Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:56 pm

Well done to BJ for rejecting Nigel the racist today.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:28 am

Now they are talking about students who voted multiple times in the last election,is this fake news?
I find it hard to believe that with all the investigations of the last election that no one picked up on this, were the investigation done with blinders on?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ystem.html
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:45 am

par13del wrote:
Now they are talking about students who voted multiple times in the last election,is this fake news?
I find it hard to believe that with all the investigations of the last election that no one picked up on this, were the investigation done with blinders on?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ystem.html


Given each constituency does its own counting and all checking is done on paper, I think it's actually very difficult to stop somebody from voting twice in different constituencies. AFAIK, there's no nationwide cross checking to verify that "Lucy" only voted once (and suspect it's way too difficult and costly to do so). How would you expect an investigation to spot that a person has voted twice in separate constituencies? There are a lot of people called "John Smith" in the UK.

On the other hand, I'd be amazed if such behaviour is very widespread.

All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:25 am

scbriml wrote:
All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.


It's always amusing to listen to the same people complaining about ID numbers being an unacceptable violation of privacy then complain about how easy is to vote fraudulently.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:12 am

JJJ wrote:
scbriml wrote:
All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.


It's always amusing to listen to the same people complaining about ID numbers being an unacceptable violation of privacy then complain about how easy is to vote fraudulently.


Well if you are legitimate in the UK and pay your income tax or have a UK pension you already have an ID number, it’s called a National Insurance number. But I checked up on registering at 2 addresses apparently it perfectly legal which I’m surprised at. Really don’t know why they allow that to go on, not hard to do a postal vote when you know you won’t be in your electorate come Election Day already sent for one as I will be in Australia on Election Day

https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:06 pm

JJJ wrote:
scbriml wrote:
All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.


It's always amusing to listen to the same people complaining about ID numbers being an unacceptable violation of privacy then complain about how easy is to vote fraudulently.


The thing is, even with a form of ID (doesn't matter what it is), how are you going to stop someone voting twice in different constituencies, when they're registered to vote in both? As long as the only checking done involves crossing out your name on a sheet of paper, it's very difficult to stop.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:01 pm

scbriml wrote:
JJJ wrote:
scbriml wrote:
All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.


It's always amusing to listen to the same people complaining about ID numbers being an unacceptable violation of privacy then complain about how easy is to vote fraudulently.


The thing is, even with a form of ID (doesn't matter what it is), how are you going to stop someone voting twice in different constituencies, when they're registered to vote in both? As long as the only checking done involves crossing out your name on a sheet of paper, it's very difficult to stop.


Because there is a central electoral authority that checks each number can only vote once.

Once you move and register in that address you show on that place electoral roll and are automatically removed from the previous one.

I've only had to register for voting once, when I was 18. After that every time you register yourself as living somewhere else puts you automatically in the voting station your new address belongs to.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:28 pm

In Germany I register with the city once when I move there which automatically unregisters me at my previous community and thats all it takes for pretty much all identification purposes – that registration also has the election office automatically sending me my election card which I can either use in the assigned polling place or to request postal voting with no need to maintain any additional voting registration because that is not needed any more.

It is completely unproblematic and election fraud is effectively unheard of. Plus, of course, every vote counts across the entire electoral area (local, regional or nationally) because of the proportional representation.

The mandatory registration mechanism is also a pretty effective brake on illegal immigration because you need a proper registration for pretty much everything and it is much more difficult to get hy without that than it is in the UK or in the US, which is why that issue is actually just a relatively marginal one here, all attempts of the AfD to completely misrepresent it notwithstanding.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:38 pm

In sweden no registration is needed. You get sutomatically right to vote in the district where you live or using a voting card coming by post if you are away.

Id card is needed in the polling station. Plsin and simple.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:39 pm

Farage is threathening Boris Johnson... Will be an interesting fight to watch this election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/01/farage-to-johnson-join-forces-or-brexit-party-will-contest-every-seat
 
kaitak
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 pm

LJ wrote:
arage is threathening Boris Johnson... Will be an interesting fight to watch this election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... every-seat


Farage is really just showing his colours now. What he is pushing for is incredibly damaging and I think that this can easily be proven during the election campaign; furthermore, the Brexit candidates (from what I've seen so far) are an incredible bunch of kooks and nutjobs, and will probably not stand up to scrutiny. Then there are the backers of the party, not to mention Farage's closeness to Trump. I think we'll hear a lot more about that - and their full agenda. Possibly (and hopefully) this will be their last stand.

That said, they may well be able to do some damage to the Tories and that will almost certainly help the other parties. Their involvement will make this a very interesting fight.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:59 pm

olle wrote:
In sweden no registration is needed. You get sutomatically right to vote in the district where you live or using a voting card coming by post if you are away.

Id card is needed in the polling station. Plsin and simple.


The same in The Netherlands. You get your voting card automatically in the mail. But indeed you need to have some ID card with you, but I don't think it is a problem in The Netherlands.

The government does know quite a lot about you, so why is this registration necessary.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:46 am

I have been in Lisbon, Portugal since Tuesday and when chatting up with people from UK & Ireland, they don't want to talk about Brexit as they tend to hate it, tired of the madness around it, fear how it will affect them and blame all the idiot politicians.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:29 am

ltbewr wrote:
I have been in Lisbon, Portugal since Tuesday and when chatting up with people from UK & Ireland, they don't want to talk about Brexit as they tend to hate it, tired of the madness around it, fear how it will affect them and blame all the idiot politicians.


I think whole EU27 is.

But EU do not want the one throwing UK out. Also this mess is slowly killing the extreme right parties or changing them. UK brexit party is the best ever happend many countries. It is even solving the polish problem.

So EU27 have everything to gain by letting UK suffer another year. It also means that holland and France take a lot of high skilled jobs right now from UK.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:54 am

What is also interesting is the decrease of exportbfrom Europe to UK and exports from UK to EU. Business adjusts fast to the fact that UK will not be part of SM.

What we do not see is if services is effected the same way. That is the biggest UK export and what is seen is that job market in benelux and france see many UK companies moving services there. It will take around 2-5 years to see if a major change is happening right now.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:03 am

ltbewr wrote:
They don't want to talk about Brexit as they tend to hate it, tired of the madness around it, fear how it will affect them and blame all the idiot politicians.
Too simple to blame the politicians. A country gets the government it deserves. If the Brits genuinely want to end this mess they know what to do.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:11 am

olle wrote:
So EU27 have everything to gain by letting UK suffer another year. It also means that holland and France take a lot of high skilled jobs right now from UK.


This whole Brexit thing isn't good for the EU and dragging it out is bad all around.
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
So EU27 have everything to gain by letting UK suffer another year. It also means that holland and France take a lot of high skilled jobs right now from UK.


This whole Brexit thing isn't good for the EU and dragging it out is bad all around.

Really, if that were the case, the EU who has all the leverage and the UK who are too small to have any leverage would have settled it a long time ago, Article 50 24 months is a suggestion, if the deal is struck in 3 months....go.
The bottom line for the EU is that it is irrelevant what the UK does as they are still a member and have to follow all the rules even if they hold their nose while doing it. Due to Article 50 filing, they no longer partake in decision making, and even if they do to some degree, how much consideration will their thoughts / ideas be given?
The UK on the other hand faces a death of a thousands cuts or the frog in a pot of cold water on a hot stove, if they leave, by that time the EU would have further insulated themselves from all things UK. Its not about leverage for the UK but having an economy with services that EU citizens may and I say may want to pay higher prices to use. The additional bad blood they are creating will ensure that UK products are shunned by the average EU citizen.
My opinion only, no sources.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:25 pm

Of course both EU and UK looses.
But EU seems to have accepted its losses based on the fact the alternative is so much worse with destroyed SM and other countries like scandinavia being the biggest netcontributers per capita.

EU is based as a peace project and its main tools is to increase living standards in south and east Europe in combination to give access to SM

This was the strategic missunderstanding of Brexiteers and UK.

Brexiteers defined red lines that was in total violation of central interests of the rest of EU.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:11 pm

kaitak wrote:
Farage is really just showing his colours now. What he is pushing for is incredibly damaging and I think that this can easily be proven during the election campaign; furthermore, the Brexit candidates (from what I've seen so far) are an incredible bunch of kooks and nutjobs, and will probably not stand up to scrutiny. Then there are the backers of the party, not to mention Farage's closeness to Trump. I think we'll hear a lot more about that - and their full agenda. Possibly (and hopefully) this will be their last stand.


I think you underestimate the power of populist parties. All those things didn't prevent voters on continental Europe to vote for similar populist parties. The only benefit in the UK is that it doesn't count how many votes you get, but in how many consistuencies you're the biggest. This means that it will be difficult to get seats. However, this makes the whole election muich more unpredictable. I think the commentary in the Guardian was spot on when it said that:
The more Nigel Farage plays Brexiters for fools, the more they seem to like it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/02/more-nigel-farage-plays-brexiters-for-fools-more-they-seem-to-like-it

Continental Europe has shown how populist parties can become the biggest in just a decisive moment. Farage will try to create such a moment and I think he is capable of doing so. If he will succeed is a different matter.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:00 pm

Brexiteers knew that full well. The extreme fundamental Brexiteers want a clean cut with everything that goes with it, thee only reason is why, what is their motivation? We all know the bs they have been telling, so that is not the real reason.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Brexiteers knew that full well. The extreme fundamental Brexiteers want a clean cut with everything that goes with it, thee only reason is why, what is their motivation? We all know the bs they have been telling, so that is not the real reason.




The only goal I can see is a Singapore on the border of EU.

The extreme left with corbyn also want to leave in order to create a venezuela on the border of EU.

Neither is poossible within EU.

National reason is used to talk to English working class as enabler in combination with the immigration card. They do not see that it is pretty high chance that the national card also mean end of UK. The Brexiteers fooled by the Extreme right do not seem to understand that open the box of pandora might create a new reality within this generation.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The extreme fundamental Brexiteers want a clean cut with everything that goes with it,

What they're trying to sell is about as "clean" as a leg amputation with a chain saw.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:59 am

scbriml wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
all votes actually matter. Even if they don't change who you MP is, it will send a signal:


Meh, you've got to be really determined to "send a message" and vote against a sitting MP in a seat with a 20,000 majority. On a cold, wet and possibly even snowy mid December day. You may not think it's wasted, but plenty do, with justification.


Unfortunately you're probably right. But in my experience from having worked in politics, unless the Tories and Labour are complete idiots they will look very close at the results and try to find any trends in the voting behaviour.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:23 am

And seen from the EU, the result of this vote will not change anything as both Corbyn/Momentum gang and BoJo/Cummings want to leave.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:36 am

Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:45 am

Not a chance I think. I have the feeling that in England there is a deep anti EU feeling that needs to vent off.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:11 pm

Olddog wrote:
And seen from the EU, the result of this vote will not change anything as both Corbyn/Momentum gang and BoJo/Cummings want to leave.



This is very true. EU has accepted and counts its losses.

Time to see forward after UK has left by its own will and means.

UK now need to find its own way forward and unite the union or face a future with huge changes like united Ireland and or Scottish exit from UK.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Lib dems have ruled out a coalition with any other parties. They could help them get the legislation through however.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
Given each constituency does its own counting and all checking is done on paper, I think it's actually very difficult to stop somebody from voting twice in different constituencies. AFAIK, there's no nationwide cross checking to verify that "Lucy" only voted once (and suspect it's way too difficult and costly to do so). How would you expect an investigation to spot that a person has voted twice in separate constituencies? There are a lot of people called "John Smith" in the UK.

On the other hand, I'd be amazed if such behaviour is very widespread.

All that said, I would like to see voting in the UK move into the 21st century.


One quirk is that if you're a student living away from home you can vote either in your home constituency or the constituency you've moved to. You're not supposed to vote in both, but I too struggle to see how it can be spotted that you've voted twice in different constituencies. A recent poll indicated that the vast majority of students voted in their home constituencies, so there's an argument for changing the law so that you can only vote in your home constituency if you're living away at university.

I too would like to see voting modernise and it's why I don't understand some of the opposition to providing ID to vote. You need ID for other things such as collecting a parcel from a Royal Mail Sorting Office and at the moment, all you have to do is say your name and that's it - no need to show ID or the poll card you get posted leading up to it. I don't believe there are widespread cases of voter fraud in the UK, but I don't see that as a reason to have a lax system of verifying ID when you go to a Polling Station.

Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Both Labour and the Lib Dems have ruled out entering coalitions and the Tories have told Farage where to go with his offer to form a "leave alliance", plus I suspect the DUP are too hacked off with Boris to sign up to another "confidence-and-supply" deal if the arithmetic meant the Tories needed the DUP to get majority votes in Parliament for things such as the Queen's Speech or the Budget.

It wouldn't surprise me if, in the event of a hung parliament, Labour are more likely to grant the SNP a Section 30 request for a second Scottish independence referendum in return for support over a Queen's Speech, Budget etc. if the arithmetic meant a Labour/SNP majority was possible. However, there's been mixed messages over what Labour would do in the event of a Section 30 request being put in. It would also not surprise me if the Lib Dems back Labour with their pledge to hold a referendum despite the Lib Dems' policy being to scrap Brexit altogether.

All the talk about refusing to form coalitions are just a ploy to boost their support. If the arithmetic produces no clear majority for one particular party, you can bet all parties will be looking at what they need to do to get others on board in an attempt to command a majority and claim a right to govern. The last time we had this sort of scrambling was in 2010.

One poignant quote Nick Clegg came out with in the immediate aftermath of 2010 is that the Tories should have the first shot at attempting to form a government by way of them being the party with the most seats. It wouldn't surprise me if whoever has the most seats but not a majority will parrot the same line in an attempt to claim they have the right to have the first attempt at forming a government.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:06 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Lib dems have ruled out a coalition with any other parties. They could help them get the legislation through however.


We'll see what happens after the election. If everybody is going to rule out a coalition, then there might be another election quite shortly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Exactly. I have had a couple of people question the point of LibDems position of revoke, but it makes sense to me as while unlikely they will actually gain a majority on that ticket, if they get a sizeable result then discussion of revocation or at least revoke as a referendum option becomes unavoidable.

It's there not as a guaranteed result but more as a statement and an option for voters to make this option heard.
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Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:17 pm

More sillyness from the Govenment: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-election It's almost like they are scared of something coming out before the election.

Late last week, the Police and given the file to the CPS regarding voteleave, at last. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50276673

Would be nice if we got some proper information on both cases before we enter another election, with no changes to any electoral law. But I think that's too much to hope for.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:57 pm

Olddog wrote:
And seen from the EU, the result of this vote will not change anything as both Corbyn/Momentum gang and BoJo/Cummings want to leave.

If the Corbyn/ Momentum gang wanted to leave the EU it would have been done by now, only the BoJo/TM/Cummings gang have been able to get their members to vote in mass and they have kicked the non-conformist.
If Labour had any decent policy on Brexit / Non-Brexit / Deal Brexit / No Deal Brexit that did not involve what's in it for me now.....
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:58 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Exactly. I have had a couple of people question the point of LibDems position of revoke, but it makes sense to me as while unlikely they will actually gain a majority on that ticket, if they get a sizeable result then discussion of revocation or at least revoke as a referendum option becomes unavoidable.

It's there not as a guaranteed result but more as a statement and an option for voters to make this option heard.

Personally, I think the thought process is that everyone will do anything to ensure that Corbyn does not become PM, everything that is short of removing him as leader of the party.
The mind boggles...
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:05 pm

What sort of majority vote would it take for London to demand city state status and then join the EU? I am suspecting that something comfortably over 60% would be hard for the rest of England to resist.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
What sort of majority vote would it take for London to demand city state status and then join the EU? I am suspecting that something comfortably over 60% would be hard for the rest of England to resist.


Is this a serious proposal?
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:51 pm

Arion640 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
What sort of majority vote would it take for London to demand city state status and then join the EU? I am suspecting that something comfortably over 60% would be hard for the rest of England to resist.


Is this a serious proposal?


Yes, it is serious. Should NI and Scotland leave a next step would be Wales. Particularly after the Welch realize how much social net and economic development was dependent upon the EU. This in itself would amount to a dismemberment of the UK. London discontent with what would be left could become a serious matter.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:31 pm

There is no majority possible as there is no law/mechanism allowing such secession.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:08 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Yes, it is serious. Should NI and Scotland leave a next step would be Wales. Particularly after the Welch realize how much social net and economic development was dependent upon the EU. This in itself would amount to a dismemberment of the UK. London discontent with what would be left could become a serious matter.

What I find so hard to digest is the notion that the only reason why there are any respectable social norms in the UK is due to the EU.
Where it get's even further confusing is all the illegals who want to get to the UK because once there they can disappear in the underground economy along with the number of locals who refuse to work because the benefits they receive from the state are so great. I though the UK created the benefit society long before the EU project advanced beyond the trade group stage. I stand to be corrected.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3266
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:42 pm

The NHS is in disarray. Immigration is not just an EU problem. The UK economy was being called the sick man of Europe before joining the EU. It is easy to dismantle a nation. It is hard to put one back together. Hard line Brexiters are sowing wind, the people of the UK may reap the whirl wind.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:42 pm

Olddog wrote:
There is no majority possible as there is no law/mechanism allowing such secession.


Perhaps the City of London could. That piece of real estate has some very peculiar set of rules govern it.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:48 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
And seen from the EU, the result of this vote will not change anything as both Corbyn/Momentum gang and BoJo/Cummings want to leave.

If the Corbyn/ Momentum gang wanted to leave the EU it would have been done by now, only the BoJo/TM/Cummings gang have been able to get their members to vote in mass and they have kicked the non-conformist.
If Labour had any decent policy on Brexit / Non-Brexit / Deal Brexit / No Deal Brexit that did not involve what's in it for me now.....


Corbyn wants to strike his own deal with the EU (remain in a customs union)then take it to a referendum, does the EU have the appetite to negotiate a third deal?

Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.
 
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par13del
Posts: 9266
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:55 pm

A101 wrote:
Corbyn wants to strike his own deal with the EU (remain in a customs union)then take it to a referendum, does the EU have the appetite to negotiate a third deal?

Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.

My issue would then be, where was he and his Labour MP's when the parliament was coming up with all their indicative plans, certainly the speaker would have allowed him to present his option? Initially TM rejected his idea's, but after the parliament took over the process, he could have had his option put forward for a vote.
I think I will go look up the specifics of all the indicative votes held, his plan may well have been one of them....
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10267
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:56 pm

A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
And seen from the EU, the result of this vote will not change anything as both Corbyn/Momentum gang and BoJo/Cummings want to leave.

If the Corbyn/ Momentum gang wanted to leave the EU it would have been done by now, only the BoJo/TM/Cummings gang have been able to get their members to vote in mass and they have kicked the non-conformist.
If Labour had any decent policy on Brexit / Non-Brexit / Deal Brexit / No Deal Brexit that did not involve what's in it for me now.....


Corbyn wants to strike his own deal with the EU (remain in a customs union)then take it to a referendum, does the EU have the appetite to negotiate a third deal?

Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.


Will be a complicated vote: you can't do the First-past-the-post voting, so you either have to have a 50% plus one vote, and thus most likely in two or more rounds, or have first choice, second choice and third choice voting.

BTW it would be hilarious if the TM deal was the one coming on top.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1304
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
If the Corbyn/ Momentum gang wanted to leave the EU it would have been done by now, only the BoJo/TM/Cummings gang have been able to get their members to vote in mass and they have kicked the non-conformist.
If Labour had any decent policy on Brexit / Non-Brexit / Deal Brexit / No Deal Brexit that did not involve what's in it for me now.....


Corbyn wants to strike his own deal with the EU (remain in a customs union)then take it to a referendum, does the EU have the appetite to negotiate a third deal?

Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.


Will be a complicated vote: you can't do the First-past-the-post voting, so you either have to have a 50% plus one vote, and thus most likely in two or more rounds, or have first choice, second choice and third choice voting.

BTW it would be hilarious if the TM deal was the one coming on top.



Can’t change the system especially for this vote (if it happens)after all Governments have been voted in on far less than 50% of the vote, in actual fact election statistics taken since 1918 have shown no sitting Government has ever won more than 50% of the vote. The highest it has been is 49.7% in 1955 when the Conservative’s won, labour has won the most seats in the house In the 97 election when they won 418 seats with only 43.2% of the vote
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:05 pm

A101 wrote:
Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.


Why on Earth would he do that? If Labour negotiates a new deal, the choice would be between leaving with that deal or remaining.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 9490
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.


Why on Earth would he do that? If Labour negotiates a new deal, the choice would be between leaving with that deal or remaining.

It's a trap. A fake dodge. As recall this poster is against having a new referendum (remain or leave).
Not only would it result in none of the options having a majority, any "winner" would end up in limbo with all the other "options" being able to combine to denounce whatever choice "won".

It is dumb in so many ways.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3266
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:49 pm

On a more conciliatory note, the UK is sharply divided (as is the US). Survival of the union, the economy, and I may add the democracy, really is dependent upon moderates in both parties arriving at compromises. Many extremists are opposed to compromise. That is what makes them extremists - and in my opinion evil.

Remember the southern states in the US demanded not merely that slavery be maintained, but also that slavery be extended throughout the US and even Mexico and the rest of the Americas. War and death were the results.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Should he then put all 5 options to the electorate to decide in a future referenda if his policy is for a referenda?

All options on table

1: TM deal
2: BJ deal
3: JC deal
4: no deal
5: revoke A50

Only seems fair if he is fair dinkum.


Why on Earth would he do that? If Labour negotiates a new deal, the choice would be between leaving with that deal or remaining.

It's a trap. A fake dodge. As recall this poster is against having a new referendum (remain or leave).
Not only would it result in none of the options having a majority, any "winner" would end up in limbo with all the other "options" being able to combine to denounce whatever choice "won".

It is dumb in so many ways.

Tugg



Yep still against a second referenda, all the parties have a different view still on a Brexit no matter what happens the country will remain divided, but if we have to have another referenda as remain camp so desperately wanted all 5 options should be put to the electorate and let them decide.

Whoever gets into power then they need to to lead the country have plan on where it wants to go JC cannot do that he wants to start negotiations from afresh and leave the UK hanging for another 6-12 months while he sorts it out, to stay in a convoluted union with the EU is not leaving there is not point in leaving if that is the path. JC needs to tell us his preferred Brexit so people can actully identify with what he is proposing

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