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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:49 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
The EU funding built a roundabout to nowhere 15 years ago in my local area. It still goes nowhere to this day. I’m not lying.


So your own local politicians grabbed a bunch of european money based on false promises and just poured it down the drain instead of actually using in the interests of their constituency.


Indeed and their own money in part, most European projects are partly funded by the EU and partly by other funding like local in case of a road.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sure, all things considered, the EU would prefer a deal, but your suggesting that the EU will give in just for Germany to avoid a recession. To be blunt, it won't so don't count on it.


I didn’t suggest anything, I merely said it would be a consideration to achieving a short term partnership agreement not a comprehensive trade agreement
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:14 pm

Klaus wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
still possible, there is no FTA. New deadline: end of the year.


You just seem to keep moving the goal posts.

Originally, the WA not coming into force was supposed to be hard brexit. Now you’re saying it’s the FR/FTA. What will it be after that?

There is no surprise in any of this at all, it is simply how the actual mechanics of Brexit work:

The transition period the UK is about to enter only exists at all because the WA has been agreed between the UK and the EU. Without the WA there would not have been a transition period and the UK would have crashed out at the end of the negotiation period, so even with all the extensions at the end of this month.

With the WA now most likely being ratified, the transition period is activated until the end of this year and staves off that crash-out Brexit for another few months, with a chance to avert it if a new FTA is agreed until then.

By the very nature of Brexit a hard crash out is the default exit mode and the UK can only try to cushion that fall to some extent if it manages to win a new trade agreement with the EU which is less disruptive than the default crash out would be.

But given that Johnson has actively legislated to exclude any extension, this only leaves these options:

1. A comparatively weak and rudimentary agreement which is still quite close to a crash out and which causes massive damage to the UK economy.

2. Effectively extending the transition period, keeping the UK almost completely in alignment and – after throwing its own membership rights away – in that state of dependency to avoid the dire consequences of a hard crash out while just not calling it an extension but still continuing to negotiate.

3. Formally extending the transition period after all, overturning that posturing legislation which had always just been for show domestically anyway.

Given the complexity of the task and the gulf of divergent interests there is very little chance of an actually substantial agreement being possible which the UK can then live with in the long run.

My expectation is 2., Johnson continuing to sell his followers a bill of goods while having trouble dealing with the actual realities. From the looks of it he'd prefer 1., but he may find that a more difficult sell at home.



The whole A50 is designed by its very timeframe to make the process very difficult, as the original context for its inclusion was a extant crises within the bloc of the EU invoking Article 7 and that nation then storming out. As with any piece of legislation the framer’s cannot possibly contemplate to know all scenario‘s that might happen in the future.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:58 pm

In 2016 brexit vote said that a new great future was going to arrive day after the leaving of EU.

Even if UK still have not left leading brexiteers now says 50 years is to be expected to pass before this great future emerge.

The original A50 period against the advice of UK experts was enough of time both negotiate divorce and future relationship. Now we now that divorce took 36 month, and experts again says new future relationship should take around 7 years while uk says 12 month is fine. Let see whois correct end of 2020.

The biggest effect of this mess has been that EU and companies has got more prepared for brexit while uk has not.

During the next 24 month we will see what happens with car manufactoring. Most owners hasdeclared cuts in uk and tesla went to Germany.

Financial services will partly bemoved to EU. But rules will be squeesed to avoiding harming EU companies with start in April this year.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:59 pm

A101 wrote:
The whole A50 is designed by its very timeframe to make the process very difficult, as the original context for its inclusion was a extant crises within the bloc of the EU invoking Article 7 and that nation then storming out. As with any piece of legislation the framer’s cannot possibly contemplate to know all scenario‘s that might happen in the future.

The process itself is simple.

It's just suicidal to actually embark on it in the first place.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:01 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sure, all things considered, the EU would prefer a deal, but your suggesting that the EU will give in just for Germany to avoid a recession. To be blunt, it won't so don't count on it.


I didn’t suggest anything, I merely said it would be a consideration to achieving a short term partnership agreement not a comprehensive trade agreement

That would be almost as bad for the UK as a crash out because the UK economy would have to undergo not just one but two severe transitions to entirely different environments – while the EU economy of course would see no change at all, just an emerging competitor destroying itself.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:40 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The whole A50 is designed by its very timeframe to make the process very difficult, as the original context for its inclusion was a extant crises within the bloc of the EU invoking Article 7 and that nation then storming out. As with any piece of legislation the framer’s cannot possibly contemplate to know all scenario‘s that might happen in the future.

The process itself is simple.

It's just suicidal to actually embark on it in the first place.


So you believe that if the UK dosnt believe in the direction the EU is going closer political union and if the UK does not want to go in that direction we should just suck it up or perhaps e should just veto all amendments to that effect. If the majority want that why should the UK stand in its way would it be better if we left?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:43 pm

Yes, it is better for the EU that the UK left. But it is not good for the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:18 pm

A101 wrote:
So you believe that if the UK dosnt believe in the direction the EU is going closer political union and if the UK does not want to go in that direction we should just suck it up or perhaps e should just veto all amendments to that effect.

This sounds like a very autistic view of the world, completely miscomprehending everyone around you and unable to interact constructively. And it describes the Brexit campaign's attitude very well.

At the same time in the real world the UK has actually been particularly effective at influencing the direction of the EU – your politicians and most of your papers just chose to sell you on a complete lie of the UK's EU membership working as "us vs. them" which was actually not the case overall, but your own politicians thought it was advantageous to lie to you back home about how they actually interacted with the other member countries, and a bunch of mendacious but ambitious second- and third-tier politicians who'd never had made it on their competence found this to be their opening to exploit to seize power anyway.

And there we are now.
Last edited by Klaus on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:26 pm

Single market for example was a Thatcher product.

Now get migration undercontrol with stronger border control is an indirect effect of UK feedback. Now UK in one or another way will be on to protect against both regarding people, services and products.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:37 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
So you believe that if the UK dosnt believe in the direction the EU is going closer political union and if the UK does not want to go in that direction we should just suck it up or perhaps e should just veto all amendments to that effect.


This sounds like a very autistic view of the world, completely miscomprehending everyone around you and unable to interact constructively. And it describes the Brexit campaign's attitude very well..


You are comparing Brexit to Autism and mocking those who campaigned and insinuating they are all on the autism spectrum disorder and make a judgement on their intellectual ability . Very low even for a remain supporter....very disrespectful to those who have to deal or care for someone with this disability :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:



Klaus wrote:
At the same time in the real world the UK has actually been particularly effective at influencing the direction of the EU – your politicians and most of your papers just chose to sell you on a complete lie of the UK's EU membership working as "us vs. them" which was actually not the case overall, but your own politicians thought it was advantageous to lie to you back home about how they actually interacted with the other member countries, and a bunch of mendacious but ambitious second- and third-tier politicians who'd never had made it on their competence found this to be their opening to exploit to seize power anyway.

And there we are now.


The world has changed a lot since the inception of the EEC/EU and ideology can also change, the whole premise on joining the EEC was based on lies….as was the 75 referenda was based on lies. If Heath had actually held the referendum prior to joining the EEC the UK was most likely to vote no under opinion polls of the time.
The EU-UK working relationship can be best described as the UK being the reluctant European with UK negotiators trying to get the best for the UK, the high and lows can bee seen by the personality whims of the PM of the day whether the were pro-European or not you can see that under Thatcher to whom was very bullish towards Brussels in the end after signing the Single European Act , she saw it a long time ago and got it right about the perils of being in the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-NzMf3SW-Q
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:01 am

Don't think this is far off the mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYuoWyk8iU
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:06 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
Did I say that Regulatory Equivalence means Australia can automatically export organic products to the EU without complying with EU regulations for the importation of organic goods?........NO


Then what's the relevance? Organic is a note at the bottom on the book of international trade. It's basically meaningless. So meaningless a lot if not most countries don't bother making their own rules on it and rely on private certificators.


Really if its at the bottom of international trade then why would the EU make agreements for Regulatory Equivalence, the EU doesn’t do it unless there was a benefit to the EU;
The relevance is that the EU recognise that the regulatory regime of certain non-EU countries is equivalent to the corresponding EU framework in the area specified, Regulatory Equivalence brings benefits to both parties in the way of it makes certain services or entities of non-EU companies acceptable for regulatory purposes in the EU and also it can reduce or eliminates overlaps in compliance requirements for both EU and third country that an agreement has been made with that is the sole purpose of Regulatory Equivalence its mutual recognition that the standards of other in a specified area are sufficiently close to its own to be deemed ’equivalent’


Because it's a small piece, but a piece nonetheless. And it's cheap in terms of trust because doesn't guarantee anything except for the right of putting "organic" next to whatever it's certifying.

That's what me and EU is saying the whole time. You keep bringing regulatory equivalence as if it were some sort of right. It's not, it's something the UK has to earn via trust. And there are many signs in place that point to the UK not being a trustworthy partner.

Keep all things aligned and trade won't be a problem, diverge and certification programs will be a thing. Simple as that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:33 pm

Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:


And the French company is majority owned by French government agencies......................

https://www.cls.fr/wp-content/uploads/cls-shareholders-2013.jpg
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:34 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:


Then what's the relevance? Organic is a note at the bottom on the book of international trade. It's basically meaningless. So meaningless a lot if not most countries don't bother making their own rules on it and rely on private certificators.


Really if its at the bottom of international trade then why would the EU make agreements for Regulatory Equivalence, the EU doesn’t do it unless there was a benefit to the EU;
The relevance is that the EU recognise that the regulatory regime of certain non-EU countries is equivalent to the corresponding EU framework in the area specified, Regulatory Equivalence brings benefits to both parties in the way of it makes certain services or entities of non-EU companies acceptable for regulatory purposes in the EU and also it can reduce or eliminates overlaps in compliance requirements for both EU and third country that an agreement has been made with that is the sole purpose of Regulatory Equivalence its mutual recognition that the standards of other in a specified area are sufficiently close to its own to be deemed ’equivalent’


Because it's a small piece, but a piece nonetheless. And it's cheap in terms of trust because doesn't guarantee anything except for the right of putting "organic" next to whatever it's certifying.

That's what me and EU is saying the whole time. You keep bringing regulatory equivalence as if it were some sort of right. It's not, it's something the UK has to earn via trust. And there are many signs in place that point to the UK not being a trustworthy partner.

Keep all things aligned and trade won't be a problem, diverge and certification programs will be a thing. Simple as that.



So do tell me if its all about having the right to put a fancy label on packaging is the EU testing all the products as they arrive in the EU?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:




No, they managed to win the contract under Competitive public contract bidding laws as mandated by the EU. Globavista who used to manage it were actually shortlisted to the final three but withdrew their bid which left two non UK firms to choose from.

Now not being privy to why Globavista withdrew but I imagine it would have to do with price, if that were to be the case I imagine both the other firms involved would have taken the UK Gov to court at the ECJ after all EU law still holds supremacy over national law, that would be a direct legacy from R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport at the ECJ unless you are advocating that the UK not comply with EU law whilst still a paid member?
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:34 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Really if its at the bottom of international trade then why would the EU make agreements for Regulatory Equivalence, the EU doesn’t do it unless there was a benefit to the EU;
The relevance is that the EU recognise that the regulatory regime of certain non-EU countries is equivalent to the corresponding EU framework in the area specified, Regulatory Equivalence brings benefits to both parties in the way of it makes certain services or entities of non-EU companies acceptable for regulatory purposes in the EU and also it can reduce or eliminates overlaps in compliance requirements for both EU and third country that an agreement has been made with that is the sole purpose of Regulatory Equivalence its mutual recognition that the standards of other in a specified area are sufficiently close to its own to be deemed ’equivalent’


Because it's a small piece, but a piece nonetheless. And it's cheap in terms of trust because doesn't guarantee anything except for the right of putting "organic" next to whatever it's certifying.

That's what me and EU is saying the whole time. You keep bringing regulatory equivalence as if it were some sort of right. It's not, it's something the UK has to earn via trust. And there are many signs in place that point to the UK not being a trustworthy partner.

Keep all things aligned and trade won't be a problem, diverge and certification programs will be a thing. Simple as that.



So do tell me if its all about having the right to put a fancy label on packaging is the EU testing all the products as they arrive in the EU?


You keep conflating two things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

No one cares about organic. If a shady merchant puts non organic kale on an organic kale smoothie it's extremely unlikely anyone down the line will notice. It's very much make believe and you should very much be wary of a lot of things that are labelled as organic.

That's why having your products certified organic doesn't say anything about whether they're eligible to be imported anywhere. There are taller hoops to jump and for very good reasons.

If you are going to trade on non-compliant meat, fruit treated with forbidden chemicals etc. you are playing in the big fraud league. Stakes are higher, and checks and penalties are also orders of magnitude higher.

Simply put, if anyone checks whether some organic meat is ok for the EU market it's because it's meat, not because it's organic.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:08 am

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Because it's a small piece, but a piece nonetheless. And it's cheap in terms of trust because doesn't guarantee anything except for the right of putting "organic" next to whatever it's certifying.

That's what me and EU is saying the whole time. You keep bringing regulatory equivalence as if it were some sort of right. It's not, it's something the UK has to earn via trust. And there are many signs in place that point to the UK not being a trustworthy partner.

Keep all things aligned and trade won't be a problem, diverge and certification programs will be a thing. Simple as that.



So do tell me if its all about having the right to put a fancy label on packaging is the EU testing all the products as they arrive in the EU?


You keep conflating two things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

No one cares about organic. If a shady merchant puts non organic kale on an organic kale smoothie it's extremely unlikely anyone down the line will notice. It's very much make believe and you should very much be wary of a lot of things that are labelled as organic.

That's why having your products certified organic doesn't say anything about whether they're eligible to be imported anywhere. There are taller hoops to jump and for very good reasons.

If you are going to trade on non-compliant meat, fruit treated with forbidden chemicals etc. you are playing in the big fraud league. Stakes are higher, and checks and penalties are also orders of magnitude higher.

Simply put, if anyone checks whether some organic meat is ok for the EU market it's because it's meat, not because it's organic.



No I'm not..... the whole point of the discussion is that the EU recognise non member specific regulatory regime in certain areas and vice versa nothing more nothing less, you are the one who continues to bring up regulations down the food chain (no pun intended) the whole point of regulatory equivalence is trust between both parties that they will abide by the rules of import/export of the food standards of that nation/union and give certification jurisdiction to the non EU member entities . Those nations that receive equivalence are recognised as trusted partners.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:35 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:




No, they managed to win the contract under Competitive public contract bidding laws as mandated by the EU. Globavista who used to manage it were actually shortlisted to the final three but withdrew their bid which left two non UK firms to choose from.

Now not being privy to why Globavista withdrew but I imagine it would have to do with price, if that were to be the case I imagine both the other firms involved would have taken the UK Gov to court at the ECJ after all EU law still holds supremacy over national law, that would be a direct legacy from R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport at the ECJ unless you are advocating that the UK not comply with EU law whilst still a paid member?


Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:01 am

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:




No, they managed to win the contract under Competitive public contract bidding laws as mandated by the EU. Globavista who used to manage it were actually shortlisted to the final three but withdrew their bid which left two non UK firms to choose from.

Now not being privy to why Globavista withdrew but I imagine it would have to do with price, if that were to be the case I imagine both the other firms involved would have taken the UK Gov to court at the ECJ after all EU law still holds supremacy over national law, that would be a direct legacy from R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport at the ECJ unless you are advocating that the UK not comply with EU law whilst still a paid member?


Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!


He’s is celebrating the illusion of truth and playing the perception sovereignty card.

The VfM is an important tool to governments unless the need is fundamental to our national security interests
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:49 am

A101 wrote:
the whole point of the discussion is that the EU recognise non member specific regulatory regime in certain areas and vice versa nothing more nothing less

Yes, and there's always a guillotine clause attached to that, meaning the EU can and will immediately cut off that equivalence if it loses trust in the reliability of the associated certification regime.

But violating the equivalence to EU regulations is declared policy of Boris' government, so any equivalence agreement will require him to retract his divergence intentions in that sector.

This is the crux of the matter where your delusions meet the cold, hard reality.

And the UK being primarily a service-based economy (and even more so with Brexit destroying most of what had been left of the UK car industry and various other sectors) equivalence will be more important to the UK than ever before – trade agreeements do very little to enable service exports while the EU is increasingly becoming a harmonized market for services, too, but the UK will soon be on the outside looking in.

Meaning the UK will be increasingly dependent on not stepping on any of the tripwires connected to the inevitable guillotine clauses governing any equivalence agreements.

So complex and costly certification regimes will become necessary to do the same business which had been almost effortless before Brexit, and any kind of meaningful divergence can throw up complete roadblocks at any moment.

Sounds like a "great" situation Brexit is creating for the UK, while EU businesses just continue to work unimpeded, competing on the basis of the full benefits of EU membership.

, you are the one who continues to bring up regulations down the food chain (no pun intended) the whole point of regulatory equivalence is trust between both parties that they will abide by the rules of import/export of the food standards of that nation/union and give certification jurisdiction to the non EU member entities . Those nations that receive equivalence are recognised as trusted partners.

And Boris enjoys zero trust on the EU side. Already having declared that divergence from EU regulations will be the whole point of his entire strategy, he doesn't even start at just zero, he's already under water right in the beginning!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:40 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:

the whole point of the discussion is that the EU recognise non-member specific regulatory regime in certain areas and vice versa nothing more nothing less


Yes, and there's always a guillotine clause attached to that, meaning the EU can and will immediately cut off that equivalence if it loses trust in the reliability of the associated certification regime.


And that works both ways

Klaus wrote:
But violating the equivalence to EU regulations is declared policy of Boris' government, so any equivalence agreement will require him to retract his divergence intentions in that sector.


Johnson wants the right to diverge were it is in the interests of the UK to do so, the EU on the other hand wants the UK to remain to reduce any competitive advantage to the UK on trade

Klaus wrote:
This is the crux of the matter where your delusions meet the cold, hard reality.
And the UK being primarily a service-based economy (and even more so with Brexit destroying most of what had been left of the UK car industry and various other sectors) equivalence will be more important to the UK than ever before – trade agreeements do very little to enable service exports while the EU is increasingly becoming a harmonized market for services, too, but the UK will soon be on the outside looking in.
Meaning the UK will be increasingly dependent on not stepping on any of the tripwires connected to the inevitable guillotine clauses governing any equivalence agreements.


That is not much different to Australia as its primarily a resource driven economy, but as I have been saying Regulatory alignment does not necessarily mean identical rules but it must result in the same outcome.

Klaus wrote:
So complex and costly certification regimes will become necessary to do the same business which had been almost effortless before Brexit, and any kind of meaningful divergence can throw up complete roadblocks at any moment.
Sounds like a "great" situation Brexit is creating for the UK, while EU businesses just continue to work unimpeded, competing on the basis of the full benefits of EU membership.


Those groups that still want to export to the EU after the UK leaves would still need to be certified by the EU no matter if Johnson diverges or not. They are not going to be changing their current practice because it already meets EU standards

Klaus wrote:
And Boris enjoys zero trust on the EU side. Already having declared that divergence from EU regulations will be the whole point of his entire strategy, he doesn't even start at just zero, he's already under water right in the beginning!


You are talking about personality clash at the political level you do not like the bloke that’s your prerogative, I personally don’t like the bloke either
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:12 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:


So do tell me if its all about having the right to put a fancy label on packaging is the EU testing all the products as they arrive in the EU?


You keep conflating two things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

No one cares about organic. If a shady merchant puts non organic kale on an organic kale smoothie it's extremely unlikely anyone down the line will notice. It's very much make believe and you should very much be wary of a lot of things that are labelled as organic.

That's why having your products certified organic doesn't say anything about whether they're eligible to be imported anywhere. There are taller hoops to jump and for very good reasons.

If you are going to trade on non-compliant meat, fruit treated with forbidden chemicals etc. you are playing in the big fraud league. Stakes are higher, and checks and penalties are also orders of magnitude higher.

Simply put, if anyone checks whether some organic meat is ok for the EU market it's because it's meat, not because it's organic.



No I'm not..... the whole point of the discussion is that the EU recognise non member specific regulatory regime in certain areas and vice versa nothing more nothing less, you are the one who continues to bring up regulations down the food chain (no pun intended) the whole point of regulatory equivalence is trust between both parties that they will abide by the rules of import/export of the food standards of that nation/union and give certification jurisdiction to the non EU member entities . Those nations that receive equivalence are recognised as trusted partners.


I'll have to quote myself then:

That's what me and EU is saying the whole time. You keep bringing regulatory equivalence as if it were some sort of right. It's not, it's something the UK has to earn via trust. And there are many signs in place that point to the UK not being a trustworthy partner.


Trust is something you earn. And losing it is so easy.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:52 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
But violating the equivalence to EU regulations is declared policy of Boris' government, so any equivalence agreement will require him to retract his divergence intentions in that sector.


Johnson wants the right to diverge were it is in the interests of the UK to do so, the EU on the other hand wants the UK to remain to reduce any competitive advantage to the UK on trade


Who knows what Johnson wants, he is, let's say, morally flexible. Fine that the UK does its thing to try to remain competitive. The same thing goes for every country the UK tries to do a deal with. So the EU will not permit the UK to export to the EU with relaxed regulation on the side of the UK which gives UK companies an unfair advantage over EU companies. The same goes for the US - perhaps even more - and other trade blocks. The UK is small in the sea filled with sharks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:13 am

I know that in the context of Brexit (and anti EU propaganda in the UK) it seems the EU is having all kinds of unnecessary regulations on food etc., but the opposite could be argued, that we let too many products enter the single market that don't really conform to EU standards. Then French farmers will add that they have to follow rules in France that are even more stringent than EU rules, with plenty of chemicals banned, etc. (which is true).

I've also read and heard several specialists, border agents and similar, saying the UK is already letting non conforming products from China in particular enter the single market, by rubber stamping imports, instead of doing thorough checks. So the current amount of trust might not be that high to begin with.
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Ertro
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:35 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
And Boris enjoys zero trust on the EU side. Already having declared that divergence from EU regulations will be the whole point of his entire strategy, he doesn't even start at just zero, he's already under water right in the beginning!

You are talking about personality clash at the political level you do not like the bloke that’s your prerogative, I personally don’t like the bloke either


It is not about personalities. Boris is just an additional something on top that is impossible to trust on anything.

At the heart of the problem is that EU has zero understanding what it is the position where UK even wants to be in the world.
What is the relation between UK, EU, USA and Singapore where UK wants to be travelling towards?

Without this understanding it is ridiculous even thinking about trust. There is nothing that could possibly be even considered to be trusted.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:42 am

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Brexit Farce as French Given the Job of Tracking British Fishing

The irony, first the proud British blue passports will be made by a French company, and now the other proud Brexiteers platform: the fish industry. They will be tracked by the French as well. Brilliantly done............ :lol:




No, they managed to win the contract under Competitive public contract bidding laws as mandated by the EU. Globavista who used to manage it were actually shortlisted to the final three but withdrew their bid which left two non UK firms to choose from.

Now not being privy to why Globavista withdrew but I imagine it would have to do with price, if that were to be the case I imagine both the other firms involved would have taken the UK Gov to court at the ECJ after all EU law still holds supremacy over national law, that would be a direct legacy from R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport at the ECJ unless you are advocating that the UK not comply with EU law whilst still a paid member?


Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!


If this contract is awared on lowest price only, you will regret it.....
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:51 am

marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:



No, they managed to win the contract under Competitive public contract bidding laws as mandated by the EU. Globavista who used to manage it were actually shortlisted to the final three but withdrew their bid which left two non UK firms to choose from.

Now not being privy to why Globavista withdrew but I imagine it would have to do with price, if that were to be the case I imagine both the other firms involved would have taken the UK Gov to court at the ECJ after all EU law still holds supremacy over national law, that would be a direct legacy from R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport at the ECJ unless you are advocating that the UK not comply with EU law whilst still a paid member?


Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!


If this contract is awared on lowest price only, you will regret it.....


Why?
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:58 am

Arion640 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!


If this contract is awared on lowest price only, you will regret it.....


Why?


Don't know what the consequences are in the long term and you have to agree it is ironic that another one of the Brexiteer's focus points is handed to a foreign company.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:28 am

Arion640 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not sure why Dutchy is celebrating over this. We still want value for money!


If this contract is awared on lowest price only, you will regret it.....


Why?


Lowest price doesn't always give you the value you need. Pennywise, pound foolish.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:09 pm

marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

If this contract is awared on lowest price only, you will regret it.....


Why?


Lowest price doesn't always give you the value you need. Pennywise, pound foolish.


I have to agree with you there but like I said earlier, the contract was won under the Competitive Public Contract Bidding Laws as mandated by the EU. I'm not privy to the inside information so we can only speculate what the tender was composed under and why the UK firm dropped out. but if Dutchy wants to believe in the propaganda win so be it
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:42 pm

The French company in question is very good at what it does, and its major shareholders are the CNES (French NASA, budget second only to NASA's) and IFREMER (same but for marine research and exploration, France having the biggest or second biggest Exclusive Economic Zone in the world).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:16 pm

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Why?


Lowest price doesn't always give you the value you need. Pennywise, pound foolish.


I have to agree with you there but like I said earlier, the contract was won under the Competitive Public Contract Bidding Laws as mandated by the EU. I'm not privy to the inside information so we can only speculate what the tender was composed under and why the UK firm dropped out. but if Dutchy wants to believe in the propaganda win so be it


That makes sense. So after brexit we can switch to using British companies. Fantastic.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
I've also read and heard several specialists, border agents and similar, saying the UK is already letting non conforming products from China in particular enter the single market, by rubber stamping imports, instead of doing thorough checks. So the current amount of trust might not be that high to begin with.


That is hardly a secret: https://www.politico.eu/article/brussel ... ms-duties/
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:35 pm

Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Lowest price doesn't always give you the value you need. Pennywise, pound foolish.


I have to agree with you there but like I said earlier, the contract was won under the Competitive Public Contract Bidding Laws as mandated by the EU. I'm not privy to the inside information so we can only speculate what the tender was composed under and why the UK firm dropped out. but if Dutchy wants to believe in the propaganda win so be it


That makes sense. So after brexit we can switch to using British companies. Fantastic.


Unless the UK wants to be able to bid for EU government contracts. It will be another thing the UK will gve to the EU as UK companies want to be able to bid for these lucrative contracts.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:08 pm

LJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
A101 wrote:

I have to agree with you there but like I said earlier, the contract was won under the Competitive Public Contract Bidding Laws as mandated by the EU. I'm not privy to the inside information so we can only speculate what the tender was composed under and why the UK firm dropped out. but if Dutchy wants to believe in the propaganda win so be it


That makes sense. So after brexit we can switch to using British companies. Fantastic.


Unless the UK wants to be able to bid for EU government contracts. It will be another thing the UK will gve to the EU as UK companies want to be able to bid for these lucrative contracts.


That’s fine, signs we’ll have a good trading partnership then.

I’m sure US companies have contracts with EU bodies. It is possible, however mad it may seem, for a non EU company to interact with companies in the EU.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I’m sure US companies have contracts with EU bodies. It is possible, however mad it may seem, for a non EU company to interact with companies in the EU.


I think nobody denies that.
Point is that "interacting" will become more difficult and expensive, period.
Sure, some businesses will continue as is and accept losing margin, but others just can't.
On EU side they'll only have to look elsewhere in EU to keep same trade conditions to interact...
On UK side though, you only have intra UK ops to be guaranteed as "no worse" trade conditions than the one you enjoy within the SM.

There lies the madness.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:37 am

A101 wrote:
.

Klaus wrote:
So complex and costly certification regimes will become necessary to do the same business which had been almost effortless before Brexit, and any kind of meaningful divergence can throw up complete roadblocks at any moment.
Sounds like a "great" situation Brexit is creating for the UK, while EU businesses just continue to work unimpeded, competing on the basis of the full benefits of EU membership.


Those groups that still want to export to the EU after the UK leaves would still need to be certified by the EU no matter if Johnson diverges or not. They are not going to be changing their current practice because it already meets EU standards


Certification often disrupts production processes, too.

For example they will have to keep physical separation between EU-compliant and non-EU compliant processes if they want to have a shot at the cheaper domestic market (cheaper because of lower cost imports).

It won't be business as usual, that's for certain.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:46 am

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
.

Klaus wrote:
So complex and costly certification regimes will become necessary to do the same business which had been almost effortless before Brexit, and any kind of meaningful divergence can throw up complete roadblocks at any moment.
Sounds like a "great" situation Brexit is creating for the UK, while EU businesses just continue to work unimpeded, competing on the basis of the full benefits of EU membership.


Those groups that still want to export to the EU after the UK leaves would still need to be certified by the EU no matter if Johnson diverges or not. They are not going to be changing their current practice because it already meets EU standards


Certification often disrupts production processes, too.

For example they will have to keep physical separation between EU-compliant and non-EU compliant processes if they want to have a shot at the cheaper domestic market (cheaper because of lower cost imports).

It won't be business as usual, that's for certain.


:checkmark: correct, major companies can deal with it, small and midsize companies will loose part of their business for sure, they have to choose, one way or the other, they can't do both.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:38 pm

Arion640 wrote:
LJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

That makes sense. So after brexit we can switch to using British companies. Fantastic.


Unless the UK wants to be able to bid for EU government contracts. It will be another thing the UK will gve to the EU as UK companies want to be able to bid for these lucrative contracts.


That’s fine, signs we’ll have a good trading partnership then.

I’m sure US companies have contracts with EU bodies. It is possible, however mad it may seem, for a non EU company to interact with companies in the EU.


Hang on. Nobody claimed that EU companies and non-EU companies cannot interact on a reciprocal bases. You are the one who proposed shutting European companies out after Brexit. That backfired quite quickly, didn't it?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:45 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
LJ wrote:

Unless the UK wants to be able to bid for EU government contracts. It will be another thing the UK will gve to the EU as UK companies want to be able to bid for these lucrative contracts.


That’s fine, signs we’ll have a good trading partnership then.

I’m sure US companies have contracts with EU bodies. It is possible, however mad it may seem, for a non EU company to interact with companies in the EU.


Hang on. Nobody claimed that EU companies and non-EU companies cannot interact on a reciprocal bases. You are the one who proposed shutting European companies out after Brexit. That backfired quite quickly, didn't it?


Again much like Dutchy, you bring up stuff I’ve never actually said.
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:23 am

My company has significant contracts in the UK, contracts that I don't think any US company has in the EU (and the reverse). For example it manages the Interior Ministry office buildings, more than 100 people work there. I'm sure they have been through background checks and the like. Then our parent company is building nuclear reactors for another French company that will exploit them...

I have no involvement in any of this, but from what I hear there are no significant worries about Brexit.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:15 pm

I suspect most simple company to company international trading will be quickly solvable. It is as complexity is added that the paperwork increases, sometimes seemingly exponentially. A border is by definition a friction, sometimes to the point of stoppage. A friend spent a year working regularly in Canada, he never knew, one Monday to the next, whether or not he would get across the border until he faced the Canadian official. He and his company just lived with it.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:02 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect most simple company to company international trading will be quickly solvable.


Manufactured goods are for the most part easy stuff. It gets trickier for food/agri/pharma and big ticket services (insurance, finance, etc.)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:55 pm

JJJ wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect most simple company to company international trading will be quickly solvable.


Manufactured goods are for the most part easy stuff. It gets trickier for food/agri/pharma and big ticket services (insurance, finance, etc.)


Friend was in big ticket services. And this was when the US and Canada were getting along! And incidentally cheese (yes cheese) was one of the big sticking points. Economists on both sides observed that cheese did not amount to a 'hill of beans' in importance to either side, but was one of the issues both sides drew a hard line on. And the results bounced and emerged all along the border.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:02 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
JJJ wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect most simple company to company international trading will be quickly solvable.


Manufactured goods are for the most part easy stuff. It gets trickier for food/agri/pharma and big ticket services (insurance, finance, etc.)


Friend was in big ticket services. And this was when the US and Canada were getting along! And incidentally cheese (yes cheese) was one of the big sticking points. Economists on both sides observed that cheese did not amount to a 'hill of beans' in importance to either side, but was one of the issues both sides drew a hard line on. And the results bounced and emerged all along the border.


Precisely. Food is a very sensitive item, and farmers tend to be reliable block voters. Add in the inevitable food nationalism (how many countries are there claiming their cheese/beer/meat/etc. is best of the world, bar none?) And you see politicians giving negotiators very little room for maneuver.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:11 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I’m sure US companies have contracts with EU bodies. It is possible, however mad it may seem, for a non EU company to interact with companies in the EU.


I think nobody denies that.
Point is that "interacting" will become more difficult and expensive, period.
Sure, some businesses will continue as is and accept losing margin, but others just can't.
On EU side they'll only have to look elsewhere in EU to keep same trade conditions to interact...
On UK side though, you only have intra UK ops to be guaranteed as "no worse" trade conditions than the one you enjoy within the SM.

There lies the madness.


I think the issue Brexiteers have is understanding the difference between future trade being impossible versus uncompetitive. No-one is saying the UK *can't* continue to trade, they're saying the UK will be *at a sudden disadvantage* as it continues to trade.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:18 pm

JJJ wrote:
inevitable food nationalism (how many countries are there claiming their cheese/beer/meat/etc. is best of the world, bar none?)


Absolutely... in all the European countries I've lived it is somehow "the best" beef in the supermarket only if it has the national flag on it. I always get a laugh when I see all the huge Union Jack stickers and posters in UK branches of German supermarket Lidl...

Incidentally, this is not at all the case in South East Asia - there the more exotic the better. They might be fiercely proud of their local cuisine, but in terms of "quality" it's New Zealand lamb, French wine, Japanese TVs, etc. all the way.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:45 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
JJJ wrote:
inevitable food nationalism (how many countries are there claiming their cheese/beer/meat/etc. is best of the world, bar none?)


Absolutely... in all the European countries I've lived it is somehow "the best" beef in the supermarket only if it has the national flag on it. I always get a laugh when I see all the huge Union Jack stickers and posters in UK branches of German supermarket Lidl...

Incidentally, this is not at all the case in South East Asia - there the more exotic the better. They might be fiercely proud of their local cuisine, but in terms of "quality" it's New Zealand lamb, French wine, Japanese TVs, etc. all the way.


British beef amongst other northern european countries is mainly grass fed so people believe that generally transfers into better quality.
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