A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:50 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well I would not tar all those how voted to leave say they hope the EU fails and falls over.

Haven't you been one of the louder ones at that?


Well if you can find a quote attributed to myself good luck

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
I have said it a number of times what other members do is up to them and I certainly would not pass judgement on those who may which to do so especially when I don’t live there. It’s a known fact that both the EU-UK will want trade to continue, there are competing issues for both EU-UK now.


Yes, but Theresa May and Boris Johnson have already had to realize to their chagrin that the European Union takes its priorities on the protection of its Single Market and of all its other structures deadly serious – and everything else is secondary to that.


Illusions about that fact have been instrumental in the Brexit propaganda, but they have only been illusions all along.



Nothing is stopping you from protecting the single market,but trying to tie the UK in regulatory harmonisation is not what free trade is all about. if it comes to that I hope Boris has the good sense to tell the EU GF.

Their has been no illusions hence the very fact that No deal was very real, your mistake is that politics intervened for TM in the way of the DUP and TM was naïve enough to believe the EU words in regards to the backstop, as for BJ I know you like to believe that the EU totally got there own way in the revised WA but concessions happened on both sides to move forward, whatever you think you have achieved there still is a remote chance a customs border can run along the ROI/NI border, but on the current WA I don't see that happening as NI has the best of both worlds for trade within the internal markets of the EU/UK. Boris doesn't have to worry about a rebel parliament anymore






Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Preliminary negotiations would have been happening when the UK were rolling over the FTA with third nations and the government would have a general idea on how to proceed. I’m not overly confident that BJ will have it sort by next year but I can see his point of wanting it done by then.



And I'd want to win the Lottery...!


Everyone wants to win lottery, but that's got nothing to do with the FTA




Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
As to the SNP seeking a second indyref they have been plotting that since the first one, it was always know before the 2014 referenda that their was a possibility that the UK might vote to leave as there was a push at one stage in 2013 to hold the EU ref before the 2015 GE, so there are grounds to deny the second.


The use of false pretenses in the first IndyRef lends no justification to the denial of a new one whatsoever.


Everything is a false pretence to the majority of your lot, but if you actually read what I wrote did i state a position where I personally would deny them another vote, just stating the obvious from a government point of view, even Corbyn didn't guarantee there would be a second Scottish referenda



Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
But I also see the irony on what the SNP want and using the justification of leaving the EU, if they truly believe in being independent why would you want to join an institution that takes away its own sovereignty and have to accept that they will no longer have 100% control of making laws and judicial independence strange to me. They want independence but relinquish it at the same time that’s not independence to me no different to remaining in the UK.



Yeah, well, you're still clinging to the propaganda lies from the Brexit campaign but by now the relative weights of Ireland (fully backed by the other 26 EU members) vs. the UK should have been able to open your eyes to how national sovereignty is actually amplified by EU mambership – and no larger country had actually benefitted from that to the extent the UK had, ironically.


You keep telling yourself that...……..Oh and I remember Taoiseach Enda Kenny saying in regards to European Commission's ruling in regards to Apple that and I Quote " "This is about Ireland, it is about our people, it's about us as a sovereign nation, actually setting out what we consider our appropriate policies" seems like the European Commission had other ideas about sovereignty

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37251084

Klaus wrote:
You're now throwing your influence away in exchange for a voteless, completely dependent state followed by a still voteless state afterwards where you'll have to follow external rules and regulations to an extent the UK has never known in its recent history – with zero say on any of it!


Just like every other country who deals with the EU which also means whatever changes the government makes in regards to the sovereign area of the UK the EU has to follow as well
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:41 am

JJJ wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
olle wrote:
Madrid has problemwith a EU state breaking up and becoming memberstate. They have no problem with ex yugoslavia or slovakia etc.

They will end up looking bad one way or the other. They will either look like total hypocrites implicitly supporting Scottish independence while violently suppressing Catalan independence movement,


It's called upholding the rule of law. Sometimes it ends up ugly but there you go.

I can't blame anyone from buying the oppressed people fairytale, especially from abroad, makes for a better story.


I partly lives in Spain and England (UK) is not their best friend....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:39 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
In the last referendum for scottish independence a majorfactor to stay in uk was tomaintain eu membership.

The scottish were fooled,and has ever since voted to stay in EU. This election scotland voted for independence and eu membership. Will uk respect scotland voters?

NI is the same story but with even more complicated politics. This might not end well.


The English showed that they do not care about Northern Ireland, so that will ease the weight of the decision to leave the union.



No, that is an entirely false statement. The government carried on with the expectation on fulfilling the result of the referenda by the electorate across the UK in which it was mandated to do so when David Cameron was elected with a majority government.


Looking back at this, we can state that the EU was far more concerned with the well being of Northern Ireland than London. All the exemptions made are tailor-made because of the unique situation you Brexiteers brought Northern Ireland in. Give me 5 examples where you can proof that this is an 'entirely false statement'.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:48 pm

47 days to go.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The English showed that they do not care about Northern Ireland, so that will ease the weight of the decision to leave the union.



No, that is an entirely false statement. The government carried on with the expectation on fulfilling the result of the referenda by the electorate across the UK in which it was mandated to do so when David Cameron was elected with a majority government.


Looking back at this, we can state that the EU was far more concerned with the well being of Northern Ireland than London. All the exemptions made are tailor-made because of the unique situation you Brexiteers brought Northern Ireland in. Give me 5 examples where you can proof that this is an 'entirely false statement'.



The Corbyn played a game with smoke and mirrors last election and gained Labour votes. Labour thought they could do this again and failed.

Remainers I think realized that the risk of political blocking of any solution means that slowly the only winner or less looser of this is mainland Europe. With this result both a second referund based on a corbyn labour changing mind 5 times per month and wto based brexit is out of the window. This election also erased the power of ERG.

So the boris negotiated deal will be valid, DUP was thrown under the bus, Sean Fein will get NI more connected to ROI then UK.

Tory handling of both NI and Scotland will mean that the map of GB looks different in 25 years time. More similar to year 1000 with danelag and wessex :-)
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:46 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
47 days to go.


Does not need to be that long. Once the WA is ratified you can leave the next day.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:22 pm

Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
47 days to go.


Does not need to be that long. Once the WA is ratified you can leave the next day.


UK can leave any day it likes, has been so from day one. They asked the extension, time and time again.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:59 pm

Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
47 days to go.


Does not need to be that long. Once the WA is ratified you can leave the next day.


Have to change the law to do that, and no once the UK Parliament has ratified the agreement so to does the EU Parliament I haven’t heard when they intend to do that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:01 pm

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
47 days to go.


Does not need to be that long. Once the WA is ratified you can leave the next day.


Have to change the law to do that, and no once the UK Parliament has ratified the agreement so to does the EU Parliament I haven’t heard when they intend to do that.


after you guys.........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:12 pm

A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Polls in the UK showed Tories willing to abandon NI (and IIRC Scotland) in pursuit of Brexit. It was a legitimate political stance then, and it is now. NI and Scotland will demand the right to remain aligned with the EU.

It is my snarky observation that Wales and the City of London will follow. Remains to be seen. Astute pun. LOL



Not really abandon more let them choose, I can understand putting Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland, but really how on this earth do you think the City of London will follow the others out of the UK. The City of London is NOT a Sovereign state.


You're right about the City of London. However, they will use their connections in the Tory party and lobby extensively for a deal with the EU which doesn't jeopordise their interest too much. If that means follwoing EU law, then they'll lobbyiing for following EU law. The same will apply to other businesses. Thus the question will be, will the Tory party listen to its business friends (apart from people like Murdoch) or dares to go against corporate UK. I fear for the Tory voters the first (as if it goes wrong Boris can always earn a lot of money in the corporate world).
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:15 pm

Olddog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
47 days to go.


Does not need to be that long. Once the WA is ratified you can leave the next day.


AFAIK the withdrawal agreement stipulated only month ends with end of January being the last possible date. It didn't allow withdrawal prior to a month end. As the end of December can probably not achieved anymore, the earliest date would be January 31st 2020.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:24 pm

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Polls in the UK showed Tories willing to abandon NI (and IIRC Scotland) in pursuit of Brexit. It was a legitimate political stance then, and it is now. NI and Scotland will demand the right to remain aligned with the EU.

It is my snarky observation that Wales and the City of London will follow. Remains to be seen. Astute pun. LOL



Not really abandon more let them choose, I can understand putting Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland, but really how on this earth do you think the City of London will follow the others out of the UK. The City of London is NOT a Sovereign state.


You're right about the City of London. However, they will use their connections in the Tory party and lobby extensively for a deal with the EU which doesn't jeopordise their interest too much. If that means follwoing EU law, then they'll lobbyiing for following EU law. The same will apply to other businesses. Thus the question will be, will the Tory party listen to its business friends (apart from people like Murdoch) or dares to go against corporate UK. I fear for the Tory voters the first (as if it goes wrong Boris can always earn a lot of money in the corporate world).


for car industry and other industry in north Emgland and wales the policy right now is "fuck business". Japanese cars to EU produced in Japan, mini in Holland, Ford in ? etc.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The English showed that they do not care about Northern Ireland, so that will ease the weight of the decision to leave the union.



No, that is an entirely false statement. The government carried on with the expectation on fulfilling the result of the referenda by the electorate across the UK in which it was mandated to do so when David Cameron was elected with a majority government.


Looking back at this, we can state that the EU was far more concerned with the well being of Northern Ireland than London. All the exemptions made are tailor-made because of the unique situation you Brexiteers brought Northern Ireland in. Give me 5 examples where you can proof that this is an 'entirely false statement'.



That’s false as well, the reason the EU choose to use the GFA was because it was more advantageous to Brussels and the ROI and the narrative of breaking the GFA when it was false, it was the intention of the UK to try and make the border as seemless as possible. If the UK didn’t give a rats arse about NI then we could have just as easily made the border a customs border which would not have broken the GFA. The EU was using the border as an excuse not an act of good will.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:52 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


No, that is an entirely false statement. The government carried on with the expectation on fulfilling the result of the referenda by the electorate across the UK in which it was mandated to do so when David Cameron was elected with a majority government.


Looking back at this, we can state that the EU was far more concerned with the well being of Northern Ireland than London. All the exemptions made are tailor-made because of the unique situation you Brexiteers brought Northern Ireland in. Give me 5 examples where you can proof that this is an 'entirely false statement'.



That’s false as well, the reason the EU choose to use the GFA was because it was more advantageous to Brussels and the ROI and the narrative of breaking the GFA when it was false, it was the intention of the UK to try and make the border as seemless as possible. If the UK didn’t give a rats arse about NI then we could have just as easily made the border a customs border which would not have broken the GFA. The EU was using the border as an excuse not an act of good will.


You shouldn't just listen to your own bubble, your analysis is just to laughable. For starters, Ireland insisted on this and the EU just took notice of their concerns. You seem to conveniently forget that it isn't just a UK problem, but lots more are concerned about the Northern Irish situation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:55 pm

The EU will work to make this as easy as possible, for England as well as themselves and every one else. It is not going to be easy. How are factories and industry from Asia and the Americas who located in England because it was in the EU going to adapt? Tesla chose the easy way out and put both the factory and the R and D center in Germany.

I am deliberately using England, and it should not be contentious. England has clearly spoke that it doesn't want to be in the EU. Painfully it is also clear that not only the City of London, but just about all of London dissented (if I understand the charts BBC put out). That is an internal division which will need some skillful accommodation. Has anyone written on this?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Looking back at this, we can state that the EU was far more concerned with the well being of Northern Ireland than London. All the exemptions made are tailor-made because of the unique situation you Brexiteers brought Northern Ireland in. Give me 5 examples where you can proof that this is an 'entirely false statement'.



That’s false as well, the reason the EU choose to use the GFA was because it was more advantageous to Brussels and the ROI and the narrative of breaking the GFA when it was false, it was the intention of the UK to try and make the border as seemless as possible. If the UK didn’t give a rats arse about NI then we could have just as easily made the border a customs border which would not have broken the GFA. The EU was using the border as an excuse not an act of good will.


You shouldn't just listen to your own bubble, your analysis is just to laughable. For starters, Ireland insisted on this and the EU just took notice of their concerns. You seem to conveniently forget that it isn't just a UK problem, but lots more are concerned about the Northern Irish situation.



ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:01 pm

A101 wrote:
ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border


I think you've got a little bit too much Aussi sun, you are trying to re-write history. If the EU wanted to exploit UK weakness (easy to do, I agree with your assessment because the UK is weak in this, but you placed her there, please keep that in mind), you would be relieved of Uk's worries about Gibraltar and in Cyprus too. Cyprus = EU, Spain = EU.

You are the only one arguing that poses no problem but can't explain how. Just keep mentioning that it is no problem, seem to be enough for you and you expect people to believe you......no body does, sorry be the one to tell you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border


I think you've got a little bit too much Aussi sun, you are trying to re-write history. If the EU wanted to exploit UK weakness (easy to do, I agree with your assessment because the UK is weak in this, but you placed her there, please keep that in mind), you would be relieved of Uk's worries about Gibraltar and in Cyprus too. Cyprus = EU, Spain = EU.

You are the only one arguing that poses no problem but can't explain how. Just keep mentioning that it is no problem, seem to be enough for you and you expect people to believe you......no body does, sorry be the one to tell you.


You are the one telling the false stories on how you think the EU is the saviour of NI, and no not arguing with you just correcting you’re false posts , all you have to do is reread from the forum which will tell you the correct analysis of EU actions.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:51 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border


I think you've got a little bit too much Aussi sun, you are trying to re-write history. If the EU wanted to exploit UK weakness (easy to do, I agree with your assessment because the UK is weak in this, but you placed her there, please keep that in mind), you would be relieved of Uk's worries about Gibraltar and in Cyprus too. Cyprus = EU, Spain = EU.

You are the only one arguing that poses no problem but can't explain how. Just keep mentioning that it is no problem, seem to be enough for you and you expect people to believe you......no body does, sorry be the one to tell you.


You are the one telling the false stories on how you think the EU is the saviour of NI, and no not arguing with you just correcting you’re false posts , all you have to do is reread from the forum which will tell you the correct analysis of EU actions.



AKa read your post from the start and believe all of them, something like that? Quite tirering if you don't accept facts, but hey you are a Brexitremist, so what do we have to expect from you....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I think you've got a little bit too much Aussi sun, you are trying to re-write history. If the EU wanted to exploit UK weakness (easy to do, I agree with your assessment because the UK is weak in this, but you placed her there, please keep that in mind), you would be relieved of Uk's worries about Gibraltar and in Cyprus too. Cyprus = EU, Spain = EU.

You are the only one arguing that poses no problem but can't explain how. Just keep mentioning that it is no problem, seem to be enough for you and you expect people to believe you......no body does, sorry be the one to tell you.


You are the one telling the false stories on how you think the EU is the saviour of NI, and no not arguing with you just correcting you’re false posts , all you have to do is reread from the forum which will tell you the correct analysis of EU actions.



AKa read your post from the start and believe all of them, something like that? Quite tirering if you don't accept facts, but hey you are a Brexitremist, so what do we have to expect from you....


Problem is you cannot decipher between fiction and non-fiction or read the legal documents in relation to the GFA, you’re modus operandi seems to be one of creating the illusion of truth and using the EU school of propaganda. But I suppose it would be quite tiring for someone who regurgitate the EU line without doing ones own research like yourself.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:33 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


That’s false as well, the reason the EU choose to use the GFA was because it was more advantageous to Brussels and the ROI and the narrative of breaking the GFA when it was false, it was the intention of the UK to try and make the border as seemless as possible. If the UK didn’t give a rats arse about NI then we could have just as easily made the border a customs border which would not have broken the GFA. The EU was using the border as an excuse not an act of good will.


You shouldn't just listen to your own bubble, your analysis is just to laughable. For starters, Ireland insisted on this and the EU just took notice of their concerns. You seem to conveniently forget that it isn't just a UK problem, but lots more are concerned about the Northern Irish situation.



ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border


Republic of Ireland. A puppet of the EU.

A lot of this Irish border nonsense will come out in the wash when Theresa May publishes her memoirs.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:37 am

olle wrote:
JJJ wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
The key to Scottish alternative post-UK future lies in Madrid. As long se Spain will insist on keeping hegemony over Catalonia at any cost, police brutality, political prisoners (with tacit blessing of the EU), they will veto Scottish membership application.


Several ministers are on recbord saying it won't be a problem as long as it's done legally.



Madrid has problemwith a EU state breaking up and becoming memberstate. They have no problem with ex yugoslavia or slovakia etc.


Hypocrites. They cry over gibraltar while they occupy two areas of Morocco.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:54 am

chimborazo wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Good luck, "independent" UK or better England, see you soon: united Ireland and Scotland. The UK citizens have spoken and put into motion a very dangerous chain of events. I am sorry for the many well-willing British citizens out there, not subscribing to this madness. As for the rest, good luck, hopefully, you will find all the upcoming downsides worth it and you will enjoy your perceived "independence". Remember, you wanted this, with every fiber in your body, passionately.

Luckily, the EU has mostly isolated itself from it by now.


Yup! I have several Scottish and Irish friends along with Brits. All under age 50...and they are planning their futures accordingly. Scotland will leave now and the United Kingdom will no longer exist in 10 years. London will slowly bleed it’s world financial capital status over the next 30 years. Brexiteers aka angry, uneducated, old, white, people have cut off their nose to spite their face.

The brain drain out of the U.K. will now start building as a torrent and make the Irish brain drain of the 70s and 80s look tame by comparison.


You know nothing about who Brexiteers are. Just because you have an idea in your head and want to throw insults does not mean you are correct. Those are the same politics of the Labour Party and look what just happened to them.


I deal with demographics and behavioral phenotyping every day, and help companies understand their clients. I use hard data to lead me to the answers. I don’t simply go with what “feels” true like so many people do.

I am not wrong, as the data proves it. Those Brexiters are old, white, largely uneducated, living on the government dole, with poor life satisfaction and questionable health. Don’t get angry at me that I’m merely pointing that out. This too is similar to the average Trump voter in red state America.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-conten ... aphics.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8018301320

If you can’t be bothered to read as many Brexiters are rather uneducated, here’s some pretty pictures....
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... on/488780/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:11 am

I think Catalonia did things the wrong way, by not pushing enough for an independence referendum, then by making a farcical illegal referendum.

There are ways to get a referendum even without Spain agreeing, they could have gone to the UN for example, or the european court of human rights.

They could at least have their referendum organized as if it was an official one, with a long campaign, a fair organization, etc.

I can imagine Scotland doing just that in a few years if they can't get another referendum the legal way.

As it happened, the referendum in Catalonia looked as legit as the one in Crimea.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
chimborazo
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:30 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:

Yup! I have several Scottish and Irish friends along with Brits. All under age 50...and they are planning their futures accordingly. Scotland will leave now and the United Kingdom will no longer exist in 10 years. London will slowly bleed it’s world financial capital status over the next 30 years. Brexiteers aka angry, uneducated, old, white, people have cut off their nose to spite their face.

The brain drain out of the U.K. will now start building as a torrent and make the Irish brain drain of the 70s and 80s look tame by comparison.


You know nothing about who Brexiteers are. Just because you have an idea in your head and want to throw insults does not mean you are correct. Those are the same politics of the Labour Party and look what just happened to them.


I deal with demographics and behavioral phenotyping every day, and help companies understand their clients. I use hard data to lead me to the answers. I don’t simply go with what “feels” true like so many people do.

I am not wrong, as the data proves it. Those Brexiters are old, white, largely uneducated, living on the government dole, with poor life satisfaction and questionable health. Don’t get angry at me that I’m merely pointing that out. This too is similar to the average Trump voter in red state America.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-conten ... aphics.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8018301320

If you can’t be bothered to read as many Brexiters are rather uneducated, here’s some pretty pictures....
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... on/488780/


Insults just detract from any sensible points you are trying to make. The data may indeed indicate that, however that is not me, so no need for insults. I’m not angry, I’m just tired of being told I’m wrong because I have a different opinion.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:53 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
I am not wrong, as the data proves it. Those Brexiters are old, white, largely uneducated, living on the government dole, with poor life satisfaction and questionable health.

So what does that mean, that we should discount their vote and go with the young intelligent voters who want to remain in the EU but did not think they needed to actually go out and mark an X on a ballot?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:58 am

Aesma wrote:
I think Catalonia did things the wrong way, by not pushing enough for an independence referendum, then by making a farcical illegal referendum.

There are ways to get a referendum even without Spain agreeing, they could have gone to the UN for example, or the european court of human rights.

They could at least have their referendum organized as if it was an official one, with a long campaign, a fair organization, etc.

I can imagine Scotland doing just that in a few years if they can't get another referendum the legal way.

As it happened, the referendum in Catalonia looked as legit as the one in Crimea.

Based on all the drama surrounding Brexit since 2016, I did not see the EU allowing any UN intervention, since Spain is a member of the EU the road to the European Courts would be rough, when you look at what ultimately took place, has any attempt at getting any court intervention gone any where?
The issue has not been settled, what has happened is that they have cut off the head of the snake, in the hope that the body will die.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:40 am

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You shouldn't just listen to your own bubble, your analysis is just to laughable. For starters, Ireland insisted on this and the EU just took notice of their concerns. You seem to conveniently forget that it isn't just a UK problem, but lots more are concerned about the Northern Irish situation.



ROI=EU

It was the ROI=EU that kept on peddling the myth that a customs border breaks the GFA when it did no such thing, it was in the economic interests of the ROI to insist on those measure as it knows the UK is it second largest export market, it was self interest in which the ROI wrapped grip around a weakness in the UK moral dilemma of wanting a frictionless border


Republic of Ireland. A puppet of the EU.

A lot of this Irish border nonsense will come out in the wash when Theresa May publishes her memoirs.



As EU member ROI has the weight from the EU behind it in the negotiation and relationship with a third party country like UK.

In the moment UK sent the A50 it woke up to a new reality. Before Westminster acted with ROI like it does with Wales, Scotland and NI today.

Many small countries in EU takes notes of this. Together we are strong even if we fight between each other. UK best friend Poland even start to define relation with Germany as the most important.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:08 am

Klaus wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
olle wrote:
Madrid has problemwith a EU state breaking up and becoming memberstate. They have no problem with ex yugoslavia or slovakia etc.

They will end up looking bad one way or the other. They will either look like total hypocrites implicitly supporting Scottish independence while violently suppressing Catalan independence movement, or they will kill Scottish EU membership ambitions because of their domestic agenda.
Btw, Spain has a problem even with ex Yugoslavia.

Spain is a member of the EU, with a veto on new accessions and could and likely would thus block Catalunya.

The UK won't be any longer, so Scotland would be welcome.

Scotland and Catalunya are very different in many respects.


They are different, indeed. Scotland has had a referendum while in Catalunya the central government responded with police brutality (and the EU turning a blind eye).
Spain is atm the only EU member state with political prisoners.
Where's comrade Timmermans when you really need him?

Spain would be foolish to veto Catalunya's EU membership application, should they ever secede. They will be still their neighbors as an independent entity. Reasonable people can divorce in a civilized way and even though "marriage" was no longer viable, they can maintain good relations afterwards.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:49 am

A101 wrote:
Problem is you cannot decipher between fiction and non-fiction or read the legal documents in relation to the GFA, you’re modus operandi seems to be one of creating the illusion of truth and using the EU school of propaganda. But I suppose it would be quite tiring for someone who regurgitate the EU line without doing ones own research like yourself.


Ah yes, if you can't win an argument, result to personal attacks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:54 am

chimborazo wrote:
Insults just detract from any sensible points you are trying to make. The data may indeed indicate that, however that is not me, so no need for insults. I’m not angry, I’m just tired of being told I’m wrong because I have a different opinion.


That depends on your arguments as a Brexiteer / Brexitremist. Most arguments don't hold ant merit and/or are based at a falsehood. But hey, Boris promised you gold at the end of the rainbow, you can pray that he is right even though there are no indications that he is and no scientist says he is.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:21 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Problem is you cannot decipher between fiction and non-fiction or read the legal documents in relation to the GFA, you’re modus operandi seems to be one of creating the illusion of truth and using the EU school of propaganda. But I suppose it would be quite tiring for someone who regurgitate the EU line without doing ones own research like yourself.


Ah yes, if you can't win an argument, result to personal attacks.


Who’s arguing?

All I’m doing is correcting the false narrative posted by yourself, and then demonstrating that you continue to present the illusion of truth, nothing you have presented has been substantiated by yourself.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
Insults just detract from any sensible points you are trying to make. The data may indeed indicate that, however that is not me, so no need for insults. I’m not angry, I’m just tired of being told I’m wrong because I have a different opinion.


That depends on your arguments as a Brexiteer / Brexitremist. Most arguments don't hold ant merit and/or are based at a falsehood. But hey, Boris promised you gold at the end of the rainbow, you can pray that he is right even though there are no indications that he is and no scientist says he is.


Boris promised me nothing.I want control of immigration from Europe. That is the only thing. We never had a chance to say if we wanted that or not, governments just agreed to open the borders without asking the people.

Oh, and although I was still on the fence because I don’t actually WANT to leave Europe, I just want as described above, what finally made my mind up to vote Leave was when Obama (whom I used to greatly admire) stood on a stage with Cameron and told the British people we should vote to stay in the EU. Woe betide... me and many others have had enough of being told what we should think/do. We DO have an island mentality.

I had a Kiwi girlfriend in Uk, 1 year into her 5 year work visa they rescinded it as it went off the required jobs list- as a direct result of immigration from the EU. The government panicked and had to do something due to the massive influx. So the racist policy of anyone outside the EU has a hard time to get a visa to live here, everyone inside gets the easy route. It’s not fair
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:43 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Problem is you cannot decipher between fiction and non-fiction or read the legal documents in relation to the GFA, you’re modus operandi seems to be one of creating the illusion of truth and using the EU school of propaganda. But I suppose it would be quite tiring for someone who regurgitate the EU line without doing ones own research like yourself.


Ah yes, if you can't win an argument, result to personal attacks.


Who’s arguing?

All I’m doing is correcting the false narrative posted by yourself, and then demonstrating that you continue to present the illusion of truth, nothing you have presented has been substantiated by yourself.


You are the one working with reverse burden of proof. You are talking about intent of the EU, I showed you that with two other cases the EU didn't. So the only logical conclusion is that they did it to protect the Northern Irish citizens and the GFA. The Torries went into bed with the DUP - quite a slap in the face for 50% of the Northern Irish wouldn't you say, during the referendum nobody mentioned the upcoming border on the Irish island. Furthermore in a survey, mentioned here also, so you can look it up in one of the zillion posts, the conservative members are said to find the Brexit more important than the unity of the UK, explicitly Northern Ireland and Scotland. Not much love or care speaks from that now does it.

As for the GFA, everyone is quite confinced that there is no proposal to keep the border open and at the same time be out of the regulatory influence of the EU. You, yourself, have traid a number of times and failed the same number of times. All the bs of the electronic border we can do without, I trust.

So stop rewirting history and just face up to what you have done - although we all know you are going to run away so it basically doesn't concern you and yet you decided to burn the house down, just for fun.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:09 am

chimborazo wrote:
Boris promised me nothing.I want control of immigration from Europe. That is the only thing. We never had a chance to say if we wanted that or not, governments just agreed to open the borders without asking the people.


That's not applicable to people who came from Eastern Europe as it was the UK government who decided not to use the opt out which many (if not all) other EU countries choose to use. Anyway, it was the UK who was advocating this policy in the EU as it would result in lower wages in the UK. Thus you did have a voice, only the UK government decided that the open border policy was a good thing to do (for the UK). It's somewhat odd that you now complain about something which your own government approved.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:42 am

Arion640 wrote:
Republic of Ireland. A puppet of the EU.

A lot of this Irish border nonsense will come out in the wash when Theresa May publishes her memoirs.


I guess they feel they are better as EU puppet than as an England vassal :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:47 am

Olddog wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Republic of Ireland. A puppet of the EU.

A lot of this Irish border nonsense will come out in the wash when Theresa May publishes her memoirs.


I guess they feel they are better as EU puppet than as an England vassal :)


So it’s only England out of the 4 UK countries that will be a vassal state?
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:03 am

chimborazo wrote:
Boris promised me nothing.I want control of immigration from Europe. That is the only thing. We never had a chance to say if we wanted that or not, governments just agreed to open the borders without asking the people.


We had numerous general elections. There was ample opportunity for a party to offer a vote on either EU membership or freedom of movenment. Nobody chose to do that until Cameron. For good reason, the UK needed EU immigration, it was part of the EU's principles (along with freedom to move capital and goods) and it is not, I repeat not the fault of immigration that parts of UK infrastructure cannot cope with the population level. This is entirely, has always been the fault of continuous UK govenments.

I have never had any issue with freedom of movement. I have been lucky enough (like millions of other Brits) to go the other way. BUT what should have happened is when Poland, Romania etc joined, the UK should have always put in place the regulations that exist in EU leglislation to limit numbers in the first few years, and ensure people could support themselves financially. if not then you have to leave after a few months. The stats don't support that this was ever a problem, but I think it would have gone some way to ease the concerns of EU sceptics.

chimborazo wrote:
Woe betide... me and many others have had enough of being told what we should think/do. We DO have an island mentality.


Who kept on telling you what to think? The EU's rules? Well the UK helped make them. The press? Well the UK's press is primarily owned by Right wing billionaires with agenda and decades of anti-eu retoric has been printed. From bendy bannanas (writen by Boris) to complete lies and misunderstands of how the EU operates.

Indeed there is a island mentality. Sometimes it works to our advantage, but most of the time it's a hindrance.

The EU was never perfect, we all know that. It needs to change - most people accept that. What I cannot and will never accept is the Brexit referendum farce and the blame for all the UK's ills being put at the door of the EU.

It's done though. Hopefully in a few decades we can re-join.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:58 pm

Arion640 wrote:
olle wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Several ministers are on recbord saying it won't be a problem as long as it's done legally.



Madrid has problemwith a EU state breaking up and becoming memberstate. They have no problem with ex yugoslavia or slovakia etc.


Hypocrites. They cry over gibraltar while they occupy two areas of Morocco.


Spain complains about Gibraltar sui generis tax schemes.

Integrate Gib in the UK (same tax arrangements and all) and it will just be a quirky curiosity.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:28 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
The EU was never perfect, we all know that. It needs to change - most people accept that. What I cannot and will never accept is the Brexit referendum farce and the blame for all the UK's ills being put at the door of the EU.

The irony here is that the UK political class has always used the EU as their punching bag to deflect from their own governance, but no one really cared about that until those same politicians boxed themselves into a corner and had to give the people an open vote.
The rest is history and follows the saying "Oh what a tangle web we weave when first we practice......."
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:39 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Klaus wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
They will end up looking bad one way or the other. They will either look like total hypocrites implicitly supporting Scottish independence while violently suppressing Catalan independence movement, or they will kill Scottish EU membership ambitions because of their domestic agenda.
Btw, Spain has a problem even with ex Yugoslavia.

Spain is a member of the EU, with a veto on new accessions and could and likely would thus block Catalunya.

The UK won't be any longer, so Scotland would be welcome.

Scotland and Catalunya are very different in many respects.


They are different, indeed. Scotland has had a referendum while in Catalunya the central government responded with police brutality (and the EU turning a blind eye).
Spain is atm the only EU member state with political prisoners.


Catalonia has this thing called Estatut, which is basically Catalonia's constitution. An Estatut change requires 2/3 majority.

The catalan govt decides they want an Estatut change (referendum law, electoral law, etc) but they don't have the required majority.

Of course, they just pass the law nevertheless, and complain when the Court strikes it down.

Then they carry on as if the law was still good, so they get charged accordingly.

So yes, there are politicians in prison but they arent political prisoners.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ah yes, if you can't win an argument, result to personal attacks.


Who’s arguing?

All I’m doing is correcting the false narrative posted by yourself, and then demonstrating that you continue to present the illusion of truth, nothing you have presented has been substantiated by yourself.


You are the one working with reverse burden of proof. You are talking about intent of the EU, I showed you that with two other cases the EU didn't. So the only logical conclusion is that they did it to protect the Northern Irish citizens and the GFA. The Torries went into bed with the DUP - quite a slap in the face for 50% of the Northern Irish wouldn't you say, during the referendum nobody mentioned the upcoming border on the Irish island. Furthermore in a survey, mentioned here also, so you can look it up in one of the zillion posts, the conservative members are said to find the Brexit more important than the unity of the UK, explicitly Northern Ireland and Scotland. Not much love or care speaks from that now does it.

As for the GFA, everyone is quite confinced that there is no proposal to keep the border open and at the same time be out of the regulatory influence of the EU. You, yourself, have traid a number of times and failed the same number of times. All the bs of the electronic border we can do without, I trust.

So stop rewirting history and just face up to what you have done - although we all know you are going to run away so it basically doesn't concern you and yet you decided to burn the house down, just for fun.



Once again the illusion of the truth, you keep mentioning the protection of NI in the quest from the EU to keep sovereign territory of the UK in its sphere of influence. The electronic border is all ready a fact of life and it was shown by SME that an electronic border for customs can be done but it takes the good will of both sides, the reasons that the EU choose not to was at the time the was internal pressures from other groups within the EU for there own exit and it was the intent of the EU to show how difficult and painful it was to leave the EU the whole border issue was from the EU was about keeping the nations in line nothing was in the interests of NI it was all about the interests of the EU.

One day it will all come out in the wash on the reasons, hopefully you will get your federalisation of the EU really desires and Brussel will continue to strip away sovereignty from the collective of member nations and you will all be happy little Vegemites
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:42 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:

Yup! I have several Scottish and Irish friends along with Brits. All under age 50...and they are planning their futures accordingly. Scotland will leave now and the United Kingdom will no longer exist in 10 years. London will slowly bleed it’s world financial capital status over the next 30 years. Brexiteers aka angry, uneducated, old, white, people have cut off their nose to spite their face.

The brain drain out of the U.K. will now start building as a torrent and make the Irish brain drain of the 70s and 80s look tame by comparison.


You know nothing about who Brexiteers are. Just because you have an idea in your head and want to throw insults does not mean you are correct. Those are the same politics of the Labour Party and look what just happened to them.


I deal with demographics and behavioral phenotyping every day, and help companies understand their clients. I use hard data to lead me to the answers. I don’t simply go with what “feels” true like so many people do.

I am not wrong, as the data proves it. Those Brexiters are old, white, largely uneducated, living on the government dole, with poor life satisfaction and questionable health. Don’t get angry at me that I’m merely pointing that out. This too is similar to the average Trump voter in red state America.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-conten ... aphics.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 8018301320

If you can’t be bothered to read as many Brexiters are rather uneducated, here’s some pretty pictures....
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... on/488780/


We need some up to date demographics, particularly from the December 2019 vote. In this case data from 2016 is outdated. As I understand it, Tories got 45% of the vote. I suspect demographers will tease out just who that 45% were, who the 55% were, and who the non-voters were.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:46 pm

I still hope the no deal exit will come. It is what people in the UK desire.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:57 pm

seahawk wrote:
I still hope the no deal exit will come. It is what people in the UK desire.


polling proof needed, and by reputable news sources or professional polling companies
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:30 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Who’s arguing?

All I’m doing is correcting the false narrative posted by yourself, and then demonstrating that you continue to present the illusion of truth, nothing you have presented has been substantiated by yourself.


You are the one working with reverse burden of proof. You are talking about intent of the EU, I showed you that with two other cases the EU didn't. So the only logical conclusion is that they did it to protect the Northern Irish citizens and the GFA. The Torries went into bed with the DUP - quite a slap in the face for 50% of the Northern Irish wouldn't you say, during the referendum nobody mentioned the upcoming border on the Irish island. Furthermore in a survey, mentioned here also, so you can look it up in one of the zillion posts, the conservative members are said to find the Brexit more important than the unity of the UK, explicitly Northern Ireland and Scotland. Not much love or care speaks from that now does it.

As for the GFA, everyone is quite confinced that there is no proposal to keep the border open and at the same time be out of the regulatory influence of the EU. You, yourself, have traid a number of times and failed the same number of times. All the bs of the electronic border we can do without, I trust.

So stop rewirting history and just face up to what you have done - although we all know you are going to run away so it basically doesn't concern you and yet you decided to burn the house down, just for fun.



Once again the illusion of the truth, you keep mentioning the protection of NI in the quest from the EU to keep sovereign territory of the UK in its sphere of influence. The electronic border is all ready a fact of life and it was shown by SME that an electronic border for customs can be done but it takes the good will of both sides, the reasons that the EU choose not to was at the time the was internal pressures from other groups within the EU for there own exit and it was the intent of the EU to show how difficult and painful it was to leave the EU the whole border issue was from the EU was about keeping the nations in line nothing was in the interests of NI it was all about the interests of the EU.

One day it will all come out in the wash on the reasons, hopefully you will get your federalisation of the EU really desires and Brussel will continue to strip away sovereignty from the collective of member nations and you will all be happy little Vegemites


Sure, whatever, we know where you are coming from and what your distorted frame of reference is. I'll leave it at that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:42 am

seahawk wrote:
I still hope the no deal exit will come. It is what people in the UK desire.


Farage said before the election that a Norway model was what he expected. Have you or Express asked all Brexiteers voters if a No deal based on a no existing WTO regime what was wanted? In the trump world WTO is not worth anything. Only big is better.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:50 am

olle wrote:
Farage said before the election that a Norway model was what he expected. Have you or Express asked all Brexiteers voters if a No deal based on a no existing WTO regime what was wanted? In the trump world WTO is not worth anything. Only big is better.


I wonder how the Tory voters will feel when Boris goes for a softer Brexit than everyone currently expects (not that Boris would care). Boris will argue that he delivered Brexit and he has nothing to fear for the near future. Corporate UK will be happy (at least the multinationals) and in return will reward Boris with a good job in a few years time.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:26 am

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
Farage said before the election that a Norway model was what he expected. Have you or Express asked all Brexiteers voters if a No deal based on a no existing WTO regime what was wanted? In the trump world WTO is not worth anything. Only big is better.


I wonder how the Tory voters will feel when Boris goes for a softer Brexit than everyone currently expects (not that Boris would care). Boris will argue that he delivered Brexit and he has nothing to fear for the near future. Corporate UK will be happy (at least the multinationals) and in return will reward Boris with a good job in a few years time.


Well if it’s reported accurately no he’s after a CETA nothing more nothing less

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -2020.html
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:30 am

Boris to get a law through preventing further delays to brexit.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.

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