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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:22 pm

A101 wrote:
There’s no other way the odds could go to get a deal or not it’s 50-50, if anything Its than that.


Of course the odds are less than 50-50 because Boris doesn't really want a deal. You'd have to be living under a rock if you think lying Boris is really trying to get a deal. Ask Amber Rudd.

A101 wrote:
So what do you think this magical plan from labour is, Will labour insist that the back stop must go as well before signing up. What is their solution?


Magical? Nothing magical. The backstop is only a problem for the Brexitards who yearn for the hardest of no deal Brexits.

It's pretty obvious what Labour's plan is - delay Brexit and negotiate a better deal without May's red lines. Offer the electorate an informed vote of remain or leave with the choice between improved deal 2.0 or no deal. Very reasonable, don't you think? I'm sure a reasonable leaver like yourself would welcome the chance to vote for the flavour of Brexit you'd prefer.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:47 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
There’s no other way the odds could go to get a deal or not it’s 50-50, if anything Its than that.


Of course the odds are less than 50-50 because Boris doesn't really want a deal. You'd have to be living under a rock if you think lying Boris is really trying to get a deal. Ask Amber Rudd.

A101 wrote:
So what do you think this magical plan from labour is, Will labour insist that the back stop must go as well before signing up. What is their solution?


Magical? Nothing magical. The backstop is only a problem for the Brexitards who yearn for the hardest of no deal Brexits.

It's pretty obvious what Labour's plan is - delay Brexit and negotiate a better deal without May's red lines. Offer the electorate an informed vote of remain or leave with the choice between improved deal 2.0 or no deal. Very reasonable, don't you think? I'm sure a reasonable leaver like yourself would welcome the chance to vote for the flavour of Brexit you'd prefer.



The prerequisite to that is signing the WA in its current form are you happy with becomeing a vassal state?
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
Magical? Nothing magical. The backstop is only a problem for the Brexitards who yearn for the hardest of no deal Brexits.

It's pretty obvious what Labour's plan is - delay Brexit and negotiate a better deal without May's red lines. Offer the electorate an informed vote of remain or leave with the choice between improved deal 2.0 or no deal. Very reasonable, don't you think? I'm sure a reasonable leaver like yourself would welcome the chance to vote for the flavour of Brexit you'd prefer.

Negotiate with whom, themselves? Is the belief in parliament that the EU is only blowing smoke when they say WA or nothing?
So far the two consistent things in this entire saga is the EU sticking to their guns and the parliament being against everything.
Is the parliament just like the Brexiters in believing that the EU will come around to their point of view, where have they given such an indication?
Last edited by par13del on Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:02 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
[
And MLP gone very, very quiet on the frexit idea for a loooong time now.


Of course she gone quiet she lost an election and with TM a pro remain Prime Minister showing what not to do in handling negotiations and how she just virtually rolled over on the EU demands which turned the negotiations into a dog and pony show


In 2017, the election she lost, frexit was already clearly out of her manisfesto.
At the time she bearely was promoting a treaty renegociation to get monetary sovereignty back. (ROTFL)
So no, this ridicule Brexit story didn't have any bearing on the RN policy.
At some point you will understand Eu-xit party accross EU are only there to get votes from "nostalgic" people, nobody ever thought about what life would have to be outside EU for real. But UK got trapped and have now to figure out once engaged in the process.... Get over it?
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:07 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
In 2017, the election she lost, frexit was already clearly out of her manisfesto.

The election in 2017 should have been called by DC in 2016 as his last final act to elect a government to implement or see through Brexit, as the sitting government were 100% against Brexit. It should not have been a PM resigning but the entire government, hindsight is always 20 / 20.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:30 pm

Dominic Raab on last week, I find it unbelievable that the journalist let him get away with a number of things. Especially the mantra from the government: Corbyn is a coward for not wanting an election while it is evident why that is. And the second thing, Dominic Raab doesn't understand of not willing to understand that this government is fundamentalistic in the sense that they seem to think, it is my way or the highway.

link
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:33 pm

I am very curious about what future historians will say about this political time in the UK. We will see in 25 years or so.
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:40 pm

Don't worry about the site but what he is actually saying, he would work on putting together a deal that he will vote against.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -says.html
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:51 pm

A101 wrote:
The prerequisite to that is signing the WA in its current form are you happy with becomeing a vassal state?


"Vassal state" is just an empty catchphrase thrown around by Brextremists. A newly negotiated deal would not be dependent on the current WA drawn up with May's red lines. That's nonsense.

par13del wrote:
Negotiate with whom, themselves? Is the belief in parliament that the EU is only blowing smoke when they say WA or nothing?


They would negotiate with the EU, obviously.

The current agreement is what it is because of May's red lines. Remove those red lines and there are a lot more possibilities.

par13del wrote:
Don't worry about the site but what he is actually saying, he would work on putting together a deal that he will vote against.


Well, the Daily Fail is rabidly in favour of a hard Brexit, so they're going to put their Brextremist slant on anything that's said. Just like Emily Thornberry, I don't think it's illogical to negotiate a new deal but be in favour of remaining in the EU.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
The prerequisite to that is signing the WA in its current form are you happy with becomeing a vassal state?


"Vassal state" is just an empty catchphrase thrown around by Brextremists.


Everything’s a catchphrase to a ramoner.
A vassal state is an actual end state not a catchphrase

scbriml wrote:
A newly negotiated deal would not be dependent on the current WA drawn up with May's red lines. That's nonsense.


It has been wildly reported and acknowledged by Brussels to get to the negotiations table for a future FTA is we have to sign the WA first, that’s they only way to get to a deal

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
Negotiate with whom, themselves? Is the belief in parliament that the EU is only blowing smoke when they say WA or nothing?

The current agreement is what it is because of May's red lines. Remove those red lines and there are a lot more possibilities.


The red lines are the minimum needed to actually leaving as by removing them we do not leave the jurisdiction of the EU/ECJ what’s the point to leaving then?
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:02 pm

Is it just me or is someone now arguing the opposite regards NI and vassal states now their beloved no deal exit is almost history?

Deal or remain are the options left. A deal is a pointless as it ever was. Karma for a tinpot PM who's gone all or nothing by attempting to circumvent Parliament, suspend democracy in the UK, oust loyal MPs and his next 'cunning plan' is to suspend EU democracy.
The buffoon will destroy the party by making it the right wing loonie party its often portrayed as.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:13 pm

Fast forward to October 31st. By law, the PM has to send a letter asking for a Brexit delay to Brussels.

What happens if Johnson just decides to hole up somewhere, without designating a deputy?

Interestingly, UK never agreed on a line of succession. There is also no law that specifies a Deputy PM. Parliament would have to enact a bill that enables a caretaker to exercise the office of the PM.

So, when October 31st comes, the EU commission can't just say "Well, we didn't get a letter from Johnson... but the parliament has decided so and so and we'll delay Brexit." The EU commission cannot waddle into UK constitutional law. It cannot decide for the UK Supreme Court. Only governments represent countries. Parliaments don't do that.

Holding a gun to Mr. Johnson's head and hoping that he prefers signing a letter to lying dead in a ditch could be the only way to delay Brexit.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dominic Raab on last week, I find it unbelievable that the journalist let him get away with a number of things. Especially the mantra from the government: Corbyn is a coward for not wanting an election while it is evident why that is. And the second thing, Dominic Raab doesn't understand of not willing to understand that this government is fundamentalistic in the sense that they seem to think, it is my way or the highway.

link


If you look at the comments people feel that she is too much a remainer, unfair to him, etc. They praise Sky News Australia, I watched a few videos, it's like watching Fox News, totally far right without even trying to pretend otherwise.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:22 pm

I think a deal with the EU is conceivable, basically the UK out of the EU, with a good relationship between the two, a reasonable trade deal, etc. It's conceivable, but not achievable, from the point we're at now. It will probably happen eventually, after 5 or 10 years more of misery, maybe with the UK having shed Scotland and NI in the meantime.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:27 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Is it just me or is someone now arguing the opposite regards NI and vassal states now their beloved no deal exit is almost history?


Care to expand please


ChrisKen wrote:
Deal or remain are the options left.


Well actully no it’s not, all parliment has achieved is once again moved exit day no deal is still the default position, the Speaker of the House and Miller v Secretary of State for leaving the European Union has shown that it’s needs to be legislated for the PM to revoke A50, the UK legislating no deal does not actually override A50 of the TEU



ChrisKen wrote:
A deal is a pointless as it ever was.



Yep I agree no matter who is in and now that the UK folded it’s only remains hand the only options are revoke or let A50 runn it’s cource with no deal, but we all know what anti Brexit parties will do if in power. No matter what the outcome the UK will remain divided for a very long time.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 am

It appears the BJ&LV are set for a meeting on the border issue, it seems strange to me that an Irish only backstop is being talked about again when it plainly would be against the Act of Union (Ireland) 1800 Article VI

That it be the sixth article of union, that his Majesty’s subjects of Great Britain and Ireland shall, from and after the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and one, be entitled to the same privileges, and be on the same footing as to encouragements and bounties on the like articles, being the growth, produce, or manufacture of either country respectively, and generally in respect of trade and navigation in all ports and places in the united kingdom and its dependencies; and that in all treaties made by his Majesty, his heirs, and successors, with any foreign power, his Majesty’s subjects of Ireland shall have same the privileges, and be on the same footing as his Majesty’s subjects of Great Britain.




https://www.ft.com/content/eb56d1be-d24 ... 7ebd53ab77

(Paywall I can only see it once every now and then)

Leo Varadkar plays down prospects of Brexit breakthrough

Irish prime minister to meet Boris Johnson for first time for talks on border

Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, has warned Boris Johnson that he should not expect any breakthrough in talks on the future of the Irish border as the UK premier makes his first visit to Dublin on Monday.
In comments that underline the challenge facing Mr Johnson ahead of a pivotal week for Brexit, Mr Varadkar said no other EU country shared Britain’s assessment that it was making progress in the talks.
Mr Johnson now says he is pouring his energies into trying to seek a new Brexit deal after MPs voted last week to pass legislation thwarting a no-deal Brexit.

If that is what’s being said, that‘s a very optimistic assessment of where we stand,” Mr Varadkar told reporters after touring new checkpoints at Dublin port that will be used to inspect UK cargo if Britain crashes out of the bloc without a deal next month.

“I don’t expect any big breakthroughs but I do think it’s an opportunity for us to establish a relationship.”

The UK prime minister has not met his Irish counterpart since taking office in July, although they have spoken twice by phone.

Mr Johnson is due to arrive for the high-stakes meeting with Mr Varadkar on Monday morning. Later, in London, he will try a second time to trigger a snap general election but the move is set to be blocked again by opposition MPs.

The administration has been damaged in recent days by the cabinet resignations of both Jo Johnson, the prime minister’s brother, and Amber Rudd, a personal friend — in protest at Number 10 sacking 21 MPs last week for backing the anti-no deal Brexit bill.

Amid the ministerial resignations and the loss of his parliamentary majority, Mr Varadkar questioned whether the UK leader could strike a new deal with Brussels.

“Prime Minister Johnson doesn’t have a majority so I’ll be asking him how he can convince us — Ireland and EU — that he is actually capable or has the votes to get a deal through.”
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:07 am

par13del wrote:
TM made it worse with a split cabinet, I place all the blame right there, no way can government function on such a major national issue which divided the country with a cabinet by personal consensus, leadership was required.

Sorry but this is straight up BS. TM appointed arch brexiteers including BoJo, Michael Gove and David Davis to the key positions relating to Brexit. The fact that all of them failed completely when it came to deliverables is on brexiteers, not remainers. Expecting TM to appoint the rest of her non Brexit related cabinet positions based on the way people voted on brexit is straight up moronic.

Boeing74741R wrote:

May became PM because she was the last person standing to become Tory party leader after Cameron announced his resignation. The only other candidate in the running towards the end was Andrea “I’ll make a better PM because I’m a mother” Leadsom.

Indeed. Leadsom was leading before that, wasn't she? Again that's on brexiteers that their leadership candidates weak.

Boeing74741R wrote:
May’s mistake was appeasing to the Brexiteer’s with rhetoric such as “Brexit means Brexit”, “no deal is better than a bad deal” and deciding that we must leave the CU/SM. The fatal mistake was blowing her majority and getting the DUP on board which precipitated the backstop becoming the elephant in the room.

:checkmark: The stupid red lines were May's folley and getting into bed with the DUP meant there was no way to fix it.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:09 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
The prerequisite to that is signing the WA in its current form are you happy with becomeing a vassal state?


"Vassal state" is just an empty catchphrase thrown around by Brextremists.


Everything’s a catchphrase to a ramoner.
A vassal state is an actual end state not a catchphrase


Just a friendly reminder that the UK is only "trapped" in the EU until an acceptable NI border solution is found. And since brexiteers keep twanging on about how easy it is to find an acceptable border solution, then there's no issue. Unless of course the brextremists are just bullshitting when they say they've got a border solution....but I'm sure they'd never do that. :scratchchin:

Speaking of which, we're still waiting for you to put up your very simple NI border solution just as we have done for about a year or so by now. I've already put up two or three proposals.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:19 am

flyingturtle wrote:
What happens if Johnson just decides to hole up somewhere, without designating a deputy?

Arrest maybe, though I have no trust whatsoever in the powerful being held to account. UK =\= USA but look at how often Trump blatantly violates the law without any consequences at all.

IMO it shows the need for a constitutional position higher than the president/PM that has a non-partisan committee of judges who have the power to hold the president/PM to account and prosecute them harshly if they step outside the bounds of their power or break the law.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:27 am

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Is it just me or is someone now arguing the opposite regards NI and vassal states now their beloved no deal exit is almost history?
Care to expand please

Ireland has spent years and years as a "Vassel State" of the UK. It's only fair for the roles to be reversed (but notice how loudly Brexiteers screech at the prospect of this). Brexitards suggesting that Ireland should leave the EU or microchip everyone so as to prevent the UK having border issues aren't helping. Same with Andrew Bridgen saying that everyone in the UK has the right to Irish citizenship.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U
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kaitak
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:54 am

zkojq wrote:
A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

"Vassal state" is just an empty catchphrase thrown around by Brextremists.


Everything’s a catchphrase to a ramoner.
A vassal state is an actual end state not a catchphrase


.


Ramoner??!! Really!

The sad thing about the "vassal state" concept is that the Brexiteers will truly find out what that means when they are outside the EU and the likes of the US (in particular) open trade negotiations; do you really, for a second think that these talks will be limited to trade. In the EU, you have a say; outside, you have none. The Americans will control your foreign policy far more than they do now - and wait until you see the trade deals you'll have with China, Japan, Korea, among others .

You'll still (like Norway) be following most of the rules, with none of the benefits - not to mention the tens of thousands of livelihoods you'll have destroyed before you really accept this.

I can't help thinking of the old legend of King Canute, who showed his obsequious courtiers that he could not hold the tide back. This is just what Brexiteers are trying to do: hold the world at bay and sell a pretence of a Britain that's truly independent. No one is truly independent - the world is now a global village. Interdependence is the key word. Of course, try and explain this to Brexiteers and it becomes Project Fear ... by all means, believe the likes of Boris, JRM and Farage, who really care so much about deprived areas in the North of England, let alone Wales, Scotland and NI.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:19 am

kaitak wrote:

The sad thing about the "vassal state" concept is that the Brexiteers will truly find out what that means when they are outside the EU and the likes of the US (in particular) open trade negotiations; do you really, for a second think that these talks will be limited to trade.

In the EU, you have a say; outside, you have none. The Americans will control your foreign policy far more than they do now - and wait until you see the trade deals you'll have with China, Japan, Korea, among others .

You'll still (like Norway) be following most of the rules, with none of the benefits - not to mention the tens of thousands of livelihoods you'll have destroyed before you really accept this.


I couldn't agree more with you on this, though in my mind this is why it's important for the UK to leave. At least a third of the Conservative Party has spent the past thirty years twannging on about how terrible and evil the EU and how everything will be sunshine and roses outside of it. All the ERG have been pushing this "academic leave" argument for so long and have been doing so very effectively so to me it's important that they get a cold hard dose of reality. Meanwhile the right wing press has spend that timeframe telling the commoners that all of Britain's problems are due to the EU (and immigrants, Muslims,
+ beneficiaries, but mainly the EU and Brussels), so again I think it's important for the UK to be out so that people can see how life is without the EU. People don't appreciate stuff until they're without it. I think a few years of self reflection could be great for the UK in the long term.

Let them join the EU again in a few years once they've worked out that leaving isn't so great and that the friendship with the US has lots of not-so-great strings attached. I hope clorinated chicken is tasty and that paying lots more for pharmaceuticals is makes people feel proud to support the relevant manufacturer and patent holder.

kaitak wrote:
This is just what Brexiteers are trying to do: hold the world at bay and sell a pretence of a Britain that's truly independent. No one is truly independent - the world is now a global village. Interdependence is the key word.


And this is why it's important that the UK does leave: otherwise the brexiteers will spend the next 40 years moaning about what could have been and about all the sunshine, rainbows and Brexit Unicorns that the UK is missing out on. Lots of people will believe them and treat them as enlightened intellectuals.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 am

Project Fear in full swing again. The UK has the strength and international standing to do without the EU and prosper.

I hope BoJo, asks for an extension but binds it to a demand the EU will not agree to meet. Like: "We are offering to extend the negotiations by 3 months, but only if you remove the backstop from the WA."
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:46 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
The prerequisite to that is signing the WA in its current form are you happy with becomeing a vassal state?


"Vassal state" is just an empty catchphrase thrown around by Brextremists. A newly negotiated deal would not be dependent on the current WA drawn up with May's red lines. That's nonsense.

par13del wrote:
Negotiate with whom, themselves? Is the belief in parliament that the EU is only blowing smoke when they say WA or nothing?


They would negotiate with the EU, obviously.

The current agreement is what it is because of May's red lines. Remove those red lines and there are a lot more possibilities.


What red line(s), if dropped, would lead to a better WA for the UK? I don't think there are any. I think the current WA is the best the UK can get regardless of any red lines.

To me it makes no sense for a country as big and powerful as the UK to commit to abide by rules it has no say in (hence May's red lines). The UK should be fully in the EU, or fully independent.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:51 am

AeroVega wrote:
To me it makes no sense for a country as big and powerful as the UK to commit to abide by rules it has no say in (hence May's red lines). The UK should be fully in the EU, or fully independent.


Part of UK's power is derived from being in international structures like the EU.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:06 am

seahawk wrote:
I hope BoJo, asks for an extension but binds it to a demand the EU will not agree to meet. Like: "We are offering to extend the negotiations by 3 months, but only if you remove the backstop from the WA."



That’s funny :rotfl:
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:56 am

Dutchy, time to post that Barnier's slide again for aerovega :)

PS never mind I found hundred links:

With a lot of details studied in your own HoL:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201719/ldselect/ldeucom/149/14905.htm

Image
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:27 am

A101 wrote:
Everything’s a catchphrase to a ramoner.


If you insist on referring to those of us who would prefer to remain in the EU as "remoaners", I shall refer to leavers as "Brexitards". Deal?

zkojq wrote:
TM appointed arch brexiteers including BoJo, Michael Gove and David Davis to the key positions relating to Brexit.


Not forgetting that other Brextremist Andrea Leadsom was made leader of the house.

zkojq wrote:
The fact that all of them failed completely when it came to deliverables is on brexiteers, not remainers.


Yep, despite all those super easy trade deals and the EU needing us more than we need them, etc, they all tried (not very hard by all accounts) and gave up. Contemptible.

AeroVega wrote:
The UK should be fully in the EU, or fully independent.


Which nations do you consider to be "fully independent"? It's a quaint concept, a bit like "taking back control", but probably ended around 1870 (which might explains Rees-Mogg's position since his aim is to take the country back to that year).
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:29 am

Olddog wrote:
Dutchy, time to post that Barnier's slide again for aerovega :)

PS never mind I found hundred links:

With a lot of details studied in your own HoL:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201719/ldselect/ldeucom/149/14905.htm

Image


I guess when you commit to free movement between Northern Ireland and RoI in a treaty that you didn't quit, that red line needs to go...

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Thomas
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:32 am

scbriml wrote:
Which nations do you consider to be "fully independent"? It's a quaint concept, a bit like "taking back control", but probably ended around 1870 (which might explains Rees-Mogg's position since his aim is to take the country back to that year).


I wonder when they declare quitting WTO and United Nations, after all all supranational organisations get in the way of being "fully independent".

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:39 am

Olddog wrote:
Dutchy, time to post that Barnier's slide again for aerovega :)

PS never mind I found hundred links:

With a lot of details studied in your own HoL:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201719/ldselect/ldeucom/149/14905.htm

Image


Actually we are not at that stage yet. First, the withdrawal agreement than we have two years to get a trade deal done. Or we will have a no-deal and still have to get a withdrawal agreement done and afterwards a new trade deal. So in the end, a no-deal is just a phase with extra pain for everyone, so why do it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:41 am

tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Which nations do you consider to be "fully independent"? It's a quaint concept, a bit like "taking back control", but probably ended around 1870 (which might explains Rees-Mogg's position since his aim is to take the country back to that year).


I wonder when they declare quitting WTO and United Nations, after all all supranational organisations get in the way of being "fully independent".

best regards
Thomas


Add NATO, talk about independency.............

BTW also a zillion other by lateral deals.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:43 am

seahawk wrote:
Project Fear in full swing again. The UK has the strength and international standing to do without the EU and prosper.


You sound like a Brexiteer.

Just consider that the British Empire doesn't exist in the same form as it did in 1973 (even then it was well on the way towards shrinking to its current state with numerous former colonies having gained independence after World War 2) and we've become very reliant on trade amongst other things with other European nations as part of the EU. Maybe it will prosper, but I'm not convinced that the short-to-medium term will be immediately prosperous, especially as we're still waiting for answers from Brexiteer's as to how fundamental issues will be addressed.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:53 am

zkojq wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
May became PM because she was the last person standing to become Tory party leader after Cameron announced his resignation. The only other candidate in the running towards the end was Andrea “I’ll make a better PM because I’m a mother” Leadsom.

Indeed. Leadsom was leading before that, wasn't she? Again that's on brexiteers that their leadership candidates weak.


I can't remember how highly ranked Leadsom was in opinion polls as it never got to the stage where MP's and members had a chance to vote on it, but your analysis about Brexiteer candidates being weak is spot on.

There was also the high profile decision of Michael Gove to announce he was running for the leadership. In the media's eyes, that was seen as stabbing Boris Johnson in the back having campaigned together on the Vote Leave ticket as he was on the verge of announcing his own leadership bid after years of speculation that his return to Parliament was the first step towards that objective, so it was assumed he would be a close ally in much the same way George Osborne was of David Cameron. An intelligent approach would have seen them all rally around one or two strong candidates, but instead they let the thought of becoming the PM who would lead the UK out of the EU get the better of their egos and all felt they could do it.

That said, if Leadsom hadn't pulled out I bet she still would have lost against May given May's high profile as Home Secretary (and one of the longest-serving ones for that matter) and considering the backlash after her mother quote.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
BTW also a zillion other by lateral deals.


Funny thing.. all those "independent" deal they have need to go too ...

https://icsid.worldbank.org/en/Pages/re ... se.aspx#a3

BITs pretty much invariable limit what a government can and can´t do...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 am

seahawk wrote:
I hope BoJo, asks for an extension but binds it to a demand the EU will not agree to meet. Like: "We are offering to extend the negotiations by 3 months, but only if you remove the backstop from the WA."


Not possible. The law prescribes the letter which BoJo has to write to the EU in which he asks for an extension. He cannot change the wording. In fact, he only has to sign it and send it to the EU, everything else is already done for him.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:37 am

scbriml wrote:
If you insist on referring to those of us who would prefer to remain in the EU as "remoaners", I shall refer to leavers as "Brexitards". Deal?



You must really have a thin skin maybe you need a can of HTFU.

But far from me having to tell you it wouldn’t be the first time you have lowered yourself to that level now would it?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:08 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Project Fear in full swing again. The UK has the strength and international standing to do without the EU and prosper.


You sound like a Brexiteer.

Just consider that the British Empire doesn't exist in the same form as it did in 1973 (even then it was well on the way towards shrinking to its current state with numerous former colonies having gained independence after World War 2) and we've become very reliant on trade amongst other things with other European nations as part of the EU. Maybe it will prosper, but I'm not convinced that the short-to-medium term will be immediately prosperous, especially as we're still waiting for answers from Brexiteer's as to how fundamental issues will be addressed.


There are plenty countries in the world that have a weaker economy and are less developed that survive without being in a trade bloc similar to the EU. So even a UK outside the EU will survive, maybe not as well as a member of the EU but imho that is a much smaller concern than the state of British politics and society at the moment.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am

seahawk wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Project Fear in full swing again. The UK has the strength and international standing to do without the EU and prosper.


You sound like a Brexiteer.

Just consider that the British Empire doesn't exist in the same form as it did in 1973 (even then it was well on the way towards shrinking to its current state with numerous former colonies having gained independence after World War 2) and we've become very reliant on trade amongst other things with other European nations as part of the EU. Maybe it will prosper, but I'm not convinced that the short-to-medium term will be immediately prosperous, especially as we're still waiting for answers from Brexiteer's as to how fundamental issues will be addressed.


There are plenty countries in the world that have a weaker economy and are less developed that survive without being in a trade bloc similar to the EU..


There is one, as in a single one, country that is not party to any FTA.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:

You sound like a Brexiteer.

Just consider that the British Empire doesn't exist in the same form as it did in 1973 (even then it was well on the way towards shrinking to its current state with numerous former colonies having gained independence after World War 2) and we've become very reliant on trade amongst other things with other European nations as part of the EU. Maybe it will prosper, but I'm not convinced that the short-to-medium term will be immediately prosperous, especially as we're still waiting for answers from Brexiteer's as to how fundamental issues will be addressed.


There are plenty countries in the world that have a weaker economy and are less developed that survive without being in a trade bloc similar to the EU..


There is one, as in a single one, country that is not party to any FTA.

best regards
Thomas


I believe the UK will be able to make their own trade deals over time, again most likely to different conditions than what the EU has, but that is imho much less of a problem than the current state of the country.

I find it more worrisome that a Prime minister openly plays with disregarding a direct law by the parliament, large parts of the media supporting a Brexit without any good reason, increasing nationalistic tendencies to support Brexit and absolutely no plan on the direction the country wants to go in the future.

In that state it matters little how the Brexit saga ends.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:59 am

seahawk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

There are plenty countries in the world that have a weaker economy and are less developed that survive without being in a trade bloc similar to the EU..


There is one, as in a single one, country that is not party to any FTA.

best regards
Thomas


I believe the UK will be able to make their own trade deals over time,


yes, they can restrict their universality one trade deal at a time again.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
universality


damn you autocorrect... that was supposed to be sovereignty.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:41 am

zkojq wrote:
par13del wrote:
TM made it worse with a split cabinet, I place all the blame right there, no way can government function on such a major national issue which divided the country with a cabinet by personal consensus, leadership was required.

Sorry but this is straight up BS. TM appointed arch brexiteers including BoJo, Michael Gove and David Davis to the key positions relating to Brexit. The fact that all of them failed completely when it came to deliverables is on brexiteers, not remainers. Expecting TM to appoint the rest of her non Brexit related cabinet positions based on the way people voted on brexit is straight up moronic.

I thought it was BS that TM ensured that Bojo was never around when key decisions were being made but that's just me. Not sure what you think a couple Brexiters in a split cabinet would get passed when over 50% are Remainers, I guess a lot of folks fell for her red lines like they did with the red bus, hhhmmmm both of them were red. Go figure.

However my greater point stands, the TM government did everything they could to remain, so why not have a Remain dominated cabinet to ensure that the leadership of the country during this critical time was united in one voice. I would also call it BS is you believe that the only way the Brexiters or Remainers opinions / interest could be heard or represented was by having a split cabinet.
The UK political class in a good majority disagree with the results of the vote, the country was divided so that any incident involving any immigrant was immediately attributed to racism and Brexit, and during times like that you want a cabinet where every debate is challenged by Brexiters and Remainers with the PM being the decided vote?
Ok....I disagree.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:57 am

The problem is not the composition of the cabinet. The problem is to have people that understands how the EU works, and putting serious work on the UK propositions.

When you go to Brussels just to make a political declaration asking basically to break the SM for the UK, you waste time.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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keesje
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Olddog wrote:
The problem is not the composition of the cabinet. The problem is to have people that understands how the EU works, and putting serious work on the UK propositions.

When you go to Brussels just to make a political declaration asking basically to break the SM for the UK, you waste time.


A bad idea getting implemented while denying self inflicted damage, backward development for the country.

I feel sorry for those (higher educated, youngsters, London area) dragged along

by basically a bunch of outright liars, very moderately informed eldery and opportunistic politicians.

Image
https://news.sky.com/story/one-million- ... m-11673542

Good to see some conservative PM are willing to take some repsonsibility to stop some of the nationalist madness at last. Some conscience left in there..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:39 pm

Olddog wrote:
The problem is not the composition of the cabinet. The problem is to have people that understands how the EU works, and putting serious work on the UK propositions.

When you go to Brussels just to make a political declaration asking basically to break the SM for the UK, you waste time.

As per numerous comments in this thread and earlier versions, the UK has been instrumental in making, proposing and approving a lot of the EU structures, they know exactly how they work and the responses they would receive from the EU, heck even John Q public and A.Net professionals could see the fallacy of the red lines and the expected responses.

My line of thinking is that for such a critical venture, the government needed to work closely with the parliament, and since the majority of the parliament was remain, a remain approach to Brexit would have been more functional versus the adversarial atmosphere that was created, example, imagine the talking points from the chancellor to the financial community, it was out of sync with the supposed red lines and the so called appeasement to the Brexiters.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:35 pm

Maybe the Tories should spend the time they use on thinking how to prevent asking for a delay legally, on how to get a deal which is satisfactory for the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/09/six-ways-boris-johnson-could-evade-block-on-no-deal-brexit
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:40 pm

And now, for more fun to come:

LONDON, Sept 9 (Reuters) - Britain's Queen Elizabeth on Monday gave final approval to a piece of legislation which seeks to prevent Prime Minister Boris Johnson from taking the country out of the European Union without an exit deal on Oct. 31.

The step, known as Royal Assent, is effectively a rubber-stamp from the monarch for the law which passed through parliament last week despite opposition from the government. The Royal Assent was announced in parliament's upper chamber, the House of Lords.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm

LJ wrote:
Maybe the Tories should spend the time they use on thinking how to prevent asking for a delay legally, on how to get a deal which is satisfactory for the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/09/six-ways-boris-johnson-could-evade-block-on-no-deal-brexit

Same applies to the parliament and all those who have been involved with the process since 2016. The UK has not been able to approve any plan for themselves much less present something to the EU....the proper statement is probably a pox on all their houses.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:29 pm

Now the speaker says he will quit and they are speculating it is because of a massive Tory backlash, really? If they had that power they should have done something about him a long time ago, nothing he is doing now is as important or far reaching as what he has already done especially the last two years.
Methinks something else is going on....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... er-31.html

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