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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:43 am

Arion640 wrote:
Just 335 hours.

Time to go. Britain to the world.


Unfortunately, you are right, I am curious where Britain is going to go to if it leaves this world. I am sure you don't mean what you are writing here, but it is funny as hell, keep up making these kinds of mistakes, at least they somewhat entertain me :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:58 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:


Brexit will result in Uk having a more outward view across the spectrum of government function, with being entangled to EU politics, regulatory and economic matters for far too long. One only has to look at the economic transformation of many of the commonwealth nations whom were dependent on the UK for majority of it exports to the UK, post 73 when the UK joined the EEC/EU the Australian, New Zealand and Canadian economies transformed after a period of adjustment. The UK to will go through a period of adjustment and we will be all the better for it.


It doesn’t really matter where you actually place on total size of the economy growth is where the real heart of the matter is, if you look at the the economy’s that have the highest growth according to the IMF it’s not who you think it’s is and they do not register on the top ten economy of the world. Who would think that Libya,Rwanda, Bangladesh and Ethiopia would registrar as the top four nations for economic growth over likes of China the US and the EU, the biggest economy in the world didn’t even make the top ten for highest GDP growth in up till October 2019


Problem with your argument is that a 1% growth for UK represent something like £25bn, but this same value would represent roughly a 10% increase for Bangladesh, 33% for Ethipia, 50% for Lybia and… 300% for Rwanda. It's just far easier to have big economic growth figure when you starting from a very, very low position.

Just to have an idea, what kind of transformation of the UK economy are you expecting ?



Its all comparative as growth is measured from the base line of the size of the economy from which it is derived from, It’s not measured by actual monetary value. The way you have posted is comparing a combination of Gross Domestic Production & Gross National Income which are distinctively different measures.

The Chinese & EU economy overall are the top two, China just posted there rate at 6.1% compared to the expected rate of the EU at 1.5%


Of course, growth in % is this way. But that doesn't change the fact it's easier to achieve a 10% growth in a $50bn economy than in a $2600bn, like you wanted to compare.

But what about the UK economic transformation Brexit will enable ? Don't you want to elaborate on this ?
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:09 am

The problem with a revolt against imaginary oppression is that you end up with imaginary freedom.

A101 wrote:
you seem to forget that whenever US/UK foreign policy converges the UK has always supported the US even whilst being a member of the EU and while the majority disagreed.

That worked out so wonderfully in Iraq, didn't it? :roll:

A101 wrote:
Smaller nations do and have stood up for their own interests ahead of whatever the US or for that matter the EU try to push for

Said like somebody is completely oblivious to the TPP.....
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:16 am

So in an astonishing parallel to Brexit itself, the Brexiteers were much too disorganised to get Big Ben to do a Big Brexit Bong on Brexit night and instead they get a couple of lights instead.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51149538

Or maybe they decided that the Brexit Bash with a Booming Bong of Big Ben at 11PM local time might just be representative of things running to Brussels timing.
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ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:13 am

Seems like some in the UK want to celebrate Guy Hawks Day early this year with bell ringings and fireworks.Guy Hawks Day celebrates an attempted and failed terrorist attack on the Parliament to overthrow it. Brexit celebrates a non-violent overthrow of the long relationship of the UK with the EU for similar wrong-headed reasoning and Guy Hawks tried to do.

A divorce, like Brexit, is nothing to celebrate, it is about a failure of a relationship or perhaps acknowledging that the relationship shouldn't have happened, a too selfish partner, one changing too much or perhaps too demanding of attention. The tabloids love to stir up controversy and to attract buyers of their newspaper or web access first, not be real reporters of news. They are getting a few days of a shot to the government, promoting the 'Big Ben Bell ringing' on the moment of 'independence' (much like the USA did when we told England to f-off in 1776) apparently not happening due to costs and the shutdown for the current repairs.Sure, make a big deal of a bell ringing rather than discuss the real issues and affects of Brexit, although it we don't know what will happen yet. Same with the 'Megexit', that while a significant change as to the Royal Family, is played up in the worst way, with bad 'guys' (in that a woman) to sell newspapers, not what is best for the country and them as well as a distraction from the real problems Brexit will bring few want to discuss.

I expect the economic and other changes from Brexit to be fodder for the tabloids and even the mainstream newspapers for months to come. A lot of heat but no light, bringing out the worst affects of Brexit to the real people, from loss of jobs and slowing of trade, to a hostile side taking we haven't seen since WWII. Wait until the transition agreement concludes and many will curse Brexit.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:27 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Problem with your argument is that a 1% growth for UK represent something like £25bn, but this same value would represent roughly a 10% increase for Bangladesh, 33% for Ethipia, 50% for Lybia and… 300% for Rwanda. It's just far easier to have big economic growth figure when you starting from a very, very low position.

Just to have an idea, what kind of transformation of the UK economy are you expecting ?



Its all comparative as growth is measured from the base line of the size of the economy from which it is derived from, It’s not measured by actual monetary value. The way you have posted is comparing a combination of Gross Domestic Production & Gross National Income which are distinctively different measures.

The Chinese & EU economy overall are the top two, China just posted there rate at 6.1% compared to the expected rate of the EU at 1.5%


Of course, growth in % is this way. But that doesn't change the fact it's easier to achieve a 10% growth in a $50bn economy than in a $2600bn, like you wanted to compare.

But what about the UK economic transformation Brexit will enable ? Don't you want to elaborate on this ?


No it’s not GDP is a measurement on how the economy is performing overall using a % of the baseline of economy size. Actually using a % means a level the playing field to gauge a nations economic performance. Your definition of measuring monetary value is like measuring dick size in the play ground.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:44 am

par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51157933

I don't understand what Javid is talking about, Japanese car manufacturers having found success without following EU rules. All cars sold in the EU follow EU rules, just like all cars sold in the US follow US rules. Manufacturers selling in both try to make cars that follow both set of rules at the same time, with as few modifications needed as possible.

If Javid's plan is to make rules specific for UK cars, well, that's utterly stupid. For starters, there are no significant British car manufacturer ! The small manufacturers there are, already make cars that are almost impossible to export, because they don't follow any standard.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:54 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:


Its all comparative as growth is measured from the base line of the size of the economy from which it is derived from, It’s not measured by actual monetary value. The way you have posted is comparing a combination of Gross Domestic Production & Gross National Income which are distinctively different measures.

The Chinese & EU economy overall are the top two, China just posted there rate at 6.1% compared to the expected rate of the EU at 1.5%


Of course, growth in % is this way. But that doesn't change the fact it's easier to achieve a 10% growth in a $50bn economy than in a $2600bn, like you wanted to compare.

But what about the UK economic transformation Brexit will enable ? Don't you want to elaborate on this ?


No it’s not GDP is a measurement on how the economy is performing overall using a % of the baseline of economy size. Actually using a % means a level the playing field to gauge a nations economic performance. Your definition of measuring monetary value is like measuring dick size in the play ground.


Look, create a $1bn business in Rwanda and the same in UK, don't you agree the effect on GDP growth will be higher in Rwanda ?

Anyway... No answer on the UK economic transformation ? That's a shame because I find this topic much more interesting, what Brexiters want to achieve with Brexit?
A101 wrote:
Brexit will result in Uk having a more outward view across the spectrum of government function, with being entangled to EU politics, regulatory and economic matters for far too long. One only has to look at the economic transformation of many of the commonwealth nations whom were dependent on the UK for majority of it exports to the UK, post 73 when the UK joined the EEC/EU the Australian, New Zealand and Canadian economies transformed after a period of adjustment. The UK to will go through a period of adjustment and we will be all the better for it.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:17 pm

Uk government now says that uk manufactoringing will be hit while rulesbwill be different uk EU. But the fault is on manufactoring while they have got 3 years to adjust :-)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89506.html

So while the difference of rules and the impact has been discussed here at A.net do the rest of brexiteers here agrees to uk government new oppinion?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:21 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?


Number of EU citizens wanting to stay in the UK after Brexit. Even if they are married to UK citizens and have children, life in the EU will be better than in the UK. Jobs will be higher paying, environment will be better, citizen rights will be protected, jobs will be leaving the UK for the EU, food quality will be better and a host of other features which they are / were being advised about by the EU on a daily basis and have been since before the Brexit vote in 2016.

So is this the UK government making up numbers or are there actually over 2 million EU citizens who are willing to tough it out with those UK citizens who cannot leave?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:54 pm

olle wrote:
Uk government now says that uk manufactoringing will be hit while rulesbwill be different uk EU. But the fault is on manufactoring while they have got 3 years to adjust :-)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89506.html

So while the difference of rules and the impact has been discussed here at A.net do the rest of brexiteers here agrees to uk government new oppinion?


I didn't comment on that bit but it's also baffling. UK manufacturing had 3 years to adjust to what exactly ? The UK is still 100% aligned with the EU. What rules is the government planning to change, to which UK manufacturing will then have to adapt to (or exit the UK market) ?

How can one be for Brexit when this is the kind of politicians who are advocating for it ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51157933

I don't understand what Javid is talking about, Japanese car manufacturers having found success without following EU rules. All cars sold in the EU follow EU rules, just like all cars sold in the US follow US rules. Manufacturers selling in both try to make cars that follow both set of rules at the same time, with as few modifications needed as possible.


Or in some cases, they make specific models for developing countries without following either.

Like the famous 4.000$ Renault Kwid.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/12579 ... la-model-3
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:14 pm

Yes. And indeed Japan has its own local cars that meet local rules, like the Kei cars, I think they sell them elsewhere in Asia but not sure. I can't imagine what kind of rules the UK would devise that wouldn't follow EU rules though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:15 pm

Aesma wrote:
If Javid's plan is to make rules specific for UK cars, well, that's utterly stupid. For starters, there are no significant British car manufacturer ! The small manufacturers there are, already make cars that are almost impossible to export, because they don't follow any standard.


Well I look forwards to UK law being changed so that cars don't need airbags or crumple-zones. I don't need the oppressive EU telling me what safety features my car should have!
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olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51157933

I don't understand what Javid is talking about, Japanese car manufacturers having found success without following EU rules. All cars sold in the EU follow EU rules, just like all cars sold in the US follow US rules. Manufacturers selling in both try to make cars that follow both set of rules at the same time, with as few modifications needed as possible.

If Javid's plan is to make rules specific for UK cars, well, that's utterly stupid. For starters, there are no significant British car manufacturer ! The small manufacturers there are, already make cars that are almost impossible to export, because they don't follow any standard.


Japan invested in uk based manufactoring in order to get it inside EU.

With the new FTA EU Japan and UK not inside EU, not complying to EU rules uk car manufactoring needs some luck. 2030 might be the year when UK lokking back at car manufactoring like 1990 was for coal.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:53 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?


Number of EU citizens wanting to stay in the UK after Brexit. Even if they are married to UK citizens and have children, life in the EU will be better than in the UK. Jobs will be higher paying, environment will be better, citizen rights will be protected, jobs will be leaving the UK for the EU, food quality will be better and a host of other features which they are / were being advised about by the EU on a daily basis and have been since before the Brexit vote in 2016.

So is this the UK government making up numbers or are there actually over 2 million EU citizens who are willing to tough it out with those UK citizens who cannot leave?


Today many people from poland in uk consider moving back to poland because increasing salaries in poland and decreasing salaries in uk considering the weaker pound.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:54 pm

Did we already discuss the EU slideck outlining EUs negotiation process

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/seminar-20200114-lpf_en.pdf
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51133846

Anyway even more interseting (though will be dismissed by some as it's ccoming from the BBC). The again, Brexiteers argue that Britain can also be tough (though with 4 though people in the world I wonder what willa ctually happen). My personal take is that this part is spot on and that the UK risks being the victim of a triangualar trade war by words. The again, a true Brexiteer will say that this will open up possibilityies be become the "mediator" (always look on the bright side).

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51143023
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:53 pm

LJ wrote:
Did we already discuss the EU slideck outlining EUs negotiation process

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/seminar-20200114-lpf_en.pdf
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51133846

Anyway even more interseting (though will be dismissed by some as it's ccoming from the BBC). The again, Brexiteers argue that Britain can also be tough (though with 4 though people in the world I wonder what willa ctually happen). My personal take is that this part is spot on and that the UK risks being the victim of a triangualar trade war by words. The again, a true Brexiteer will say that this will open up possibilityies be become the "mediator" (always look on the bright side).

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51143023



How it is possible that there is not 4 players! BBC is lying! China, USA, EU and of course UK!!!!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:01 pm

olle wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Numbers of what ?


Number of EU citizens wanting to stay in the UK after Brexit. Even if they are married to UK citizens and have children, life in the EU will be better than in the UK. Jobs will be higher paying, environment will be better, citizen rights will be protected, jobs will be leaving the UK for the EU, food quality will be better and a host of other features which they are / were being advised about by the EU on a daily basis and have been since before the Brexit vote in 2016.

So is this the UK government making up numbers or are there actually over 2 million EU citizens who are willing to tough it out with those UK citizens who cannot leave?


Today many people from poland in uk consider moving back to poland because increasing salaries in poland and decreasing salaries in uk considering the weaker pound.

Which makes me question whether the 2 million EU citizens signing up to stay in the UK after Brexit is legitimate or the UK government is just blowing smoke.
The only part of the story making the rounds is related to manufacturing, not much about the human side.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:08 pm

par13del wrote:
olle wrote:
par13del wrote:
Number of EU citizens wanting to stay in the UK after Brexit. Even if they are married to UK citizens and have children, life in the EU will be better than in the UK. Jobs will be higher paying, environment will be better, citizen rights will be protected, jobs will be leaving the UK for the EU, food quality will be better and a host of other features which they are / were being advised about by the EU on a daily basis and have been since before the Brexit vote in 2016.

So is this the UK government making up numbers or are there actually over 2 million EU citizens who are willing to tough it out with those UK citizens who cannot leave?


Today many people from poland in uk consider moving back to poland because increasing salaries in poland and decreasing salaries in uk considering the weaker pound.

Which makes me question whether the 2 million EU citizens signing up to stay in the UK after Brexit is legitimate or the UK government is just blowing smoke.
The only part of the story making the rounds is related to manufacturing, not much about the human side.


But the human side of Brittish people living in EU27 or EY27 people living in UK is not concern of Brexiteers. Neither is NI.

Car manufactoring or closing of factories will be becuse that will hit the same English areas that is most pro Brexit.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:10 pm

olle wrote:
But the human side of Brittish people living in EU27 or EY27 people living in UK is not concern of Brexiteers. Neither is NI.

Car manufactoring or closing of factories will be becuse that will hit the same English areas that is most pro Brexit.

If the numbers are accurate it is not about the Brexiters but about some EU citizens who despite all the doom and gloom want to remain in the UK after Brexit while being fully informed by the EU of the dire consequences. As EU citizens - not UK citizens - they can leave at any time, they have a Get Out Of Jail Free card, something which the average UK citizen does not have and will not know their EU rights if any until the negotiations are complete.

We know that the Brexiters lied to the UK population who voted for Brexit, what would be the reason for over 2 million EU citizens, since they were not allowed to vote they most likely did not fall for all the red bus propaganda.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:53 pm

olle wrote:
Uk government now says that uk manufactoringing will be hit while rulesbwill be different uk EU. But the fault is on manufactoring while they have got 3 years to adjust :-)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89506.html

So while the difference of rules and the impact has been discussed here at A.net do the rest of brexiteers here agrees to uk government new oppinion?


Yeah, three years of nonsense and total lack of clarity and it's somehow business' fault they didn't know which rules they will have to follow... AND THEY STILL DON'T!

Coincidentally, I happen to have just been doing some research on EU settled status in the UK for much the same reasons... three years with constantly changing advice on if/what/when/how I am supposed to do anything about it.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:02 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
So are these numbers real or is this the government trying to make things look better than they actually are?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51146992


Numbers of what ?

So is this the UK government making up numbers or are there actually over 2 million EU citizens who are willing to tough it out with those UK citizens who cannot leave?


There is a forum and pressure group called "the Three Million"... If you're middle aged, have lived here a long time, have family here, etc. then it's not so easy to just turn your life upside down - especially when it's still not even clear what's going to happen (it's only a month since the election cemented the 31st of January deadline, don't forget!).

I'm sure a lot of people were hoping the UK would see sense and many will need to see things actually going south before they commit to leave. Who knows, after a short period of pain and chaotic trade negotiations it might all get turned around again...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
Brexit is as big as V-E Day and should be celebrated. So sure Big Ben must Bong! It would be glorious to leave on the 8th May 2020, a fitting 75 years after the end of WW2.

Much more importantly: Will you continue to troll the poor, unsuspecting leavers this way when they're finally out of the EU as you wanted them all along?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:28 pm

par13del wrote:
olle wrote:
But the human side of Brittish people living in EU27 or EY27 people living in UK is not concern of Brexiteers. Neither is NI.

Car manufactoring or closing of factories will be becuse that will hit the same English areas that is most pro Brexit.

If the numbers are accurate it is not about the Brexiters but about some EU citizens who despite all the doom and gloom want to remain in the UK after Brexit while being fully informed by the EU of the dire consequences. As EU citizens - not UK citizens - they can leave at any time, they have a Get Out Of Jail Free card, something which the average UK citizen does not have and will not know their EU rights if any until the negotiations are complete.

We know that the Brexiters lied to the UK population who voted for Brexit, what would be the reason for over 2 million EU citizens, since they were not allowed to vote they most likely did not fall for all the red bus propaganda.



UK people in EU are also allowed to leave when they want to. But first I guess that they get a EU passport first. Suprisingly most senior brexiteers and London finance make sure that their children have EU passport. Why?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:32 am

To the issue of growth rates: This is not a matter of the absolute size of a country's GDP, but much more related to the GDP per citizen and the relative level of development.

The EU is on average pretty close to the peak of development today, so relative growth is of course lower than in countries which have a much lower level of development and still a long way to go catching up.

The thing is just that the slowly growing EU offers orders of magnitude more opportunities for trade and services than third-world countries which are growing quickly, but still on a very low level where trade and business opportunities are far smaller by comparison.

That argument about higher growth rates outside of the EU is one of the typical lies of the Brexit leaders: In reality they're bombing a crater into the UK economy and will then try to sell the difficult climbing back out of that same crater as "fantastic advancement".

The question is how many britons will still believe those lies then.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:25 am

Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Brexit is as big as V-E Day and should be celebrated. So sure Big Ben must Bong! It would be glorious to leave on the 8th May 2020, a fitting 75 years after the end of WW2.

Much more importantly: Will you continue to troll the poor, unsuspecting leavers this way when they're finally out of the EU as you wanted them all along?


One should give people every chance to make their true feelings visible.
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:25 am

olle wrote:
Uk government now says that uk manufactoringing will be hit while rulesbwill be different uk EU. But the fault is on manufactoring while they have got 3 years to adjust :-)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89506.html
So while the difference of rules and the impact has been discussed here at A.net do the rest of brexiteers here agrees to uk government new oppinion?


One could also want to think about all the trade continuation deals UK has signed with dozens of smaller countries around the globe.

In these agreements the terms that UK had with these small countries when it was a member of EU was agreed to be carried over into the time when UK is not a member. However these agreements were signed when May was PM and during that time UK was seen as wanting to continue mirror EU rules to allow seamless trade between UK and EU. Now when this is no longer true and UK wants to diverge from EU rules what do these dozens of smaller countries think about their trade continuation agreements?

I bet many of those have clauses that say that if UK diverges from EU and so cannot have seamless trade with EU at the same time those trade continuation agreements also become null and void. If this does not happen it would be strange situation when UK could use these small countries as a proxy to circumvent the trade difficulties between UK-EU directly by routing the trade via these smaller countries like Norway and Iceland that have more seamless trade to EU than UK has directly.

I bet UK will soon find out that all those trade continuation agreements will be dropped and UK will have hard time negotiating anything with smaller countries that have zero idea what is UK position on anything related to rules and regulations. The clarity that those negotiations need can only come after UK has signed some new agreements with some of the big players like USA, EU or China. That fixed clarity is needed to make it possible that these smaller countries don't have to try to negotiate with somebody that is a complete unknown moving in 10 different directions all at once.

One additional point into this same minefield is for example Japan has been holding out of signing the continuation agreement because for Japan it is very important that japanese car factories in UK can export to EU. Japan will use all its power in Japan-UK trade negotiations trying to make japanese car manufacturers not to suffer losses because of problems at UK-EU border. So no easy japan trade agreement for UK then.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:41 am

Ertro wrote:
olle wrote:
Uk government now says that uk manufactoringing will be hit while rulesbwill be different uk EU. But the fault is on manufactoring while they have got 3 years to adjust :-)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89506.html
So while the difference of rules and the impact has been discussed here at A.net do the rest of brexiteers here agrees to uk government new oppinion?


One could also want to think about all the trade continuation deals UK has signed with dozens of smaller countries around the globe.

In these agreements the terms that UK had with these small countries when it was a member of EU was agreed to be carried over into the time when UK is not a member. However these agreements were signed when May was PM and during that time UK was seen as wanting to continue mirror EU rules to allow seamless trade between UK and EU. Now when this is no longer true and UK wants to diverge from EU rules what do these dozens of smaller countries think about their trade continuation agreements?

I bet many of those have clauses that say that if UK diverges from EU and so cannot have seamless trade with EU at the same time those trade continuation agreements also become null and void. If this does not happen it would be strange situation when UK could use these small countries as a proxy to circumvent the trade difficulties between UK-EU directly by routing the trade via these smaller countries like Norway and Iceland that have more seamless trade to EU than UK has directly.

I bet UK will soon find out that all those trade continuation agreements will be dropped and UK will have hard time negotiating anything with smaller countries that have zero idea what is UK position on anything related to rules and regulations. The clarity that those negotiations need can only come after UK has signed some new agreements with some of the big players like USA, EU or China. That fixed clarity is needed to make it possible that these smaller countries don't have to try to negotiate with somebody that is a complete unknown moving in 10 different directions all at once.

One additional point into this same minefield is for example Japan has been holding out of signing the continuation agreement because for Japan it is very important that japanese car factories in UK can export to EU. Japan will use all its power in Japan-UK trade negotiations trying to make japanese car manufacturers not to suffer losses because of problems at UK-EU border. So no easy japan trade agreement for UK then.


IRC the continuation deals are agreed till end of transition period only.

And using those as a proxy isn't possible due to Rules of Origin... One of the Non Tariff Barrier the Brexiters omit when they gloss about future fantastic no tariff, no quota (+ no dumping, added by EU) FTA.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:57 pm

Ertro wrote:
I bet many of those have clauses that say that if UK diverges from EU and so cannot have seamless trade with EU at the same time those trade continuation agreements also become null and void.

I can see such being included in agreements signed AFTER the 2016 vote, for agreements before I would be surprised if such exist, after all, even the EU never thought anyone would want to leave the bloc. IF the EU never thought of it why would third countries be concerned about a member leaving to include it in their agreements?

I am not saying it is not possible, but I would be surprised post 2016.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:54 pm

par13del wrote:
Ertro wrote:
I bet many of those have clauses that say that if UK diverges from EU and so cannot have seamless trade with EU at the same time those trade continuation agreements also become null and void.

I can see such being included in agreements signed AFTER the 2016 vote, for agreements before I would be surprised if such exist, after all, even the EU never thought anyone would want to leave the bloc. IF the EU never thought of it why would third countries be concerned about a member leaving to include it in their agreements?

I am not saying it is not possible, but I would be surprised post 2016.

Those continuation agreements are only about February 1st to December 31st of 2020 (unless possibly the transition period may get extended after all) because only during the transition period the UK will actually remain compliant with EU rules and regulations, but will already no longer be an EU member.

During the transition phase the EU will still treat the UK as a (now only non-voting!) member state, but after Brexit formally taking effect on February 1st all treaties with external third countries will formally lose effect, so the UK will be dependent on those third countries agreeing to continue as if the UK was still an EU member even though it actually won't be (just an EU-compliant non-member).

That is what those continuation agreements are about, and as mentioned above they only apply to the transition phase but not beyond that.

And new agreements of the UK with those other countries will almost certainly be dependent on the new relationship the UK will have with the EU and those will be limited by the most favoured nation clauses those other countries already have with the EU, so it will be very difficult if not impossible to get any better deals alone.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:25 pm

How are pensions being handled for UK people working for EU companies in Europe, and vice versa EU people working for UK companies in the UK? Will there be some sort of agreement to harmonize someone who had done both? Likewise how will medical care be assured for workers and pensioners who have largely worked in both? Perhaps this is not a problem.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:30 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
How are pensions being handled for UK people working for EU companies in Europe, and vice versa EU people working for UK companies in the UK? Will there be some sort of agreement to harmonize someone who had done both? Likewise how will medical care be assured for workers and pensioners who have largely worked in both? Perhaps this is not a problem.


Retirement pensions are part of the divorce bill hence the payments going to about 2060-70 or sometime like that
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:34 pm

seahawk wrote:
Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Brexit is as big as V-E Day and should be celebrated. So sure Big Ben must Bong! It would be glorious to leave on the 8th May 2020, a fitting 75 years after the end of WW2.

Much more importantly: Will you continue to troll the poor, unsuspecting leavers this way when they're finally out of the EU as you wanted them all along?


One should give people every chance to make their true feelings visible.


I wouldn’t waste your time.

The arrogance, know-it-all-ness from non-experts, cannot be reasoned with.

Let sit back and celebrate the escape from the vile EU.

Love Europe - Hate EU.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:58 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Much more importantly: Will you continue to troll the poor, unsuspecting leavers this way when they're finally out of the EU as you wanted them all along?


One should give people every chance to make their true feelings visible.


I wouldn’t waste your time.

The arrogance, know-it-all-ness from non-experts, cannot be reasoned with.

Let sit back and celebrate the escape from the vile EU.

Love Europe - Hate EU.


As citizen in the EU27 I have been following the hatred of EU and the citizens of EU27. I consider that the hatred and damage created by UK, brexiteers and its press will take a generation to recover from. Business ties will decrease the next 10 years before it comes back to current levels, and they will never be as close as between countries inside EU.

The biggest growth in EU now is within services. The single market for services will be the next big step together with creating a defence sector that can compete with USA based companies. When EU go together it has power and resources, like the example of Airbus.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:22 pm

olle wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

One should give people every chance to make their true feelings visible.


I wouldn’t waste your time.

The arrogance, know-it-all-ness from non-experts, cannot be reasoned with.

Let sit back and celebrate the escape from the vile EU.

Love Europe - Hate EU.


I consider that the hatred and damage created by UK, brexiteers and its press will take a generation to recover from. Business ties will decrease the next 10 years before it comes back to current levels, and they will never be as close as between countries inside EU.


Well we are all entitled to our own opinions and what the tabloids tell us what to think.

Probably best to sit back and lets see what happens.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:10 pm

A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
How are pensions being handled for UK people working for EU companies in Europe, and vice versa EU people working for UK companies in the UK? Will there be some sort of agreement to harmonize someone who had done both? Likewise how will medical care be assured for workers and pensioners who have largely worked in both? Perhaps this is not a problem.


Retirement pensions are part of the divorce bill hence the payments going to about 2060-70 or sometime like that


You`re talking about UK citizens working for the EU and you are right. He is talking about the general public. So unless something is arranged it will be a problem. The UK will be just a third country, just like the Brexiteers like it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:15 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Love Europe - Hate EU.


Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Love Europe - Hate EU.


Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?


Clearly, it's all about 'feelings'.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Love Europe - Hate EU.


Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?


I’ve got no problem with Europeans and vacationing in Europe. I just dislike the political union and the uncontrolled migration to my country.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:52 pm

Klaus wrote:
During the transition phase the EU will still treat the UK as a (now only non-voting!) member state, but after Brexit formally taking effect on February 1st all treaties with external third countries will formally lose effect, so the UK will be dependent on those third countries agreeing to continue as if the UK was still an EU member even though it actually won't be (just an EU-compliant non-member).

Is there a list of treaties with third country ending on february 1st (without continuation)?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
How are pensions being handled for UK people working for EU companies in Europe, and vice versa EU people working for UK companies in the UK? Will there be some sort of agreement to harmonize someone who had done both? Likewise how will medical care be assured for workers and pensioners who have largely worked in both? Perhaps this is not a problem.


Retirement pensions are part of the divorce bill hence the payments going to about 2060-70 or sometime like that


You`re talking about UK citizens working for the EU and you are right. He is talking about the general public. So unless something is arranged it will be a problem. The UK will be just a third country, just like the Brexiteers like it.



What this?

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad

This scheme has been around for ages
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Retirement pensions are part of the divorce bill hence the payments going to about 2060-70 or sometime like that


You`re talking about UK citizens working for the EU and you are right. He is talking about the general public. So unless something is arranged it will be a problem. The UK will be just a third country, just like the Brexiteers like it.



What this?

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad

This scheme has been around for ages



from the website:

There will be no change to the rights and status of EU citizens currently living in the UK until 30 June 2021, or 31 December 2020 if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. You and your family can apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK.


So not all that secure I would say and not part of the divorce bill as you have asserted. The retirement plan for Farage and the like is part of the divorce bill.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You`re talking about UK citizens working for the EU and you are right. He is talking about the general public. So unless something is arranged it will be a problem. The UK will be just a third country, just like the Brexiteers like it.



What this?

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad

This scheme has been around for ages



from the website:

There will be no change to the rights and status of EU citizens currently living in the UK until 30 June 2021, or 31 December 2020 if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. You and your family can apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK.


So not all that secure I would say and not part of the divorce bill as you have asserted. The retirement plan for Farage and the like is part of the divorce bill.


You were talking about state pensions for UK citizens, if you are eligible for a UK state pension on retirement read the link

You can claim State Pension abroad if you’ve paid enough UK National Insurance contributions to qualify.


Make a claim
You must be within 4 months of your State Pension age to claim.

If you live part of the year abroad
You must choose which country you want your pension to be paid in. You cannot be paid in one country for part of the year and another for the rest of the year.



I haven’t read this document because it dosn’ affect me but knock yourself Dutchy

https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... P-7894.pdf
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:55 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
During the transition phase the EU will still treat the UK as a (now only non-voting!) member state, but after Brexit formally taking effect on February 1st all treaties with external third countries will formally lose effect, so the UK will be dependent on those third countries agreeing to continue as if the UK was still an EU member even though it actually won't be (just an EU-compliant non-member).

Is there a list of treaties with third country ending on february 1st (without continuation)?

Strictly speaking the UK will fall out of all treaties held by the EU on February 1st.

The EU is merely recommending external partner countries to still extend coverage to the UK while the UK is a non-voting EU-associated and still EU-compliant country during 2020 but there is nothing the EU can or will do to actually push for that – it's completely voluntary for the partner countries and they may opt to exclude the UK from their EU treaties starting with the formal Brexit date.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:25 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Love Europe - Hate EU.


Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?


I’ve got no problem with Europeans and vacationing in Europe. I just dislike the political union and the uncontrolled migration to my country.


But you are Ok with that half the UK finance sector seems to run their butts of to secure an EU27 passport?

So you mean that it will be OK for EU27 to not allow entry for UK tourists behaving bad and making a mess in EU27?
 
A101
Posts: 1951
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:20 am

olle wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?


I’ve got no problem with Europeans and vacationing in Europe. I just dislike the political union and the uncontrolled migration to my country.


But you are Ok with that half the UK finance sector seems to run their butts of to secure an EU27 passport?



That’s up to an individual personal circumstance


olle wrote:
So you mean that it will be OK for EU27 to not allow entry for UK tourists behaving bad and making a mess in EU27?



That can happen now border security has the power to revoke a visa and send a person packing or prison if they break the laws of the land.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1003
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:45 am

olle wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why do you love Europe and what do you mean by that? What is Europe for you?


I’ve got no problem with Europeans and vacationing in Europe. I just dislike the political union and the uncontrolled migration to my country.


But you are Ok with that half the UK finance sector seems to run their butts of to secure an EU27 passport?

So you mean that it will be OK for EU27 to not allow entry for UK tourists behaving bad and making a mess in EU27?


Absolutely. The laws now would be the same.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:37 am

British minister warns companies about other rules after leaving the EU

The British finance minister Sajid Javid has warned the British business community that the regulations within the United Kingdom after the Brexit will deviate from those of the European Union. He did that in an interview in the Financial Times on Saturday. He emphasized that British companies will have to adjust after the British exit from the EU.

The UK and the EU will enter the next Brexit phase next month: negotiations on a trade agreement between the two parties. Brussels wants the British to continue to adhere to European rules after they leave the bloc, in order to make trade between both parties as smooth as possible. The observance of European rules is also a condition of the EU when negotiating a trade agreement in order to be able to trade tariff and quota free.

The British, however, have no appetite for that, the interview shows. "We will not retain the European rules and we will not be a 'regulator'," says Javid firmly. "We will also not be part of the internal market and the customs union," said the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the function of Javid is officially called in the UK.

The minister's statements show that a new government led by Prime Minister Boris Johnson is not planning to maintain a close trade relationship with the European bloc. Herewith she deviates from earlier plans of the previous government led by Theresa May, who wanted to continue to work closely with the European bloc, in order to minimize the risk of problems at the border, for example.

Representatives of the British business community will not be happy with the minister's statements. In October, representatives from a number of major sectors, including the automotive sector, already warned of the consequences of such a 'hard' Brexit. "Decades of frictionless trade with the UK's largest market, created by thousands of large and small companies, should not just suddenly disappear," said the Head of the Confederation of British Industry in October.


Link

Here we go. So the current UK government doesn't want an easy FTA, so it can't be done in 1 year, so congrats you have your hard Brexit in a year.
 
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:39 am

A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I’ve got no problem with Europeans and vacationing in Europe. I just dislike the political union and the uncontrolled migration to my country.


But you are Ok with that half the UK finance sector seems to run their butts of to secure an EU27 passport?



That’s up to an individual personal circumstance


No responsibility for the BRexitremist, right? But I get it, with your get out of Britain free card.


A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
So you mean that it will be OK for EU27 to not allow entry for UK tourists behaving bad and making a mess in EU27?



That can happen now border security has the power to revoke a visa and send a person packing or prison if they break the laws of the land.


That is now also possible. So basically nothing changes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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