Looks like Johnson and Johnson will have to pay over a half a billion dollars to the state of OK for their role in the opioid crisis. According to the judgment, J&J "engaged in false and misleading marketing of both their drugs and opioids generally, and the law makes clear that such conduct is more than enough to serve as the act or omission necessary to establish the first element of Oklahoma's public nuisance law"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/26/health/o ... index.html

Of course, everything will be appealed and I won't be surprised to see this on the desk of SCOTUS someday, but it has the potential to set a big precedent for the other opioid lawsuits in the works.

On a side note, people laughed when Bernie announced that he would pursue criminal charges against oil company executives for making false and misleading claims that led to the current climate crisis, but does this open the door for that kind of action?

We are already under the assumption that money=speech and corporations=people. So, oil execs and even pharmaceutical companies can simply say "we were practicing or right of free speech because money and corporations are people" or some such nonsense.

For the Trial Lawyers: 1 Down, 49 to go.

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

It's such a shame that big corporations are being held to account for lying and misleading the public. That really does so much damage to the free will of individuals, right?

In all honesty, this is a boost to the concept of individual responsibility and free will. In order to make responsible choices you have to be presented with accurate and honest information. in order to exercise free will it helps to know the truth behind the choices you make. Wouldn't you agree?

I wonder what will happen to the prices of other medications? When a large corporation loses a law suit, they usually raise the price of their products. We already can not afford health care and medications, so we should just prepare to pay more for things we have to ration anyway.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Addicts do have free will. They willingly and freely choose to abuse these drugs and willingly and freely choose to break laws. They also have the choice to find some seedy back alley and pay cash for what they are told is almost the same thing. They still have that.

seb146 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Addicts do have free will. They willingly and freely choose to abuse these drugs and willingly and freely choose to break laws. They also have the choice to find some seedy back alley and pay cash for what they are told is almost the same thing. They still have that.

Aren't the opioid products sold prescription medication?

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

Did Oklahoma win or was J&J let go easily?

OK asked for damages in the order of billions, yet J&J was given only $0.5B fine. The stock actually rose after the ruling, which suggests that people expected way worse.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Ken777 wrote:

For the Trial Lawyers: 1 Down, 49 to go.

Whether or not you like trial lawyers, absent them, who would do anything? Is Kryptkeeper Kellyanne Konway fixing it?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Another reminder you have no idea how opioids work or how we got to this point

Also, no idea of psychology, anthropology, human behaviour, addiction and its causes.

Big business only cares about one thing: $$$

Dieuwer wrote:

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

why? Is there a marijuana epidemic coming?

MaverickM11 wrote:

Ken777 wrote:

For the Trial Lawyers: 1 Down, 49 to go.

Whether or not you like trial lawyers, absent them, who would do anything? Is Kryptkeeper Kellyanne Konway fixing it?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Another reminder you have no idea how opioids work or how we got to this point

That is correct. The public and doctors were deceived by the Pharmaceutical companies into believing the opioids they produced are harmless which caused many people to get addicted by subscription opioids such as Oxycontin. One of Pharma's blatant lies is that they made Oxycontin less addictive by putting a hard candy shell on the pills.

The AMA's response to the opioid crisis was to extremely limit prescriptions to opioids that previously doctors had been handing out like candy. So now we have thousands of people with a severe opioid addiction that can't get prescription opioids so they turn to the streets and buy illegal drugs such as Heroin and Fentanyl.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid

Redd wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

why? Is there a marijuana epidemic coming?

You bet. Lawyers will find something to sue.

If you think about it, every "vice industry" whether it be alcohol, tobacco, gambling, or drugs have been sued in one way or the other. Mostly for "enabling" the abuse and "not warning" about the risks. Did people already forget the endless lawsuits against Altria and PM?

Dieuwer wrote:

Redd wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

why? Is there a marijuana epidemic coming?

You bet. Lawyers will find something to sue.

If you think about it, every "vice industry" whether it be alcohol, tobacco, gambling, or drugs have been sued in one way or the other. Mostly for "enabling" the abuse and "not warning" about the risks. Did people already forget the endless lawsuits against Altria and PM?

I guess.... Anything that can be sued for big money eventually will.

Dieuwer wrote:

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

It is true that marijuana is getting more powerful and people do get addicted, compared to opioids, it does not cause severe physical and psychological addiction. I think edibles and refined Marijuana liquids are dangerous and should be made illegal and would be the drivers behind lawsuits.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

I predict that in a decade from now, all those marijuana companies that are currently being hyped on the stock market will also get hit with billion dollar lawsuits.

I am no fan of marijuana, but it could not be more clear now that marijuana is practically harmless, especially compared to legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol. What would they be sued for? Encouraging snacking and listening to sh!tty music?

Why don't you crawl behind the wheel of a car after smoking an entire marijuana plant. Plaintiff: "The marijuana industry didn't warn us of the risks to impaired judgement!" "They wanted us to buy marijuana!". "They didn't tell us it was bad for us!"
Or any other argument a good lawyer will come up with.

WIederling wrote:

seb146 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Addicts do have free will. They willingly and freely choose to abuse these drugs and willingly and freely choose to break laws. They also have the choice to find some seedy back alley and pay cash for what they are told is almost the same thing. They still have that.

Aren't the opioid products sold prescription medication?

And addicts still manage to get them. The manufacturer is not to blame, for some reason, for supplying addictive and deadly products.

seb146 wrote:

The manufacturer is not to blame, for some reason, for supplying addictive and deadly products.

And in this sense, I would agree. It's almost like holding Boeing liable for the 9/11 attacks...well, if they hadn't told us that planes couldn't be flown into buildings, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

If an antibiotic becomes ineffective because of resistance, is the manufacturer to blame or the malpractice of prescribing them for the silliest of things?

Unless J&J purposely sought to downplay the dangers of opioids, bribed officials, or misled doctors/consumers as to the effects, I don't see how the manufacturer is to blame.

einsteinboricua wrote:

seb146 wrote:

The manufacturer is not to blame, for some reason, for supplying addictive and deadly products.

And in this sense, I would agree. It's almost like holding Boeing liable for the 9/11 attacks...well, if they hadn't told us that planes couldn't be flown into buildings, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

If an antibiotic becomes ineffective because of resistance, is the manufacturer to blame or the malpractice of prescribing them for the silliest of things?

Unless J&J purposely sought to downplay the dangers of opioids, bribed officials, or misled doctors/consumers as to the effects, I don't see how the manufacturer is to blame.

I am actually watching a show about this very topic. J&J never said the divinities were that addictive and encouraged doctors to prescribe opioids for everything saying they are safe. And, now, the occupant of the White House is proud of J&J having an anti depressant for veterans. Ketamine. Which is not on the list of approved medications in the VA system.

einsteinboricua wrote:

Unless J&J purposely sought to downplay the dangers of opioids, bribed officials, or misled doctors/consumers as to the effects, I don't see how the manufacturer is to blame.

Much of this is exactly what the state of Oklahoma (and about a dozen other sates with pending lawsuits) is alleging.

Why not sue the FDA, an agency of the US Government, they approved its use, as safe and effective, for treating pain. Why not doctors who prescribed the “safe and effective” drug? One doctor near me was arrested for prescribing opioids in dosages my doctor didn’t believe existed they were so large. Why not the pharmacies who sold the scripts repeatedly?

Like any drug, a person takes it the first time of their own volition, after that it’s a crap shoot on addiction. Docs have prescribed these pain meds for me after three surgeries and two wisdom teeth extractions—trashed ‘em or refused the script, took some aspirin. One surgery was major back operation.

GF

Speaking about Oklahoma, perhaps it is time to sue the state itself for "aiding and abetting a toxic coal mining industry that contributes to Global Warming".

How about suing the UK, Norway, Russia, Australia for the same thing owing to oil and coal production. Maybe James Watt should be tried for his terrible steam engine, certainly Diesel and Daimler should pay for global warming. I’m not freezing in the dark.


Gf

Redd wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Ken777 wrote:

For the Trial Lawyers: 1 Down, 49 to go.

Whether or not you like trial lawyers, absent them, who would do anything? Is Kryptkeeper Kellyanne Konway fixing it?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Another blow to the moral concept of individual responsibility and free will.

GF

Another reminder you have no idea how opioids work or how we got to this point

Also, no idea of psychology, anthropology, human behaviour, addiction and its causes.

Clueless, really.
But I’m sure those bootstraps are well worn from the endless manipulation.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Why not sue the FDA, an agency of the US Government, they approved its use, as safe and effective, for treating pain.

Because they never intentionally misled anyone regarding those side effects. They tested it, noted the potential risks and benefits and approved with the requirement that the addictive potential of the drugs be clearly stated. J&J then intentionally downplayed those concerns and in some cases disregarded them completely.

Also, the FDA has approved chemotherapy, but that doesn't mean chemo manufacturers should be pushing the stuff to doctors all over the country to treat indigestion or tennis elbow or whatever. J&J took the FDA approval for a very, very powerful pain medication and then pushed the drug hard to treat everything under the sun.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Why not doctors who prescribed the “safe and effective” drug?

They can only use the information provided to them by the drug company. If J&J lied about the dangers of the drug to the doctor, is it the doctors fault if he then passes that lie on to the consumer. As far the doctor knows, its not a lie at all.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

One doctor near me was arrested for prescribing opioids in dosages my doctor didn’t believe existed they were so large.

Good!

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Why not the pharmacies who sold the scripts repeatedly?

Aren't they just filling prescriptions made by the doctors who were fed false and misleading information by the drug companies?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Like any drug, a person takes it the first time of their own volition, after that it’s a crap shoot on addiction.

People don't take prescription dugs just for fun. They are trusting a professional to help them solve a medical problem. If that professional has been given bad information, then that is the fault of the party that provided that information.

This opioid epidemic is real. Its not being invented for ratings or anything like that, and problems like this don't arise for no reason at all. So if you look at all the parties involved in the development, approval, sales, prescribing and using of this medication, only one of them acted in bad faith. With that in mind, Id say holding them accountable is a pretty good place to start.

2122M wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Like any drug, a person takes it the first time of their own volition, after that it’s a crap shoot on addiction.

People don't take prescription dugs just for fun. They are trusting a professional to help them solve a medical problem. If that professional has been given bad information, then that is the fault of the party that provided that information.

I disagree with GalaxyFlyer's statement but also disagree with your reply to an extent.

If the professional was given wrong information, yes, it's the fault of the information provider. However, we've seen how doctors attempt to overprescribe medication or actually bow to patient demands and prescribe what THEY want. Again, I mention the example with antibiotics, therefore creating antibiotic resistance.

So initially, it may have been possible that some doctors were not aware of how addictive it becomes, but after a few years, doctors should have evidence of how bad it becomes. If patients continue to ask more frequently and higher doses, that should be a warning sign that perhaps something is up.

einsteinboricua wrote:

2122M wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Like any drug, a person takes it the first time of their own volition, after that it’s a crap shoot on addiction.

People don't take prescription dugs just for fun. They are trusting a professional to help them solve a medical problem. If that professional has been given bad information, then that is the fault of the party that provided that information.

I disagree with GalaxyFlyer's statement but also disagree with your reply to an extent.

If the professional was given wrong information, yes, it's the fault of the information provider. However, we've seen how doctors attempt to overprescribe medication or actually bow to patient demands and prescribe what THEY want. Again, I mention the example with antibiotics, therefore creating antibiotic resistance.

So initially, it may have been possible that some doctors were not aware of how addictive it becomes, but after a few years, doctors should have evidence of how bad it becomes. If patients continue to ask more frequently and higher doses, that should be a warning sign that perhaps something is up.

I agree, and there have been individual doctors who have rightly gotten in trouble for over prescribing and not doing their own due diligence. But I think that is a symptom, not a cause.

2122M wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

2122M wrote:

People don't take prescription dugs just for fun. They are trusting a professional to help them solve a medical problem. If that professional has been given bad information, then that is the fault of the party that provided that information.

I disagree with GalaxyFlyer's statement but also disagree with your reply to an extent.

If the professional was given wrong information, yes, it's the fault of the information provider. However, we've seen how doctors attempt to overprescribe medication or actually bow to patient demands and prescribe what THEY want. Again, I mention the example with antibiotics, therefore creating antibiotic resistance.

So initially, it may have been possible that some doctors were not aware of how addictive it becomes, but after a few years, doctors should have evidence of how bad it becomes. If patients continue to ask more frequently and higher doses, that should be a warning sign that perhaps something is up.

I agree, and there have been individual doctors who have rightly gotten in trouble for over prescribing and not doing their own due diligence. But I think that is a symptom, not a cause.

I wonder how difficult it would be to network all pharmacy computers together or have a flag thrown up for all opioid prescriptions to see if they had been filled at other pharmacies? The brosband fell off the roof last year and they prescribed him some kind of opioid but he had to wait to get it to make sure he didn't have any other opioid prescriptions or something like that. If they have that system of checks and balances, it does not explain why opioid use in Oregon is going up.

seb146 wrote:

I wonder how difficult it would be to network all pharmacy computers together or have a flag thrown up for all opioid prescriptions to see if they had been filled at other pharmacies?

Pharmacies are not linked. Only same brand ones or those that collaborate with each other. You won't find a CVS inquiring about whether a customer had a prescription fulfilled at a RiteAid for example.

What they could do with opioids, however, is restricts sales to just certain pharmacies. In other words, select big names like Walgreens and CVS with nationwide operations and can confirm that an opioid was already prescribed.

seb146 wrote:

The brosband fell off the roof last year and they prescribed him some kind of opioid but he had to wait to get it to make sure he didn't have any other opioid prescriptions or something like that.

That may have been the insurance and not the pharmacy. I was on anti depressants for a year and could only get refills once a month. My PCP initially prescribed some and then it was a psychiatrist, so I had two orders for the same medicine. I could only pick up one at a time, and it was for a 30 day supply. I couldn't preemptively pick up the next order until about 3 days before my current order was due to be depleted.

seb146 wrote:

If they have that system of checks and balances, it does not explain why opioid use in Oregon is going up.

If you watched the reboot of Roseanne, the first season explains a possible way that folks get hooked: they barter drugs. They may get the dosage they need by trading them for medication that others may need (give me opioids and I'll trade you for these antibiotics or antidepressants).

While $500,000,000 sounds like a lot of money, the Oklahoma AG stated that over 100,000 state citizens and addicts were affected by this suit. Assuming it’s 100,000, that’s $5,000 per addict. My opioid addiction treatment cost me $108,500, not to mention needing to quit my job and take 13 months to work through my 1 week detox, then 45 days inpatient treatment, and another 7 1/2 months of intensive outpatient therapy. Plus another $6,000+ for addiction treatment medication.

Will the state even use it for treatment, mental health, or education? A lot of red states used their $25 billion in cigarette settlement monies to plug holes in their state budgets from tax cuts.

einsteinboricua wrote:

Pharmacies are not linked. Only same brand ones or those that collaborate with each other. You won't find a CVS inquiring about whether a customer had a prescription fulfilled at a RiteAid for example.

They are linked for Opioids, Antihistamines, Antibiotics and a few other abused drugs through a state data base in Oklahoma. I think there are other states that link abused drugs.
I heard a relative comment that lives in the St Louis area they are linked by county/city in some areas. So it is not something new or just Oklahoma.

einsteinboricua wrote:

Did Oklahoma win or was J&J let go easily?OK asked for damages in the order of billions, yet J&J was given only $0.5B fine. The stock actually rose after the ruling, which suggests that people expected way worse.

Asked for $17B but only listed the cost of $.5B in the law suit which is the yearly cost not the computed total cost.

Food for thought J&J only distributed 1% of the opioids that were sold in OK so they are expecting % adjustments to the other manufacturers for the other 99%.

Okie

SanDiegoLover wrote:

While $500,000,000 sounds like a lot of money, the Oklahoma AG stated that over 100,000 state citizens and addicts were affected by this suit. Assuming it’s 100,000, that’s $5,000 per addict. My opioid addiction treatment cost me $108,500, not to mention needing to quit my job and take 13 months to work through my 1 week detox, then 45 days inpatient treatment, and another 7 1/2 months of intensive outpatient therapy. Plus another $6,000+ for addiction treatment medication.

Will the state even use it for treatment, mental health, or education? A lot of red states used their $25 billion in cigarette settlement monies to plug holes in their state budgets from tax cuts.

And that half billion will be appealed and whittled down and then eventually spent on a few education and outreach programs would be my guess. But to me the more important thing about this is that J&J was held accountable at all. If that precedent can be set it could fundamentally change the way big pharma companies market and distribute potentially harmful or addictive medication in the future. Sure, that's no solace to those already effected, but at least its a step in preventing these kinds of issues in the future.

seb146 wrote:

Addicts do have free will. They willingly and freely choose to abuse these drugs and willingly and freely choose to break laws. They also have the choice to find some seedy back alley and pay cash for what they are told is almost the same thing. They still have that.

Sorry, but you are very naive about what addiction is. Most people are, as was I before coming to grips with addiction. It’s not like we are taught what addiction is in school. But addiction is a disease. In this case, it’s called opioid use disorder. It is not a moral failing. It’s not “freely choosing” certainly. Even before addiction, when I was merely “dependent” on opioids I HAD to use them regardless of my pain levels, as any abrupt cessation or more than a minor dose decrease would make me violently ill. (Think about the worst flu bug you’ve ever had and multiply it by 10x.)

By the time a person is in full blown opioid addiction, you aren’t even using anymore to get high or feel good. You’re just striving to feel “normal” or even to just not be sick. When I was in active addiction saying that I was freely choosing to use is every bit as false and frustrating to hear, as if someone told me to stop choosing to be gay. Addiction is in the DSM. It is a disease. Addict’s brains are fundamentally rewired while using drugs like opioids.

There’s a reason the call addiction a family disease. Not only does one addict’s / alcoholic’s life impact other family members, addiction/alcoholism runs in families. Part of it is genetic. Part of it is upbringing. Part of it is experience.

SanDiegoLover wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Addicts do have free will. They willingly and freely choose to abuse these drugs and willingly and freely choose to break laws. They also have the choice to find some seedy back alley and pay cash for what they are told is almost the same thing. They still have that.

Sorry, but you are very naive about what addiction is. Most people are, as was I before coming to grips with addiction. It’s not like we are taught what addiction is in school. But addiction is a disease. In this case, it’s called opioid use disorder. It is not a moral failing. It’s not “freely choosing” certainly. Even before addiction, when I was merely “dependent” on opioids I HAD to use them regardless of my pain levels, as any abrupt cessation or more than a minor dose decrease would make me violently ill. (Think about the worst flu bug you’ve ever had and multiply it by 10x.)

By the time a person is in full blown opioid addiction, you aren’t even using anymore to get high or feel good. You’re just striving to feel “normal” or even to just not be sick. When I was in active addiction saying that I was freely choosing to use is every bit as false and frustrating to hear, as if someone told me to stop choosing to be gay. Addiction is in the DSM. It is a disease. Addict’s brains are fundamentally rewired while using drugs like opioids.

There’s a reason the call addiction a family disease. Not only does one addict’s / alcoholic’s life impact other family members, addiction/alcoholism runs in families. Part of it is genetic. Part of it is upbringing. Part of it is experience.

For some, addiction has to do with escape. Some people choose to escape using alcohol, some use meth, some use opioids. Anything could be a trigger. Loss of a loved one, loss of a sports team, perceived bad day at work. I have worked retail and food service nearly all my life and I saw it first hand. I work with a woman right now who told me when she feels customers are really bad, she mixes a shot of tequila in with her coffee. I have seen people do rails off the back of a public toilet because "I just need to get through today".

Addiction is nasty. I remember how meth made me feel. I also remember the days after. I choose not to. Seeing the addicts wandering like zombies around here, I know I have made a good decision.

There is talk that J&J grows their own special strains of poppy for opioids. Different strains have different strengths. Much like tobacco companies kept tweeking strains and blends of tobacco to make their products more and more addictive.