User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9267
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:29 am

A101 wrote:
Yep still against a second referenda, all the parties have a different view still on a Brexit no matter what happens the country will remain divided, but if we have to have another referenda as remain camp so desperately wanted all 5 options should be put to the electorate and let them decide.

Whoever gets into power then they need to to lead the country have plan on where it wants to go JC cannot do that he wants to start negotiations from afresh and leave the UK hanging for another 6-12 months while he sorts it out, to stay in a convoluted union with the EU is not leaving there is not point in leaving if that is the path. JC needs to tell us his preferred Brexit so people can actully identify with what he is proposing

The problem with your list is that only 2 options are viable and under the control of the UK, Bojo deal and Revoke, everything else requires EU consent.
That has been the problem with parliament, they are coming up with deals and voting on them BEFORE the EU advises if they are viable - as in not violate the 4 pillars - or not.
The more important issue is how the vote will be framed, percentage of registered votes, winning percentage etc etc.
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:44 am

par13del wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yep still against a second referenda, all the parties have a different view still on a Brexit no matter what happens the country will remain divided, but if we have to have another referenda as remain camp so desperately wanted all 5 options should be put to the electorate and let them decide.

Whoever gets into power then they need to to lead the country have plan on where it wants to go JC cannot do that he wants to start negotiations from afresh and leave the UK hanging for another 6-12 months while he sorts it out, to stay in a convoluted union with the EU is not leaving there is not point in leaving if that is the path. JC needs to tell us his preferred Brexit so people can actully identify with what he is proposing

The problem with your list is that only 2 options are viable and under the control of the UK, Bojo deal and Revoke, everything else requires EU consent.
That has been the problem with parliament, they are coming up with deals and voting on them BEFORE the EU advises if they are viable - as in not violate the 4 pillars - or not.
The more important issue is how the vote will be framed, percentage of registered votes, winning percentage etc etc.


Actually 4 options are viable TM’s deal, BJ’s deal the EU have agreed in principle, no deal dosnt need EU consent and neither does revoke as the ECJ have already said that we can revoke, only JC deal has to be worked out but that’s also depends on if the EU will negotiate with JC
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9267
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:10 am

A101 wrote:
Actually 4 options are viable TM’s deal, BJ’s deal the EU have agreed in principle, no deal dosnt need EU consent and neither does revoke as the ECJ have already said that we can revoke, only JC deal has to be worked out but that’s also depends on if the EU will negotiate with JC

Parliament passed a law against No Deal, hence I did not include that option, but yes, technically that is under their control, its just that I do not see it as viable since there is no majority in the parliament for such an option, even among the Tories, the question would never make it to the ballot. The EU replaced the TM deal with the Bojo deal, the UK cannot reinstate TM deal's without the EU consent, JC cannot have a deal for the voters to approve before getting the EU consent, so that how I got 2, Bojo or revoke.
Based on the last referendum where the words Yes and No had so many different meanings, the questions / options for the next vote have to or should be as clear as can be (not mud), so options not fully under the UK control should not be on the ballot, at least in my opinion, such would only replace the existing confusion with new confusion.
It is however, a sure fire way to try to put the EU in the penalty box....
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:06 am

There's only one option available at the moment and that's revoking A50.

BJ sent his deal to limbo (the bill for it dies once parliament dissolves for the GE).
TM's deal was superseded by BJ's lesser deal.
Parliament has legislated to stop No Deal.
That leaves one.
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:38 am

par13del wrote:
A101 wrote:
Actually 4 options are viable TM’s deal, BJ’s deal the EU have agreed in principle, no deal dosnt need EU consent and neither does revoke as the ECJ have already said that we can revoke, only JC deal has to be worked out but that’s also depends on if the EU will negotiate with JC

Parliament passed a law against No Deal, hence I did not include that option, but yes, technically that is under their control, its just that I do not see it as viable since there is no majority in the parliament for such an option, even among the Tories, the question would never make it to the ballot. The EU replaced the TM deal with the Bojo deal, the UK cannot reinstate TM deal's without the EU consent, JC cannot have a deal for the voters to approve before getting the EU consent, so that how I got 2, Bojo or revoke.
Based on the last referendum where the words Yes and No had so many different meanings, the questions / options for the next vote have to or should be as clear as can be (not mud), so options not fully under the UK control should not be on the ballot, at least in my opinion, such would only replace the existing confusion with new confusion.
It is however, a sure fire way to try to put the EU in the penalty box....


Well no nothing has been actully passed stopping no deal the Benn Act merely delayed it, the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 only allows a new exit date of 31 January 2020 or later if parliment agrees. As it stands unless Parliament pass a new extension date or the UK/EU agrees on a deal no deal is stil the default position come 31 January 2020, The Act is to make further provision in connection with the period for negotiations for withdrawing from the European Union, it does not stop no deal

If there is a change of Government whoever is in power unless they revoke by the 31 January still have to get the EU to agree to extend beyond that date for the referenda or for new deal negotiations if they can’t then the default no deal applies.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8947
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:44 am

As long as the UK asks for an extension, it will get one. There is no drawback to this for the EU. But hopefully by January next year, the UK will have a government that honours the will of the people and delivers a clean Brexit.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:35 am

A101 wrote:
if we have to have another referenda as remain camp so desperately wanted all 5 options should be put to the electorate and let them decide.


There are no five options! :shakehead:

TM’s deal has been superseded by BJ’s deal. BJ’s deal would be superseded by JC’s deal. There is only one deal on the table. Different versions of a deal, but one and only one on offer. No deal has been overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament and no sane person wants it.

Labour’s position is a fudge, but it’s a clear fudge - negotiate a new deal then offer a “deal or remain” choice to the people.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:55 am

seahawk wrote:
As long as the UK asks for an extension, it will get one. There is no drawback to this for the EU. But hopefully by January next year, the UK will have a government that honours the will of the people and delivers a clean Brexit.


That’s true to a degree but if we get another hung parliament pending the numbers each could in theory cancel each other out, I just hope there is a clear conclusion either way.

scbriml wrote:
There are no five options! :shakehead:

TM’s deal has been superseded by BJ’s deal. BJ’s deal would be superseded by JC’s deal. There is only one deal on the table. Different versions of a deal, but one and only one on offer. No deal has been overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament and no sane person wants it.

Labour’s position is a fudge, but it’s a clear fudge - negotiate a new deal then offer a “deal or remain” choice to the people.




Just because Parliament that cant decide does not mean the electorate can’t decide on the deals in which the EU has given provisional agreement. If you give the electorate a choice there is 5 choices if JC can get one.

Will JC still seek a referenda if he can’t make a deal with the EU?

What’s the competing deal going to be then?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:17 am

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
As long as the UK asks for an extension, it will get one. There is no drawback to this for the EU. But hopefully by January next year, the UK will have a government that honours the will of the people and delivers a clean Brexit.


That’s true to a degree but if we get another hung parliament pending the numbers each could in theory cancel each other out, I just hope there is a clear conclusion either way.

scbriml wrote:
There are no five options! :shakehead:

TM’s deal has been superseded by BJ’s deal. BJ’s deal would be superseded by JC’s deal. There is only one deal on the table. Different versions of a deal, but one and only one on offer. No deal has been overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament and no sane person wants it.

Labour’s position is a fudge, but it’s a clear fudge - negotiate a new deal then offer a “deal or remain” choice to the people.




Just because Parliament that cant decide does not mean the electorate can’t decide on the deals in which the EU has given provisional agreement. If you give the electorate a choice there is 5 choices if JC can get one.

Will JC still seek a referenda if he can’t make a deal with the EU?

What’s the competing deal going to be then?


There are only two options in the hands of the Brittish, revoke and no-deal, the other deals are subject to approval by the EU. It hasn't made it to that stage yet, I won't expect a problem there, because the EU leaders are well briefed, but still.

I don't think the EU will be pleased to see the 3 deals at the ballot, though. But heck, with all the craziness we have seen from Westminster, why not. It just can't be first-past-the-post voting, otherwise, the two viable options will be: remain and hard-Brexit, voting for a deal would be quite foolish. First-past-the-post voting, in this case, will give you one of the extremes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bgm
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:21 am

seahawk wrote:
As long as the UK asks for an extension, it will get one. There is no drawback to this for the EU. But hopefully by January next year, the UK will have a government that honours the will of the people and delivers a clean Brexit.


'Clean' Brexit? :rotfl:

There will be nothing 'clean' about the process at all. It will be messy, expensive, and detrimental to both the UK and the EU. The only thing is will achieve is temporarily reducing the redness of the gammon-faced Brexiteers, only for that redness to return once they realise what an utter clusterf**k it's going to turn their country into, but by that time it'll be too late and the damage will have been done.
OK boomer.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:23 am

Seahawk is just leading you on......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 am

A101 wrote:
Just because Parliament that cant decide does not mean the electorate can’t decide on the deals in which the EU has given provisional agreement. If you give the electorate a choice there is 5 choices if JC can get one.

What’s the competing deal going to be then?


There are not five options. There is no ‘competing deal’. There is and will only ever be one deal on the table. TM’s deal has gone, just as BJ’s will be if JC negotiates a new Norway-like deal. Then it’s a simple choice - leave with Labour’s deal or remain. Anyone who thinks Labour would offer a choice of ‘no deal’ in a people’s vote has been asleep for the last couple of years.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:02 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Just because Parliament that cant decide does not mean the electorate can’t decide on the deals in which the EU has given provisional agreement. If you give the electorate a choice there is 5 choices if JC can get one.

What’s the competing deal going to be then?


There are not five options. There is no ‘competing deal’. There is and will only ever be one deal on the table. TM’s deal has gone, just as BJ’s will be if JC negotiates a new Norway-like deal. Then it’s a simple choice - leave with Labour’s deal or remain. Anyone who thinks Labour would offer a choice of ‘no deal’ in a people’s vote has been asleep for the last couple of years.


Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3094
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:03 pm

FWIW - Norway-like is not the same as joining EFTA....

Anyway, seems like the fantastic trade deal between the UK and the US the Tories (and N. Farage) are dreaming of as the price to break fully with the EU's SM already delivers some nice bus ads: apparently it would cost no less han £500M a week to the NHS in extra spending… for exactly the same as today! :o

Let's fund the NHS instead, right?
Or maybe just the pockets of big pharma…
and a £150M cut on top, just for the sake of some more austerity? ;)
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:08 pm

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Just because Parliament that cant decide does not mean the electorate can’t decide on the deals in which the EU has given provisional agreement. If you give the electorate a choice there is 5 choices if JC can get one.

What’s the competing deal going to be then?


There are not five options. There is no ‘competing deal’. There is and will only ever be one deal on the table. TM’s deal has gone, just as BJ’s will be if JC negotiates a new Norway-like deal. Then it’s a simple choice - leave with Labour’s deal or remain. Anyone who thinks Labour would offer a choice of ‘no deal’ in a people’s vote has been asleep for the last couple of years.


Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA


Norway can reject UK to join EFTA all it wants it doesn't mean EU can't offer UK more or less same conditions for a "Norway type Brexit"...
Remember the famous staircase graphic, all outcome are achievable and the higher UK decides to climb, the happier the EU will be to renegotiate the deal.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:27 pm

A101 wrote:
Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA


Not quite.

A Norwegian MP and several others have said they do not believe the UK should join purely because they are worried about the impact it will have on their relationship with the EU. The PM (whose opinion probably matters more on this) has just said they would examine an application if one was made...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-plan
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-option

A101 wrote:
Will JC still seek a referenda if he can’t make a deal with the EU?


It will probably be hard for Corbyn not to offer a referendum whether he gets a new deal or not. A lot of Labour members and MP's are remainers, are against a no-deal Brexit and a good chunk of his MP's are probably biding their time before attempting to remove him as leader, so Corbyn won't have much room for manoeuvre if he went back on the referendum promise even if he tried to say it was only dependent on him getting a new deal.

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well if Corbyn wins and need the LibDems to get the majority, there might be a people's vote in the near UK's future.


Exactly. I have had a couple of people question the point of LibDems position of revoke, but it makes sense to me as while unlikely they will actually gain a majority on that ticket, if they get a sizeable result then discussion of revocation or at least revoke as a referendum option becomes unavoidable.

It's there not as a guaranteed result but more as a statement and an option for voters to make this option heard.


Indeed - it's an option for voters to send a message if they're against leaving the EU and if the government isn't offering a second referendum on the subject with that as an option. It's also given the Lib Dems a clear stance above most other parties on the subject.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:15 pm

A101 wrote:
Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA


So you've gone from five options to none? :rotfl:

Corbyn can negotiate a Norway-like deal with the EU, it wouldn't require Norway's approval. And who, exactly, has said they won't let the UK join EFTA? Are they like the French politicians who said no new Brexit extension, just before France approved one? Spoken words for domestic consumption often don't match real-world actions. You, of all people, should know that by now. :wink2:

So, to repeat, a Labour Government's plan is to negotiate a new deal and give the public the choice of leaving the EU with that deal or remaining. You'd better sharpen your voting pencil.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:55 pm

The EU is not a self-service and the UK can't have a referendum for a menu that does not exist.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
JJJ
Posts: 3361
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:10 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
A101 wrote:
Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA


Not quite.

A Norwegian MP and several others have said they do not believe the UK should join purely because they are worried about the impact it will have on their relationship with the EU.


Not just the relationship with the EU. The internal balance of EFTA would be massively disrupted because the UK is much bigger than either of the current members.

Would the UK stay for the long run? Does the UK share the same goals as Norway, Switzerland, etc. as far as their position within Europe, relationship with the EU, trade, etc.? Will the UK accept a diminished role relative to its economic weight relative to Norway, Switzerland, etc. in the EFTA when it constantly grumbled about being overruled in the EU?

Current members will need assurances, and knowing the Swiss they'd probably put it down to a referendum.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9739
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:21 pm

I'm beginning to think those Facebook memes about the UK still negotiating its Brexit withdrawal in 2060 are becoming more realistic!

I am hopeful that (a) the Brexit party, though moribund, will split the Tory vote and (b) that a grand coalition with Labour (under a more future focused leader, like Benn or Starmer), the LibDems, possibly even the SNP, if they are open to a new Brexit referendum instead of an independence referendum, might win the day. Probably a vain hope, but I think that this election offers a real chance to take a step back and look at the reality, not the nonsense that was sold during the last referendum.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3361
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:52 pm

kaitak wrote:
I am hopeful that (a) the Brexit party, though moribund, will split the Tory vote and (b) that a grand coalition with Labour (under a more future focused leader, like Benn or Starmer), the LibDems, possibly even the SNP, if they are open to a new Brexit referendum instead of an independence referendum, might win the day. Probably a vain hope, but I think that this election offers a real chance to take a step back and look at the reality, not the nonsense that was sold during the last referendum.


Sinn Fein apparently will be standing down in some Irish constituencies to boost pro-remain parties chances of getting an MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 84491.html

Small thing on the grand scheme of things, but shows how serious this election is to everyone.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2493
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
kaitak wrote:
I am hopeful that (a) the Brexit party, though moribund, will split the Tory vote and (b) that a grand coalition with Labour (under a more future focused leader, like Benn or Starmer), the LibDems, possibly even the SNP, if they are open to a new Brexit referendum instead of an independence referendum, might win the day. Probably a vain hope, but I think that this election offers a real chance to take a step back and look at the reality, not the nonsense that was sold during the last referendum.


Sinn Fein apparently will be standing down in some Irish constituencies to boost pro-remain parties chances of getting an MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 84491.html

Small thing on the grand scheme of things, but shows how serious this election is to everyone.


Ah, there is a load of it going on!

UUP are standing down in North Belfast to retain Nigel Dodds (pro-Brexit)
SDLP are standing down in North Belfast to get Nigel Dodds out

SDLP & Sinn Fein are standing down in East Belfast to get Gavin Robinson (pro-Brexit) out
Sinn Fein & Green Party are standing down in South Belfast to get Emma Little-Pengelly (pro-Brexit) out
SDLP & Sinn Fein are standing down in North Down to retain Sylvia Hermon (pro-EU)
DUP standing down in Fermanagh/South Tyrone to get Michelle Gildernew out (pro-EU)


Its total tribal stuff. The DUP and UUP are typically the worst at it but the rest have decided to join them this time.
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Nothing to vote on then as that means Corbyn has to negotiate a new deal with the EU and EFTA,Norway politics has already said they will reject UK from joining EFTA


So you've gone from five options to none? :rotfl:



Nope still with 5 options as I was just responding to you’re narrative.

The remain camp has been crying foul on the question of a referenda and that leave are running scared, So put your money where your mouth is, are you scared of the result with 5 options?


scbriml wrote:
Corbyn can negotiate a Norway-like deal with the EU, it wouldn't require Norway's approval. And who, exactly, has said they won't let the UK join EFTA? Are they like the French politicians who said no new Brexit extension, just before France approved one? Spoken words for domestic consumption often don't match real-world actions. You, of all people, should know that by now. :wink2:

So, to repeat, a Labour Government's plan is to negotiate a new deal and give the public the choice of leaving the EU with that deal or remaining. You'd better sharpen your voting pencil.





Yes Corbyn can negotiate a deal where we remain in the SM/CU by agree with the EU, don’t see how that is leaving, but we will not have an independent trade deals parliamentary and judicial sovereignty we will still be bound by EU lawmaking.and continue making membership fees.

The EU is employing bully boy tactics on the Swiss in their dispute I can just imagine Corbyn being the EU lap dog when it comes to negotiations after all remain keep saying how weak our hand is just imagine how weak JC is.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 pm

A101 wrote:
So put your money where your mouth is, are you scared of the result with 5 options?


There’s nothing to be scared of since what you’re wanting can’t happen. There is only ever one deal on the table.

A101 wrote:
Yes Corbyn can negotiate a deal where we remain in the SM/CU by agree with the EU, don’t see how that is leaving, but we will not have an independent trade deals parliamentary and judicial sovereignty we will still be bound by EU lawmaking.and continue making membership fees


So, given the choice will you vote leave with Corbyn’s deal or remain?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3361
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:40 am

Amiga500 wrote:

Its total tribal stuff. The DUP and UUP are typically the worst at it but the rest have decided to join them this time.


It's a natural child of a FPTP system, especially for polarising issues like Brexit.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:43 pm

kaitak wrote:
I am hopeful that (a) the Brexit party, though moribund, will split the Tory vote and (b) that a grand coalition with Labour (under a more future focused leader, like Benn or Starmer), the LibDems, possibly even the SNP, if they are open to a new Brexit referendum instead of an independence referendum, might win the day. Probably a vain hope, but I think that this election offers a real chance to take a step back and look at the reality, not the nonsense that was sold during the last referendum.


The SNP's price for their support will be a second Scottish independence referendum. Corbyn has indicated he wouldn't block one, but that will set him on a collision course with his party and in particular Scottish Labour.

You're also assuming the leaders are all true to their word when they say they won't get into coalitions etc., which is natural I suppose as they're trying to shore up their vote and persuading people to vote for Party A instead of voting Party B in an attempt to get someone standing for Party C out. Personally I'm not so sure about their promises and the arithmetic may cause some leaders to backtrack on earlier comments.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:11 pm

Well, the Tories are off to a flying start in the election...

- Rees-Mogg manages to insult the victims and survivors of the Grenfell Tower disaster before issuing a "sorry, not sorry" politicians' apology.

- Andrew Bridgen then has to apologise for supporting Rees-Mogg on the issue.

- Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns quits over a scandal about a former aide who sabotaged a rape trial.

And this is only the first day! :faint:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 pm

I think this thread may be in danger of morphing into a UK General Election thread rather than a Brexit one (even though Brexit will be the defining issue of the election). Should we start a separate election thread?

And yes, I'm guilty of this based on my previous post. I shall start a separate thread.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
SueD
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:27 pm

JJJ wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

Its total tribal stuff. The DUP and UUP are typically the worst at it but the rest have decided to join them this time.


It's a natural child of a FPTP system, especially for polarising issues like Brexit.


Ulster does NOT use the first past the post system but rather single transferable voting a type PR and it takes days to count !
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
I think this thread may be in danger of morphing into a UK General Election thread rather than a Brexit one (even though Brexit will be the defining issue of the election). Should we start a separate election thread?

And yes, I'm guilty of this based on my previous post. I shall start a separate thread.


Thanks, please continue to discuss the general elections here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1434559
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2493
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:13 pm

SueD wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

Its total tribal stuff. The DUP and UUP are typically the worst at it but the rest have decided to join them this time.


It's a natural child of a FPTP system, especially for polarising issues like Brexit.


Ulster does NOT use the first past the post system but rather single transferable voting a type PR and it takes days to count !


It uses FPTP for General Elections in line with the rest of the UK.

[BTW Ulster is 9 counties, Northern Ireland is 6. Not all of Ulster is within the UK]
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:49 pm

Brexit doesn’t seem to concern some companies.

Emirates boss gives a positive outlook and says the UK is the most important country on the network.

https://youtu.be/dmLm-dFipFw
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:17 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Brexit doesn’t seem to concern some companies.

Emirates boss gives a positive outlook and says the UK is the most important country on the network.

https://youtu.be/dmLm-dFipFw


You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit doesn’t seem to concern some companies.

Emirates boss gives a positive outlook and says the UK is the most important country on the network.

https://youtu.be/dmLm-dFipFw


You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit doesn’t seem to concern some companies.

Emirates boss gives a positive outlook and says the UK is the most important country on the network.

https://youtu.be/dmLm-dFipFw


You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.


Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:48 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: it sure is, but you gave it away for free, now you have to work for a living, and trade without 80plus trade deals and with the EU27, is going to be hard. But you already knew that, because it has only been told on A.net a zillion times as well as almost all experts are telling the same.

So the question is, why do you want to believe in unicorns so desperately that you are even prepared to make these kinds of statements on a public forum?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.


Who’s running away?

Retirement is not running away as usual twisting the truth to suit own agenda
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:06 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.


Who’s running away?

Retirement is not running away as usual twisting the truth to suit own agenda


Touchy, quite a funny response :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: it sure is, but you gave it away for free, now you have to work for a living, and trade without 80plus trade deals and with the EU27, is going to be hard. But you already knew that, because it has only been told on A.net a zillion times as well as almost all experts are telling the same.

So the question is, why do you want to believe in unicorns so desperately that you are even prepared to make these kinds of statements on a public forum?


There there dutchy, we all know english is the real language of the Netherlands. :bigthumbsup:
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4939
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:39 am

Arion640 wrote:
Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.


Careful then, as Trump might start putting a tariff on it...
He's certainly not a big user or fan of the English language himself.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12012
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:43 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit doesn’t seem to concern some companies.

Emirates boss gives a positive outlook and says the UK is the most important country on the network.

https://youtu.be/dmLm-dFipFw


You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


These flights exist because of large immigration to the UK from India and Pakistan. Will such immigration continue ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8947
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:06 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.


Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.


The UK is held back by the EU. The economic success will be stunning once the clear Brexit has happened. The UK will become an investor´s paradise.
 
olle
Posts: 1242
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:44 am

seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yes, and you are spectacular missing my point, not the first time, but still. These flights could be taken away and directed elsewhere if the economic growth is reversed into a severe decline because of a hard Brexit.
But then again, it might be picked up as there are many British wanting to leave the country to seek opportunities elsewhere, not in the last place A101 running to his country Australia.


Doubt it very much. You all very much underestimate great britain. We have a weapon no other country has. The anglosphere. The english language continues to be our greatest export.


The UK is held back by the EU. The economic success will be stunning once the clear Brexit has happened. The UK will become an investor´s paradise.


You realize that many investments in UK from USA, India etc has been made on the idea as UK as the English speaking door to Europe? What do you tell these companies? Sorry we change our mind?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:37 am

Francoflier wrote:
He's certainly not a big user or fan of the English language himself.


He is! He's adding new words that nobody's heard before on an almost daily basis. Bigly! :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:48 am

Looking forward to the UK becoming the Singapore of Europe.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
Arion640
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:51 am

Aesma wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You know that aircraft move around, don't you? So it's not like they are building a multi-billion Pound factory as an investment, hoping on a nice return on investment betting on the post-Brexit economy is flourishing, like the Brexitremists promised.

So please tell me that you are not clinging to hope because some airlines said this.


These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


These flights exist because of large immigration to the UK from India and Pakistan. Will such immigration continue ?


Do they? it’s nothing to do with the fact London is the most important Business hub on the planet.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17825
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:53 am

Arion640 wrote:
Looking forward to the UK becoming the Singapore of Europe.


What, full of immigrants?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:10 am

Arion640 wrote:
Looking forward to the UK becoming the Singapore of Europe.


Hate to be the one to bring it to you, but there are some major differences between Singapore and the UK. But ok, you want less freedom, less democracy and less human rights than you currently have. That is a point of view I guess......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10267
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:12 am

Arion640 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

These flights continue to support British jobs, paying british taxes, which in turn boost our economy.


These flights exist because of large immigration to the UK from India and Pakistan. Will such immigration continue ?


Do they? it’s nothing to do with the fact London is the most important Business hub on the planet.


One of the important hubs, but whose counting. More importantly, which in part is because the UK/London is in the EU. Why else do major businesses all over pleat for the UK not to amputate its foot.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DNDTUF and 44 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos