Dieuwer
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Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:26 am

Back in the day, wages were good and people had a lot of purchasing power.
But then, a Grand Experiment began where the Gold Standard was ditched and Globalization embraced.

1) Without a Gold Standard, "Borrow and Spend" became the fashionable thing to do. Why tax people if you can just borrow it? So, deficit spend on Welfare and other "Free Stuff" reached enormous heights. How convenient that interest rates have gone down for 40 years or so. So we could spend more!
2) Every possible job that could be shipped offshore was. Double standards included, as in "a jacket made by child labor is a no no in Europe, but you can buy it from the manufacturer in Vietnam".
3) Since people had less well-paying jobs, now they needed to go into debt to buy everything they desired.

The end result is sky-high Debt to GDP, practically broke governments, and interest rates at zero.
The latter sounds good until you recognize that in order to take care of the elderly and enjoy your final days on earth, you need a pension or some sort of savings. With interest rates at zero however, pension funds no longer can properly match income with liabilities and pension fund holdings are at risk. This is a trillion dollar time bomb waiting to go off (or better: a black hole).
Artificially low interest rates have also lead to crazed housing markets, were long-term owner of properties are golden while younger generations cannot afford anything decent and have to live in the basement of their parents.
And if you think that low interest rates mean "deflation". Well, no. You might get nothing on your savings account or treasury bond, but your health care bills will keep going up. The college education of your grandchildren will go up. Simply because of supply and demand and market (= greedy forces.

So, unless all these bad economic and financial decision made over the decades are reversed asap, the financial future and well-being of The West is impaired and the house of cards WILL come crashing down,
 
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stl07
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:28 am

More Tax cuts for the rich is sure to fix this problem too...

Or maybe its time for governments to learn fiscal responsibility
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:34 am

Think of the fall of the Roman Empire, greed corruption, immorality, and here we are. Think of the French Revolution, greed corruption and immorality and here we are.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
LittleSprocket
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:40 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Think of the fall of the Roman Empire, greed corruption, immorality, and here we are. Think of the French Revolution, greed corruption and immorality and here we are.


“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:45 am

Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

Globally, inequality has been reduced as countries from China and India down to Costa Rica and Vietnam have prospered by adopting western capitalism providing employment for millions. In 1990, the world was much more closed—China was just opening up to business, Communism kept millions under the lash of dictators. Now, everyone aspires to be rich like Americans and Europeans. The true racists would close off trade committing a billion people, not white European stock either, to poverty and subsistence living. No thanks.


GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:50 am

stl07 wrote:
More Tax cuts for the rich is sure to fix this problem too...

Or maybe its time for governments to learn fiscal responsibility


As Augustine of Hippo prayed, “let me chaste, but not yet”. Everybody wants to go to Heaven; they just done want to do what is necessary. Governments will NOT be fiscally responsible as long as politicians can buy off voters, just as they won’t don a thing beyond lip service on climate change. Get over it, politicians are as corrupt as their voters and the public is plenty corrupt. They want something for nothing.

GF
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:51 am

As was said in an old cartoon strip, we have met the enemy and they is us.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
stl07 wrote:
More Tax cuts for the rich is sure to fix this problem too...

Or maybe its time for governments to learn fiscal responsibility


As Augustine of Hippo prayed, “let me chaste, but not yet”. Everybody wants to go to Heaven; they just done want to do what is necessary. Governments will NOT be fiscally responsible as long as politicians can buy off voters, just as they won’t don a thing beyond lip service on climate change. Get over it, politicians are as corrupt as their voters and the public is plenty corrupt. They want something for nothing.

GF


Politicians are generally just the foxes guarding the henhouses of the greedy and powerful.
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Spar
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:57 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Back in the day, wages were good and people had a lot of purchasing power.
But then, a Grand Experiment began where the Gold Standard was ditched and Globalization embraced.

1) Without a Gold Standard, "Borrow and Spend" became the fashionable thing to do. Why tax people if you can just borrow it? So, deficit spend on Welfare and other "Free Stuff" reached enormous heights. How convenient that interest rates have gone down for 40 years or so. So we could spend more!
2) Every possible job that could be shipped offshore was. Double standards included, as in "a jacket made by child labor is a no no in Europe, but you can buy it from the manufacturer in Vietnam".
3) Since people had less well-paying jobs, now they needed to go into debt to buy everything they desired.

The end result is sky-high Debt to GDP, practically broke governments, and interest rates at zero.
The latter sounds good until you recognize that in order to take care of the elderly and enjoy your final days on earth, you need a pension or some sort of savings. With interest rates at zero however, pension funds no longer can properly match income with liabilities and pension fund holdings are at risk. This is a trillion dollar time bomb waiting to go off (or better: a black hole).
Artificially low interest rates have also lead to crazed housing markets, were long-term owner of properties are golden while younger generations cannot afford anything decent and have to live in the basement of their parents.
And if you think that low interest rates mean "deflation". Well, no. You might get nothing on your savings account or treasury bond, but your health care bills will keep going up. The college education of your grandchildren will go up. Simply because of supply and demand and market (= greedy forces.

So, unless all these bad economic and financial decision made over the decades are reversed asap, the financial future and well-being of The West is impaired and the house of cards WILL come crashing down,

So you want to go back to the kind of economy we had in 1933.

* shakes head * :banghead:
 
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seb146
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:18 am

Some people are quick to blame us getting off the gold standard but minimum wage went stagnant and we were told to give everything to the wealthy and it would trickle down to us and make us all better. Deregulate everything and break all the unions and we will all have everything in abundance is what they said. It has yet to happen. If we are such a wealthy nation with so much excess, why are there so many working too many hours who live in their cars or simply in a cardboard box? Even veterans and seniors?

We have tried giving nothing to the poor thinking that would make us better, maybe we should try giving more to the poor and see what happens.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:34 am

Dieuwer wrote:
where the Gold Standard was ditched ,


The gold standard was unsustainable, as economies started to grow, in value, much faster than new Gold could be dug up.

The worlds GPD is approaching 100 trillion USD, and there are less than 200Kt of Gold. Since there tends to be about as much money in circulation as we create value in a year, that would mean an ounce of Gold would now have to be 15.000 USD, if we put all Gold in Reserves. So no more golden rings, no Gold for use in the industry, medicine and such (about 80% of our Gold use).

So, holding on the the Gold Standard would have been a nice continuous all-but-guaranteed 13% interest rate for those that had Gold. For just having it. No work, no knowledge, no nothing involved.....

Since the "Value" of Gold would be utterly disconnected from the value of things we produce starting at that point, and just be as valuable as needed to cover the money we have, a Gold backed currency would be essentially just as "fiat" as paper money.

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Aesma
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:55 am

Making more stuff locally makes sense, but making everything locally doesn't. Furthermore, people absolutely have to understand and accept that they will be able to buy much less stuff, even with a better salary.

I watch a lot of financial/economic videos at the moment, the stuff that talks about what the markets are doing etc., and many analysts are saying that some indicators like production are down, investment is down, but the consumer is keeping the US economy going. Well, what is the consumer consuming exactly, if production is down ? Imported stuff from China...
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Dieuwer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:13 pm

seb146 wrote:
Some people are quick to blame us getting off the gold standard but minimum wage went stagnant and we were told to give everything to the wealthy and it would trickle down to us and make us all better. Deregulate everything and break all the unions and we will all have everything in abundance is what they said. It has yet to happen. If we are such a wealthy nation with so much excess, why are there so many working too many hours who live in their cars or simply in a cardboard box? Even veterans and seniors?

We have tried giving nothing to the poor thinking that would make us better, maybe we should try giving more to the poor and see what happens.....


Yes. You give another example of poor policy decisions.
Perhaps the Gold Standard was too restrictive, but that does not mean you should go out print money like crazy and go on a spending binge.
Anyway, if all those poor economic and financial decisions are not accurately addressed if will end badly for most.
 
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:59 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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seb146
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:21 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Sex, abortion, glutton, and politics have existed since time began, no matter who's timeline one follows. Greed has also been around forever.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Spar
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:55 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Perhaps the Gold Standard was too restrictive, but that does not mean you should go out print money like crazy and go on a spending binge.

You start out with a black / white scenario like all gold bugs, but now you imply that there should be something like the fed to adjust the money supply.
It seems that you're not really as confused as most gold bugs, you seem to understand that we need someone or something adjusting the money supply to match current economic conditions. Why the call for a gold standard then?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:21 pm

Spar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Perhaps the Gold Standard was too restrictive, but that does not mean you should go out print money like crazy and go on a spending binge.

You start out with a black / white scenario like all gold bugs, but now you imply that there should be something like the fed to adjust the money supply.
It seems that you're not really as confused as most gold bugs, you seem to understand that we need someone or something adjusting the money supply to match current economic conditions. Why the call for a gold standard then?


Because it was an example of something that could keep spending binges in check.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:54 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Spar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Perhaps the Gold Standard was too restrictive, but that does not mean you should go out print money like crazy and go on a spending binge.

You start out with a black / white scenario like all gold bugs, but now you imply that there should be something like the fed to adjust the money supply.
It seems that you're not really as confused as most gold bugs, you seem to understand that we need someone or something adjusting the money supply to match current economic conditions. Why the call for a gold standard then?


Because it was an example of something that could keep spending binges in check.


Gold could never do any such thing. This is the issue Gold bugs have. The only thing that would change is that more dollars would be used to subdivide pieces of the Gold.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:56 pm

You do understand, Dieuwer, that what we call money is 95% debt of someone? 95% of the money is created by banks when someone gets a loan.

Besides that, the neo-con way of looking at society is broken. Capitalism is great, but you need a powerful market master e.g. government. Companies want to be monopolistic, individuals want to collect more and more money. So you need someone who is on the side of the majority, not the minority of extreme wealthy.
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Dieuwer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:54 pm

Maybe just merge this thread in the thread: "US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism".
 
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Maybe just merge this thread in the thread: "US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism".


What do you want with this thread, you started it, so you must have an intent with it. 8-)
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Dieuwer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Maybe just merge this thread in the thread: "US has amoral virulent form of Capitalism".


What do you want with this thread, you started it, so you must have an intent with it. 8-)


I had free time last night and decided to plunk my rambling thoughts in a thread...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:13 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” this is what you get. No surprises. Bourgeoisie morality had real value, invest in learning, get and stay married before children, work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day still works, just not practiced by the judgement free, instant gratification crowd.

Yes, pagan morality.

GF
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:25 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” this is what you get. No surprises. Bourgeoisie morality had real value, invest in learning, get and stay married before children, work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day still works, just not practiced by the judgement free, instant gratification crowd.

Yes, pagan morality.

GF

Uh huh...and how is that working out with very traditional societies like those in Latin America? How about countries in Africa that do not follow these "pagan morality" behaviors? I don't see them as bastions of economic well being.

Yet countries that have embraced them (like Nordic countries, and Canada, and a few other European countries) seem to be doing significantly better than the US in terms of overall well being.

But sure...abortion and homosexuality are the causes of the decline of a nation. That must be why the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and others collapsed. Too much abortion and homosexuality and "pagan morality" behavior.

If I were to fear anyone, I'd fear people like you, who put blame the woes of society on people YOU don't find acceptable. I fear that if enough people like you ever come to power, a real life version of Gilead (the religious nation in The Handmaid's Tale) would come to fruition.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” this is what you get. No surprises. Bourgeoisie morality had real value, invest in learning, get and stay married before children, work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day still works, just not practiced by the judgement free, instant gratification crowd.

Yes, pagan morality.

GF

Wow, this is certainly trying to force "the reasons things are bad" onto things you don't approve of. Cute way to try and justify things for yourself. "Our value system" (at least you are accepting is as yours too) is not judgement free. While I can kinda agree with your list of "values" there were/are some many flaws and failures in the system that it never was actually in place. This is the "Wow, things were so much better in the past" mentality that so many have nowadays. People avoiding responsibility by wishing for the past etc.

Did people actually invest in learning? Those that could and were allowed too sure. Of course not the women, they best they could get was a "Mrs degree". Did people really "get and stay married before children"? All the stats I have seen show divorce was still a big factor and if not then there were more abusive situations and people staying married because they had too and mistresses was accepted norm. Work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day? Of course it works, but could people do it? Was there no reason for the implementation of social security? Because everyone worked hard, very hard as there were less protections and more had to work unpaid overtime and in more dangeous conditions. And at the end of the day most people scraped by and the children had to take care of the parents and they scraped by to do that.

You get the picture. Things were different but "better"....?

It was teh rise of the middle class that began to change that dynamic but of course we couldn't have that nowadays, no taxes were WAY to high then! Have to get rid of them so people can make more money (interesting question, have your looked at when your "values" began going south and notice any connection with taxes. I don't think there is a hard connection but there appears to be a correlation in there somewhere. Middle class is an important thing to your values and we don't foster that any more. We foster "I want my money".)

Tugg
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Aaron747
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” this is what you get. No surprises. Bourgeoisie morality had real value, invest in learning, get and stay married before children, work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day still works, just not practiced by the judgement free, instant gratification crowd.

Yes, pagan morality.

GF


So was that before or after big chunks of the moneyed class began following MBAs to next quarter KPI penny-pinch doom instead of fostering enterprises with long-term strength and quality products?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Spar
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:41 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” No surprises.

Exactly what are you saying here? What do you mean by "this is what you get"?
 
anrec80
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:11 am

stl07 wrote:
More Tax cuts for the rich is sure to fix this problem too...

Or maybe its time for governments to learn fiscal responsibility


No more rich left to tax (though not everyone sees that). Gotta learn fiscal responsibility, say no, etc.
 
anrec80
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:14 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
But sure...abortion and homosexuality are the causes of the decline of a nation. That must be why the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and others collapsed. Too much abortion and homosexuality and "pagan morality" behavior.


WTF - you really mean that? You know that in USSR same gender sex was a felony offense?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:35 am

anrec80 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
But sure...abortion and homosexuality are the causes of the decline of a nation. That must be why the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and others collapsed. Too much abortion and homosexuality and "pagan morality" behavior.


WTF - you really mean that? You know that in USSR same gender sex was a felony offense?


Nice non sequitur redirection - that’s not what he said.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:43 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
So? Certainly you're not implying that adopting "pagan morality" (whatever that is) is a factor in the downfall of a nation or its lack of success, are you?


Not implying at all, I’m stating it. When our value system became judgement free, “anything goes”, “rights but no responsibility” this is what you get. No surprises. Bourgeoisie morality had real value, invest in learning, get and stay married before children, work hard and save for the proverbial rainy day still works, just not practiced by the judgement free, instant gratification crowd.

Yes, pagan morality.

GF

Uh huh...and how is that working out with very traditional societies like those in Latin America? How about countries in Africa that do not follow these "pagan morality" behaviors? I don't see them as bastions of economic well being.

Yet countries that have embraced them (like Nordic countries, and Canada, and a few other European countries) seem to be doing significantly better than the US in terms of overall well being.

But sure...abortion and homosexuality are the causes of the decline of a nation. That must be why the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and others collapsed. Too much abortion and homosexuality and "pagan morality" behavior.

If I were to fear anyone, I'd fear people like you, who put blame the woes of society on people YOU don't find acceptable. I fear that if enough people like you ever come to power, a real life version of Gilead (the religious nation in The Handmaid's Tale) would come to fruition.


Care to point out where my post mentioned abortion or homosexuality. Do you really believe Latin America or Africa are “traditional” societies, unless you view their entire cultures through the lens of gay and abortion rights.

As a libertarian conservative, I don’t believe anyone has the right to harness state power to impose any morality or beliefs. The “progressive left” have no such compunctions and love to use government power to their ends. To your straw man, both abortion and homosexual rights were achieved quite undemocratically by harnessing five Justices to create rights neither written in the Constitution nor recognized in the past. The “progressives” would love to use government power to direct all kinds new “rights”. All of which would be sold as “it’s good for you”. We’ll I rather decide.
 
Ken777
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:25 pm

This country has changed significantly in my lifetime. Health care is basically focused on greed, not caring for patients in far too many situations. Driven by corrupt health insurance companies. Education at the K-12 levels is pretty good If you have enough wealth for private schools, or live in a luxury neighborhood. Schools serving low income levels are far too under funded and the politicians aren't going to improve that. University costs are a major rip off. Without family wealth students can look at having a lower standard of living than my generation because of the $1.5 Trillion in Student Loan Debt. There is a need to find ways to cut costs and the textbook scams are a good place to start. With all the smaller schools at risk of folding it's also a good time to cut costs in order to attract students.

Health and education are two easy areas to identify as national problems. The greed at the Executive Level of corporations is another that cannot be addressed without taxes punishing excessive greed.

Lots of problems, but the super wealthy are ready to buy the legislation that they want so I have little home of the country returning to the standards we used to enjoy.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:03 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Care to point out where my post mentioned abortion or homosexuality.

Absolutely:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, we’ve pretty much adopted Roman pagan morality on lot of things like sex, abortion, gluttony, politics, so there’s that.

Post #5 of this thread if you care to look it up.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:27 pm

Medical care until after WWII was nothing like what we have now. Doctors could set bones, remove appendixes and tonsils, the old joke of the First Aid Kit, two aspirin and a shovel was not quite a joke. The cost of medical care subsequently exploded. Two minimum wage workers could possibly have to use all of their income after taxes just to buy insurance for a family of four. The macro economics of that often is not taken into account. There is no State in the US where a minimum wage worker can rent a two bedroom apartment or house. That also has macro economic implications. A modern high tech city has need for a huge number of minimum wage workers. Retail, restaurants, health aids, cleaners, are just the biggest and most obvious. One step up the economic ladder still leaves workers unable to buy housing and health insurance for them and their kids. I grew up with a large extended families, one side of who were really close to being sustenance farmers. They didn't need much money - flour and sugar were a major portion of what they bought. There was always a place for the occasional dysfunctional family member, and that place would not come close to meeting code.

That world is gone. Wake up. We live in a complex- technocratic -money- financial - service dominated world.
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DL717
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:34 pm

seb146 wrote:
Some people are quick to blame us getting off the gold standard but minimum wage went stagnant and we were told to give everything to the wealthy and it would trickle down to us and make us all better. Deregulate everything and break all the unions and we will all have everything in abundance is what they said. It has yet to happen. If we are such a wealthy nation with so much excess, why are there so many working too many hours who live in their cars or simply in a cardboard box? Even veterans and seniors?

We have tried giving nothing to the poor thinking that would make us better, maybe we should try giving more to the poor and see what happens.....


I think you forget how the Unions made it damn near impossible to build things like cars in the US. Not only that, they were churning out crap product because the labor costs resulted in product quality cuts. It’s really been all down hill since then. Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.
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Aaron747
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:53 pm

DL717 wrote:
Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.


Hmmm, something about your statement just seems...I dunno...rooted in fantasy. Clearly there were a lot of changes to trend lines between 1975 and 1990, but not for all the reasons you claim - like many things, it's more complicated than that.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:46 pm

DL717 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some people are quick to blame us getting off the gold standard but minimum wage went stagnant and we were told to give everything to the wealthy and it would trickle down to us and make us all better. Deregulate everything and break all the unions and we will all have everything in abundance is what they said. It has yet to happen. If we are such a wealthy nation with so much excess, why are there so many working too many hours who live in their cars or simply in a cardboard box? Even veterans and seniors?

We have tried giving nothing to the poor thinking that would make us better, maybe we should try giving more to the poor and see what happens.....


I think you forget how the Unions made it damn near impossible to build things like cars in the US. Not only that, they were churning out crap product because the labor costs resulted in product quality cuts. It’s really been all down hill since then. Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.


And now it’s flipped, the owners are greedy and the workers get screwed, there has to be a happy middle ground, but right now the 1% control everything and are not going to give any of it up without a fight.

In what world is it fair when people like Bezos and the Walton family earn millions of dollars every few minutes but the majority of there employees are working for scraps, needing food stamps and welfare payments to survive?
 
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DL717
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.


Hmmm, something about your statement just seems...I dunno...rooted in fantasy. Clearly there were a lot of changes to trend lines between 1975 and 1990, but not for all the reasons you claim - like many things, it's more complicated than that.

Image

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It’s called a paradigm shift. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore. They want that desk job managing the dirty work in a far off place. You lose your manufacturing base and you lose your middle class. This results in a desk jockey class and a service class with little room in between. We barely build aircraft here anymore, it’s like the last frontier of American manufacturing.
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Aaron747
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:28 pm

DL717 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.


Hmmm, something about your statement just seems...I dunno...rooted in fantasy. Clearly there were a lot of changes to trend lines between 1975 and 1990, but not for all the reasons you claim - like many things, it's more complicated than that.

Image

Image

Image


It’s called a paradigm shift. No one wants to get their hands dirty anymore. They want that desk job managing the dirty work in a far off place. You lose your manufacturing base and you lose your middle class. This results in a desk jockey class and a service class with little room in between. We barely build aircraft here anymore, it’s like the last frontier of American manufacturing.


Um, right so aside from stating the obvious - dontcha think other stuff going on in those charts is having an effect? Or are you just going to stay in the weeds hoping the 'free market' sorts everything out?
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seb146
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Re: Insane Economic and Financial Policies of The West

Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some people are quick to blame us getting off the gold standard but minimum wage went stagnant and we were told to give everything to the wealthy and it would trickle down to us and make us all better. Deregulate everything and break all the unions and we will all have everything in abundance is what they said. It has yet to happen. If we are such a wealthy nation with so much excess, why are there so many working too many hours who live in their cars or simply in a cardboard box? Even veterans and seniors?

We have tried giving nothing to the poor thinking that would make us better, maybe we should try giving more to the poor and see what happens.....


I think you forget how the Unions made it damn near impossible to build things like cars in the US. Not only that, they were churning out crap product because the labor costs resulted in product quality cuts. It’s really been all down hill since then. Organized labor greed, and I’m taking about the organization not the members, broke the middle class. Now they are wrecking the service industry. Add to that the dual income family. There are only so many jobs.


Unions are garbage because they fought to give us workers things like living wages and affordable health care? It was not unions who made it "damn near impossible" to build in the United States. It was factory owners who wanted cheap labor and cheap raw materials. They did not want to take care of their workers. Henry Ford did not want unions but he did want his workers to have eight hour shifts and a living wage.
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