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Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:38 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

I believe they should be treated no differently to a non EU citizen whose work permit has expired.

If they can support the country, not be an economic burden and meet Immigration Rules, then fine, more than happy for them to stay. But they should not get any preference over non-EU citizens. It is wrong to suggest that one group, who are predominately white, get preference over non EU, who in the case of the UK, are not predominately white.


The system should work for them and be fair (EU citizens who wish to stay), that would be a start - then there wouldn't be any discussion about any sort of being thrown out. . You've seen the various stories I assume of Doctors, a famous scientist, people who own houses etc who have lived in the UK for years, have their application for settlement rejected. Even when documentary proof has been given. Even on appeal?

The system isn't working, therefore I don't trust for a second that legitiate people aren't at serious risk of being removed.This govenment has a history of screwing things like this up.

As for those who aren't working / can't financially support themselves. It's quite amusing because the UK govenment has had the ability to ask those people to leave after 3 months if they cannot prove they can support themselves - but chose not to implement this policy. Unlike a lot of other EU countries. Now it's leaving, it's finally effectively going to do just that. What it could have done all along.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:21 pm

olle wrote:

If they want out, they get out in a few days why do they complain that they loose influance?




Hence the reason why Johnson does not want an extension after 2020 and the EU does it means if we do it extends vassalage to the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

The Spanish can decide what to do.


Question is not what the EU or Spain should do, it is wheater you mind or not.


Whether I mind or not?

It is not really my business. It is up to Spain to decide what they wish to do.

As a dual national with Ireland, I can move anywhere in the EU without hindrance, subject to exercising treaty rights.


Yes, we know about your free pass out of Brexit UK. The rest I leave here out, since my previous reaction was deleted.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

The Spanish can decide what to do.


Question is not what the EU or Spain should do, it is wheater you mind or not.


Whether I mind or not?

It is not really my business. It is up to Spain to decide what they wish to do.

As a dual national with Ireland, I can move anywhere in the EU without hindrance, subject to exercising treaty rights.


Yep one would expect expats to comply with the law of the land as we expect them to do in the UK, in the case of expats if they fail to do so then they will suffer the consequences. It has been known for some time about the EU settlement scheme here in the UK as it should be know of similar arrangements within the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:44 pm

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Question is not what the EU or Spain should do, it is wheater you mind or not.


Whether I mind or not?

It is not really my business. It is up to Spain to decide what they wish to do.

As a dual national with Ireland, I can move anywhere in the EU without hindrance, subject to exercising treaty rights.


Yep one would expect expats to comply with the law of the land as we expect them to do in the UK, in the case of expats if they fail to do so then they will suffer the consequences. It has been known for some time about the EU settlement scheme here in the UK as it should be know of similar arrangements within the EU.


Quite a weak response for someone who is ok with turning these people's lives up-side-down and not only that but actively doing so.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Whether I mind or not?

It is not really my business. It is up to Spain to decide what they wish to do.

As a dual national with Ireland, I can move anywhere in the EU without hindrance, subject to exercising treaty rights.


Yep one would expect expats to comply with the law of the land as we expect them to do in the UK, in the case of expats if they fail to do so then they will suffer the consequences. It has been known for some time about the EU settlement scheme here in the UK as it should be know of similar arrangements within the EU.


Quite a weak response for someone who is ok with turning these people's lives up-side-down and not only that but actively doing so.



Are you advocating that people do not comply with the law ?

And if so this is coming from someone who described the EU as a rule based union .
 
94717
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:59 pm

The Eu27 moved to UK under EU law.

UK people moved to EU27 under EU law.

The expectation was that all EU members was going to respect that agreement.

Suddenly UK says we want out without respecting agreements. EU27 and EU parliament says that both UK and EU27 members citizens that moved between each other under EU law shall have that agreement respected.

This deal and many other agreements now UK with all means try to back out from. They try until EU parliament says if they do we sink the whole agreement. Which country will want to trust UK after this mess?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:45 pm

olle wrote:
The Eu27 moved to UK under EU law.

UK people moved to EU27 under EU law.

The expectation was that all EU members was going to respect that agreement.

Suddenly UK says we want out without respecting agreements. EU27 and EU parliament says that both UK and EU27 members citizens that moved between each other under EU law shall have that agreement respected.

This deal and many other agreements now UK with all means try to back out from. They try until EU parliament says if they do we sink the whole agreement. Which country will want to trust UK after this mess?


Yes we are talking about the law under EU law member nations have the right to leave the EU, the UK has exercised its right to leave the EU under EU law via article 50 .

Arrangements are put in place for those who wish to retain stay and receive citizenship In either the UK or EU. The only one the law effects of those who do not apply to the settlement scheme and risk being an illegal persons in either the UK or EU


@Dutchy it’s all about the law EU and UK law or is it about the fact that some member nations do not recognise dual nationality which I believe the Neatherlands is part of that group, if you take up UK citizenship you have to drop the Neatherlands citizenship even if you were born there.

https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch- ... ationality
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:07 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I believe they should be treated no differently to a non EU citizen whose work permit has expired.

If they can support the country, not be an economic burden and meet Immigration Rules, then fine, more than happy for them to stay. But they should not get any preference over non-EU citizens. It is wrong to suggest that one group, who are predominately white, get preference over non EU, who in the case of the UK, are not predominately white.


The system should work for them and be fair (EU citizens who wish to stay), that would be a start - then there wouldn't be any discussion about any sort of being thrown out. . You've seen the various stories I assume of Doctors, a famous scientist, people who own houses etc who have lived in the UK for years, have their application for settlement rejected. Even when documentary proof has been given. Even on appeal?

The system isn't working, therefore I don't trust for a second that legitiate people aren't at serious risk of being removed.This govenment has a history of screwing things like this up.

As for those who aren't working / can't financially support themselves. It's quite amusing because the UK govenment has had the ability to ask those people to leave after 3 months if they cannot prove they can support themselves - but chose not to implement this policy. Unlike a lot of other EU countries. Now it's leaving, it's finally effectively going to do just that. What it could have done all along.


We do deport EEA nationals not exercising treaty rights.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:41 pm

I guess it’s going to be a battle of wills between the Commons and Lords on the EU withdrawl bill.

We could in fact be leaving without an agreement if this keeps up.

That will make a lot of people happy

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc ... s-51199870
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:15 am

Just looking up what government can do if the Commoms and Lords cannot agree and a Bill fails

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/law ... mendments/

In exceptional cases, when the two Houses do not reach agreement, the Bill falls. If certain conditions are met, the Commons can use the Parliament Acts to pass the Bill, without the consent of the Lords, in the following session.


&

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/law ... amentacts/

Most other Commons Bills can be held up by the Lords if they disagree with them for about a year but ultimately the elected House of Commons can reintroduce them in the following session and pass them without the consent of the Lords.


Mmm;10 days if the government wants to start another Parliamentary Session. I think someone going to have to blink first to get this over the line if they are playing ping pong
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:26 am

olle wrote:
Which country will want to trust UK after this mess?

Anyone that respects democracy and the right of the people to decide their future and daily lives to politicians using the ballot box.
Lies or not, every single thing related to Brexit other than the court case has been decided by people voting, whether the citizens or their representatives.

Now if the belief is that the masses do not know what is good for them and educated folks should make those decisions for them that's another debate.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 am

olle wrote:
Suddenly UK says we want out without respecting agreements. EU27 and EU parliament says that both UK and EU27 members citizens that moved between each other under EU law shall have that agreement respected.

Neglected to comment on this, it goes back to the initial threads back in 2016. The agreements are for members, is there some accusation that the UK as a member has not been respecting the agreements signed?

The UK is leaving the EU, the agreements they have to respect and legally follow are those they will sign as a part of the disengagement.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:40 am

A101 wrote:
Mmm;10 days if the government wants to start another Parliamentary Session. I think someone going to have to blink first to get this over the line if they are playing ping pong

I would be shocked if they do not use the option to just have the commons over rule the Lords and pass the bills.

The Lords is not a house elected by the people, its majority are opposed to Brexit and nothing since the 2016 vote has affected them, so if anyone in government or the commons expected the Lords to pass any bill related to Brexit is or has been living under a rock.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:12 am

People need to learn that the EU has no more sway in the UK. The UK now does what is best for the UK. If this means throwing out all immigrants from the EU that just take up British jobs, so be it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:16 am

seahawk wrote:
People need to learn that the EU has no more sway in the UK. The UK now does what is best for the UK. If this means throwing out all immigrants from the EU that just take up British jobs, so be it.


Action reaction, people need to learn that only acting in its own interest, isn't in the interest of the country at all.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:18 am

A101 wrote:
I guess it’s going to be a battle of wills between the Commons and Lords on the EU withdrawl bill.

We could in fact be leaving without an agreement if this keeps up.

That will make a lot of people happy

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc ... s-51199870


That's still what the Brexitremist want and still very possible. Just look at what your minister said - I quoted it on the previous page.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:48 am

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:
People need to learn that the EU has no more sway in the UK. The UK now does what is best for the UK. If this means throwing out all immigrants from the EU that just take up British jobs, so be it.


Action reaction, people need to learn that only acting in its own interest, isn't in the interest of the country at all.



Acting in our own interests is doing just that.... acting in the UK interests, not the EU interests.



Dutchy wrote:
That's still what the Brexitremist want and still very possible. Just look at what your minister said - I quoted it on the previous page.



What has the Finance minister Sajid Javid comments on the FTA have to do with ratification of the EU Withdrawl Bill in the House of Lords......two totally different things
 
94717
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:13 pm

par13del wrote:
olle wrote:
Suddenly UK says we want out without respecting agreements. EU27 and EU parliament says that both UK and EU27 members citizens that moved between each other under EU law shall have that agreement respected.

Neglected to comment on this, it goes back to the initial threads back in 2016. The agreements are for members, is there some accusation that the UK as a member has not been respecting the agreements signed?

The UK is leaving the EU, the agreements they have to respect and legally follow are those they will sign as a part of the disengagement.


Me and my girlfriend get married. Agreement is that we shall share responibilites for ourself, our future assets and children.

If we divorce we can agree about stopping to have responibilities about each other and divide assets.

But our common children we cannot negotiate about. The citizen of EU28 is the children in this example. We created this situation together and we cannot make this responibility dissapear until the people we talk about is dead or have double nationalities in UK and. EU27 country.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:38 pm

seahawk wrote:
People need to learn that the EU has no more sway in the UK. The UK now does what is best for the UK. If this means throwing out all immigrants from the EU that just take up British jobs, so be it.


I understand that at this time the NHS does not have enough doctors and nurses to function without immigrants. So where are the training programs to correct this, and how fast can it happen? And as in the US low paying jobs go begging, our citizen don't want them, or at least as many citizens as there are needs for poorer paying income jobs.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:07 pm

olle wrote:
par13del wrote:
olle wrote:
Suddenly UK says we want out without respecting agreements. EU27 and EU parliament says that both UK and EU27 members citizens that moved between each other under EU law shall have that agreement respected.

Neglected to comment on this, it goes back to the initial threads back in 2016. The agreements are for members, is there some accusation that the UK as a member has not been respecting the agreements signed?

The UK is leaving the EU, the agreements they have to respect and legally follow are those they will sign as a part of the disengagement.


Me and my girlfriend get married. Agreement is that we shall share responibilites for ourself, our future assets and children.

If we divorce we can agree about stopping to have responibilities about each other and divide assets.

But our common children we cannot negotiate about. The citizen of EU28 is the children in this example. We created this situation together and we cannot make this responibility dissapear until the people we talk about is dead or have double nationalities in UK and. EU27 country.


That’s not a very good analogy, a better one would be a multi-national free enterprise de-merging and going there seperate ways. The free enterprise would pay its workers redundancies as a one off payment, it doesn’t mean because you worked for them they have to keep compensating your offsprings in perpetuity.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:13 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
seahawk wrote:
People need to learn that the EU has no more sway in the UK. The UK now does what is best for the UK. If this means throwing out all immigrants from the EU that just take up British jobs, so be it.


I understand that at this time the NHS does not have enough doctors and nurses to function without immigrants. So where are the training programs to correct this, and how fast can it happen? And as in the US low paying jobs go begging, our citizen don't want them, or at least as many citizens as there are needs for poorer paying income jobs.


Having a shortage of skilled workers is not unique to the UK just about every nation on earth has a shortage. The UK is not going to stop migration we are just going to have a more robust policy on vetting those who want to come to the UK for work. Johnson wants an Australia-style immigration system. We want the determination on who enters the country and for how long
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:28 pm

And the Lords have blinked first :box:


EU withdrawal bill clears final parliamentary hurdle

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc ... s-51210602
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:03 pm

A101 wrote:
And the Lords have blinked first :box:


EU withdrawal bill clears final parliamentary hurdle

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc ... s-51210602


Yeah, great. You were the only trying to introduce a doubt about this outcome, but whatever.
Did you find some time to elaborate on the economic transformation of UK the Brexit will enable?
What the "period of adjustment" consists in?
In what aspect would UK, will be better?

Your words 6 days ago , again :
#2289
A101 wrote:
UK joined the EEC/EU the Australian, New Zealand and Canadian economies transformed after a period of adjustment. The UK to will go through a period of adjustment and we will be all the better for it.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:10 pm

A withdrawal agreement is not the same as a trade agreement. But it needs to be acknowledged that the EU has repeatedly implied that it would make it as easy as possible for the UK to continue, but consistent with EU standards and protections. The EU has no intentions, nor has it ever,of being punitive. Reality will be hard enough even with the best of intentions on both sides.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:15 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

Yeah, great. You were the only trying to introduce a doubt about this outcome, but whatever.


No not really; just sharing what had transpired between the Commons & Lords, there was always a risk that the Lords would not pass the WAB

But if you want to present it as some sort of conspiracy theory be my guest :rotfl:

Grizzly410 wrote:
Did you find some time to elaborate on the economic transformation of UK the Brexit will enable?
What the "period of adjustment" consists in?
In what aspect would UK, will be better?

Your words 6 days ago , again :
#2289
A101 wrote:
UK joined the EEC/EU the Australian, New Zealand and Canadian economies transformed after a period of adjustment. The UK to will go through a period of adjustment and we will be all the better for it.


I thought it was fairly straight forward to what I have said. Are you suggesting that when the UK joined the EEC that it did not have an affect on the Commonwealth Nations?

As for a period of adjustment you do not need to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure that one out that there has to be some period of adjustment. Are you expecting an in-depth analysis when we do not even know the terms of the future relationship will be with the EU and other various nations

I’m not putting to much stock on the latest analysis by the IMF nor have I read the projected report, but it has been picked up by various media outlets that they are expecting the UK economy to grow faster than the EU post Brexit, make of that what you will.

Personally I think the negotiations team should make the priority to join TPP-11 pending how the talks go with the EU as I’m expecting to many demands from EU
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:54 pm

Be careful when ordering a vehicle from across the channel.

Brit orders a new Mercedes-Benz, gets a nasty Brexit surprise

Scottish pensioner John Hamill has ordered a Mercedes-Benz CLA for nearly £ 33,000. But the final amount can just be higher. Mercedes-Benz has recently started working with Brexit disclaimers to warn car buyers of possible price increases as a result of the Brexit.

"Brexit," it says pontifically on the order form that Hamill received, "The price of this vehicle can change between now and delivery." agenda.

Mercedes-Benz response
"With the information on Mr Hamill's order form, we want to inform our customers about the charges that are likely to apply if the United Kingdom leaves the European Union," Mercedes-Benz told the British newspaper Metro. "We will adjust our prices accordingly."

Not informed in advance
Hamill is not happy. He has made a deposit of £ 500 for his new car and says he has not been informed in advance by his Mercedes-Benz dealer about the possible price increase. "They can't give me an estimate, because they don't know what will happen."

Delivery delayed
The upcoming Brexit also has an impact on the delivery date of the CLA. "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May." And only then does he really know what to pay for his CLA.

Serious consequences of Brexit
"I was angry when I heard it," he admits, "but if we look at the entire Brexit, my car is only a minor problem of course. It's going to have much more serious consequences. I think the slogan "Get Brexit Done" was incredibly simplistic and that the practice will become much more difficult. "


In Dutch

The small problems for an ordinary man...........
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Be careful when ordering a vehicle from across the channel.

Brit orders a new Mercedes-Benz, gets a nasty Brexit surprise

Scottish pensioner John Hamill has ordered a Mercedes-Benz CLA for nearly £ 33,000. But the final amount can just be higher. Mercedes-Benz has recently started working with Brexit disclaimers to warn car buyers of possible price increases as a result of the Brexit.

"Brexit," it says pontifically on the order form that Hamill received, "The price of this vehicle can change between now and delivery." agenda.

Mercedes-Benz response
"With the information on Mr Hamill's order form, we want to inform our customers about the charges that are likely to apply if the United Kingdom leaves the European Union," Mercedes-Benz told the British newspaper Metro. "We will adjust our prices accordingly."

Not informed in advance
Hamill is not happy. He has made a deposit of £ 500 for his new car and says he has not been informed in advance by his Mercedes-Benz dealer about the possible price increase. "They can't give me an estimate, because they don't know what will happen."

Delivery delayed
The upcoming Brexit also has an impact on the delivery date of the CLA. "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May." And only then does he really know what to pay for his CLA.

Serious consequences of Brexit
"I was angry when I heard it," he admits, "but if we look at the entire Brexit, my car is only a minor problem of course. It's going to have much more serious consequences. I think the slogan "Get Brexit Done" was incredibly simplistic and that the practice will become much more difficult. "


In Dutch

The small problems for an ordinary man...........


Are they expecting for delivery to happen after December?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:10 pm

A101 wrote:
Are they expecting for delivery to happen after December?


Nope, read!: "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May."

So it is delayed already and the disclaimer is there, now.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:15 pm

We'll see how fast the UK will divide from EU rules, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said in the Financial Times it could be quite fast.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Are they expecting for delivery to happen after December?


Nope, read!: "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May."

So it is delayed already and the disclaimer is there, now.



April/ May is not December we are in vassalage until then.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:31 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Are they expecting for delivery to happen after December?


Nope, read!: "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May."

So it is delayed already and the disclaimer is there, now.



April/ May is not December we are in vassalage until then.


Tell that to Mercedes, they put the disclaimer in and reacted as they did. So it is not as sure as you claim.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Nope, read!: "Normally it would be in March," said Hamill, "but now they are talking about April or May."

So it is delayed already and the disclaimer is there, now.



April/ May is not December we are in vassalage until then.


Tell that to Mercedes, they put the disclaimer in and reacted as they did. So it is not as sure as you claim.



If Mercedes is adding to the price before December delivery then they are price gouging, The customer has the option of putting into the contract if the car is not delivered before December 2020 then he does not have to except the car. I have actually put these stipulations in when buying a new car to beat price rises it all has to be negotiated before signing the contract and put in the contract. If Mercedes wants the sale then it’s up to Mercedes and how far they will go and it’s up to the consumer if they want to pay the increase.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:26 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


April/ May is not December we are in vassalage until then.


Tell that to Mercedes, they put the disclaimer in and reacted as they did. So it is not as sure as you claim.



If Mercedes is adding to the price before December delivery then they are price gouging, The customer has the option of putting into the contract if the car is not delivered before December 2020 then he does not have to except the car. I have actually put these stipulations in when buying a new car to beat price rises it all has to be negotiated before signing the contract and put in the contract. If Mercedes wants the sale then it’s up to Mercedes and how far they will go and it’s up to the consumer if they want to pay the increase.


pffff it's all everybody's fault, except for Brexit. Exporting Brexit problems to other countries, no problem, buying a car and then end up paying more because of Brexit, buyers problem, etc. etc. etc. Must be nice to blame everything and everyone else. A question though, when will it because of Brexit?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:54 am

So can the average UK citizen afford a Mercedes or is this a rich Brexiter trying to create more confusion?
 
A101
Posts: 3560
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Tell that to Mercedes, they put the disclaimer in and reacted as they did. So it is not as sure as you claim.



If Mercedes is adding to the price before December delivery then they are price gouging, The customer has the option of putting into the contract if the car is not delivered before December 2020 then he does not have to except the car. I have actually put these stipulations in when buying a new car to beat price rises it all has to be negotiated before signing the contract and put in the contract. If Mercedes wants the sale then it’s up to Mercedes and how far they will go and it’s up to the consumer if they want to pay the increase.


pffff it's all everybody's fault, except for Brexit. Exporting Brexit problems to other countries, no problem, buying a car and then end up paying more because of Brexit, buyers problem, etc. etc. etc. Must be nice to blame everything and everyone else. A question though, when will it because of Brexit?


Good god, you really have no clue to what I wrote. Just going off on the broken record it’s everybody’s else fault when I have not said anything of that nature.

As I posted before the UK is in vassalage state so there should be no price rise because of Brexit, you showed the consumer getting upset because of a disclaimer, I merely pointed out it should not affect him/her as they should receive the vehicle in April/May the transition period ends in December so should not be affected by the disclaimer

I also pointed out the consumer can also negotiate as part of the deal if the vehicle is delivered after the transition period if Mercedes can waive the increase if they do not want to lose sales but this has to be negotiated at time of sale and written into the contract.


So can you please show me where I blamed everyone else please.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13199
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:35 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


If Mercedes is adding to the price before December delivery then they are price gouging, The customer has the option of putting into the contract if the car is not delivered before December 2020 then he does not have to except the car. I have actually put these stipulations in when buying a new car to beat price rises it all has to be negotiated before signing the contract and put in the contract. If Mercedes wants the sale then it’s up to Mercedes and how far they will go and it’s up to the consumer if they want to pay the increase.


pffff it's all everybody's fault, except for Brexit. Exporting Brexit problems to other countries, no problem, buying a car and then end up paying more because of Brexit, buyers problem, etc. etc. etc. Must be nice to blame everything and everyone else. A question though, when will it because of Brexit?


Good god, you really have no clue to what I wrote. Just going off on the broken record it’s everybody’s else fault when I have not said anything of that nature.

As I posted before the UK is in vassalage state so there should be no price rise because of Brexit, you showed the consumer getting upset because of a disclaimer, I merely pointed out it should not affect him/her as they should receive the vehicle in April/May the transition period ends in December so should not be affected by the disclaimer

I also pointed out the consumer can also negotiate as part of the deal if the vehicle is delivered after the transition period if Mercedes can waive the increase if they do not want to lose sales but this has to be negotiated at time of sale and written into the contract.


So can you please show me where I blamed everyone else please.


It is your attitude man, that's the problem. Your attitude is, it is either Mercedes Benz it's problem, or it is the citizen's problem, but the real problem is Brexit. You failed to address the root cause. The same with Northern Ireland: it is an Irish or Nothern Ireland problem, not a British one. We went over this many many times, you, as a Brexiteer, don't take any blame for the Brexit fallout. This is a very small example of it, but there will be many many more. You advocated a profound change, perhaps the biggest since WWII and you do not take the responsibility for it, as is appropriate. And you, yourself (-and noviorbis77 for that matter), go one step further, you are leaving the UK altogether, so whatever happens, doesn't affect you at all. That is one bizarre and stupid aspect of the whole Brexit saga, you could vote for your Brexit and leave - no effect to your personal life, an UK citizen living within the EU, could not vote and it has a huge effect on his or her life. You decided that others should suffer, so you basically shot someone else its foot.
So that irritates the heck out of me with your attitude and you spectacular missing the point each and every time. But I understand that you cannot admit any of that to yourself, if you did grasp that, you would see that you are being very hypocritical.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13199
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:37 am

par13del wrote:
So can the average UK citizen afford a Mercedes or is this a rich Brexiter trying to create more confusion?


That seems to be a false dilemma. He is Scottish, so the change he is a remainer is quite big. But that is beside the point.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15982
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:05 am

I wonder how they manage the change risk usually, take a hedging bet on the Pound once an order is placed ?
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:22 am

Aesma wrote:
I wonder how they manage the change risk usually, take a hedging bet on the Pound once an order is placed ?


Probably, just as any other risk can be hedged. But there is a price to pay of course.
 
A101
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is your attitude man, that's the problem. Your attitude is, it is either Mercedes Benz it's problem, or it is the citizen's problem,


Well the whole point is that there is no problem because as it has been explained numerous times we are in the transition phase and we do not know what will happen with tariffs until the negotiations have concluded


Dutchy wrote:
but the real problem is Brexit. You failed to address the root cause.


The problem is not Brexit, it’s just your narrow focus in one aspect of leaving the EU, Brexit is not just defined by the economic argument

Dutchy wrote:
The same with Northern Ireland: it is an Irish or Nothern Ireland problem, not a British one.


Well technically it’s a UK/EU problem, one only has to look at the CTA to see that the UK/ROI can make constructive agreements....the fly in the ointment is Brussels AKA; the EU

Dutchy wrote:
We went over this many many times, you, as a Brexiteer, don't take any blame for the Brexit fallout. This is a very small example of it, but there will be many many more. You advocated a profound change, perhaps the biggest since WWII and you do not take the responsibility for it, as is appropriate.


How can you apportion blame to those who voted in a referenda by the democratically elected government, admittedly the Cameron/May governments handled the process very badly as did Parliament. If you are going to play the blame game I suggest you present it in the correct arena.


Dutchy wrote:
And you, yourself (-and noviorbis77 for that matter), go one step further, you are leaving the UK altogether, so whatever happens, doesn't affect you at all.


Hang on, I don’t recall noviorbis77 ever say he intends to take up residence in the EU only as a dual nationality he has the option. I don’t believe that is a unique situation, I imagine there would literally be hundreds of thousands able to do the same

Dutchy wrote:
That is one bizarre and stupid aspect of the whole Brexit saga, you could vote for your Brexit and leave - no effect to your personal life, an UK citizen living within the EU, could not vote and it has a huge effect on his or her life.


Well that is plainly wrong UK citizens who live abroad, can vote if you’re a British citizen or Irish who had been registered to vote here in the last 15 years. The only restriction were to those who had not been registered for over 15 years due to the length of record keeping limitations

Dutchy wrote:
You decided that others should suffer, so you basically shot someone else its foot.


Nope wrong again, we voted in a referenda


Dutchy wrote:
So that irritates the heck out of me with your attitude and you spectacular missing the point each and every time. But I understand that you cannot admit any of that to yourself, if you did grasp that, you would see that you are being very hypocritical.


Nothing hypocritical in the Government doing the honourable thing in respecting the people’s vote
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 601
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:50 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Yeah, great. You were the only trying to introduce a doubt about this outcome, but whatever.


No not really; just sharing what had transpired between the Commons & Lords, there was always a risk that the Lords would not pass the WAB

But if you want to present it as some sort of conspiracy theory be my guest :rotfl:

Grizzly410 wrote:
Did you find some time to elaborate on the economic transformation of UK the Brexit will enable?
What the "period of adjustment" consists in?
In what aspect would UK, will be better?

Your words 6 days ago , again :
#2289
A101 wrote:
UK joined the EEC/EU the Australian, New Zealand and Canadian economies transformed after a period of adjustment. The UK to will go through a period of adjustment and we will be all the better for it.


I thought it was fairly straight forward to what I have said. Are you suggesting that when the UK joined the EEC that it did not have an affect on the Commonwealth Nations?

As for a period of adjustment you do not need to be a Rhodes Scholar to figure that one out that there has to be some period of adjustment. Are you expecting an in-depth analysis when we do not even know the terms of the future relationship will be with the EU and other various nations

I’m not putting to much stock on the latest analysis by the IMF nor have I read the projected report, but it has been picked up by various media outlets that they are expecting the UK economy to grow faster than the EU post Brexit, make of that what you will.

Personally I think the negotiations team should make the priority to join TPP-11 pending how the talks go with the EU as I’m expecting to many demands from EU


As you talked about “period of adjustment” for the UK, like Commonwealth Nations when they “transformed” their economy, I thought you at least had an idea on what kind of transformation the UK will experience ! Moreover if you feel it will be better !
But if you just don’t have a clue, maybe you could use a bit more conditional rather than being so affirmative.

No need for in-depth analysis, on the contrary, “transformation” suggest a big shift on what today UK economy is.
As Service sector is the pilar I assume a “transformation” means this sector will be affected and should be less important for future-UK (if it takes an higher portion you cannot talk about transformation), in which case what sector will flourish to compensate ?

Personally I just can’t see how adding trade barriers with the bloc with which it realize 45% of total export and more than 50% of total import can do any good to a country economy….

Which brings me to your last comment (no, not your joke about the Trans-Pacific-Partnership for a country seating in the East Atlantic), you are expecting too many demands from EU ? In fact you don’t have to expect anything because EU position is absolutely transparent and accessible to everybody.
I posted up-thread the Barnier’s team agenda, and after all meetings they released slides explaining the EU position for each and every aspects of the negotiation to come. Architecture and legal nature of the partnership, governance, mobility of persons, UK participation in EU programmes, Foreign policy, security, defence, and on and on.
https://bit.ly/2upbWnR
Last edited by Grizzly410 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

pffff it's all everybody's fault, except for Brexit. Exporting Brexit problems to other countries, no problem, buying a car and then end up paying more because of Brexit, buyers problem, etc. etc. etc. Must be nice to blame everything and everyone else. A question though, when will it because of Brexit?


Good god, you really have no clue to what I wrote. Just going off on the broken record it’s everybody’s else fault when I have not said anything of that nature.

As I posted before the UK is in vassalage state so there should be no price rise because of Brexit, you showed the consumer getting upset because of a disclaimer, I merely pointed out it should not affect him/her as they should receive the vehicle in April/May the transition period ends in December so should not be affected by the disclaimer

I also pointed out the consumer can also negotiate as part of the deal if the vehicle is delivered after the transition period if Mercedes can waive the increase if they do not want to lose sales but this has to be negotiated at time of sale and written into the contract.


So can you please show me where I blamed everyone else please.


yourself (-and noviorbis77 for that matter), go one step further, you are leaving the UK altogether, so whatever happens, doesn't affect you at all.


Where have I said that I am leaving the UK?
 
windy95
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:37 pm

8 days left before it is official. Congrats Boris.


https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/0 ... arliament/
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 pm

windy95 wrote:
8 days left before it is official. Congrats Boris.


https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/0 ... arliament/


Our last weekend of membership of this wretched union.
 
A101
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:12 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
As you talked about “period of adjustment” for the UK, like Commonwealth Nations when they “transformed” their economy, I thought you at least had an idea on what kind of transformation the UK will experience ! Moreover if you feel it will be better !


The transformation for the UK is to become a truly independent nation in which it decides policy in the interest of the UK, unlike the EU which have competing interests that have to be modified over a larger group, being independent means if something is not in the interests of the UK the government can unilaterally decide move away from it or not be a part of from the beginning

Grizzly410 wrote:
But if you just don’t have a clue, maybe you could use a bit more conditional rather than being so affirmative.


I call it as I see it.


Grizzly410 wrote:
No need for in-depth analysis, on the contrary, “transformation” suggest a big shift on what today UK economy is.
As Service sector is the pilar I assume a “transformation” means this sector will be affected and should be less important for future-UK (if it takes an higher portion you cannot talk about transformation), in which case what sector will flourish to compensate ?


Exiting the EU will be a transformation of UK across all facets of society, the UK will place economic and policy reforms overtime and retreat from protectionist mentality of the EU, it then up to free enterprise to compete on the global markets. I don’t expect to happen overnight that’s not how market reforms happen. There will be winners and losers free enterprise has to make the adjustments it’s something that should be happening regardless laws change the market changes.





Grizzly410 wrote:
Personally I just can’t see how adding trade barriers with the bloc with which it realize 45% of total export and more than 50% of total import can do any good to a country economy….


The point of leaving is not to create road blocks if that can be helped, the point is reforming our domestic and foreign policy that can help expand our competitiveness on the global market and not continue the over reliance on EU trade


Grizzly410 wrote:
Which brings me to your last comment (no, not your joke about the Trans-Pacific-Partnership for a country seating in the East Atlantic),


Trade happens on a global scale, before the UJ joined the EEC where do you think a fair chunk of goods were coming from certainly not Europe

Grizzly410 wrote:
you are expecting too many demands from EU ?


Yep I certainly am hence I think that the UK should priorities other trade deals over the EU

Grizzly410 wrote:
In fact you don’t have to expect anything because EU position is absolutely transparent and accessible to everybody.
I posted up-thread the Barnier’s team agenda, and after all meetings they released slides explaining the EU position for each and every aspects of the negotiation to come. Architecture and legal nature of the partnership, governance, mobility of persons, UK participation in EU programmes, Foreign policy, security, defence, and on and on.


You only have to read the pressure coming from the EU in the media to know that it’s not in the EU self interests to let the UK reform it’s entire domestic and foreign policy. The EU doesn’t want another competitor and a example of a former member excelling once it broke free from Brussels.

Australia/New Zealand had to make some hard reforms when the UK joined the EEC yes they underwent some pain with Hawke/Keating reforms in the 80’s but it was those early reforms and continued to look in and outside that has given them the prosperity they have currently enjoyed for the last 20-30 years
 
gkirk
Posts: 23462
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:12 pm

The UK as an entity is dead. Freedom for Scotland working with our European family
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:36 am

I hope you Brexiteers don’t think you’re going to get a trade deal with the USA anytime soon. The absolute soonest you could get anything approved would be fall of 2021, and more likely late 2022, early 2023 after the midterms.
 
A101
Posts: 3560
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:59 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
I hope you Brexiteers don’t think you’re going to get a trade deal with the USA anytime soon. The absolute soonest you could get anything approved would be fall of 2021, and more likely late 2022, early 2023 after the midterms.


Was under no illusions on when a trade deal would be signed off by anyone. The US is one of the MRA’s signed off with the UK.

I also know that there most likely will be no agreement UK/EU but I’m still glad that there will be no extension
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 13199
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:43 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
windy95 wrote:
8 days left before it is official. Congrats Boris.


https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/0 ... arliament/


Our last weekend of membership of this wretched union.


Didn't know that the UK was going to be dissolved as of next week.

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