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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:08 pm

LJ wrote:
[Does the EU really want the UK to appoint a commissioner? The only reason why they make a fuss about this issue is because they want to prevent that it can have negative legal consequences if they don't do this. Or do you really expect that any UK commissioner will be accepted by the EU Parliament? I don't.


Yes, the EU wants to appoint a UK commissioner. Why? Because they want to obey the law and rules. And they want to avoid the negative legal consequences if they don't. If they sent a person to the EU that the EU parliament will reject, then there is another set of rules in place, at the moment, the UK isn't holding its end of the bargain, so that's where the problem lies.

LJ wrote:
BTW this is also a reason why this shouldn't be dragged on too long. These delays are hurting the EU from a legal point of view.


Not up to the EU, the EU can't throw members out, the members can leave if they wish. But yes, the UK is exporting its internal problems to the EU, so preferably not dragging this out is the way to go. But then again the key lies in the UK, not the EU. For now, the EU can only isolate the problem, and work around it as much as they can. This particular problem, there might be no way around it, then just appoint a UK commissioner. Perhaps there is some loophole that the current UK commissioner can stay on, until replaced by someone from the UK. Will be a commissioner without power and influence, so it will be a perfect job for Farage. :lol:
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LJ wrote:
[Does the EU really want the UK to appoint a commissioner? The only reason why they make a fuss about this issue is because they want to prevent that it can have negative legal consequences if they don't do this. Or do you really expect that any UK commissioner will be accepted by the EU Parliament? I don't.


Yes, the EU wants to appoint a UK commissioner. Why? Because they want to obey the law and rules. And they want to avoid the negative legal consequences if they don't. If they sent a person to the EU that the EU parliament will reject, then there is another set of rules in place, at the moment, the UK isn't holding its end of the bargain, so that's where the problem lies.


Do you really believe the EU actually wants the UK to appoint a commissioner? If so, they would have ensured this when they approved the extension and not at this moment. I think this is just the EU follwoing its own rules just to ensure that no negative legal consequences occur later on. If it can drag this a few weeks/months, it would happily do so.

Dutchy wrote:
LJ wrote:
BTW this is also a reason why this shouldn't be dragged on too long. These delays are hurting the EU from a legal point of view.


Not up to the EU, the EU can't throw members out, the members can leave if they wish. But yes, the UK is exporting its internal problems to the EU, so preferably not dragging this out is the way to go. But then again the key lies in the UK, not the EU. For now, the EU can only isolate the problem, and work around it as much as they can. This particular problem, there might be no way around it, then just appoint a UK commissioner. Perhaps there is some loophole that the current UK commissioner can stay on, until replaced by someone from the UK. Will be a commissioner without power and influence, so it will be a perfect job for Farage. :lol:


I disagree. The EU knew what the consequences of approving the extension were (especially as the previous extension was designed to prevent this situation from happening). It also knew that the UK is reluctant to appoint an EU Commissioner as is the EU Parliamement to approve one (or maybe better the EU Commission to have one). Nobody wants an UK EU Commissioner. You cannot blame this on the UK. The EU could have decided not to grant an extension, it could have secured an UK EU commissioner upon granting the extension or incorporate this in the new deal. The EU hasn't done this and thus indicating to me that they're not waiting for an UK EU Commissioner.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:02 pm

LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LJ wrote:
[Does the EU really want the UK to appoint a commissioner? The only reason why they make a fuss about this issue is because they want to prevent that it can have negative legal consequences if they don't do this. Or do you really expect that any UK commissioner will be accepted by the EU Parliament? I don't.


Yes, the EU wants to appoint a UK commissioner. Why? Because they want to obey the law and rules. And they want to avoid the negative legal consequences if they don't. If they sent a person to the EU that the EU parliament will reject, then there is another set of rules in place, at the moment, the UK isn't holding its end of the bargain, so that's where the problem lies.


Do you really believe the EU actually wants the UK to appoint a commissioner? If so, they would have ensured this when they approved the extension and not at this moment. I think this is just the EU follwoing its own rules just to ensure that no negative legal consequences occur later on. If it can drag this a few weeks/months, it would happily do so.


Don't know, but I think they want to mitigate the UK problems.

LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LJ wrote:
BTW this is also a reason why this shouldn't be dragged on too long. These delays are hurting the EU from a legal point of view.


Not up to the EU, the EU can't throw members out, the members can leave if they wish. But yes, the UK is exporting its internal problems to the EU, so preferably not dragging this out is the way to go. But then again the key lies in the UK, not the EU. For now, the EU can only isolate the problem, and work around it as much as they can. This particular problem, there might be no way around it, then just appoint a UK commissioner. Perhaps there is some loophole that the current UK commissioner can stay on, until replaced by someone from the UK. Will be a commissioner without power and influence, so it will be a perfect job for Farage. :lol:


I disagree. The EU knew what the consequences of approving the extension were (especially as the previous extension was designed to prevent this situation from happening). It also knew that the UK is reluctant to appoint an EU Commissioner as is the EU Parliamement to approve one (or maybe better the EU Commission to have one). Nobody wants an UK EU Commissioner. You cannot blame this on the UK. The EU could have decided not to grant an extension, it could have secured an UK EU commissioner upon granting the extension or incorporate this in the new deal. The EU hasn't done this and thus indicating to me that they're not waiting for an UK EU Commissioner.


I think the EU-team forgot about this little detail, or expected the UK not to make a problem about this. I think the former.

We'll see if this will cause a problem if the UK government decides to neglect their obligations.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think the EU-team forgot about this little detail, or expected the UK not to make a problem about this. I think the former.


They didn't forget, it was in the actual text in which the extension was granted (Paragraph 11 https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/XT-20024-2019-REV-2/en/pdf). However, if you read the paragraph it's contructed in a way that it is legally correct, but also ensures that the UK doesn't interfere with EU decisions. Moreover, the EU Commission already has legal advice which says that it can proceed with its task if it asked for a name ( https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/uk-set-to-backtrack-and-pick-an-eu-commissioner/ ). If the article is correct, and thus the UK does intend to provide a name, this action can only be seen in light of the legal advice it has been given. The Commission asks for a name and announces legal action against the UK, thus paving the way to continue with its duties as of December 1st. If the EU and UK let this drag on fro a long as they can, Brexit already happened before it comes to the application hearings for any new UK Commissioner. Everybody will be happy and no harm has been done.

BTW I wonder how you can accuse EU bureaucrats from missing a detail. They never do this, they're, unfortunately, very good in catching all the details (hence why it always takes so long to change something).
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:


We'll see if this will cause a problem if the UK government decides to neglect their obligations.


There is nothing stopping von der Leyen's commission and delaying the UK from nominating at a later date. The commission can work without all commissioners, in fact as it stands not all members are present, is it an inconvenience probably but not the end of the world
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:17 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


We'll see if this will cause a problem if the UK government decides to neglect their obligations.


There is nothing stopping von der Leyen's commission and delaying the UK from nominating at a later date. The commission can work without all commissioners, in fact as it stands not all members are present, is it an inconvenience probably but not the end of the world


quite a lot of assumptions, so I have difficulty believe your statements yet again.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:21 pm

LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the EU-team forgot about this little detail, or expected the UK not to make a problem about this. I think the former.


They didn't forget, it was in the actual text in which the extension was granted (Paragraph 11 https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/XT-20024-2019-REV-2/en/pdf). However, if you read the paragraph it's contructed in a way that it is legally correct, but also ensures that the UK doesn't interfere with EU decisions. Moreover, the EU Commission already has legal advice which says that it can proceed with its task if it asked for a name ( https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/uk-set-to-backtrack-and-pick-an-eu-commissioner/ ). If the article is correct, and thus the UK does intend to provide a name, this action can only be seen in light of the legal advice it has been given. The Commission asks for a name and announces legal action against the UK, thus paving the way to continue with its duties as of December 1st. If the EU and UK let this drag on fro a long as they can, Brexit already happened before it comes to the application hearings for any new UK Commissioner. Everybody will be happy and no harm has been done.

BTW I wonder how you can accuse EU bureaucrats from missing a detail. They never do this, they're, unfortunately, very good in catching all the details (hence why it always takes so long to change something).


I don't think the UK will leave on 31st of January, if it will leave at all, it will take at least till July or August 2020 to organize an orderly Brexit, can't be done in a month.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:

quite a lot of assumptions, so I have difficulty believe your statements yet again.


I haven't made an assumption, I'm going on the Jean-Claude Piris former director general of the Council of the EU's legal service when a question was put to him concerning "Can the von der Leyen Commission start work without a British member?".... in which his reply was "Yes...…….There will be no "earthquake" if London fails to nominate a commissioner"
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:18 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

quite a lot of assumptions, so I have difficulty believe your statements yet again.


I haven't made an assumption, I'm going on the Jean-Claude Piris former director general of the Council of the EU's legal service when a question was put to him concerning "Can the von der Leyen Commission start work without a British member?".... in which his reply was "Yes...…….There will be no "earthquake" if London fails to nominate a commissioner"


So you say, fine, just give us the link and thus the information so we don't have to take your word for it.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the EU-team forgot about this little detail, or expected the UK not to make a problem about this. I think the former.


They didn't forget, it was in the actual text in which the extension was granted (Paragraph 11 https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/XT-20024-2019-REV-2/en/pdf). However, if you read the paragraph it's contructed in a way that it is legally correct, but also ensures that the UK doesn't interfere with EU decisions. Moreover, the EU Commission already has legal advice which says that it can proceed with its task if it asked for a name ( https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/uk-set-to-backtrack-and-pick-an-eu-commissioner/ ). If the article is correct, and thus the UK does intend to provide a name, this action can only be seen in light of the legal advice it has been given. The Commission asks for a name and announces legal action against the UK, thus paving the way to continue with its duties as of December 1st. If the EU and UK let this drag on fro a long as they can, Brexit already happened before it comes to the application hearings for any new UK Commissioner. Everybody will be happy and no harm has been done.

BTW I wonder how you can accuse EU bureaucrats from missing a detail. They never do this, they're, unfortunately, very good in catching all the details (hence why it always takes so long to change something).


I don't think the UK will leave on 31st of January, if it will leave at all, it will take at least till July or August 2020 to organize an orderly Brexit, can't be done in a month.


Making an assumption are we ;)

Until the composition of the new parliament is known its a statement that cant be relied on. there are a number of scenarios which will determine what will happen before the new exit day in 7 weeks after the election result is know, Johnson could have a majority or he could form a minority government the same could be said of Corbyn. there could be to many seats to call and go into recount who knows. I'm certainly not going assume what going to happen.

But one thing you are mistaking is an orderly exit in that 7 weeks is not the issue as if say Johnson does form a majority government the issue is getting the Withdrawal agreement passed in both Parliaments (UK/EU) as I am now making an assumption that if Johnson has a majority he will not ask for another extension, but we all know if Corbyn gets in it will be more uncertainty for at least a minimum 6 months.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

quite a lot of assumptions, so I have difficulty believe your statements yet again.


I haven't made an assumption, I'm going on the Jean-Claude Piris former director general of the Council of the EU's legal service when a question was put to him concerning "Can the von der Leyen Commission start work without a British member?".... in which his reply was "Yes...…….There will be no "earthquake" if London fails to nominate a commissioner"


So you say, fine, just give us the link and thus the information so we don't have to take your word for it.


Here you go:

https://www.politico.eu/article/faq-the ... der-leyen/


In the same link its also said the European Council could also make a formal decision to reduce the number of commissioners, which is legally shown here:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32013D0272

So its no big deal on the EU part. At one point that is what the EU wanted to do(reduce the number of commissioners) but it was Ireland that put up a stink about it and it remained in place
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:01 pm

A101 wrote:
Making an assumption are we ;)

Until the composition of the new parliament is known its a statement that cant be relied on. there are a number of scenarios which will determine what will happen before the new exit day in 7 weeks after the election result is know, Johnson could have a majority or he could form a minority government the same could be said of Corbyn. there could be to many seats to call and go into recount who knows. I'm certainly not going assume what going to happen.

But one thing you are mistaking is an orderly exit in that 7 weeks is not the issue as if say Johnson does form a majority government the issue is getting the Withdrawal agreement passed in both Parliaments (UK/EU) as I am now making an assumption that if Johnson has a majority he will not ask for another extension, but we all know if Corbyn gets in it will be more uncertainty for at least a minimum 6 months.


Seven weeks is not much time to get the current deal passed with the two chambers in the UK, passed in EU Parlemaints, and after that, getting all legislation through Parlaimnets needed. If you want a good debate about the consequences of this and the laws, then is seven weeks not much and after that, the civil servants need to implement it and making provisions in the infrastructure, digital and in real life, to make a smooth transition possible. So yeah, it is an assumption that it can't be done in seven weeks, but I think it is rooted in estimates of the political procedure and the aftermath of that. My assumption is it will take at least 6 months, if it will be based on the current deal.
So your assumption is that they could make that timeframe for an orderly Brexit.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Making an assumption are we ;)

Until the composition of the new parliament is known its a statement that cant be relied on. there are a number of scenarios which will determine what will happen before the new exit day in 7 weeks after the election result is know, Johnson could have a majority or he could form a minority government the same could be said of Corbyn. there could be to many seats to call and go into recount who knows. I'm certainly not going assume what going to happen.

But one thing you are mistaking is an orderly exit in that 7 weeks is not the issue as if say Johnson does form a majority government the issue is getting the Withdrawal agreement passed in both Parliaments (UK/EU) as I am now making an assumption that if Johnson has a majority he will not ask for another extension, but we all know if Corbyn gets in it will be more uncertainty for at least a minimum 6 months.


Seven weeks is not much time to get the current deal passed with the two chambers in the UK, passed in EU Parlemaints, and after that, getting all legislation through Parlaimnets needed. If you want a good debate about the consequences of this and the laws, then is seven weeks not much and after that, the civil servants need to implement it and making provisions in the infrastructure, digital and in real life, to make a smooth transition possible. So yeah, it is an assumption that it can't be done in seven weeks, but I think it is rooted in estimates of the political procedure and the aftermath of that. My assumption is it will take at least 6 months, if it will be based on the current deal.
So your assumption is that they could make that timeframe for an orderly Brexit.


They have got seven weeks to pass the WA if not we leave without a deal (if Johnson gets back in), civil servants cant do anything until its law, the orderly exit is to happen in the transition period as agreed in the WA
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:34 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Making an assumption are we ;)

Until the composition of the new parliament is known its a statement that cant be relied on. there are a number of scenarios which will determine what will happen before the new exit day in 7 weeks after the election result is know, Johnson could have a majority or he could form a minority government the same could be said of Corbyn. there could be to many seats to call and go into recount who knows. I'm certainly not going assume what going to happen.

But one thing you are mistaking is an orderly exit in that 7 weeks is not the issue as if say Johnson does form a majority government the issue is getting the Withdrawal agreement passed in both Parliaments (UK/EU) as I am now making an assumption that if Johnson has a majority he will not ask for another extension, but we all know if Corbyn gets in it will be more uncertainty for at least a minimum 6 months.


Seven weeks is not much time to get the current deal passed with the two chambers in the UK, passed in EU Parlemaints, and after that, getting all legislation through Parlaimnets needed. If you want a good debate about the consequences of this and the laws, then is seven weeks not much and after that, the civil servants need to implement it and making provisions in the infrastructure, digital and in real life, to make a smooth transition possible. So yeah, it is an assumption that it can't be done in seven weeks, but I think it is rooted in estimates of the political procedure and the aftermath of that. My assumption is it will take at least 6 months, if it will be based on the current deal.
So your assumption is that they could make that timeframe for an orderly Brexit.


They have got seven weeks to pass the WA if not we leave without a deal (if Johnson gets back in), civil servants cant do anything until its law, the orderly exit is to happen in the transition period as agreed in the WA


Additional legislation is needed in the case the WA is passed to have an orderly exit, it is not just the WA. Not passing the legislation will equal a hard Brexit. But you know this, or ought to know this. Seven weeks is way to short to sort things out.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Seven weeks is not much time to get the current deal passed with the two chambers in the UK, passed in EU Parlemaints, and after that, getting all legislation through Parlaimnets needed. If you want a good debate about the consequences of this and the laws, then is seven weeks not much and after that, the civil servants need to implement it and making provisions in the infrastructure, digital and in real life, to make a smooth transition possible. So yeah, it is an assumption that it can't be done in seven weeks, but I think it is rooted in estimates of the political procedure and the aftermath of that. My assumption is it will take at least 6 months, if it will be based on the current deal.
So your assumption is that they could make that timeframe for an orderly Brexit.


They have got seven weeks to pass the WA if not we leave without a deal (if Johnson gets back in), civil servants cant do anything until its law, the orderly exit is to happen in the transition period as agreed in the WA


Additional legislation is needed in the case the WA is passed to have an orderly exit, it is not just the WA. Not passing the legislation will equal a hard Brexit. But you know this, or ought to know this. Seven weeks is way to short to sort things out.


I think you are talking about legislation to repeal the European Communities Act 1972; if so that’s actully already passed and automatically comes into affect on Exit Day


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... ts/enacted
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:02 am

LJ wrote:
Does the EU really want the UK to appoint a commissioner? The only reason why they make a fuss about this issue is because they want to prevent that it can have negative legal consequences if they don't do this. Or do you really expect that any UK commissioner will be accepted by the EU Parliament? I don't.

Exactly! This whole thing is a very minor issue. But of course the EU must point fingers at every violation of the Treaty.

For 40+ years the UK always wanted special treatment, and only God knows what can still happen to UK membership. We can all hope for a final Brexit by January, but anything can still happen. There is no guarantee that we have seen the last extension. And we should not prepare for the situation that in a future situation the UK points out that they can violate the Treaty again because nobody protested when they did so in November 2019.

It is in fact an impossible situation. Nobody in his/her right mind would today accept the job as UK Commissioner in Brussels. If I happened to be British, and I was forced today to become an EU Commissioner, then I would seriously consider suicide. At least there isn't money enough in the whole world to make me volunteer for that job. :irked:
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:40 am

prebennorholm wrote:
It is in fact an impossible situation. Nobody in his/her right mind would today accept the job as UK Commissioner in Brussels. If I happened to be British, and I was forced today to become an EU Commissioner, then I would seriously consider suicide. At least there isn't money enough in the whole world to make me volunteer for that job. :irked:


Actually, what can you loose? It's probably paying well and you've nothing to do for it (apart from ensuring that you get through the hearings). In addition, you can extend your network. The only downside may be that it becomes a real job should the UK wanting to delay Brexit for a linfer period.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm

The normal (and I realize that is an oxymoronical assumption here and these days) is to appoint a person respected by the government and by the EU with the understanding that they generally will be present and listening in meetings, avoiding voting and most matters of substance.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

They have got seven weeks to pass the WA if not we leave without a deal (if Johnson gets back in), civil servants cant do anything until its law, the orderly exit is to happen in the transition period as agreed in the WA


Additional legislation is needed in the case the WA is passed to have an orderly exit, it is not just the WA. Not passing the legislation will equal a hard Brexit. But you know this, or ought to know this. Seven weeks is way to short to sort things out.


I think you are talking about legislation to repeal the European Communities Act 1972; if so that’s actully already passed and automatically comes into affect on Exit Day


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... ts/enacted


No, if there will be a different regime in mainland UK and Northern Ireland, probably a lot of things will need to be taken care of, the same as your treasured "UK wants its own trade deals form day 1", a lot of things will need to be taken care of. That was the whole thing before 31st of October, vote for the deal, but against all other things and you still have a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Additional legislation is needed in the case the WA is passed to have an orderly exit, it is not just the WA. Not passing the legislation will equal a hard Brexit. But you know this, or ought to know this. Seven weeks is way to short to sort things out.


I think you are talking about legislation to repeal the European Communities Act 1972; if so that’s actully already passed and automatically comes into affect on Exit Day


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... ts/enacted


No, if there will be a different regime in mainland UK and Northern Ireland, probably a lot of things will need to be taken care of, the same as your treasured "UK wants its own trade deals form day 1", a lot of things will need to be taken care of. That was the whole thing before 31st of October, vote for the deal, but against all other things and you still have a hard Brexit.


:roll: :roll:


Of course, things will be different if there is a change of government and depending on what the outcome is Corbyn will either get into bed with the LibDem’s or govern outright. Which means he seeks a new deal with the EU or by pressure from the LibDems revoke A50, neither require Parliamentary legislation but extension needs EU approval. If he makes a new deal with the EU and goes to referenda, he then needs to pass legislation for that to happen and that does not need to happen by 31st January, but as was the same as Johnson then legislation for whatever outcome comes of the referenda needs to happen by the new new Exit Day except for revoking A50 unless Gina Miller goes to court to get Parliament ok to do that.

If on the other hand the shoe is on the other foot and Johnson either governs outright or has to form a government with another party, he basically has two choices its either get the WA passed thru both Parliament by the 31st Jan and that’s the only legislation he needs to pass by that date or come 11pm 31st January 2020 (Exit Day) and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 automatically comes into effect as I said previously.

Oh, and buy the way no legislation for Future trade deals need to be passed by the 31st January 2020 as we are in the transition period under the terms of the WA which ends on the 31st December 2020. So, the legislation needed for a trade deal between the UK/EU needs to be completed by then unless both the UK/EU agrees to an extension. We either trade on the new agreement or on WTO terms.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Fine? The EU wants the UK to comply with EU rules as long as they are a member. So the EU wants the UK to name a commissioner, otherwise, all rules issued by the commission might be invalided.

Why should the EU suffer - actually more than they already do - from indecision on the UK side? Again, with this, you insist to export your internal problems, first with Ireland and now this.

So what do you suggest the EU does in this situation? Nothing and just sit there until the UK decides what to do? The UK aint that important my friend.

How do you explain the UK PM being excluded from some EU leader meetings after Article 50 was filed, or the EU allowing TM to decline UK's turn of head of one body?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:00 pm

I have been thinking about my last past in regards to revoke:

The ECJ ruled that: "Revocation must be decided following a democratic process in accordance with national constitutional requirements." As Article 50 is now law from the precedent of the Miller case at the Supreme Court it only stands an Act of Parliament is needed to revoke said law. Another hung parliament could in theory disrupt this process.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:31 pm

But it looks like "Leave" will win with a healthy margin and the UK will be out at the end of 2020.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:35 pm

seahawk wrote:
But it looks like "Leave" will win with a healthy margin and the UK will be out at the end of 2020.


I’m not taking anything for granted and do not look at the polls, the only result I look at is the end result
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:56 am

The thread was on the 2nd page !

I have a question for Brexiters. Many brexiters have voted like that due to xenophobia, or it has at least participated in their vote. I'm not saying it's any of you, I hope you will agree with me that it played a role.

As a result of Brexit, EU citizens are leaving the UK, more will probably leave.

Consequently, since the Tories have never been against immigration, despite sometimes pretending differently, there will be an influx of more "traditional" immigrants, from former British colonies => mostly brown people (said without any ill intent).

How will the xenophobes react to that ? Will we see the far right in power some time in the future as a result ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:01 am

Aesma wrote:
The thread was on the 2nd page !

I have a question for Brexiters. Many brexiters have voted like that due to xenophobia, or it has at least participated in their vote. I'm not saying it's any of you, I hope you will agree with me that it played a role.

As a result of Brexit, EU citizens are leaving the UK, more will probably leave.

Consequently, since the Tories have never been against immigration, despite sometimes pretending differently, there will be an influx of more "traditional" immigrants, from former British colonies => mostly brown people (said without any ill intent).

How will the xenophobes react to that ? Will we see the far right in power some time in the future as a result ?


It's kind of funny because neither Labour nor the Tories will put a target number on net immigration. I guess they don't want to be held accountable when they fail miserably to meet the target.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:42 pm

Well, if Corbyn is crushed in december, there is maybe a chance that the next labour leader to be a bit more centrist and charismatic for more people.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Olddog wrote:
Well, if Corbyn is crushed in december, there is maybe a chance that the next labour leader to be a bit more centrist and charismatic for more people.


Many Labour politicians are more centrist than the current Corbyn/McDonnell/McClusky axis. A dead tortoise would have more charisma!

If Labour does badly at the election it’s difficult to see how the current leadership could survive. The fact Labour is not trouncing the Tories in the polls is a sad indictment of its leadership.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
If Labour does badly at the election it’s difficult to see how the current leadership could survive. The fact Labour is not trouncing the Tories in the polls is a sad indictment of its leadership.


My wife said the other day that Corbyn is messing it up - I pointed out that Corbyn hasn't really done anything wrong in this campaign so far... people just seem to hate him for no definable reason. (I am not a Labour supporter, by the way.)

The polls show that all the Conservative goverment members can be proven to lie, cheat, lie, stab you in the back and lie again for good measure yet somehow people still prefer them!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:10 am

The Tories always had a strong anti-European wing, the Tories made the referendum happen, the Tories have no choice but to be for Brexit now, there is no difficulty there for them. Making Brexit work, that will be another story.

Labour isn't on the same boat, so to me having a neutral stance is fine and honourable. Corbyn lacks charisma and isn't facing May anymore, that's the main issue.

Also, UK media is hopelessly biased, it's horrible to watch. Even Channel 4 that is trying to be balanced can't manage it, never really pushing the Tories, but harping on things like antisemitism in the Labour party, letting the blatant racism of the Tories slide.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
The thread was on the 2nd page !

I have a question for Brexiters. Many brexiters have voted like that due to xenophobia, or it has at least participated in their vote. I'm not saying it's any of you, I hope you will agree with me that it played a role.

As a result of Brexit, EU citizens are leaving the UK, more will probably leave.

Consequently, since the Tories have never been against immigration, despite sometimes pretending differently, there will be an influx of more "traditional" immigrants, from former British colonies => mostly brown people (said without any ill intent).

How will the xenophobes react to that ? Will we see the far right in power some time in the future as a result ?

Is this really an issue, unless Project Fear was totally inaccurate, they stated that the UK has more immigration from the former colonies than from the EU.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:40 pm

Missing in this discussion is what will happen after brexit.

EU27 seems to get closer ties with china, japan. China get rail links with for example germany, and japan got FTA in major was the knife in the back on UK car industry.

India also seems much closer to get a FTA with EU after Brexit because of UK demanding restrictions on proffessionals - engineers to Europe.
EU seems to accept this for exportingbmore something that UK never would accept.

UK will get very close to US. Often against interests of china, and again close to commonwealth countries with white population.

Any thoughts?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:29 pm

UK will get very close to US
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:34 pm

UK will get very close to US


UK hopes. Reality, US companies will have to abandon UK as the door to the EU. EU will always be able to offer more to the US than the UK on any trade deals. It is difficult to see the UK as anything other than a mendicant.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:26 am

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The thread was on the 2nd page !

I have a question for Brexiters. Many brexiters have voted like that due to xenophobia, or it has at least participated in their vote. I'm not saying it's any of you, I hope you will agree with me that it played a role.

As a result of Brexit, EU citizens are leaving the UK, more will probably leave.

Consequently, since the Tories have never been against immigration, despite sometimes pretending differently, there will be an influx of more "traditional" immigrants, from former British colonies => mostly brown people (said without any ill intent).

How will the xenophobes react to that ? Will we see the far right in power some time in the future as a result ?

Is this really an issue, unless Project Fear was totally inaccurate, they stated that the UK has more immigration from the former colonies than from the EU.


From this graph : https://youtu.be/stk5ueSULEU?t=564

It was close, with EU net migration above non-EU one. Now EU net migration has gone sharply down, and non-EU significantly up.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:54 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Reality, US companies will have to abandon UK as the door to the EU.


You're going to have to explain how US companies have used the UK "as the door to the EU" since the UK is (currently) part of the EU.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:17 am

He means that the UK is easier to set up in than say Poland for US companies, for language, culture, quality of life, etc., yet it's in the EU so once based there you are in the single market.

This will no longer be the case after Brexit.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:58 pm

This sums up the whole Brexit debate perfectly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
SueD
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:33 pm

[list=][/list]
scbriml wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Well, if Corbyn is crushed in december, there is maybe a chance that the next labour leader to be a bit more centrist and charismatic for more people.


Many Labour politicians are more centrist than the current Corbyn/McDonnell/McClusky axis. A dead tortoise would have more charisma!

If Labour does badly at the election it’s difficult to see how the current leadership could survive. The fact Labour is not trouncing the Tories in the polls is a sad indictment of its leadership.


Very much agreed on that score . UK well English politics and democracy and the liberal economic model is in total disarray.

Labour a party founded on equally and tolerance scarred by Antisemitism accusations (whilst the far right is quietly looking on far more sinisterly)- Corbyns so called neutrality on prime issues is shockingly naive (well intentioned or otherwise)


Conservative the natural home of liberal market driven economics and in many ways the inspiration for the single market . Now so split on those genuinely beneficial things delivered to all citizens including freedom of movement .
Oh and a silently malingering core of Islamaphobia and incidental racism.

Only the liberals appear to have anything of a clear stance .

As for Farige a loonie of the highest order and a dangerous one especially for the lower classes he deliberately encourages.
His views on domestic issues social welfare the NHS and indeed immigrants are pretty terrifying imho.
Truly more Anti Semitic !

The country is in a schism likened only to the reformation imho

Also split city and rurally even worse.
The large metropolitan areas continue to favour Remaining whilst the rural areas Leave .

Yet we have a general election upon us and frankly the real noise which should on how the UK delivers public services , defence , security, implements tax and spending , National infrastructure and racism is silenced !

In the words of a News night guest terrified BUT NOT FOR HIS REASONS

I am a life long voter never missed a General Election since my 18th , continue to have views and aspirations for a fairer and more inclusive society for ALL yet right now none of the parties show me any confidence that they have the tools people or indeed virtues to come even close .

THE B word is a calamity, that said those northern eastern English and South Wales towns and villages (many that are actually beneficiaries of EU money) quarms are more the UK centralist political system of decades and are structurally are hard indeed impossible to resolve anytime soon. Exiting the largest economic markets just to reduce a few tens of thousands of fellow Europeans having the ability to work (spend and pay taxes) here can only make things a magnitude worse for many years ahead imho.

Think I’ll lie down in a darkened room for while.

Still be using my franchise though
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
This sums up the whole Brexit debate perfectly.


LOL.

As soon as I saw and heard that pompous prat spouting his rude and arrogant nonsense, you could *tell* that he thoroughly deserved a comeback like that.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This sums up the whole Brexit debate perfectly.


It's also why you should never attack a person personally without knowing everything of the person you're attacking. I can't believe someone makes such a basic mistake at that level.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:23 pm

Brexit party MEPs might be MEPs but they have no "level", donkeys could be elected on that list (have been ?).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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