A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:24 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Scotland can have another independence referendum if Westminster grants them a Section 30 request for one. Sturgeon did this a year or two back which was quickly rejected by May. I'm still expecting an independence referendum to be the price for SNP support in the event of another hung parliament.

The SNP are undoubtedly keen for another one: partly to avoid losing EU membership status, partly because some of their hard core support are demanding one right now and have done ever since the last time, partly because their 2016 Scottish parliament manifesto says they will seek one if there's a "material change" in circumstances such as Brexit (I suspect this was put in to give them an excuse to call for one if it went that way, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered until they were sure there's enough support to win a second referendum) and partly because independence is their raison d'etre.

I suspect a second referendum without Westminster's approval would simply not be recognised.


That does not diminish the fact that it still has not been resolved if the Scotland has the actual power to to decide for themselves, only the Supreme Court can rule on that one as it’s never been tested.

You also have to remember the power of unlimited parliamentary sovereignty is an English principle not a Scottish one as it has no equivalent in the Scottish Constitution (MacCormick v. Lord Advocate (1953) SC 396 - Court of Session (on appeal) it also comes down to the fact England itself also cannot declare if it also wants to leave the Union as it has no devolved parliment unlike Northern Ireland & Scotland
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:25 pm

8 billion reasons to do or die trying delivering a Crash out....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brex ... e-backers/

Because his and the leave voters may otherwise kill him..... :D

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:29 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Ever heard about WTO? DSB reigns over trade disputes, SPS regulates food, pesticides, etc., TRIPS regulates intellectual property, etc.

Some of the much maligned "EU standards" about bendy bananas and stuff are actually rules transponded from WTO.

Are you going to leave WTO too?


Off course we won’t be leaving the WTO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t decide to do it unilaterally.


So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

If the Sun, etc. catch on some of the wording on those treaties you'll end up shouting what a bad deal for the UK they are and how they need you more than you need them.


I agree that some treaty when moving into a Union such as the European Union or even the United Kingdom may regulate controls but they also have means of leaving the treaty unilaterally

Also I have stated a number of time that being in thecEU has benifits to the UK, but unfortunately the direction the EU is headed I believe is not in the best interests of the UK.
Last edited by A101 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:34 pm

JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:50 pm

AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Joseph Göbbels wrote:


best regards
Thomas


You just confirmed Godwin's law, congratulations.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law




We all know Godwin's law, but as we are at more than 35 K posts on Brexit, your point is.......
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:59 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?



Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:08 pm

A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?



Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.


And neither did BoJo when he infamously stood with a kipper in his hands on stage, publicly claiming EU rules forced them to be send packed on ice, much to the frustration of Isle of Man fishmongers who had complained about the cost of the "Brussels-imposed ice pillow"....

Turned out the red tape on ice pillows are enterly British, not EU at all...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-exposed/
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:15 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Off course we won’t be leaving the WTO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t decide to do it unilaterally.


So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

If the Sun, etc. catch on some of the wording on those treaties you'll end up shouting what a bad deal for the UK they are and how they need you more than you need them.


I agree that some treaty when moving into a Union such as the European Union or even the United Kingdom may regulate controls but they also have means of leaving the treaty unilaterally


And aren't you lot leaving unilaterally?
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:19 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?


The UK will be free to allow chlorinated chicken once out, the only thing to keep in mind is that the border seamlessness will entirely depend on how aligned are rules on both sides of the trade.

The more rules diverge, the harder and more thorough controls will have to be to ensure imported goods are compliant.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:23 pm

And you should do some research on how the chickens and raised and why they have to washed with chlorine. You may realize that the problem is much deeper than the chlorine syndrome.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:30 pm

A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?



Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.

I chose this as in my mind it also highlights additional complexities of the situation. The EU has said washing chicken in chlorine is not healthy so imposed rules and or regulations against it and also banned the import into the EU. The EU also has freedom of movement, so if it allows a member state to wash its chickens in chlorine for domestic consumption only, how do you prevent persons from other members states who are in your country from consuming and or being exposed to such chickens? Certainly one can request different labels be placed on them in the stores, but if you are putting these measures in place for health reasons, why allow exceptions?

I think this is one of the things that highlights how the EU is more than just a trading group and why the 4 pillars were designed the way they are and cannot be broken.
Attempt to apply SM and CU rules to chlorinated chicken in any EU member state and see the difficulty.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:34 pm

Olddog wrote:
And you should do some research on how the chickens and raised and why they have to washed with chlorine. You may realize that the problem is much deeper than the chlorine syndrome.

Fully aware, I used the situation in a two part post to make my final point about all those talking about deals, no deals while not reviewing and or understanding the basic concepts involved, see my last post.

Cheers
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:40 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?



Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.


And neither did BoJo when he infamously stood with a kipper in his hands on stage, publicly claiming EU rules forced them to be send packed on ice, much to the frustration of Isle of Man fishmongers who had complained about the cost of the "Brussels-imposed ice pillow"....

Turned out the red tape on ice pillows are enterly British, not EU at all...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-exposed/



While I can’t proclaim that the government dosnt make mistakes, but fundamentally you are talking about transport of the end product, the context of the discussion is one of standards and that comes under their purview of the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:42 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

No other international treaty demands that a sovereign government hand over regulatory control to another and can only leave that treaty with the consent of the other party, hence the term vassal state and not protectorate.


Ever heard about WTO? DSB reigns over trade disputes, SPS regulates food, pesticides, etc., TRIPS regulates intellectual property, etc.

Some of the much maligned "EU standards" about bendy bananas and stuff are actually rules transponded from WTO.

Are you going to leave WTO too?


Off course we won’t be leaving the WTO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t decide to do it unilaterally.


And yet the WTO is a lot more undemocratic than the EU ever was. See the curious case of what was it, Moldovia blocking UK's wishes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

If the Sun, etc. catch on some of the wording on those treaties you'll end up shouting what a bad deal for the UK they are and how they need you more than you need them.


I agree that some treaty when moving into a Union such as the European Union or even the United Kingdom may regulate controls but they also have means of leaving the treaty unilaterally


And aren't you lot leaving unilaterally?


We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:46 pm

par13del wrote:
The EU has said washing chicken in chlorine is not healthy so imposed rules and or regulations against it and also banned the import into the EU.


As other have meanwhile said: the problem is not so much in the fact that (diluted) chlorine is used (and thus enters into the human food chain), but rather that these chickens need to be washed at all at the end of the production process to make them fit for human consumptionI It indicates to great deficiencies in their production process upstream and which are the main concern.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:57 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Turned out the red tape on ice pillows are enterly British, not the EU at all..

You'll find that to be true with pretty much every brexiteer claim. I've certainly not come across many, if any, that have held true.
It's a movement whose basic premise is based on lies.

Four decades of inept British politicians blaming each other or more usually, the easy EU scapegoat. An apathetic public who care little about domestic politics or understanding its processes, with even less interest of those of Europe as a whole, made it easy for them to do so.

It all leads to the utter drivel we see today. The Mother of all Parliaments will eventually reach a decision. The EU are probably wise enough to give them the time to do it and not become the scapegoat one final time by forcing a choatic exit. Especially as it's likely to be halfway house pointless SM/CU deal which ironically really does hand 'control' over without representation.
Last edited by ChrisKen on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:02 pm

A101 wrote:
We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal

Yet to leave without a deal, leaves the UK in tatters for at least three generations (if we're lucky) according to brexiteers themselves.
I agree a deal is pointless (for very different reasons), which leaves only one sensible option for the UK.
That's the same sensible option that was clear from the start, since we already held everything that brexit claims we'll get back.

#RevokeA50 intention and go on, make the cover blue again (it was and is our decision to make anyway)
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Ever heard about WTO? DSB reigns over trade disputes, SPS regulates food, pesticides, etc., TRIPS regulates intellectual property, etc.

Some of the much maligned "EU standards" about bendy bananas and stuff are actually rules transponded from WTO.

Are you going to leave WTO too?


Off course we won’t be leaving the WTO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t decide to do it unilaterally.





And yet the WTO is a lot more undemocratic than the EU ever was. See the curious case of what was it, Moldovia blocking UK's wishes.



Really and the EU isn’t when the UK used its veto to protect UK interests but the end result was EU bypass Britain and establish a new admendment to establish the euro.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:14 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Off course we won’t be leaving the WTO, but that doesn’t mean you can’t decide to do it unilaterally.





And yet the WTO is a lot more undemocratic than the EU ever was. See the curious case of what was it, Moldovia blocking UK's wishes.



Really and the EU isn’t when the UK used its veto to protect UK interests but the end result was EU bypass Britain and establish a new admendment to establish the euro.


The UK was given another exemption.........

But you are right, the UK was the nee-sayer of the EU. So that attitude will not be missed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:18 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

I agree that some treaty when moving into a Union such as the European Union or even the United Kingdom may regulate controls but they also have means of leaving the treaty unilaterally


And aren't you lot leaving unilaterally?


We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal


The WA is a result of May's red lines and trying to appease everyone at a time. Had the UK made their minds up at the time the EU wouldn't have needed that kind of assurances in written, binding form.

It's also a reminder of what's like to be the junior partner with hazy ideas and conflicting goals on a negotiation with a bigger, more skilled counterpart, who also has a clear objective and a purpose.

Taste the feeling, it won't be the last time.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:37 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal

Yet to leave without a deal, leaves the UK in tatters for at least three generations (if we're lucky) according to brexiteers themselves.
I agree a deal is pointless (for very different reasons), which leaves only one sensible option for the UK.
That's the same sensible option that was clear from the start, since we already held everything that brexit claims we'll get back.

#RevokeA50 intention and go on, make the cover blue again (it was and is our decision to make anyway)



Pure speculation and shows the hysterical nature of the leave camp, a generation is generally perceived to be 30 years so you claim the economy will be in tatters for 90 years. It hasn’t taken 90 years for the Australian/New Zealand economy to recover from the shock of losing the predominant market when UK joined the EEC
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:




And yet the WTO is a lot more undemocratic than the EU ever was. See the curious case of what was it, Moldovia blocking UK's wishes.



Really and the EU isn’t when the UK used its veto to protect UK interests but the end result was EU bypass Britain and establish a new admendment to establish the euro.


The UK was given another exemption.........

But you are right, the UK was the nee-sayer of the EU. So that attitude will not be missed.


It does not overlook the fact that theEU moved against its own rules and made a mockery of holding itself to adheringto its own laws
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:45 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

And aren't you lot leaving unilaterally?


We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal


The WA is a result of May's red lines and trying to appease everyone at a time. Had the UK made their minds up at the time the EU wouldn't have needed that kind of assurances in written, binding form.

It's also a reminder of what's like to be the junior partner with hazy ideas and conflicting goals on a negotiation with a bigger, more skilled counterpart, who also has a clear objective and a purpose.

Taste the feeling, it won't be the last time.



It is a result of the EU not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:57 pm

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal

Yet to leave without a deal, leaves the UK in tatters for at least three generations (if we're lucky) according to brexiteers themselves.
I agree a deal is pointless (for very different reasons), which leaves only one sensible option for the UK.
That's the same sensible option that was clear from the start, since we already held everything that brexit claims we'll get back.

#RevokeA50 intention and go on, make the cover blue again (it was and is our decision to make anyway)



Pure speculation and shows the hysterical nature of the leave camp, a generation is generally perceived to be 30 years so you claim the economy will be in tatters for 90 years. It hasn’t taken 90 years for the Australian/New Zealand economy to recover from the shock of losing the predominant market when UK joined the EEC


a generation is traditionally defined as 20 years, so 60 years and given that Rees-Mogg said 50 years so not so different Australia and New Zealand are litterly a half a world away the EU is on the other side of the canal or on the other side of the land border. Hardly the same.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:58 pm

?
Pretty sure it's the UK demanding access to the Single Market and Customs Union without wanting to abide (red lines) by the basic tenants of them. The EU is sticking to those as they said they would, as they are expected to and as they should.

No cherry picking.

The Brexits you were sold were never on offer. The premises you were sold them on, were lies.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
?
Pretty sure it's the UK demanding access to the Single Market and Customs Union without wanting to abide (red lines) by the basic tenants of them. The EU is sticking to those as they said they would, as they are expected to and as they should.

No cherry picking.

The Brexits you were sold were never on offer. The premises you were sold them on, were lies.


TM tried to negotiate that aspect nothing more nothing less it’s the remain camp who can’t see the distinction between a demand and a negotiation
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:22 pm

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
?
Pretty sure it's the UK demanding access to the Single Market and Customs Union without wanting to abide (red lines) by the basic tenants of them. The EU is sticking to those as they said they would, as they are expected to and as they should.

No cherry picking.

The Brexits you were sold were never on offer. The premises you were sold them on, were lies.


TM tried to negotiate that aspect nothing more nothing less it’s the remain camp who can’t see the distinction between a demand and a negotiation


It doesn't matter who tried to negotiate it, doesnt matter if it's a demand either. You can't have it without the other. This was known from the start and princples of the EU have steadfastly stuck to. As they said they would, as the EU constitution (we helped write) demands they should and as they rightly should.

It's the leave camp who keep on with the deluded belief that those principles would be dropped. It wasn't going to happen, it's written in EU law it can't happen, it hasn't happened and leave still don't ruddy get it.


Based on lies, sold on lies and then the liars attempted to push it through by circumventing democracy (Parliament) once democracy said 'enough'.

From the start. It's been a case of spout lies, stamp their feet, cover their ears, close their eyes and expect others to sort their mess out like a toddler.

We have control, we have sovereignty, we have the benefits, we have representation, we won't get a better deal outwith and no deal will be an unmitigated clusterduck according to its own proponents.
#RevokeA50
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:05 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
It's the leave camp who keep on with the deluded belief that those principles would be dropped. It wasn't going to happen, it's written in EU law it can't happen, it hasn't happened and leave still don't ruddy get it.

I think this why among the Brexiters you are either no deal hard brexit or remain in the EU, because the reality is that those are the only two options available.
SM and CU means in the EU, at least in my book, because they mandate the 4 pillars, recall that not having a couple of the 4 pillars is the primary UK objective and as you state, those are not negotiable.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:59 pm

A101 wrote:
While I can’t proclaim that the government dosnt make mistakes, but fundamentally you are talking about transport of the end product, the context of the discussion is one of standards and that comes under their purview of the EU.


But 'kippergate' is just symptomatic of Brexiteers (incorrectly) blaming the EU for everything they think is wrong.

ChrisKen wrote:
You'll find that to be true with pretty much every brexiteer claim. I've certainly not come across many, if any, that have held true.
It's a movement whose basic premise is based on lies.


:checkmark:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
While I can’t proclaim that the government dosnt make mistakes, but fundamentally you are talking about transport of the end product, the context of the discussion is one of standards and that comes under their purview of the EU.


But 'kippergate' is just symptomatic of Brexiteers (incorrectly) blaming the EU for everything they think is wrong.

No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers,just like the hysteria about yellowhammer it’s a planning document that could be the worst case not that it will end up that way. Because if they went to the trouble of making the document don’t you think they would act on it to mitigate the effect
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:33 am

Yellowhammer will just be one of many planning documents, it's certainly not the worse case scenario, neither does the recently changed subtitle claim it so.
There will be many operations/plans 'prepared' or worked through, all making 'reasonable assumptions', all with varied outcomes (many of which make very uneasy reading). Yellowhammer was the scenario the government was working to and therefore was expecting to be the likely outcome.
The key now is, are they still working to yellowhammer? They refuse to disclose that, I wonder why. One would assume if they've revised their likely outcome the answer will be no. If they are not, you can safely assume the outcome expected is bleaker still. If they still are working to yellowhammer, why not say so? The damaged predicted is apparently perfectly acceptable to the exponents of a no deal, so stand behind them.
You can bet your arse, they'd be shouting from the rooftops if they expected anything better than a clusterduck. Yellowhammer or worse is simply not acceptable to the majority of Britons. The case for a no deal brexit was full of holes to start with, The puppeteers have nothing left but a busted handle.


By default, it's impossible to mitigate for many of the effects of a no deal exit before the event. So to say 'we're fully prepared for a no deal brexit', is yet another lie.
 
Jetty
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
8 billion reasons to do or die trying delivering a Crash out....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brex ... e-backers/

Because his and the leave voters may otherwise kill him..... :D

Stop spreading fake news orchestrated by Remainers. :talktothehand:
https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:13 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

We invoked to leave the EU unilaterally but the WA if signed reduces the UK to a vassal state unless we leave without a deal


The WA is a result of May's red lines and trying to appease everyone at a time. Had the UK made their minds up at the time the EU wouldn't have needed that kind of assurances in written, binding form.

It's also a reminder of what's like to be the junior partner with hazy ideas and conflicting goals on a negotiation with a bigger, more skilled counterpart, who also has a clear objective and a purpose.

Taste the feeling, it won't be the last time.



It is a result of the EU not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU


Your Statement is lacking the link to the ECJ ruling you must be referring to.

Please add a link ao we know what you are talking about.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:32 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

The WA is a result of May's red lines and trying to appease everyone at a time. Had the UK made their minds up at the time the EU wouldn't have needed that kind of assurances in written, binding form.

It's also a reminder of what's like to be the junior partner with hazy ideas and conflicting goals on a negotiation with a bigger, more skilled counterpart, who also has a clear objective and a purpose.

Taste the feeling, it won't be the last time.



It is a result of the EU not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU


Your Statement is lacking the link to the ECJ ruling you must be referring to.

Please add a link ao we know what you are talking about.

Best regards
Thomas


The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.



2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ ... S_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

But if you want a ruling on the revoke case,

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... doclang=en
 
AeroVega
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:35 am

Olddog wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:



best regards
Thomas


You just confirmed Godwin's law, congratulations.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law




We all know Godwin's law, but as we are at more than 35 K posts on Brexit, your point is.......


My point is that using the term "vassal state" is a no-no in this thread, but Nazi comparisons are apparently OK.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:41 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:


It is a result of the EU not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU


Your Statement is lacking the link to the ECJ ruling you must be referring to.

Please add a link ao we know what you are talking about.

Best regards
Thomas


The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.



2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ ... S_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

But if you want a ruling on the revoke case,

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... doclang=en


So you need a hell lot of words to say that the TEU wasn´t violated and you are making stuff up. Again.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:50 am

AeroVega wrote:
Olddog wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

You just confirmed Godwin's law, congratulations.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law




We all know Godwin's law, but as we are at more than 35 K posts on Brexit, your point is.......


My point is that using the term "vassal state" is a no-no in this thread, but Nazi comparisons are apparently OK.


Offense is taken, not given, and if you feel "compared" to a Nazi, instead of realizing that even Nazi´s can make factual statement and hence be quoted from time to time, that burden is entirely on you.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Your Statement is lacking the link to the ECJ ruling you must be referring to.

Please add a link ao we know what you are talking about.

Best regards
Thomas


The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.



2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ ... S_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

But if you want a ruling on the revoke case,

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... doclang=en


So you need a hell lot of words to say that the TEU wasn´t violated and you are making stuff up. Again.

best regards
Thomas



If you think I’m wrong show me where I’m wrong
 
Klaus
Posts: 21295
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:00 am

A101 wrote:
The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.

The framework is already there in the political declaration and the WA does indeed take into account that there will probably be a future trade deal.

All done.

That you desperately imagine that to mean that the WA could only be closed once the future deal was completely done as well is your personal little hobby, but it has no reality in the actual negotiations, not least because that would be obviously self-contradictory.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3320
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:05 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.

The framework is already there in the political declaration and the WA does indeed take into account that there will probably be a future trade deal.

All done.

That you desperately imagine that to mean that the WA could only be closed once the future deal was completely done as well is your personal little hobby, but it has no reality in the actual negotiations, not least because that would be obviously self-contradictory.


He's clutching at three words "taking into account" which have no meaningful legal weight.

I'd like to hear more about actual workable solutions than try to deflect blame.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1728
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:12 am

AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Joseph Göbbels wrote:


You just confirmed Godwin's law, congratulations.


Congratulations, I think you're the hundredth person I've seen invoking Godwin's Law and thinking it's something clever. Thing is... Godwin's Law is about comparing to Nazism where that's irrelevant.

In this case, the comparison between current UK political events and the rise of pre-war German Nazism is completely valid. This is definitely *NOT* the time to trot out Godwin.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:14 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:

The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.



2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/ ... S_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

But if you want a ruling on the revoke case,

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... doclang=en


So you need a hell lot of words to say that the TEU wasn´t violated and you are making stuff up. Again.

best regards
Thomas



If you think I’m wrong show me where I’m wrong


I already did. The TEU was not broken, i don´t know of any case where it was, and since you failed to provide any instance of it, you don´t know either.

Interesting side note, the ruling you did refer to made its decision based on international treaties, written and going into force before todays EU even existed, used to decide what the wording of, essentially, a constitution means. Oh my God, the EU is a vassel state.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
Posts: 4853
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:15 am

A101 wrote:
No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers,just like the hysteria about yellowhammer it’s a planning document that could be the worst case not that it will end up that way. Because if they went to the trouble of making the document don’t you think they would act on it to mitigate the effect


Why did the government its best to avoid publication of Yellowhammer if it's just "a planning document"? Moreover, upon releasing the document, the government would have no problem providing the mitigating actions and the expected remaining consequences. However, I fail to see which mitigating actions have been taking apart from flying in medication (would do great for the cost structure) which actually tackle the problems instead of the symptoms. Not to mention that's it's still very vague on the situation in NI. It does create the idea that the UK isn't as prepared as it should be [for a no deal Brexit] and therefore should welcome any extension of Brexit (despite the fact that it will extend the period of uncertainty).
 
Klaus
Posts: 21295
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:20 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:



You just confirmed Godwin's law, congratulations.


Congratulations, I think you're the hundredth person I've seen invoking Godwin's Law and thinking it's something clever. Thing is... Godwin's Law is about comparing to Nazism where that's irrelevant.

In this case, the comparison between current UK political events and the rise of pre-war German Nazism is completely valid. This is definitely *NOT* the time to trot out Godwin.

Indeed:
• The aggressive nationalism and warlike propaganda,
• the appeals to emotion instead of rational thinking,
• the scapegoating of an "other" for very much self-created problems,
• the consistent lying to prop up that scapegoat and
• the insistent diversion away from the actual issues
• not just by a bunch of politicians, but also with strong participation of large parts of the press controlled by a few Billionaires
– the parallels are striking!
 
A101
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:23 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.

The framework is already there in the political declaration and the WA does indeed take into account that there will probably be a future trade deal.

All done.

That you desperately imagine that to mean that the WA could only be closed once the future deal was completely done as well is your personal little hobby, but it has no reality in the actual negotiations, not least because that would be obviously self-contradictory.



Nope the future relationship is part of the procedure inconducting the withdrawl agreement, the political declaration is just guide for conducting the future relationship.

Procedure

The formal withdrawal process is initiated by a notification from the Member State wishing to withdraw to the European Council, declaring its intention to do so. The timing of this notification is entirely in the hand of the Member State concerned, and informal discussions could take place between it and other Member States and/or EU institutions prior to the notification. The European Council (without the participation of the Member State concerned) then provides guidelines for the negotiations between the EU and the state concerned, with the aim of concluding an agreement setting out concrete withdrawal arrangements. These arrangements should also cover the departing Member State's future relationship with the Union. The Union and the Member State wishing to withdraw have a time-frame of two years to agree on these arrangements. After that, membership ends automatically, unless the European Council and the Member State concerned jointly decide to extend this period (Article 50(3) TEU).
 
A101
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

So you need a hell lot of words to say that the TEU wasn´t violated and you are making stuff up. Again.

best regards
Thomas



If you think I’m wrong show me where I’m wrong


I already did. The TEU was not broken, i don´t know of any case where it was, and since you failed to provide any instance of it, you don´t know either.

Interesting side note, the ruling you did refer to made its decision based on international treaties, written and going into force before todays EU even existed, used to decide what the wording of, essentially, a constitution means. Oh my God, the EU is a vassel state.....

best regards
Thomas

You haven’t done anything yet, least Klaus points to things where he thinks he believes is right
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:32 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:


If you think I’m wrong show me where I’m wrong


I already did. The TEU was not broken, i don´t know of any case where it was, and since you failed to provide any instance of it, you don´t know either.

Interesting side note, the ruling you did refer to made its decision based on international treaties, written and going into force before todays EU even existed, used to decide what the wording of, essentially, a constitution means. Oh my God, the EU is a vassel state.....

best regards
Thomas

You haven’t done anything yet, least Klaus points to things where he thinks he believes is right


I see. You are suffering from a misunderstanding. You have to proof your claims, unless you do i can just dismiss them, not the other way round. And since you didn´t provide any evidence, as usual i might add, you are still on about shifting the burden of proof in just another futile attempt to keep your made up nonsense alive and kicking.

The TEU was not, at any point, broken during Brexit.

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10872
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:34 am

LJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers,just like the hysteria about yellowhammer it’s a planning document that could be the worst case not that it will end up that way. Because if they went to the trouble of making the document don’t you think they would act on it to mitigate the effect


Why did the government its best to avoid publication of Yellowhammer if it's just "a planning document"?


why did they have to rename it, apparently without any change in content, before making it public in any case....

Oh yeah, otherwise their spin turn into dust....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8726
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:46 am

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?


You do not get how the EU works, do you?

Decisions by the EU are decisions by its member states. Not always in 100% agreement, but always backed by a majority of states representing a majority of the population. So if you are in the EU, you have decided that chlorinated chicken is not suitable for consumption in the EU and in your own country. If you are outside the EU you can wash your chicken in whatever you like, just not sell it to the EU.

You post shows the general lack of understanding on how the EU works in the UK and why only the hard Brexit will be good for both sides, as only the hard Brexit gives the UK full control of its affairs.

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.

The framework is already there in the political declaration and the WA does indeed take into account that there will probably be a future trade deal.

All done.

That you desperately imagine that to mean that the WA could only be closed once the future deal was completely done as well is your personal little hobby, but it has no reality in the actual negotiations, not least because that would be obviously self-contradictory.


I think the Eu would gladly sign a trade deal with the UK at the same time as withdrawal agreement, if only the UK would know what it actually wants.The problem is the lack of a realistic proposal by the UK, which so far only wants to have the cake and eat it.
Last edited by seahawk on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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