noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
While the UK is not a small economy it still is not a big economy.


It is the 5th largest in the world.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:21 pm

The flows change fast inside Europe right now.

Poland is today more important as trading partner then UK for Germany.

The question is always if the loss of single market can be worth the price of being nice to UK.

If you see this from EU27 perspective is this question yes or no?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:24 pm

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
Guy Verhofstadt is still trying to place new demands for the Withdrawal Agreement to pass the EU Parliament. Do those who live on the continent believe that the EU Parliament should fail to ratify the agreement if the UK dose not give provisional agreement to align with the EU in the FTA, and what do you think are the chances are of the UK leaving without a deal at the end of month?.....or are you resigned to the EU Parliament being a rubber stamp in the withdrawl process?


The only reason for which I could see the EU Parliament rejecting the WA is if it does not find the UK guarantees about the status of Northern Ireland strong enough. But I assume that Barnier did his job well, so the WA will be ratified.


They have to ratify it otherwise it’s no deal exit
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:25 pm

olle wrote:
The flows change fast inside Europe right now.

Poland is today more important as trading partner then UK for Germany.

The question is always if the loss of single market can be worth the price of being nice to UK.

If you see this from EU27 perspective is this question yes or no?


Well considering Poland borders a huge portion of Germany, that really doesn’t shock me to be honest.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:03 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So? What has the timing of the vote got to do with anything. As we have learned, extensions are readily available if needed. Your premise is wrong. You want to blame the EU parliament if they want to amend something. You basically want the EU parliament to be a rubber stamp parliament, but it isn't. Personally, I don't think the EU will vote it down, but we'll see.


No, do show where I'm blaming the EU parliament if they want to make an amendments to the withdrawal agreement, you have to ask the EU Parliament about being a rubber stamp for the withdrawal agreement, voting on it two days before Exit day and the EU Parliament not having a mechanism to ask for an extension, for that the EU requires a unanimous agreement from within the European Council. Gina Miller didn't go to the ECJ about giving the EU Parliament oversight to force the Council to ask for extensions.

Why would the UK or for that matter the EU council ask for a extension before the vote in the EU parliament?

That wouldn't make any sense, why anybody do that? Dutchy suggested that and I missed it ?
A101 wrote:
What leverage do you think do you think the EU has over the UK government to grant an extension 2 days before Exit day?

Why any leverage needed ? You know, nothing stops EU commission to OFFER an extension if for any reason the WA isn't ratified before extension deadline. Up to UK to accept or exit no deal: would you bet your house Ursula VDL wouldn't receive an agreement letter from #10 (doesn't even have to be signed, lol) ?

Really wondering why you feel the need to argue about such an hypothetical situation (EU Parl to reject the WA), it feels you like the topic of Brexit to be under pressure, storylined like a TV show. Come on, this part of the show is over, UK will be out soon, next deadline is july (?) only to confirm no transition period extension... Let's move to phase II !
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:31 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:



Really wondering why you feel the need to argue about such an hypothetical situation (EU Parl to reject the WA), it feels you like the topic of Brexit to be under pressure, storylined like a TV show. Come on, this part of the show is over, UK will be out soon, next deadline is july (?) only to confirm no transition period extension... Let's move to phase II !


Actually I'm not arguing you and AeroVega gave plausible reason to why Guy Verhofstadt is continuing to make assertions that the EU Parliament may not ratify the agreement and the likelihood of it doing so. I'm just trying to understand Guy Verhofstadt point in trying to make amendments before the EU Parliament actually votes, after all the extensions from the UK Parliament was after voting intentions were made and well before exit day. Dutchy is trying to make out that I'm blaming the EU for not ratifying the agreement when in fact I don't give a damn if they do or not.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:51 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy is trying to make out that I'm blaming the EU for not ratifying the agreement when in fact I don't give a damn if they do or not.


Given the way you argue, given the importance of the vote, given the consequences, I tend not to believe this statement, sorry. Because if this is true, then you truly don't give a damn what is going to happen to the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:52 pm

Here is a link to the various world economies ranked by size. It gives a much better discussion. Hint - the UK is not all that big. This ranking had no connection with Brexit or even the UK in particular. The biggest metric difference is that the UK pulling out of the EU makes the US the second largest, only after China. I suspect that these figures are PPE but am not sure.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy is trying to make out that I'm blaming the EU for not ratifying the agreement when in fact I don't give a damn if they do or not.


Given the way you argue, given the importance of the vote, given the consequences, I tend not to believe this statement, sorry. Because if this is true, then you truly don't give a damn what is going to happen to the UK.


Once again you are entitled to your own opinion, que sera sera
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:41 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Here is a link to the various world economies ranked by size. It gives a much better discussion. Hint - the UK is not all that big. This ranking had no connection with Brexit or even the UK in particular. The biggest metric difference is that the UK pulling out of the EU makes the US the second largest, only after China. I suspect that these figures are PPE but am not sure.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


The problem with using that metric it that the EU is a collective at the moment its not a federation yet, when adjusted to nation states within the EU individually they just cannot compete in size either. Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:57 am

BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:53 am

Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.



Would be interesting to see if that was the case, whatever sweeteners Johnson may have needed in the past Parliament is not need in the current Parliament. at its core the WA itself hasn't changed between Johnson and the EU
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:38 am

A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Here is a link to the various world economies ranked by size. It gives a much better discussion. Hint - the UK is not all that big. This ranking had no connection with Brexit or even the UK in particular. The biggest metric difference is that the UK pulling out of the EU makes the US the second largest, only after China. I suspect that these figures are PPE but am not sure.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


The problem with using that metric it that the EU is a collective at the moment its not a federation yet, when adjusted to nation states within the EU individually they just cannot compete in size either. Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list



I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. If that is your framework, then we can argue that the UK is also at the brink of falling apart, so we can't compare anything? Seriously, what is your point? There is no reason to argue with you anymore, you seem to live in a different reality. All facts are just put aside and it is all about feelings with you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Here is a link to the various world economies ranked by size. It gives a much better discussion. Hint - the UK is not all that big. This ranking had no connection with Brexit or even the UK in particular. The biggest metric difference is that the UK pulling out of the EU makes the US the second largest, only after China. I suspect that these figures are PPE but am not sure.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


The problem with using that metric it that the EU is a collective at the moment its not a federation yet, when adjusted to nation states within the EU individually they just cannot compete in size either. Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list



I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. If that is your framework, then we can argue that the UK is also at the brink of falling apart, so we can't compare anything? Seriously, what is your point? There is no reason to argue with you anymore, you seem to live in a different reality. All facts are just put aside and it is all about feelings with you.


Did I present something that was not a fact?

Is the EU not a collective of nations that gives it comparative size to that to the largest single nation economy of the world?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:27 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

The problem with using that metric it that the EU is a collective at the moment its not a federation yet, when adjusted to nation states within the EU individually they just cannot compete in size either. Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list



I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. If that is your framework, then we can argue that the UK is also at the brink of falling apart, so we can't compare anything? Seriously, what is your point? There is no reason to argue with you anymore, you seem to live in a different reality. All facts are just put aside and it is all about feelings with you.


Did I present something that was not a fact?

Is the EU not a collective of nations that gives it comparative size to that to the largest single nation economy of the world?



this frame: "Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list", the world sees it quite differently and deals with the EU as a single economy, so no reason to set it apart like you want.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. If that is your framework, then we can argue that the UK is also at the brink of falling apart, so we can't compare anything? Seriously, what is your point? There is no reason to argue with you anymore, you seem to live in a different reality. All facts are just put aside and it is all about feelings with you.


Did I present something that was not a fact?

Is the EU not a collective of nations that gives it comparative size to that to the largest single nation economy of the world?



this frame: "Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list", the world sees it quite differently and deals with the EU as a single economy, so no reason to set it apart like you want.


Is it not a fact that any member of the EU can invoke A50 to leave?

Out of the top 5 nation within the article linked China, EU,US, India & Japan do any of them have the ability to leave and to separate without creating a new nation state only members of the EU has that ability to do so.

And since Germany/United Kingdom are also listed in the top ten doesn't it defeat the purpose as both create the distinction of the EU economy either the EU economy is sovereign or the Germany/United Kingdom is the statistics are either EU or not.

For the list to be accurate member nations either have to be treated as single economy of the EU or Sovereign Germany/United Kingdom economy you should not be listed twice

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:19 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Did I present something that was not a fact?

Is the EU not a collective of nations that gives it comparative size to that to the largest single nation economy of the world?



this frame: "Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list", the world sees it quite differently and deals with the EU as a single economy, so no reason to set it apart like you want.


Is it not a fact that any member of the EU can invoke A50 to leave?

Out of the top 5 nation within the article linked China, EU,US, India & Japan do any of them have the ability to leave and to separate without creating a new nation state only members of the EU has that ability to do so.

And since Germany/United Kingdom are also listed in the top ten doesn't it defeat the purpose as both create the distinction of the EU economy either the EU economy is sovereign or the Germany/United Kingdom is the statistics are either EU or not.

For the list to be accurate member nations either have to be treated as single economy of the EU or Sovereign Germany/United Kingdom economy you should not be listed twice

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


What is your point, pointing this out? It is not beyond the whelm of possibilities that China will go into unrest and might eventually brake-up, the same goes for the UK on that list.
Point is, for all-purpose of international trade, the EU functions as one nation and has been doing so for quite some time. Merkel needed to point it out to Trump 7 times that the US can't do a deal with Germany, it needed to go to Brussels. And why are nations doing it? To have the power to be equal to China and US. The UK is small in comparison and that is the whole point. Even if the UK manages to stay together - except for Northern Ireland, that will stay within the EU market - it will be the underdog in any big trade negotiations: China, EU and USA. And that's why the UK can't have a better deal than it currently has, and that's why that Brexit is beneficial to the UK in an economic sense is complete bull.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:


this frame: "Any member can choose to withdraw at anytime unlike the other economies within that list", the world sees it quite differently and deals with the EU as a single economy, so no reason to set it apart like you want.


Is it not a fact that any member of the EU can invoke A50 to leave?

Out of the top 5 nation within the article linked China, EU,US, India & Japan do any of them have the ability to leave and to separate without creating a new nation state only members of the EU has that ability to do so.

And since Germany/United Kingdom are also listed in the top ten doesn't it defeat the purpose as both create the distinction of the EU economy either the EU economy is sovereign or the Germany/United Kingdom is the statistics are either EU or not.

For the list to be accurate member nations either have to be treated as single economy of the EU or Sovereign Germany/United Kingdom economy you should not be listed twice

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


What is your point, pointing this out? It is not beyond the whelm of possibilities that China will go into unrest and might eventually brake-up, the same goes for the UK on that list.
Point is, for all-purpose of international trade, the EU functions as one nation and has been doing so for quite some time. Merkel needed to point it out to Trump 7 times that the US can't do a deal with Germany, it needed to go to Brussels. And why are nations doing it? To have the power to be equal to China and US. The UK is small in comparison and that is the whole point. Even if the UK manages to stay together - except for Northern Ireland, that will stay within the EU market - it will be the underdog in any big trade negotiations: China, EU and USA. And that's why the UK can't have a better deal than it currently has, and that's why that Brexit is beneficial to the UK in an economic sense is complete bull.


The point is the EU is a collective of nations to reach that economic point, no single member of the EU has the ability to reach the top 5 economies of the world that is the whole point, you want to boast have having the economic power to tackle China and the US as a single market then list individual countries you are either a single market or not because all member nations try to outdo each other economically. Which is only understandable because at the end of the day the Prime Minister/President is only accountable to its nations citizens

Merkel is correct to tell trump they need to talk to brussels to get a FTA signed, but trade will still be done on an individual basis with member states under collective rules of the EU
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:46 am

The EU can not afford to not get the British money, they will agree.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:51 am

Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.


It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:03 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Is it not a fact that any member of the EU can invoke A50 to leave?

Out of the top 5 nation within the article linked China, EU,US, India & Japan do any of them have the ability to leave and to separate without creating a new nation state only members of the EU has that ability to do so.

And since Germany/United Kingdom are also listed in the top ten doesn't it defeat the purpose as both create the distinction of the EU economy either the EU economy is sovereign or the Germany/United Kingdom is the statistics are either EU or not.

For the list to be accurate member nations either have to be treated as single economy of the EU or Sovereign Germany/United Kingdom economy you should not be listed twice

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-larg ... my-3306044


What is your point, pointing this out? It is not beyond the whelm of possibilities that China will go into unrest and might eventually brake-up, the same goes for the UK on that list.
Point is, for all-purpose of international trade, the EU functions as one nation and has been doing so for quite some time. Merkel needed to point it out to Trump 7 times that the US can't do a deal with Germany, it needed to go to Brussels. And why are nations doing it? To have the power to be equal to China and US. The UK is small in comparison and that is the whole point. Even if the UK manages to stay together - except for Northern Ireland, that will stay within the EU market - it will be the underdog in any big trade negotiations: China, EU and USA. And that's why the UK can't have a better deal than it currently has, and that's why that Brexit is beneficial to the UK in an economic sense is complete bull.


The point is the EU is a collective of nations to reach that economic point, no single member of the EU has the ability to reach the top 5 economies of the world that is the whole point, you want to boast have having the economic power to tackle China and the US as a single market then list individual countries you are either a single market or not because all member nations try to outdo each other economically. Which is only understandable because at the end of the day the Prime Minister/President is only accountable to its nations citizens

Merkel is correct to tell trump they need to talk to brussels to get a FTA signed, but trade will still be done on an individual basis with member states under collective rules of the EU


So you do get it why there is an EU and why it is a great idea to have one and yet you still want Brexit.....................
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:03 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU can not afford to not get the British money, they will agree.


False narrative..........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:04 am

Arion640 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.


It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.


Yup, Johnson can do whatever he wants, but he still has to deal with the EU. If you want a deal, you need both parties to agree.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.


It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.


Yup, Johnson can do whatever he wants, but he still has to deal with the EU. If you want a deal, you need both parties to agree.


Yes of course. But if your EU doesn’t ratify now it will just be a no deal exit. We’ve (finally) done our bit.
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:37 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.


Yup, Johnson can do whatever he wants, but he still has to deal with the EU. If you want a deal, you need both parties to agree.


Yes of course. But if your EU doesn’t ratify now it will just be a no deal exit. We’ve (finally) done our bit.


I don't know what kind of deal was adopted. If it is the integral deal without anything else, you are right, the UK finally did its bit and now the EU must adopt it. If there are all kinds of amendments or special things, then there is a new situation and you, as you so eloquently put it, done your bit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What is your point, pointing this out? It is not beyond the whelm of possibilities that China will go into unrest and might eventually brake-up, the same goes for the UK on that list.
Point is, for all-purpose of international trade, the EU functions as one nation and has been doing so for quite some time. Merkel needed to point it out to Trump 7 times that the US can't do a deal with Germany, it needed to go to Brussels. And why are nations doing it? To have the power to be equal to China and US. The UK is small in comparison and that is the whole point. Even if the UK manages to stay together - except for Northern Ireland, that will stay within the EU market - it will be the underdog in any big trade negotiations: China, EU and USA. And that's why the UK can't have a better deal than it currently has, and that's why that Brexit is beneficial to the UK in an economic sense is complete bull.


The point is the EU is a collective of nations to reach that economic point, no single member of the EU has the ability to reach the top 5 economies of the world that is the whole point, you want to boast have having the economic power to tackle China and the US as a single market then list individual countries you are either a single market or not because all member nations try to outdo each other economically. Which is only understandable because at the end of the day the Prime Minister/President is only accountable to its nations citizens

Merkel is correct to tell trump they need to talk to brussels to get a FTA signed, but trade will still be done on an individual basis with member states under collective rules of the EU


So you do get it why there is an EU and why it is a great idea to have one and yet you still want Brexit.....................


Because the above only talks about trade, if the EU was only a trade union and not a ever closer political union I doubt that there would be an Exit.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yup, Johnson can do whatever he wants, but he still has to deal with the EU. If you want a deal, you need both parties to agree.


Yes of course. But if your EU doesn’t ratify now it will just be a no deal exit. We’ve (finally) done our bit.


I don't know what kind of deal was adopted. If it is the integral deal without anything else, you are right, the UK finally did its bit and now the EU must adopt it. If there are all kinds of amendments or special things, then there is a new situation and you, as you so eloquently put it, done your bit.



What do you mean you don’t know what deal was adopted.....the actual WA or the sweeteners boris tried to us to get the WA passed?

He hasn’t changed the actual agreement only removed the sweeteners
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:21 pm

And if the EU was a Brit creation, there will be no Eu at all :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:
olle wrote:
The flows change fast inside Europe right now.

Poland is today more important as trading partner then UK for Germany.

The question is always if the loss of single market can be worth the price of being nice to UK.

If you see this from EU27 perspective is this question yes or no?


Well considering Poland borders a huge portion of Germany, that really doesn’t shock me to be honest.


That is of course obvious, but flows are changing and the countries grow together. And harmonization and avoiding paperwork between the countries enables this. It is a big difference passing the border norway to sweden compared to denmark germany.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.


It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.


But some of those things are part of the agreement with the EU ! So now he's changing the agreement with the EU (in fact he isn't, but he's indicating he plans to renege on promises). So the EU, who still has to ratify the agreement, can refuse to do so.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:14 pm

Olddog wrote:
And if the EU was a Brit creation, there will be no Eu at all :)



One would never know, as that is alternative history.

But there exist a similar system under the Empire Marketing Board which was hoped to be the beginning of the Commonwealth free trade post WWII, but as the UK was effectively broke after WWII it could not afford the imports from across the commonwealth, Canada for instance began to trade more heavily with the US. Post WWII the US economy was the most intact of all western economy and power it heavily influence with GATT and the Bretton Woods conference began the cycle of the USD being the reserve currency
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:20 pm

I can't really understand how our European friends seem to believe that the UK will be a lot worse without the EU, and that the sky will fall once they leave the EU. Turns out the British people have voted for this, and not respecting their will and keep telling them that without the EU they will die, its ludicrous and condescending.

I really hope the UK does a clean Brexit, completely, just so that the globalist post modernist elite can really see that they are all over their heads with their 'EU' experiment.

Turns out people want to decide for them what they want, not being told by un-elected bureaucrats what they should do and how bad they will be once they leave.

All the power to them!
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:22 pm

Oh but I am sure you envisioned a construction that was only for UK interest. And you can guess why nobody, including your old colonies were interested in.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
BoJo has changed the WA bill from the one that was voted on (and passed its first reading) before the election, removing the sweeteners he had put in to please enough opposition MPs to vote for it. So it's very possible that now, the EU parliament will not accept that new version.


It is likely sweeteners from the old parliament. He has a huge majority. He could voted through whatever he wanted.


But some of those things are part of the agreement with the EU ! So now he's changing the agreement with the EU (in fact he isn't, but he's indicating he plans to renege on promises). So the EU, who still has to ratify the agreement, can refuse to do so.



I think the point here is that UK need to respect the democratic process. EU parliament has a veto over the process and the parliament has agreed to some red lines it will not pass. If the agreement is found to not comply with the red lines it shall not be accepted.

One of these is for example hoe EU citizens will be treated in UK. And brexiteers need to recognize that in for example Poland this is extremly important or NI border with ROI.

UK has not understood yet that there is UK vs EU27 and exactly like UK EU27 with Pariament as last defence has also powers and need to be respected.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:54 pm

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
And if the EU was a Brit creation, there will be no Eu at all :)



One would never know, as that is alternative history.

But there exist a similar system under the Empire Marketing Board which was hoped to be the beginning of the Commonwealth free trade post WWII, but as the UK was effectively broke after WWII it could not afford the imports from across the commonwealth, Canada for instance began to trade more heavily with the US. Post WWII the US economy was the most intact of all western economy and power it heavily influence with GATT and the Bretton Woods conference began the cycle of the USD being the reserve currency


The UK view of European policy and power sharing is in some way stucked in 1814 where Austria, Russia, Preussen, UK and France was playing a game where the game was to play them against each other without considering the interest of smaller countries.

Today Russia and UK see the European politics still in this manner.

The others has moved on.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:20 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:



Really wondering why you feel the need to argue about such an hypothetical situation (EU Parl to reject the WA), it feels you like the topic of Brexit to be under pressure, storylined like a TV show. Come on, this part of the show is over, UK will be out soon, next deadline is july (?) only to confirm no transition period extension... Let's move to phase II !


Actually I'm not arguing you and AeroVega gave plausible reason to why Guy Verhofstadt is continuing to make assertions that the EU Parliament may not ratify the agreement and the likelihood of it doing so. I'm just trying to understand Guy Verhofstadt point in trying to make amendments before the EU Parliament actually votes, after all the extensions from the UK Parliament was after voting intentions were made and well before exit day. Dutchy is trying to make out that I'm blaming the EU for not ratifying the agreement when in fact I don't give a damn if they do or not.


Aerovega's "plausible reason" is that EU Parliament would wake up, 3 months after the WA have been released, and suddenly fear the guarantee for NI aren't secured enough. Excuse me but 1) Verhofstadt grief is about citizen rights so nothing to do, and 2) sorry my friend but you shouldn't transpose UK way of working with EU's, while UK agenda was busy with the GE the EU was working as usual, if a blocking point appeared for Parliament it would have been discussed way earlier. It haven't = all you ear now is noise and ground taking for next stage.
Maybe it's my " taking ground" that doesn't mean much in english ? I expand, GV mission as Brexit coordinator for the EU Parliament is coming to its end so he is simply putting pressure while he still can and there is absolutely nothing more behind this.
If the session is to vote is so late it's only because for the last 3 deadlines EU had to react to a late extension request from UK, you can't blame EU Parliament to just wait to be sure this time UK made up its mind ! It's as good as done, you are nearly out, let's move to phase II !
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:06 pm

The UK wants respect for its sovereignty - so does the EU. The UK wants to be free to trade however it wants with the rest of the world - so does the EU (and the UK will be part of the rest of the world). The UK wants to be free to set standards for good, food, fishing, finance - so does the EU. There are overlapping areas, where negotiations and compromises will be needed. Those agreements typically take years. (NAFTA is suppose to be updated and improved by the US President - it still hasn't happened) .
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:50 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I can't really understand how our European friends seem to believe that the UK will be a lot worse without the EU, and that the sky will fall once they leave the EU. Turns out the British people have voted for this, and not respecting their will and keep telling them that without the EU they will die, its ludicrous and condescending.

I really hope the UK does a clean Brexit, completely, just so that the globalist post modernist elite can really see that they are all over their heads with their 'EU' experiment.

Turns out people want to decide for them what they want, not being told by un-elected bureaucrats what they should do and how bad they will be once they leave.

All the power to them!


Well the problem with that is the Tory party are the ultimate globalists. They don't care one bit about their country, only money matters. They talk about "Singapore on Thames", well Singapore doesn't work without globalism. Money flowing as freely as possible, as little taxed as possible, with as little scrutiny as to how it was earned as possible.

Plenty of vocal Brexiters have EU passports, or are acquiring them right now, when they have not fled to Singapore that is (the real one). That says everything you need to know about Brexit.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:42 pm

Aesma wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I can't really understand how our European friends seem to believe that the UK will be a lot worse without the EU, and that the sky will fall once they leave the EU. Turns out the British people have voted for this, and not respecting their will and keep telling them that without the EU they will die, its ludicrous and condescending.

I really hope the UK does a clean Brexit, completely, just so that the globalist post modernist elite can really see that they are all over their heads with their 'EU' experiment.

Turns out people want to decide for them what they want, not being told by un-elected bureaucrats what they should do and how bad they will be once they leave.

All the power to them!


Well the problem with that is the Tory party are the ultimate globalists. They don't care one bit about their country, only money matters. They talk about "Singapore on Thames", well Singapore doesn't work without globalism. Money flowing as freely as possible, as little taxed as possible, with as little scrutiny as to how it was earned as possible.

Plenty of vocal Brexiters have EU passports, or are acquiring them right now, when they have not fled to Singapore that is (the real one). That says everything you need to know about Brexit.


Yes, I agree for a long time conservatives have been the globalists, just amazed how things have turned around to be the opposite nowadays, no other party in Britain seemed to be more committed than the tories on the last election to Brexit.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:17 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Well the problem with that is the Tory party are the ultimate globalists. They don't care one bit about their country, only money matters. They talk about "Singapore on Thames", well Singapore doesn't work without globalism. Money flowing as freely as possible, as little taxed as possible, with as little scrutiny as to how it was earned as possible.

Plenty of vocal Brexiters have EU passports, or are acquiring them right now, when they have not fled to Singapore that is (the real one). That says everything you need to know about Brexit.


Yes, I agree for a long time conservatives have been the globalists, just amazed how things have turned around to be the opposite nowadays, no other party in Britain seemed to be more committed than the tories on the last election to Brexit.


As Aesma pointed out to you, they're still globalist as the whole goal of Brexit is to conclude FTAs themselves and not to be subjected to any form of outside regulation (as if you can combine both......). The persons behind Brexit do not have any interest in "Little Britain" and will sell their souls (or better, those of the other British citizens) should it result in a higher return for them. They want to be able to sell their products only without a level playing field (see bonus of City managers discussion). If that doesn't work, and they're hit financially, expect that they reverse some of the rhetoric on Brexit.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:22 pm

LJ wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Well the problem with that is the Tory party are the ultimate globalists. They don't care one bit about their country, only money matters. They talk about "Singapore on Thames", well Singapore doesn't work without globalism. Money flowing as freely as possible, as little taxed as possible, with as little scrutiny as to how it was earned as possible.

Plenty of vocal Brexiters have EU passports, or are acquiring them right now, when they have not fled to Singapore that is (the real one). That says everything you need to know about Brexit.


Yes, I agree for a long time conservatives have been the globalists, just amazed how things have turned around to be the opposite nowadays, no other party in Britain seemed to be more committed than the tories on the last election to Brexit.


As Aesma pointed out to you, they're still globalist as the whole goal of Brexit is to conclude FTAs themselves and not to be subjected to any form of outside regulation (as if you can combine both......). The persons behind Brexit do not have any interest in "Little Britain" and will sell their souls (or better, those of the other British citizens) should it result in a higher return for them. They want to be able to sell their products only without a level playing field (see bonus of City managers discussion). If that doesn't work, and they're hit financially, expect that they reverse some of the rhetoric on Brexit.


I think the bigger picture is more than 'financial' or 'selling'. From my US vantage point, it seems to me that the British people want to take control of their own country again. And its more complex than just a single issue.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
LJ wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Yes, I agree for a long time conservatives have been the globalists, just amazed how things have turned around to be the opposite nowadays, no other party in Britain seemed to be more committed than the tories on the last election to Brexit.


As Aesma pointed out to you, they're still globalist as the whole goal of Brexit is to conclude FTAs themselves and not to be subjected to any form of outside regulation (as if you can combine both......). The persons behind Brexit do not have any interest in "Little Britain" and will sell their souls (or better, those of the other British citizens) should it result in a higher return for them. They want to be able to sell their products only without a level playing field (see bonus of City managers discussion). If that doesn't work, and they're hit financially, expect that they reverse some of the rhetoric on Brexit.


I think the bigger picture is more than 'financial' or 'selling'. From my US vantage point, it seems to me that the British people want to take control of their own country again. And its more complex than just a single issue.


You've to differentiate between the ordinary Brexiteer who wants to "take back control" as it feels it has lost control to the EU and the elite who is into Brexit to get rid of those nasty EU regulations which prevent them to have high bonusses, increase their wealth and/or limit in their desire to control more of the UK economy. The latter group controls the Brexit process, the first group thinks that the latter cares about its interest. There is a reason why Rupert Murdoch supports Brexit and it has nothing to do with the good of the UK people (unless it's the same as the good of him personally). Besides Rupert Murdoch there are a lot of Britsh persons who will benefit greatly from a Brexit if it means it can get rid of regulation protecting others against big multinationals or their own paycheck. However, then comes the nasty EU again demanding a level playing field in exchange for a FTA...... They'll ask Boris to solve it, but he can't.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:38 pm

LJ wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
LJ wrote:

As Aesma pointed out to you, they're still globalist as the whole goal of Brexit is to conclude FTAs themselves and not to be subjected to any form of outside regulation (as if you can combine both......). The persons behind Brexit do not have any interest in "Little Britain" and will sell their souls (or better, those of the other British citizens) should it result in a higher return for them. They want to be able to sell their products only without a level playing field (see bonus of City managers discussion). If that doesn't work, and they're hit financially, expect that they reverse some of the rhetoric on Brexit.


I think the bigger picture is more than 'financial' or 'selling'. From my US vantage point, it seems to me that the British people want to take control of their own country again. And its more complex than just a single issue.


You've to differentiate between the ordinary Brexiteer who wants to "take back control" as it feels it has lost control to the EU and the elite who is into Brexit to get rid of those nasty EU regulations which prevent them to have high bonusses, increase their wealth and/or limit in their desire to control more of the UK economy. The latter group controls the Brexit process, the first group thinks that the latter cares about its interest. There is a reason why Rupert Murdoch supports Brexit and it has nothing to do with the good of the UK people (unless it's the same as the good of him personally). Besides Rupert Murdoch there are a lot of Britsh persons who will benefit greatly from a Brexit if it means it can get rid of regulation protecting others against big multinationals or their own paycheck. However, then comes the nasty EU again demanding a level playing field in exchange for a FTA...... They'll ask Boris to solve it, but he can't.


We could spend a lot of time thinking about many subjects. All it comes down to people who want control how to govern themselves. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels.

The British people don't want part of it, when I mean British people I mean the you meet in the street types, not the politicians or the elite.

Whether they are wrong to leave, that's up to them, but I happen to think they will do just fine.

However, we as freedom loving people should respect and support a sovereign and democratic decisions they have taken.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:05 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
We could spend a lot of time thinking about many subjects. All it comes down to people who want control how to govern themselves. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels.

Nearly nobody is able to name an actual law decided in Brussels (edit: or Strasbourg btw) and not supported by UK EP and/or UK public, but let's pretend :
By this token, why stop there, shouldn't people prefer to be govern even more locally? Let's say town by town rather than by some bureaucrat in London?
Last edited by Grizzly410 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:07 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
We could spend a lot of time thinking about many subjects. All it comes down to people who want control how to govern themselves. Not some bureaucrat in Brussels.

Nearly nobody is able to name an actual law decided in Brussels and not supported by UK EP and/or UK public, but let's pretend :
By this token, why stop there, shouldn't people prefer to be govern even more locally? Let's say town by town rather than by some bureaucrat in London?


Actually that's an argument my favorite economist Nobel laureate Milton Friedman has made for politics and government in the US.

In reality its much better if government works on a local level, and many arguments can be done in favor of that. Of course, defense and security on a national level a higher government is best. But we can run a long debate on that.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:41 pm

airbus are fully committed to the UK, and rightly so. What happened to them moving out?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/moneymav ... REXZKbTwsA
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:57 pm

LJ wrote:
You've to differentiate between the ordinary Brexiteer who wants to "take back control" as it feels it has lost control to the EU and the elite who is into Brexit to get rid of those nasty EU regulations which prevent them to have high bonusses, increase their wealth and/or limit in their desire to control more of the UK economy.

...but where is this coming from, as far as we know, the UK wealthy have continued to hide and move their wealth hence the scandal of the Panama papers, and the EU experts have been telling us that for the most part the UK wealthy have simply been using the EU as a scapegoat for their shenanigans, so technically, there is nothing for them to run away from...
If there was a EU threat to the high bonus payments that the financial folks in London receive and or give to themselves, it obviously was not that daunting to prompt them to vote LEAVE in any of the votes. London and the financial centers of the UK which is where a lot of wealthy folks reside has been pro EU more than anyone else.

Recall the remarks that only the old and the intolerant folks made up the initial 52 million who voted leave, if they were egged on by the wealthy, what was their true aim?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 pm

Arion640 wrote:
airbus are fully committed to the UK, and rightly so. What happened to them moving out?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/moneymav ... REXZKbTwsA


I haven’t seen that site before, looking through it I came across this, seems a bit odd but who knows

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economic ... lNuUHApB-w
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:16 am

Arion640 wrote:
airbus are fully committed to the UK, and rightly so. What happened to them moving out?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/moneymav ... REXZKbTwsA



“Airbus is committed to the U.K. and to working with the new government on an ambitious industrial strategy,”


Link

From the Bloomberg article. So how much will the UK pay from your tax-pounds to keep Airbus?
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
airbus are fully committed to the UK, and rightly so. What happened to them moving out?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/moneymav ... REXZKbTwsA



“Airbus is committed to the U.K. and to working with the new government on an ambitious industrial strategy,”


Link

From the Bloomberg article. So how much will the UK pay from your tax-pounds to keep Airbus?


What happened to Airbus leaving the UK?
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