not sure there is a "by then". Today, there are already consequences, each year will bring new ones.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:37 am

TSS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:

Why everyone under 15?


Because the revised estimates from NOAA/IPCC indicate many coastal cities will need to be defended/relocated within 25 years, as well as large swaths of ME/South Asia becoming uninhabitable due to regular occurrence of 50-degree temperatures. That means they’ll still be 40 or under when the mass migrations are in full swing.


Then the time to plan accordingly by buying up property at elevations that will be waterfront in a few years is NOW!


Not sure how relevant contemporary economic measures will be in 30-40 years’ time...
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:48 am

caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 pm

The source of this historic and unstoppable deforestation has mix more basic beginnings: Brazil’s messed up land laws that create a chaotic judicial and regulatory environment.

This creates favelas in Rio and São Paulo all the way to uncontrollable deforestation in the Amazon.

Brazil’s newly elected government is talking about getting this rectified. Finally. This is a good thing for conservation and for people. The old system has failed people and nature.

Deforestation has been rapidly increasing since 2012. It is not Bolsonaro’s doing nor is he encouraging it.
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Olddog
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:09 pm

PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.


Is it a joke post ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amazon-rainforest-fires-jair-bolsonaro-ngo-san-paolo-a9075071.html
Last edited by Olddog on Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Classa64
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:10 pm

Sadly, I'm pretty sure that the fires, damage and clear cutting of the Amazon have been going on for years. Its in the news because the fires are bigger, and people are noticing more now, even me.

Go onto google earth, zoom in on Brazil and turn back the time function to 12/94 as you move the slider forward to now watch the forest. Staggering to see the forest disappear as you move the slider forward.

There are species and people in those areas that are disappearing forever, but what does one individual do about it ?
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Mortyman
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:37 pm

PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.



No and

Norway freezes support for the Amazon Fund because the Bolsonaro government has in practice shut it down and the technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation . The political relationship Norway-Brazil is currently ice cold as the government of Brazil and the President has taken the money that Norway has provided to the project and not done anything.

Rainforest billions

Norway has paid a total of NOK 8.3 billion to Brazil since the beginning of bilateral forest cooperation in 2008. Payments are made in arrears on the basis of verified figures on reduced deforestation. The payments go to the Amazon Fund, which is managed by the Brazilian Development Bank (BNDES). Then, the money in the fund is used to further reduce deforestation and promote sustainable development in the Amazon.
Since 2008, Norway has paid for 242 million tonnes of reduced CO2 emissions through the Amazon Fund. This corresponds to almost five years of Norwegian emissions and approximately 5000 square kilometers in the period 2008–2017.
So-called natural climate solutions, forests and land use, can account for about a third of the solution over the next ten years to reach the climate goals.


https://www.dn.no/klima/brasil/amazonas ... K_2NQ2c9ng
 
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Aesma
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:38 pm

The EU-Mercosur deal was supposed to increase exports from Brazil, a lot of which are agricultural products.

These exports already exist, for example when I visit an aunt in Brest, there is often a somewhat foul odor in all the city : it's soja, mostly from Brazil, being transformed into cattle feed.

If Brazil doesn't show any intention of changing its ways, then I could see a reverse of the free trade deal happening, with an increase in tariffs, so that there is less of a market for Brazilian products, leading to less incentive to burn down the forest.
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afcjets
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:38 pm

TSS wrote:

Then the time to plan accordingly by buying up property at elevations that will be waterfront in a few years is NOW!


You mean like our climate change leaders are doing? Obama just paid $15 million this week for 29 oceanfront acres at sea level on an island that is supposed to be underwater in ten years!
 
Olddog
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:18 pm

PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.


It occurred to me that maybe, you forgot that the longest land border France has with any country is with Brasil. French Guyana (La Guyane in french) own a huge part of the rain forest too.
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maverick4002
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:54 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
That's what happens when the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France etc "are evil" yet third world countries like China, Brazil. India, etc are given passes to do whatever they want.


Really dude
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:11 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
That's what happens when the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France etc "are evil" yet third world countries like China, Brazil. India, etc are given passes to do whatever they want.


Really dude


Yes really. The “first world” countries don’t even make up whole percentage numbers of pollution/destruction to our planet while the countries I mentioned and many others treat the planet as a garbage can and mow down trees like they’re cutting grass.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:12 am

Olddog wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.


Is it a joke post ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amazon-rainforest-fires-jair-bolsonaro-ngo-san-paolo-a9075071.html


Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:18 am

PPVRA wrote:
Olddog wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.


Is it a joke post ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amazon-rainforest-fires-jair-bolsonaro-ngo-san-paolo-a9075071.html


Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.


Are you aware NASA/ESA/JAXA observes geographic conditions around the globe? The data around these fires and expansion of deforestation is not ‘fake’.

Brasil’s own INPE reports 80+% increase in active fires since last year.

Your brand of denial is abjectly dangerous.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:22 am

Mortyman wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.



No and

Norway freezes support for the Amazon Fund because the Bolsonaro government has in practice shut it down and the technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation . The political relationship Norway-Brazil is currently ice cold as the government of Brazil and the President has taken the money that Norway has provided to the project and not done anything.

Rainforest billions

Norway has paid a total of NOK 8.3 billion to Brazil since the beginning of bilateral forest cooperation in 2008. Payments are made in arrears on the basis of verified figures on reduced deforestation. The payments go to the Amazon Fund, which is managed by the Brazilian Development Bank (BNDES). Then, the money in the fund is used to further reduce deforestation and promote sustainable development in the Amazon.
Since 2008, Norway has paid for 242 million tonnes of reduced CO2 emissions through the Amazon Fund. This corresponds to almost five years of Norwegian emissions and approximately 5000 square kilometers in the period 2008–2017.
So-called natural climate solutions, forests and land use, can account for about a third of the solution over the next ten years to reach the climate goals.


https://www.dn.no/klima/brasil/amazonas ... K_2NQ2c9ng


Technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation????

Do you know how many of those exist? There are multiple agencies, committees, organizations that aim to the the same thing. That sentence makes no sense.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:23 am

Olddog wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/23/75363986 ... -of-agenda


Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.


It occurred to me that maybe, you forgot that the longest land border France has with any country is with Brasil. French Guyana (La Guyane in french) own a huge part of the rain forest too.


What does that have to do with anything?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:25 am

PPVRA wrote:
Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.


Wow, using the language of the populist, "fake news". It is based on leaked Brazillian documents.......

Anyhow, we in the west, especially in Europe have cultivated the land to the extreme. So instead of blaming the Brazilian government, we should help the Brazilian government to let the forest alone and how to make that into a business model. Deforestation will do no-one any good, very much including Brasil.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Olddog wrote:


Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.


Are you aware NASA/ESA/JAXA observes geographic conditions around the globe? The data around these fires and expansion of deforestation is not ‘fake’.

Brasil’s own INPE reports 80+% increase in active fires since last year.

Your brand of denial is abjectly dangerous.


What is my brand of denial, Aaron? Have I even come remotely close to denying that deforestation is a problem? That these fires are not happening?

If so, where have I done it?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:27 am

PPVRA wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

Brazil’s President is most certainly not pro-deforestation. That’s fake news. His government is aiming to curb illegal deforestation completely.

Macron is posturing for domestic political consumption.



No and

Norway freezes support for the Amazon Fund because the Bolsonaro government has in practice shut it down and the technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation . The political relationship Norway-Brazil is currently ice cold as the government of Brazil and the President has taken the money that Norway has provided to the project and not done anything.

Rainforest billions

Norway has paid a total of NOK 8.3 billion to Brazil since the beginning of bilateral forest cooperation in 2008. Payments are made in arrears on the basis of verified figures on reduced deforestation. The payments go to the Amazon Fund, which is managed by the Brazilian Development Bank (BNDES). Then, the money in the fund is used to further reduce deforestation and promote sustainable development in the Amazon.
Since 2008, Norway has paid for 242 million tonnes of reduced CO2 emissions through the Amazon Fund. This corresponds to almost five years of Norwegian emissions and approximately 5000 square kilometers in the period 2008–2017.
So-called natural climate solutions, forests and land use, can account for about a third of the solution over the next ten years to reach the climate goals.


https://www.dn.no/klima/brasil/amazonas ... K_2NQ2c9ng


Technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation????

Do you know how many of those exist? There are multiple agencies, committees, organizations that aim to the the same thing. That sentence makes no sense.


This is an exceedingly poor and illogical non sequitur ‘defense’. Nobody was talking about the number of agencies - this is a specific example from a Norwegian project. Instead of responding with factual information, or finding a source disputing Norway’s reports, we hear flailing emotion. Only sycophants communicate in this fashion.
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Dutchy
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:34 am

Super80Fan wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
That's what happens when the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France etc "are evil" yet third world countries like China, Brazil. India, etc are given passes to do whatever they want.


Really dude


Yes really. The “first world” countries don’t even make up whole percentage numbers of pollution/destruction to our planet while the countries I mentioned and many others treat the planet as a garbage can and mow down trees like they’re cutting grass.


Really dude. The west contributes by far the most to the destruction of the earth, so stop talking nonsense. And like I explained to you before, even pollution in China is for the west, so that is western pollution in China.

And for deforestation, well, the west did it too, only decades or centuries ago. So get off your high horse, it doesn't suit you at all.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.


Wow, using the language of the populist, "fake news". It is based on leaked Brazillian documents.......

Anyhow, we in the west, especially in Europe have cultivated the land to the extreme. So instead of blaming the Brazilian government, we should help the Brazilian government to let the forest alone and how to make that into a business model. Deforestation will do no-one any good, very much including Brasil.


Nothing “leaked” about those documents.....

Basic infrastructure is very VERY much still in need in those parts. Radical groups have choked the ost basic of investments there, and the people there are suffering.

There’s a state bordering Venezuela that has taken in massive amounts of refugees. That state isn’t connected to the national electrical grid, so it must buy electricity from Venezuela. Suffice it to say Venezuela has not been a great vendor of electricity. That state is threatened with a full electrical blackout for god knows how long. There’s a decade old project to complete a transmission power line connecting Manaus to that state, but it has been blocked over and over and over again by radical environmentalist and political groups. Because of a damn power line that’s a lifeline to those people.

That article reads like it was written by people who have never set a foot in the Amazon.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:35 am

PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

Fake news through and through.

Building basic infrastructure for the millions of people who call the Amazon home is not going to devastate it, nor is it remotely reasonable for an article to accuse Bolsonaro of being pro deforestation on that basis.

That article is ludicrous and ignorant.


Are you aware NASA/ESA/JAXA observes geographic conditions around the globe? The data around these fires and expansion of deforestation is not ‘fake’.

Brasil’s own INPE reports 80+% increase in active fires since last year.

Your brand of denial is abjectly dangerous.


What is my brand of denial, Aaron? Have I even come remotely close to denying that deforestation is a problem? That these fires are not happening?

If so, where have I done it?


It is obviously part of a larger narrative underscored by your post claiming Bolsonaro is not ‘pro-deforestation’ when that claim is demonstrably false. Western media and scientific groups have reported extensively on his cabinet appointments and their implications for Amazonia - particularly mining fraudster Ricardo Salles and Tereza Cristina. These are individuals firmly entrenched in agribusiness interests, both in word and deed - and if history is any guide, that will only mean further deforestation. As previously stated, the same crap is happening in Indonesia.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:43 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


No and

Norway freezes support for the Amazon Fund because the Bolsonaro government has in practice shut it down and the technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation . The political relationship Norway-Brazil is currently ice cold as the government of Brazil and the President has taken the money that Norway has provided to the project and not done anything.



https://www.dn.no/klima/brasil/amazonas ... K_2NQ2c9ng


Technical committee that tries to reduce deforestation????

Do you know how many of those exist? There are multiple agencies, committees, organizations that aim to the the same thing. That sentence makes no sense.


This is an exceedingly poor and illogical non sequitur ‘defense’. Nobody was talking about the number of agencies - this is a specific example from a Norwegian project. Instead of responding with factual information, or finding a source disputing Norway’s reports, we hear flailing emotion. Only sycophants communicate in this fashion.


Nice try to spin this on me. The one with the non-sequitur posts here is you. And this last one isn’t your first one committing this error, either.

My point wasn’t to go off on a tangent about the number of technical committees, etc, it was merely to demonstrate the quote shared didn’t add up to anything. The Norwegian project wasn’t really Norwegian, by the way. The funds are, but the decision of where these funds would go was made by a technical committee run by the Brazilian national development bank.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:49 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Are you aware NASA/ESA/JAXA observes geographic conditions around the globe? The data around these fires and expansion of deforestation is not ‘fake’.

Brasil’s own INPE reports 80+% increase in active fires since last year.

Your brand of denial is abjectly dangerous.


What is my brand of denial, Aaron? Have I even come remotely close to denying that deforestation is a problem? That these fires are not happening?

If so, where have I done it?


It is obviously part of a larger narrative underscored by your post claiming Bolsonaro is not ‘pro-deforestation’ when that claim is demonstrably false. Western media and scientific groups have reported extensively on his cabinet appointments and their implications for Amazonia - particularly mining fraudster Ricardo Salles and Tereza Cristina. These are individuals firmly entrenched in agribusiness interests, both in word and deed - and if history is any guide, that will only mean further deforestation. As previously stated, the same crap is happening in Indonesia.


Ricardo Salles did a great job as environmental minister in São Paulo state. He is a pragmatist and not a radical, but competent and that’s exactly what’s needed. The radicals have failed to protect squat and the evidence is patently obvious. Ricardo has said on numerous occasions that he is aiming to enforce the law and cut illegal deforestation down to zero.

Tereza Cristina is agriculture minister. I have no idea why you’re bringing her up in this thread.

Again, Bolsonaro is not pro deforestation. That’s defamation and political posturing by certain protectionist European countries, like Macron in France.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:59 am

PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

What is my brand of denial, Aaron? Have I even come remotely close to denying that deforestation is a problem? That these fires are not happening?

If so, where have I done it?


It is obviously part of a larger narrative underscored by your post claiming Bolsonaro is not ‘pro-deforestation’ when that claim is demonstrably false. Western media and scientific groups have reported extensively on his cabinet appointments and their implications for Amazonia - particularly mining fraudster Ricardo Salles and Tereza Cristina. These are individuals firmly entrenched in agribusiness interests, both in word and deed - and if history is any guide, that will only mean further deforestation. As previously stated, the same crap is happening in Indonesia.


Ricardo Salles did a great job as environmental minister in São Paulo state. He is a pragmatist and not a radical, but competent and that’s exactly what’s needed. The radicals have failed to protect squat and the evidence is patently obvious. Ricardo has said on numerous occasions that he is aiming to enforce the law and cut illegal deforestation down to zero.

Tereza Cristina is agriculture minister. I have no idea why you’re bringing her up in this thread.

Again, Bolsonaro is not pro deforestation. That’s defamation and political posturing by certain protectionist European countries, like Macron in France.


Perhaps ‘radicals’ in Brasil have failed but that is no reason to back ministers already implicated in environmental plan fraud like Salles. Cristina was brought up because she was a member of the agribusiness caucus while serving in the lower house. Did she not seek to drastically cut controls on pesticides? The two of them comprise a clear danger to deforestation and conservation efforts based on their record. ‘Foxes guarding the henhouse’ as a Dutch commentator put it so well.

If they were truly competent, for example, they would be thinking out of the box and actively courting partnerships with researchers and companies abroad to develop synthetic/lab-grown meat technologies for use in Brasil, as both a job generator and measure to reduce the agribusiness land footprint overall. But, yeah, nah.

As these are the people Bolsonaro appointed, I stand by my statement that your claim absolving him of being pro-deforestation is demonstrably false.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is obviously part of a larger narrative underscored by your post claiming Bolsonaro is not ‘pro-deforestation’ when that claim is demonstrably false. Western media and scientific groups have reported extensively on his cabinet appointments and their implications for Amazonia - particularly mining fraudster Ricardo Salles and Tereza Cristina. These are individuals firmly entrenched in agribusiness interests, both in word and deed - and if history is any guide, that will only mean further deforestation. As previously stated, the same crap is happening in Indonesia.


Ricardo Salles did a great job as environmental minister in São Paulo state. He is a pragmatist and not a radical, but competent and that’s exactly what’s needed. The radicals have failed to protect squat and the evidence is patently obvious. Ricardo has said on numerous occasions that he is aiming to enforce the law and cut illegal deforestation down to zero.

Tereza Cristina is agriculture minister. I have no idea why you’re bringing her up in this thread.

Again, Bolsonaro is not pro deforestation. That’s defamation and political posturing by certain protectionist European countries, like Macron in France.


Perhaps ‘radicals’ in Brasil have failed but that is no reason to back ministers already implicated in environmental plan fraud like Salles. Cristina was brought up because she was a member of the agribusiness caucus while serving in the lower house. Did she not seek to drastically cut controls on pesticides? The two of them comprise a clear danger to deforestation and conservation efforts based on their record. ‘Foxes guarding the henhouse’ as a Dutch commentator put it so well.

If they were truly competent, for example, they would be thinking out of the box and actively courting partnerships with researchers and companies abroad to develop synthetic/lab-grown meat technologies for use in Brasil, as both a job generator and measure to reduce the agribusiness land footprint overall. But, yeah, nah.

As these are the people Bolsonaro appointed, I stand by my statement that your claim absolving him of being pro-deforestation is demonstrably false.


Most pesticides that have been legalized this year are merely generic versions of previously approved molecules.

Synthetic meat, if it ever becomes a thing, isn’t going to produce jobs for another decade plus.

Without addressing the needs of the local population, without sustainable economic alternatives, deforestation will continue.

FYI, land in the Amazon region used for agriculture has to, by law, be protected to 80% of the area. Only 20% may be used for agriculture. This is why the majority of deforestation isn’t done by large agribusiness, but by small illegal actors... and a lot of
Those actors are natives who live within protected reserves. Too many foolish people in São Paulo, Rio, Europe and America think natives don’t want improvements to their lives. Only some want to continue living without modern amenities—and remember, even these people can change their minds. This has led to a lot of conflict because those reserves are also meant to be conservation areas. And alas, they belong to the natives, right? But here comes the Brazilian government saying they can’t mine, they can’t log..

.. It’s a clusterF and Bolsonaro’s government is the first one I hear talking about this with real intent on fixing land management in the Amazon.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Olddog
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:51 am

Do you think the world is full of gullible idiots? Do you think we can't see the facts thru your attempts at propaganda?
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:10 am

Olddog wrote:
Do you think the world is full of gullible idiots? Do you think we can't see the facts thru your attempts at propaganda?


If you think NGOs who in the last 15-20 years have received millions and millions of dollars in funding from the Brazilian government and who now face that funding dry up are going to go down without a fight, without yelling bloody murder, then by all means, keep believing them and keep believing the articles you read based on information they pass along to those journalists.

Bolsonaro has, indeed, had a very negative rhetoric towards these NGOs. And I do think he has a communication problem because after decades of one sided radicalism, he spends a lot of time talking about the damage these groups have done, while spending little time balancing his rhetoric. But for people to suggest that he literally is trying to cut down the forest..... that’s just absurd.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:09 pm

PPVRA wrote:

.. It’s a clusterF and Bolsonaro’s government is the first one I hear talking about this with real intent on fixing land management in the Amazon.


It's too late for that - as Macron alluded to yesterday, if Brazil is unable to handle the situation, protecting the Amazon through international moves is a far more viable case for invasion than any since WW2. The science clearly establishes the Amazon's importance to the planet far exceeds Brazil's sovereign concerns.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:24 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
That's what happens when the USA, Canada, UK, Germany, France etc "are evil" yet third world countries like China, Brazil. India, etc are given passes to do whatever they want.


Really dude


Yes really. The “first world” countries don’t even make up whole percentage numbers of pollution/destruction to our planet while the countries I mentioned and many others treat the planet as a garbage can and mow down trees like they’re cutting grass.


A lot of the pollution created by those "third world" countries are a result of working to satisfy First World demands.

You think that America, Canada etc are doing great by recycling everything and the like - but in the end Canadian & UK trash are found thousands of miles away, in Southeast Asia. As for China, their pollution is a result of producing the iPhone in your hand that your replace every single year, or the component in the batteries of the Tesla you bought because you want to be "green".

Case in point - why do you think Brazil is deforesting the Amazon at a rapid pace? To meet demand for soybeans from the EU and the Americas. EU's own study showed that soybeans contributed the highest share of deforestation based on EU consumption & imports, so blame Brazil for this?
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

.. It’s a clusterF and Bolsonaro’s government is the first one I hear talking about this with real intent on fixing land management in the Amazon.


It's too late for that - as Macron alluded to yesterday, if Brazil is unable to handle the situation, protecting the Amazon through international moves is a far more viable case for invasion than any since WW2. The science clearly establishes the Amazon's importance to the planet far exceeds Brazil's sovereign concerns.


Pure political posturing for a domestic audience that’s economically very protectionist.

There’s nothing to blame Bolsonaro for at this point. He took office in January. It’s his predecessors who have cause economic chaos, resulting in increased deforestation, and that’s apparently who Macron wants to return? Insane. And to suggest violence on top of it is asinine.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:59 pm

NASA says the fires are no worse than the average over the last 15 years.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/image ... -in-brazil

This isn’t new, much less news, but it’s gone “viral” and a bunch of ignorant people are finding out it happens. Politicians are jumping on the bandwagon.


NOTE: deforestation IS worse and has been worsening since 2012. Don’t make assumptions about these fires necessarily being related to deforestation. No doubt some are but not all.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:08 pm

Also worth mentioning is the sad state of affairs of state budgets, many flat broke with no resources for fire fighting.

Bolsonaro has asked the military to help with fire fighting because states can’t afford.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:10 pm

It's Not Just Brazil's Amazon - Bolivia's Vital Forests Are Burning Out of Control, Too

https://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-not-j ... n-fire-too


If it was all on Bolsonaro, Bolivia wouldn’t be burning, too.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:22 pm

Brazil's President needs to be impeached for this reason.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:33 pm

PPVRA wrote:
It's Not Just Brazil's Amazon - Bolivia's Vital Forests Are Burning Out of Control, Too

https://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-not-j ... n-fire-too


If it was all on Bolsonaro, Bolivia wouldn’t be burning, too.


That is true, but that doesn’t mean Bolsonaro requires a passionate defense. By his cabinet choices and clear preference for agribusiness and farmers’ interests over sound environmental stewardship, he is clearly a bad choice for the world’s overwhelming interest in a healthy and protected Amazon.
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PPVRA
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
It's Not Just Brazil's Amazon - Bolivia's Vital Forests Are Burning Out of Control, Too

https://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-not-j ... n-fire-too


If it was all on Bolsonaro, Bolivia wouldn’t be burning, too.


That is true, but that doesn’t mean Bolsonaro requires a passionate defense. By his cabinet choices and clear preference for agribusiness and farmers’ interests over sound environmental stewardship, he is clearly a bad choice for the world’s overwhelming interest in a healthy and protected Amazon.


I’m not really giving him a passionate defense. Although it is of high importance his shift to settling legal and land conflicts that have long battered the region, it’s people and the environment, he does have failings—he should be more clear about his plans for the Amazon (a big reason Norway suspended funding), moderate his rhetoric and work something out with Norway so the Amazon Fund can be reestablished. Also, and it’s not entirely his fault, but he could have asked for help sooner.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Really dude


Yes really. The “first world” countries don’t even make up whole percentage numbers of pollution/destruction to our planet while the countries I mentioned and many others treat the planet as a garbage can and mow down trees like they’re cutting grass.


Really dude. The west contributes by far the most to the destruction of the earth, so stop talking nonsense. And like I explained to you before, even pollution in China is for the west, so that is western pollution in China.

And for deforestation, well, the west did it too, only decades or centuries ago. So get off your high horse, it doesn't suit you at all.


So I'm assuming you will be leaving the Netherlands shortly and moving to one of these third world countries?

Enjoy your time there.
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Okie
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:34 am

caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.

The only atmosphere planet earth had was CO2 until some massive genetic malfunction created chlorophyll which caused cells to produce a nasty poison from photosynthesis called oxygen destroying the Carbon Dioxide based planet.

Okie
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:40 am

Okie wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
This is really disturbing, and immediate action is needed. The Amazon produces 20% of our world's oxygen, and Brazil's Trumpian president is pro-deforestation.

The only atmosphere planet earth had was CO2 until some massive genetic malfunction created chlorophyll which caused cells to produce a nasty poison from photosynthesis called oxygen destroying the Carbon Dioxide based planet.

Okie


I do not understand your point, can you live on reduced oxygen? I might point out the mile high city and sports consequences of playing there.
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Dutchy
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:12 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yes really. The “first world” countries don’t even make up whole percentage numbers of pollution/destruction to our planet while the countries I mentioned and many others treat the planet as a garbage can and mow down trees like they’re cutting grass.


Really dude. The west contributes by far the most to the destruction of the earth, so stop talking nonsense. And like I explained to you before, even pollution in China is for the west, so that is western pollution in China.

And for deforestation, well, the west did it too, only decades or centuries ago. So get off your high horse, it doesn't suit you at all.


So I'm assuming you will be leaving the Netherlands shortly and moving to one of these third world countries?

Enjoy your time there.


Wow, dude, what a bizarre statement. With your intellegence you know this, so why make such a statement. You just want to continue your lifestyle without any concessions, disregarding what it does for the environment and thus you don't care what happens to hundreds of millions of people in the short-term and billions on the long term.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Really dude. The west contributes by far the most to the destruction of the earth, so stop talking nonsense. And like I explained to you before, even pollution in China is for the west, so that is western pollution in China.

And for deforestation, well, the west did it too, only decades or centuries ago. So get off your high horse, it doesn't suit you at all.


So I'm assuming you will be leaving the Netherlands shortly and moving to one of these third world countries?

Enjoy your time there.


Wow, dude, what a bizarre statement. With your intellegence you know this, so why make such a statement. You just want to continue your lifestyle without any concessions, disregarding what it does for the environment and thus you don't care what happens to hundreds of millions of people in the short-term and billions on the long term.


I do what I can as one person, why aren't you demanding the same out of China, Brazil, and India?
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Dutchy
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Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:03 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

So I'm assuming you will be leaving the Netherlands shortly and moving to one of these third world countries?

Enjoy your time there.


Wow, dude, what a bizarre statement. Someone with your intelligence you should know this, so why make such a statement. You just want to continue your lifestyle without any concessions, disregarding what it does for the environment and thus you don't care what happens to hundreds of millions of people in the short-term and billions on the long term.


I do what I can as one person, why aren't you demanding the same out of China, Brazil, and India?


The west pollutes far more per person than in China, Brazil and India. So yes they need to do something - and are doing it also because of the quality of the air especially in China - but let's start with who are polluting the most. An American pollutes twice that of the European and 5 times of a Chinese, and they produce a lot of the western world. So that's why. And as far as I can see, you just try to get an excuse so you don't have to take any responsibility.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
seat64k
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Amazon rainforest is burning

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
The west pollutes far more per person than in China, Brazil and India.


This is an insincere argument. It's expressed in "per person" because such a large number of people in those countries do not have the economic means to contribute much, if anything, to the pollution.

Dutchy wrote:
So yes they need to do something - and are doing it also because of the quality of the air especially in China - but let's start with who are polluting the most.


That would be China. Even with your contorted logic, it would still be China.

Dutchy wrote:
An American pollutes twice that of the European and 5 times of a Chinese


Yet, if you care about your lungs, you would much rather live in New York city than Beijing.

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