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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:51 pm

zkojq wrote:
gkirk wrote:
The UK as an entity is dead. Freedom for Scotland working with our European family

I hope so buddy. Westminster rule has failed. The case for independence gets stronger by the week.

Olddog wrote:
It is hilarious to read some comments from brexiters here, that dare to talk about vassalage. Ask Scotland, Wales,, NI what that they feel about nationalist England power trip.....


Exactly their lack of self awareness is amazing. The very democratic EU has article 50 allowing members to leave. The United Kingdom has no such official mechanism. Watching the regular bunch of English Nationalist Brexiteers moaning at the top of their voices at how the EU oppresses them whilst also moaning about Scotland not falling in line with what England wants is more than a little ironic. No self awareness there whatsoever unfortunately.


What absolute nonsense. Most Scots are against independence if we go by latest polls. Do you honestly think they will want to turn their backs on a union, they’ve been in for hundreds of years, to join Europe? Of course not.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:15 pm

Barnier in an interesting interview. This together with the USA stance that they will wait until EU UK FTA is more defined shows the strategy UK uses vs EU. Give us what we want or we be a full USA state on the other side of the Atlantic.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 02571.html
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:18 pm

Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:21 pm

olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:24 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
What absolute nonsense. Most Scots are against independence if we go by latest polls. Do you honestly think they will want to turn their backs on a union, they’ve been in for hundreds of years, to join Europe? Of course not.


Why not? Not like England has treated them so nice over the years. And I quite understand that they want to be part of the European Union. They didn't vote to leave it, England did.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:32 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.



That is for Scotland not NI as I understand it. What does GFA says for NI?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:44 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.


Since referenda in the UK are non binding, I don't see what would prevent Scotland to organize one if it wished. I can't imagine BoJo sending the police to stop such an advisory referendum.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:09 pm

When one talks about "zero quota" I hope they mean unlimited or no quota at all? Zero quota would imply nothing, which is obviously not the intention.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51255528

BTW more interesting is that they want to reduce the number of cheap low skilled labour. Thus does this mean that they intend to increase cost for UK companies and thus prices? Though a good thing on paper, one wonders why the companies cannot find someone from the UK doing that job. Or will we see the UK government requiring the unemployed to accept any job offered to replace the cheap low skilled labour from the EU? Or wil they get working permits based on the fact that nobody else wants to do the work?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:22 pm

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.


Since referenda in the UK are non binding, I don't see what would prevent Scotland to organize one if it wished. I can't imagine BoJo sending the police to stop such an advisory referendum.


We would have a similar situation as Spain and Catalonia.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What absolute nonsense. Most Scots are against independence if we go by latest polls. Do you honestly think they will want to turn their backs on a union, they’ve been in for hundreds of years, to join Europe? Of course not.


Why not? Not like England has treated them so nice over the years. And I quite understand that they want to be part of the European Union. They didn't vote to leave it, England did.


LOL

How have we not treated them nice.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:39 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What absolute nonsense. Most Scots are against independence if we go by latest polls. Do you honestly think they will want to turn their backs on a union, they’ve been in for hundreds of years, to join Europe? Of course not.


Why not? Not like England has treated them so nice over the years. And I quite understand that they want to be part of the European Union. They didn't vote to leave it, England did.


LOL

How have we not treated them nice.


By pushing a referendum result on them, for instance. Scotland being out of the EU if they voted out was a major point during the independence referendum, one that swung many votes.

Then the UK proceeded to crash out nevertheless.

Can you blame them for wanting to exercise their sovereignty and take back control?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:24 pm

olle wrote:
If there is a organisation of 450 million people soon 400


Actually >510million, soon around 450million.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:40 pm

olle wrote:
Barnier in an interesting interview. This together with the USA stance that they will wait until EU UK FTA is more defined shows the strategy UK uses vs EU. Give us what we want or we be a full USA state on the other side of the Atlantic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 02571.html


"Good luck with that then!"

Minor detail: An actual US state would gain actual rights, privileges and power within the USA, but the most the UK could hope for would be dependent vassalage without even actual voting rights, most likely below the level of Puerto Rico.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:45 pm

JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why not? Not like England has treated them so nice over the years. And I quite understand that they want to be part of the European Union. They didn't vote to leave it, England did.


LOL

How have we not treated them nice.


By pushing a referendum result on them, for instance. Scotland being out of the EU if they voted out was a major point during the independence referendum, one that swung many votes.

Then the UK proceeded to crash out nevertheless.

Can you blame them for wanting to exercise their sovereignty and take back control?


Hey, they’ve got a devolved government.

They have lots of control.

Just not in the EU.

FIVE DAYS TO GO
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:45 pm

olle wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.

That is for Scotland not NI as I understand it. What does GFA says for NI?

NI effectively has its own referendum (called "border poll") already baked in to the GfA: Once there is evidence that a majority of the population might want re-unification with the Republic of Ireland, the UK government is already committed by the agreement to actually put up such a referendum.

It was one of the stipulations which brought peace to Northern Ireland because it kept the re-unification perspective a reality, not just a faint hope dependent on the mood in Westminster, the way it is for Scotland.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:04 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
The price is the one UK decides to pay, could have decided to stay in SM, in CU, an FTA, remain or even no deal. It always have been UK choice ONLY.

The EU was always looking to extract revenge no matter if an agreement was reached. The EU project isn’t about friends its about interests and all countries act in self intererst

That crazy propaganda may fly in your circles on the island, it just has no connection to reality. The EU has consistently stuck to very clear and solely interest-based positions where such nonsense as "revenge" doesn't play any role at all.

It's actually just called taking responsibility for the consequences of your own choices as any adult should be able to!

But you leavers have been contorting yourselves into all kinds of shapes just to evade even the slightest shred of responsibility for the choices you yourself have been pushing for all this time.

You really need to man up and face the music instead of constantly bleating about the evil EU not letting you eating your cake and still having it, too!

´I’m sure if someone really wanted to look there would be aggressive media reporting about Brexit outside the UK, but the continental media outlets are really not going to promote their own in a negative light.

You keep saying you're "sure" about a lot of things which just aren't true.

Remember it’s those in government and positions of influence also saying things like;
François Hollande
“there must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price to be paid for choosing to leave the EU”

When talking about handing out any extra favours to the UK about Brexit, and by comparison even just the dire consequences of exiting itself are already bad enough and should just not be cushioned by the EU.

An aide of the EU Negotiator and MEP Guy Verhofstadt who said:
“We finally kicked them out. We turned them into a colony – and that was our plan from the first moment.”

That is not Verhofstadt's actual position and this is at best taken out of a sarcastic context.

I could find more but cant be bothered.

"Sure".

Grizzly410 wrote:
The risk, is the one UK decide to take, by doing something no other country did before.

Well there always has to be a first

Said the man and slit his own throat.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:48 pm

You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:50 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.

In short: Scotland doesn't matter, scots should just shut up and do what they're told by a majority in England.

Yeah, and you're still wondering why they want to get away from you...!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:06 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.


It is an internal topic of the UK, the EU has no say if the Scots get a vote or not. That is nice truth about it.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:17 pm

seahawk wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.


It is an internal topic of the UK, the EU has no say if the Scots get a vote or not. That is nice truth about it.

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!

Scotland will of course have to satisfy all the usual conditions, but if they can free themselves they're certainly welcome to start on that path.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:39 pm

olle wrote:
Barnier in an interesting interview. This together with the USA stance that they will wait until EU UK FTA is more defined shows the strategy UK uses vs EU. Give us what we want or we be a full USA state on the other side of the Atlantic.



Good grief, talk about embellishing a story :liar:

The chances of the UK becoming the 51st state of the US is absurd. It has about the exact same chances to happen that New Zealand will become a state of Australia and there are exactly those provisions in the Australian constitution for that to happen.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:51 pm

A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
Barnier in an interesting interview. This together with the USA stance that they will wait until EU UK FTA is more defined shows the strategy UK uses vs EU. Give us what we want or we be a full USA state on the other side of the Atlantic.



Good grief, talk about embellishing a story :liar:

The chances of the UK becoming the 51st state of the US is absurd. It has about the exact same chances to happen that New Zealand will become a state of Australia and there are exactly those provisions in the Australian constitution for that to happen.


of course it is a joke but many brittish people seems to be closer to USA then Europe. Special relationship etc.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:10 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

LOL

How have we not treated them nice.


By pushing a referendum result on them, for instance. Scotland being out of the EU if they voted out was a major point during the independence referendum, one that swung many votes.

Then the UK proceeded to crash out nevertheless.

Can you blame them for wanting to exercise their sovereignty and take back control?


Hey, they’ve got a devolved government.

They have lots of control.

Just not in the EU.

FIVE DAYS TO GO


They don't. Scottish MPs are always outvoted in Westminster.

They need to take back control and give sovereignty back to the Scottish people not those unelected Lords and Royals.

These things cut both ways you know.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:35 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

LOL

How have we not treated them nice.


By pushing a referendum result on them, for instance. Scotland being out of the EU if they voted out was a major point during the independence referendum, one that swung many votes.

Then the UK proceeded to crash out nevertheless.

Can you blame them for wanting to exercise their sovereignty and take back control?


Hey, they’ve got a devolved government.

They have lots of control.

Just not in the EU.

FIVE DAYS TO GO


And their devolved parliament, like NI's and Welsh didn't gave consent for the WA but will be forced into it anyway.
So much control.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:48 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
The price is the one UK decides to pay, could have decided to stay in SM, in CU, an FTA, remain or even no deal. It always have been UK choice ONLY.

The EU was always looking to extract revenge no matter if an agreement was reached. The EU project isn’t about friends its about interests and all countries act in self interest

That crazy propaganda may fly in your circles on the island, it just has no connection to reality. The EU has consistently stuck to very clear and solely interest-based positions where such nonsense as "revenge" doesn't play any role at all.


The level of paranoia is insane !

Revenge...? Hey, oh A101 ! It's high level international trade negotiation what's going on.
There's no emotions involved in this kind of negotiations.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:16 pm

Klaus wrote:

The EU has consistently stuck to very clear and solely interest-based positions where such nonsense as "revenge" doesn't play any role at all.


Least we agree on what the EU represents as I have said many a time, but revenge/punishment can take many forms

Klaus wrote:

It's actually just called taking responsibility for the consequences of your own choices as any adult should be able to!


Can you show where I have not taken responsibility for MY vote.

Klaus wrote:

But you leavers have been contorting yourselves into all kinds of shapes just to evade even the slightest shred of responsibility for the choices you yourself have been pushing for all this time.


I actually sleep fine at night no buyer’s remorse from me.

Klaus wrote:

You really need to man up and face the music instead of constantly bleating about the evil EU not letting you eating your cake and still having it, too!


Someone has to keep in check the distortion that most pro-remain make on here, but you are welcome to call it what you want
Klaus wrote:

When talking about handing out any extra favours to the UK about Brexit, and by comparison even just the dire consequences of exiting itself are already bad enough and should just not be cushioned by the EU.


It was rhetoric for both the UK and remaining members of the EU to quell any further aspirations of other member from leaving the EU.

Are you really calling out the Hungarian Prime Minister for a liar when he said
some in the EU want to punish London for its decision


Klaus wrote:

That is not Verhofstadt's actual position and this is at best taken out of a sarcastic context.


Gloating is not sarcasm, close aides generally reflect their boss views
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:00 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

Revenge...? Hey, oh A101 ! It's high level international trade negotiation what's going on.
There's no emotions involved in this kind of negotiations.


Well I guess the EU is sending a bunch of robots to the negations then :rotfl:

Emotions are already flowing in the EU if this report is corect;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10793191/ ... rade-deal/
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:34 am

Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.


It is an internal topic of the UK, the EU has no say if the Scots get a vote or not. That is nice truth about it.

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!

Scotland will of course have to satisfy all the usual conditions, but if they can free themselves they're certainly welcome to start on that path.

Is Scotland any different from the Catalonia province?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:40 am

Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.


It is an internal topic of the UK, the EU has no say if the Scots get a vote or not. That is nice truth about it.

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!

Scotland will of course have to satisfy all the usual conditions, but if they can free themselves they're certainly welcome to start on that path.


I missed this little conversation.
But wow you openly admit you are happy for the EU to use political interference in the domestic affairs in a foreign country. When do we start comparing the EU to the EUSSR?


No wonder the Israelis were pissed off of with Brussels all those years ago,

https://jcpa.org/article/the-european-u ... prejudice/
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:55 am

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
seahawk wrote:

It is an internal topic of the UK, the EU has no say if the Scots get a vote or not. That is nice truth about it.

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!

Scotland will of course have to satisfy all the usual conditions, but if they can free themselves they're certainly welcome to start on that path.

Is Scotland any different from the Catalonia province?

So far the scottish leaders are conducting their independence initiatives with a lot more care and political savvy than the clumsy catalan radicals.

And the crucial difference is that Spain is still an EU member with a veto on a potential catalonian accession, while the UK has just thrown away its own veto on a potential scottish one, so the path is free.

Shame, isn't it?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:57 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Revenge...? Hey, oh A101 ! It's high level international trade negotiation what's going on.
There's no emotions involved in this kind of negotiations.


Well I guess the EU is sending a bunch of robots to the negations then :rotfl:

Emotions are already flowing in the EU if this report is corect;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10793191/ ... rade-deal/

Got nothing to do with emotions, just with cold, hard negotiation mechanics: The UK is more in need and has less to offer, so it will get less at a higher price.

That's already a necessity for maintaining the balance on all the other treaties with other third countries which could get thrown into chaos if the UK got an extra preferential deal without matching commitments on the other hand.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:03 am

A101 wrote:
I missed this little conversation.
But wow you openly admit you are happy for the EU to use political interference in the domestic affairs in a foreign country.

If Scotland wins its independence, it won't be a UK domestic affair any more, and until then the EU won't take any active steps.

When do we start comparing the EU to the EUSSR?

You've been spewing that kind of toxic bile all along, so I don't see a point in that pious pretense this far down the road.

No wonder the Israelis were pissed off of with Brussels all those years ago,

https://jcpa.org/article/the-european-u ... prejudice/

You mean radical-right settlers and their political allies in Israel. Those are "pissed off" by anyone not cheering on their ideas of ethnic cleansing against those pesky palestinians.

And you're really reaching now, hard!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:23 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
I missed this little conversation.
But wow you openly admit you are happy for the EU to use political interference in the domestic affairs in a foreign country.

If Scotland wins its independence, it won't be a UK domestic affair any more, and until then the EU won't take any active steps.



You specifically said you can start accession talks with Scotland on Brexit Day, that’s next Friday. While the UK is independent Scotland is still part of the UK. Therefore you will be interfering in domestic politics of non EU member

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!


Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
When do we start comparing the EU to the EUSSR?

You've been spewing that kind of toxic bile all along, so I don't see a point in that pious pretense this far down the road.


I don’t recall ever calling the EU that, that’s a first for me, but if you are going to enter domestic politics of non-members it’s the most adept calling card
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:11 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Revenge...? Hey, oh A101 ! It's high level international trade negotiation what's going on.
There's no emotions involved in this kind of negotiations.


Well I guess the EU is sending a bunch of robots to the negations then :rotfl:

Emotions are already flowing in the EU if this report is corect;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10793191/ ... rade-deal/


Why do you see this as "revenge"? The UK seems to get the same treatment as Switzerland got (and still gets). Moreover, it shows how the EU views its bargaining position. Finally, CETA includes provisions which ensure that any product exported to the EU meets EU standards. Thus why should it make an exception for the UK?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:45 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

The EU has consistently stuck to very clear and solely interest-based positions where such nonsense as "revenge" doesn't play any role at all.


Least we agree on what the EU represents as I have said many a time, but revenge/punishment can take many forms


Huh? Am I correct that you are saying that the EU acting in its own interest is a form of revenge? In that case, sure, the EU is seeking revenge, bad bad EU for looking after its own interests. :banghead:

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

It's actually just called taking responsibility for the consequences of your own choices as any adult should be able to!


Can you show where I have not taken responsibility for MY vote.


Sure, you opened this, so I can comment on it. You are not going to live int he country anymore. So you are not taking any responsibility for your own vote, none. Because whatever happens to the UK won't affect you. It will affect me, as an EU citizen more than you. And that, my friend, has always weakened your personal position here.

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

But you leavers have been contorting yourselves into all kinds of shapes just to evade even the slightest shred of responsibility for the choices you yourself have been pushing for all this time.


I actually sleep fine at night no buyer’s remorse from me.


See above, you will not bare any of the consequences of Brexit. So it is easy for you to argue this, it is like shooting your fellow countrymen in the foot and then say, well it is not my foot, so I sleep fine, I am not hurting because of it. Again you opened this line, so you can expect a rebottle of this line.

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

You really need to man up and face the music instead of constantly bleating about the evil EU not letting you eating your cake and still having it, too!


Someone has to keep in check the distortion that most pro-remain make on here, but you are welcome to call it what you want


Which distortion? :roll:

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

When talking about handing out any extra favours to the UK about Brexit, and by comparison even just the dire consequences of exiting itself are already bad enough and should just not be cushioned by the EU.


It was rhetoric for both the UK and remaining members of the EU to quell any further aspirations of other member from leaving the EU.

Are you really calling out the Hungarian Prime Minister for a liar when he said
some in the EU want to punish London for its decision
[/quote]

Orban isn't the most reliable person to quote in this context, given its beef with the EU. But if your views are consistent with his, then we have another interesting conversation. Furthermore, you have quoted him twice now, without giving us any context, e.g. the link where he says it, so do that and we can see what he means by it. If you take it at face value, sure, there might be some that want to do that. But then it is fair to say that some Brexiteers are racists and want to kick out everyone not English. Heck, even your fellow Brexiteer mentioned the EU citizens are predominantly white as a reason, God knows why, but it gave me a bad taste in my mouth. But I will not use it as an argument, because not everyone feels that way. But I guess you are fine with that. It is a two-blade sword, my friend. Do you really want to go down that path?

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:

That is not Verhofstadt's actual position and this is at best taken out of a sarcastic context.


Gloating is not sarcasm, close aides generally reflect their boss views


Please show us that link, we are evidence-based, and I am certainly not taking your word for it......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:22 am

LJ wrote:
Why do you see this as "revenge"? The UK seems to get the same treatment as Switzerland got (and still gets). Moreover, it shows how the EU views its bargaining position


Brussels is reported to be saying that in order for trade talks to begin the UK must stay in regularity alignment for all goods and service permanently, that usurps sovereignty of the UK to determine its own national standards, As I said before vengeance (punishment/revenge) takes many forms.
The LPF rules that the EU want is stop the UK from gaining any competitive advantage.

LJ wrote:
Finally, CETA includes provisions which ensure that any product exported to the EU meets EU standards. Thus why should it make an exception for the UK?

We are not asking for an exception to import non-standard products into the EU, all divergence means we have different national standards. You do not require other third countries to alter their national standards, so why make it a prerequisite before trade talks can begin?
CETA is a perfect example for bi-lateral trade, trade still has to meet the national standards and those differ from the EU and CA.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:48 am

zkojq wrote:
If the UK wants a trade deal with the US then clorinated chicken is absolutely coming.

Woody Johnson, the US ambassador to the UK, said chlorinated chicken should 'absolutely be included' in a trade accord between the two countries.

His comments represent the first major broadside fired by either side ahead of trade talks between Downing Street and the White House later this year.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -deal.html

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
That’s easy three words “chlorine-washed chicken” but the EU allows a chlorine wash for vegies, the only logical conclusion is that the EU standards are a form of trade protectionism

https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/do ... a.2006.297

The European Food Safety Authority has said that there are “no safety concerns” with the chlorination of chicken,


I'll look for this post the next time I need a blatant example for quoting out of context.

Of course there is nothing wrong with a chlorine wash. The issue with chlorine washed chicken is to force producers better meat management practices further up the line.

A chlorine wash is a lazy cheap solution which can hide structural problems which may surface later. That's why the chlorine ban is in effect.


It's been explained to him time and time again. He's not understanding it on purpose.


Quoting the daily mail, really?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:52 am

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
olle wrote:
Regarding A50 and democratic function of UK. Scotland needs to ask for a election of dependency but NI has as I understand it thru GFA right to vote when they want to. Is this correct?


They won’t get another independence referendum under this Parliament.

They can ask. But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.


Since referenda in the UK are non binding, I don't see what would prevent Scotland to organize one if it wished. I can't imagine BoJo sending the police to stop such an advisory referendum.


The difference there being the UK government officially recognised the EU one as they had approved it. A potential Scottish one they wouldn’t recognise as it wouldn’t have their approval.

You’re assuming a yes vote, so if Scotland did hold one the UK government would certainly have to do something about in that situation.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:54 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
I missed this little conversation.
But wow you openly admit you are happy for the EU to use political interference in the domestic affairs in a foreign country.

If Scotland wins its independence, it won't be a UK domestic affair any more, and until then the EU won't take any active steps.



You specifically said you can start accession talks with Scotland on Brexit Day, that’s next Friday. While the UK is independent Scotland is still part of the UK. Therefore you will be interfering in domestic politics of non EU member

Sure. The EU does have a say about opening accession talks with an independent Scotland, however, and that path is already open right after Brexit day!


Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
When do we start comparing the EU to the EUSSR?

You've been spewing that kind of toxic bile all along, so I don't see a point in that pious pretense this far down the road.


I don’t recall ever calling the EU that, that’s a first for me, but if you are going to enter domestic politics of non-members it’s the most adept calling card


They all have massive chips on their shoulders. They should be wishing the best for the UK and embracing brexit.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:03 am

Dutchy wrote:

Huh? Am I correct that you are saying that the EU acting in its own interest is a form of revenge? In that case, sure, the EU is seeking revenge, bad bad EU for looking after its own interests


Yes, when it goes above accepted international norms for agreements

Dutchy wrote:

Sure, you opened this, so I can comment on it. You are not going to live int he country anymore. So you are not taking any responsibility for your own vote, none. Because whatever happens to the UK won't affect you. It will affect me, as an EU citizen more than you. And that, my friend, has always weakened your personal position here.


Where I end up living has no bearing on the matter, you have no idea what will or won’t affect me, the continued prosperity of the UK will still affect me, as I still will have a vested interest for it to do so.

Dutchy wrote:

See above, you will not bare any of the consequences of Brexit. So it is easy for you to argue this, it is like shooting your fellow countrymen in the foot and then say, well it is not my foot, so I sleep fine, I am not hurting because of it. Again you opened this line, so you can expect a rebottle of this line.


As you say, see above

Dutchy wrote:
Orban isn't the most reliable person to quote in this context, given its beef with the EU. But if your views are consistent with his, then we have another interesting conversation. Furthermore, you have quoted him twice now, without giving us any context, e.g. the link where he says it, so do that and we can see what he means by it. If you take it at face value, sure, there might be some that want to do that.

Its out there in the public domain, but I will give the same respect you gave me awhile ago, I’m not your personal secretary





Dutchy wrote:

But then it is fair to say that some Brexiteers are racists and want to kick out everyone not English. Heck, even your fellow Brexiteer mentioned the EU citizens are predominantly white as a reason, God knows why, but it gave me a bad taste in my mouth. But I will not use it as an argument, because not everyone feels that way. But I guess you are fine with that. It is a two-blade sword, my friend. Do you really want to go down that path?


Why are you bringing this up with me, are you saying I’m a racist?
Have I made any racist remarks on this site?
Do you believe that only pro leave people are racist, and racism does not exist within the EU?
I have met many pro-remain supporters and some who have also been the most racist people I have meet. You say you do not want to use it as an argument, but you obviously are.



Dutchy wrote:

Please show us that link, we are evidence-based, and I am certainly not taking your word for it......


Remember that personal secretary line.
Last edited by A101 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:09 am

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Why do you see this as "revenge"? The UK seems to get the same treatment as Switzerland got (and still gets). Moreover, it shows how the EU views its bargaining position


Brussels is reported to be saying that in order for trade talks to begin the UK must stay in regularity alignment for all goods and service permanently, that usurps sovereignty of the UK to determine its own national standards, As I said before vengeance (punishment/revenge) takes many forms.
The LPF rules that the EU want is stop the UK from gaining any competitive advantage.


Oh, because for you that's revenge to add "no dumping" to a "no tariff and no quota" FTA ?
The goal is not to stop UK gaining competitive advantage but to stop UNFAIR competitive advantage.

Also, do you have a link about your first sentence ? Can't see who in Brussels said something like that because the official position is that in order for trade talks to begin Michel Barnier's team needs to be given mandate (end of february). Nothing more, nothing less.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:31 am

A101 wrote:

LJ wrote:
Finally, CETA includes provisions which ensure that any product exported to the EU meets EU standards. Thus why should it make an exception for the UK?

We are not asking for an exception to import non-standard products into the EU, all divergence means we have different national standards. You do not require other third countries to alter their national standards, so why make it a prerequisite before trade talks can begin?
CETA is a perfect example for bi-lateral trade, trade still has to meet the national standards and those differ from the EU and CA.


The UK wants automatic recognition. That can't happen without being governed by same or equivalent rules.

If the UK wants to set their own national standards different from those of the EU automatic recognition can't happen, companies will need to pass certification procedures.

This is probably the 20th time we're explaining this. If all the UK wanted was a Canada or South Korea-like trade agreement it can be done. If they want a closer Norway-like, it can also be done.

What the UK cannot do is pick and choose and complain that they can't have automatic recognition without regulatory alignment. That can't happen. Ever. Not for the UK, not for anyone else.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:15 am

JJJ wrote:
The UK wants automatic recognition. That can't happen without being governed by same or equivalent rules.
If the UK wants to set their own national standards different from those of the EU automatic recognition can't happen, companies will need to pass certification procedures.
This is probably the 20th time we're explaining this. If all the UK wanted was a Canada or South Korea-like trade agreement it can be done. If they want a closer Norway-like, it can also be done.
What the UK cannot do is pick and choose and complain that they can't have automatic recognition without regulatory alignment. That can't happen. Ever. Not for the UK, not for anyone else.


I haven’t heard anyone from the UK say anything about automatic recognition.

No one’s disputing that with divergence, those free enterprise that want to continue trading with the EU are already a known entity within the EU and are familiar with the regulatory burden its just a matter of setting up the required agency during transition in which the EU recognises if we actually diverge in those areas, much like the Australians have done with ECUAS
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:25 am

A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Why do you see this as "revenge"? The UK seems to get the same treatment as Switzerland got (and still gets). Moreover, it shows how the EU views its bargaining position


Brussels is reported to be saying that in order for trade talks to begin the UK must stay in regularity alignment for all goods and service permanently, that usurps sovereignty of the UK to determine its own national standards, As I said before vengeance (punishment/revenge) takes many forms.
The LPF rules that the EU want is stop the UK from gaining any competitive advantage..


Yet what is the difference with Switzerland? If you call this "revenge" than the EU would have been revenging Switzerland for years as the UK gets the same treatment as Switzerland. It's the number one precondition of a FTA with the EU (especially when the country is located in Europe). Moreover, I hope you realise that it's not up to the EU to provide the UK with a competitive edge as it will leave the EU soon.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:40 pm

The average brexiteer can't comprehend the fact they have chosen to throw away the most envied and most privileged position within the EU to become a small player.
They cannot comprehend the fact, the actions taken by the EU are exactly the actions the EU said it would take at the start of the process and the actions that are REQUIRED to be taken in accordance with the EU Constitution (which the UK helped write). To the average brexiteer, this is somewhow emotional and vindictive on the EU's part (but hey, the smucks have been blaming the EU for all the UK's domestic ills for decades so why change now?).

You're getting what you voted for, ya cretins. You voted to make the UK a 3rd country, you voted to lose control in the EU, you voted to end the UK's influence within the EU. You voted to throw away all the UK's privilege in the EU. You were told what would happen beforehand, it was all there in writing.
Stop crying foul because you fell for the lies that promised unicorns from your bigoted heroes.
You are getting what you voted for: a weaker UK and the realisation the promises made were never a credible possibility.

#REVOKEA50 (There's still time).
Last edited by ChrisKen on Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:41 pm

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Why do you see this as "revenge"? The UK seems to get the same treatment as Switzerland got (and still gets). Moreover, it shows how the EU views its bargaining position


Brussels is reported to be saying that in order for trade talks to begin the UK must stay in regularity alignment for all goods and service permanently, that usurps sovereignty of the UK to determine its own national standards, As I said before vengeance (punishment/revenge) takes many forms.
The LPF rules that the EU want is stop the UK from gaining any competitive advantage..


Yet what is the difference with Switzerland? If you call this "revenge" than the EU would have been revenging Switzerland for years as the UK gets the same treatment as Switzerland. It's the number one precondition of a FTA with the EU (especially when the country is located in Europe). Moreover, I hope you realise that it's not up to the EU to provide the UK with a competitive edge as it will leave the EU soon.


One thing important regarding revenge against the swiss and now UK. UK government has been part of defining the treatment of the swiss relations with EU. UK has been part of defining that the big number of agreement that there is in the case with swiss is not a way forward. UK has agreed with the policy that if swiss breaks one agreement all other agreements is broken.

Now UK wants EU to be nice with UK compared EU has been with swiss when UK still had influance snd veto on the treatment and revenge.

This shows that UK plays the same game as EU. When EU is bigger then swiss one game. If EU is equal to let say china one game.

UK plays the same game with bigger partners like USA, one with equal partners like canada and one with smaller like let say marocco.

It is not personal but interests. And ones for all forget WTO that is dead in the water.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:51 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
#REVOKEA50 (There's still time).


Is there really?

I have to say that since the election I have completely lost interest in Brexit. It's not that I don't think it's important or that the UK isn't going to get in a complete mess in the next few months, it's because I know it *IS* important and that the UK is *ABSOLUTELY* going to get itself screwed in the next few months.

I am now in a kind of "who knows what the heck is going to happen?" fatalistic fuzz. Clearly, there's no stopping the idiocy now - so I'm just hoping the proverbial poop mostly misses my fan while it proceeds to rain down on the nation as a whole. I'm actually kind of looking foward to seeing the deniers have reality firmly pushed into their faces. I know there will be a lot of bleating about it still somehow being EUs fault (see top-rated comments on todays BBC story on Varadkar pointing out fishing rights will be a trade-off for financial service access)... but hopefully in a year's time enough people will have seen the light and we can start to turn the ship around.

Looking forward to a time when I regain my current right to live and work around Europe, and this time I'll be using the same currency at my retirement home in the Pyrenees and when visting friends and family in the UK.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:44 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The UK wants automatic recognition. That can't happen without being governed by same or equivalent rules.
If the UK wants to set their own national standards different from those of the EU automatic recognition can't happen, companies will need to pass certification procedures.
This is probably the 20th time we're explaining this. If all the UK wanted was a Canada or South Korea-like trade agreement it can be done. If they want a closer Norway-like, it can also be done.
What the UK cannot do is pick and choose and complain that they can't have automatic recognition without regulatory alignment. That can't happen. Ever. Not for the UK, not for anyone else.


I haven’t heard anyone from the UK say anything about automatic recognition.


You haven't been paying attention then.

UK wants no checks on borders for goods. That can't happen without auto recognition (otherwise there's at the very least document checking). That doesn't happen without full regulatory alignment.

For the sake of British citizens the UK government and media should cease to use meaningless buzzwords like "frictionless" and use precise, measurable terms.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:34 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
What absolute nonsense. Most Scots are against independence if we go by latest polls. Do you honestly think they will want to turn their backs on a union, they’ve been in for hundreds of years, to join Europe? Of course not.


Actually most Scots are currently in favour of independence. It seems that they're not too enthusiastic about important decisions being made by Boris and his gaggle of Westminster morons.

noviorbis77 wrote:
But the Conservative position is that they had their once in a lifetime vote just a few years back. That is not to say a change in government, if it happens in 2024, would not think differently.


The Conservative and Unionist Party also just built a border in the North Sea so I'm not sure how much their official position is actually worth. Once their poll numbers slide enough I wouldn't be surprised if Boris "begrudgingly" grants a referendum. If Scotland leaves the Union then the Conservatives have a Westminster majority for 30 years. Brexit is more important to Brexiteers than the Union staying together.

Klaus wrote:
Minor detail: An actual US state would gain actual rights, privileges and power within the USA, but the most the UK could hope for would be dependent vassalage without even actual voting rights, most likely below the level of Puerto Rico.

I can still see brexiteers unironically supporting this. You know the same ones who said Brexit was all about "sovereignty" and "taking back control". :spin:

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
You must remember that Scots are nationals of the UK and not Scotland and most UK nationals wanted out the EU.

In short: Scotland doesn't matter, scots should just shut up and do what they're told by a majority in England.

Yeah, and you're still wondering why they want to get away from you...!


Indeed. The lack of self awareness is startling. Imagine if the EU treated the UK with that same contempt.

JJJ wrote:
They need to take back control and give sovereignty back to the Scottish people not those unelected Lords and Royals.

These things cut both ways you know.

:checkmark:

A101 wrote:
No wonder the Israelis were pissed off of with Brussels all those years ago,

https://jcpa.org/article/the-european-u ... prejudice/


Illegal settlements are not Israeli settlements. If I sail to Guernsey, kick out the locals and declare it to be French that does not make it so.

Dutchy wrote:
Huh? Am I correct that you are saying that the EU acting in its own interest is a form of revenge? In that case, sure, the EU is seeking revenge, bad bad EU for looking after its own interests. :banghead:


It's amazing isn't it. Expecting the EU not to act in it's own interests and to give special concessions to the UK because "we're special". Negotiations with US and China sure will be fun.. :lol:

A101 wrote:
Brussels is reported to be saying that in order for trade talks to begin the UK must stay in regularity alignment for all goods and service permanently, that usurps sovereignty of the UK to determine its own national standards,


This was known right from the beginning. If people didn't do their research you can't blame the EU for that. If you want Common Market access you have to maintain Common Market standards.

Arion640 wrote:
They should be wishing the best for the UK and embracing brexit.


They are embracing Brexit by negotiating the best possible deal for Europe.

JJJ wrote:
What the UK cannot do is pick and choose and complain that they can't have automatic recognition without regulatory alignment. That can't happen. Ever. Not for the UK, not for anyone else.


:checkmark: and this was known well before Brexit.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:35 pm

I've got a question for olddog: what is Part 8 going to be called?
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