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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:46 am

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
So can you agree that plenty of international treaties demand handover of regulatory control?

Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?


You do not get how the EU works, do you?

Decisions by the EU are decisions by its member states. Not always in 100% agreement, but always backed by a majority of states representing a majority of the population. So if you are in the EU, you have decided that chlorinated chicken is not suitable for consumption in the EU and in your own country. If you are outside the EU you can wash your chicken in whatever you like, just not sell it to the EU.

You post shows the general lack of understanding on how the EU works in the UK and why only the hard Brexit will be good for both sides, as only the hard Brexit gives the UK full control of its affairs.

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The only ECJ rulings in relation to A50 and Brexit is the right to revoke unilaterally, and as you know A50 states that the Withdrawal Agreement must also take into account the future relationship. And the EU will not discuss the future relationship untill the WA is signed.

The framework is already there in the political declaration and the WA does indeed take into account that there will probably be a future trade deal.

All done.

That you desperately imagine that to mean that the WA could only be closed once the future deal was completely done as well is your personal little hobby, but it has no reality in the actual negotiations, not least because that would be obviously self-contradictory.


I think the Eu would gladly sign a trade deal with the UK at the same time as withdrawal agreement, if only the UK would know what it actually wants.The problem is the lack of a realistic proposal by the UK, which so far only wants to have the cake and eat it.
Last edited by seahawk on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:48 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I already did. The TEU was not broken, i don´t know of any case where it was, and since you failed to provide any instance of it, you don´t know either.

Interesting side note, the ruling you did refer to made its decision based on international treaties, written and going into force before todays EU even existed, used to decide what the wording of, essentially, a constitution means. Oh my God, the EU is a vassel state.....

best regards
Thomas

You haven’t done anything yet, least Klaus points to things where he thinks he believes is right


I see. You are suffering from a misunderstanding. You have to proof your claims, unless you do i can just dismiss them, not the other way round. And since you didn´t provide any evidence, as usual i might add, you are still on about shifting the burden of proof in just another futile attempt to keep your made up nonsense alive and kicking.

The TEU was not, at any point, broken during Brexit.

best regards
Thomas



That actually works both way, in constitutional matters burden of proof is required by both sides by giving an argument on why they believe there position is correct, you have not engaged in that dismissing an argument because you can’t prove your position does not mean I’m wrong
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:06 am

seahawk wrote:
You post shows the general lack of understanding on how the EU works in the UK and why only the hard Brexit will be good for both sides, as only the hard Brexit gives the UK full control of its affairs.


Well, more like "only a hard Brexit gives the UK control to bend to the will of Chlorine washed chicken exporters in order to get a trade deal".

Its not like the UK violently opposed banning chicken for food being raised in an environment that requires a Chlorine solution wash in order to make it safe enough for consumption....

In fact the UK didn´t want chlorinated Chicken anymore than the rest of the EU.......

best regards
thomas
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:08 am

A101 wrote:
No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers


It absolutely is not nonsense, it's more Brextremist lies - blame the EU for everything even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Just one in a very long list of leave lies.

Image
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:27 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
You haven’t done anything yet, least Klaus points to things where he thinks he believes is right


I see. You are suffering from a misunderstanding. You have to proof your claims, unless you do i can just dismiss them, not the other way round. And since you didn´t provide any evidence, as usual i might add, you are still on about shifting the burden of proof in just another futile attempt to keep your made up nonsense alive and kicking.

The TEU was not, at any point, broken during Brexit.

best regards
Thomas



That actually works both way, in constitutional matters burden of proof is required by both sides by giving an argument on why they believe there position is correct, you have not engaged in that dismissing an argument because you can’t prove your position does not mean I’m wrong


IF the TEU had been violated, there would be a ruling saying so. It is not that difficult to grasp that concept. There isn´t even a wiff of any violation of the TEU anywhere, as is clearly evident by the lack of such proceedings, and hence you are not just lacking proof of your claim of fact, you don´t even have any argument to make that it *may* have been violated.. You "argument" is like saying "Proof that there is no God", and hence it is a fallacy.

You claimed as fact that "the EU (is) not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU", which is obviously made up hogwash. The burden of proof is entirely on your side.

Lets get back to Brexiteers giving BoJo tons of money to win their multi-billion bet on a hard Brexit at the expense of the average UK citizen.

tommy1808 wrote:
8 billion reasons to do or die trying delivering a Crash out....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brex ... e-backers/

Because his and the leave voters may otherwise kill him..... :D


best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:38 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers


It absolutely is not nonsense, it's more Brextremist lies - blame the EU for everything even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Just one in a very long list of leave lies.


you forgot the most obvious topic related lie: the Yellowhammer document isn´t a "worst case scenario", it was renamed after being written to match the governments spin.....

It is the "BASE SCENARIO" ......

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:07 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?



Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.


And neither did BoJo when he infamously stood with a kipper in his hands on stage, publicly claiming EU rules forced them to be send packed on ice, much to the frustration of Isle of Man fishmongers who had complained about the cost of the "Brussels-imposed ice pillow"....

Turned out the red tape on ice pillows are enterly British, not EU at all...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-exposed/


And the funny thing about the kipper scene is that the Isle of Man isn't even part of the EU as it's a British Crown Dependency and not part of the UK. Same with the Channel Islands. As someone who was aspiring to become PM at the time and was once Foreign Secretary, Boris really should know better what the relationship is between the Crown Dependencies, the UK and the EU. As Andrew Neil asked him when he tripped him up over GATT 24 (I think) in an interview: "I thought you were a man of detail?"

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Really and the EU isn’t when the UK used its veto to protect UK interests but the end result was EU bypass Britain and establish a new admendment to establish the euro.


The UK was given another exemption.........


Opting out of the euro was one of Gordon Brown's better ideas. Brown set five economic tests to assess the UK's readiness to join the euro and not all of them were passed. I've also never been convinced about the merits of a single currency being used by countries with differing economies and economic and monetary policies and at least with its own currency it can be devalued if needed to get out of an economic crises (e.g. Iceland). The Greek debt crisis is a great example, particularly around 2015 when Greece leaving the eurozone was being actively floated.
Last edited by Boeing74741R on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:08 am

Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.

EU Fears Boris Johnson Will Persuade Hungary to Veto Brexit Delay

The European Union fears Boris Johnson is plotting to persuade Hungary to veto a Brexit delay, in a move that would dramatically raise the risk that Britain will fall out of the European Union without a deal.

Prime Minister Johnson said last week he’d rather be “dead in a ditch” than comply with a vote in Parliament forcing him to ask the EU to postpone Brexit beyond Oct. 31.

But officials at the EU -- which is broadly in favor of an extension if it’s the only way to prevent a no-deal Brexit -- privately voiced fears that one of their own leaders could help Johnson out. If a no-deal divorce is to be avoided, all remaining 27 member states would need to agree with Britain to extend the Brexit negotiating period at an October summit in Brussels.

EU officials privately acknowledge they could do little to stop a rebel leader wielding their veto. They worry that Johnson will try to convince Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who has had his own clashes with Brussels over migration and steps to restrict democracy, to help him out. They think the U.K. sees Orban as an ally who will enjoy the opportunity to stand up against the European establishment.


Link

Kindergarten politics with grown-up consequences.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I see. You are suffering from a misunderstanding. You have to proof your claims, unless you do i can just dismiss them, not the other way round. And since you didn´t provide any evidence, as usual i might add, you are still on about shifting the burden of proof in just another futile attempt to keep your made up nonsense alive and kicking.

The TEU was not, at any point, broken during Brexit.

best regards
Thomas



That actually works both way, in constitutional matters burden of proof is required by both sides by giving an argument on why they believe there position is correct, you have not engaged in that dismissing an argument because you can’t prove your position does not mean I’m wrong


IF the TEU had been violated, there would be a ruling saying so. It is not that difficult to grasp that concept. There isn´t even a wiff of any violation of the TEU anywhere, as is clearly evident by the lack of such proceedings, and hence you are not just lacking proof of your claim of fact, you don´t even have any argument to make that it *may* have been violated.. You "argument" is like saying "Proof that there is no God", and hence it is a fallacy.

You claimed as fact that "the EU (is) not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU", which is obviously made up hogwash. The burden of proof is entirely on your side.

Lets get back to Brexiteers giving BoJo tons of money to win their multi-billion bet on a hard Brexit at the expense of the average UK citizen.

tommy1808 wrote:
8 billion reasons to do or die trying delivering a Crash out....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brex ... e-backers/

Because his and the leave voters may otherwise kill him..... :D


best regards
Thomas



You actully can’t get a ruling on something that has not been signed off, and for your information TM and parliament is under no obligation to sign off the withdrawl agreement without first negotiating the future relationship. Just because TM fell for the bluff does not mean the EU is following its own written procedures which I have shown you. At the end of the day the argument you attempt is that because there is no prior precedent that the position you present is the correct one, which is far from correct.


In actual fact when the Exit Bill was being debated in the House David Jones, Minister of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union at the time,confirmed that:

A single vote will cover both the withdrawal arrangement and the UK’s future relationship with the EU.
The vote will take the form of a motion before both Houses of Parliament.

The vote will take place before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. (It is not clear what this agreement is, but under EU law the European Parliament must authorise both the withdrawal arrangement under Article 50, and any Free Trade Agreement.)

The vote will be either to take the agreement on the table, or to walk away with no agreement at all.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:25 am

tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
No that’s just nonsense and is the perceived bias of most remainers


It absolutely is not nonsense, it's more Brextremist lies - blame the EU for everything even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Just one in a very long list of leave lies.


you forgot the most obvious topic related lie: the Yellowhammer document isn´t a "worst case scenario", it was renamed after being written to match the governments spin.....

It is the "BASE SCENARIO" ......

best regards
Thomas



And you proof of this assertion is what?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.

EU Fears Boris Johnson Will Persuade Hungary to Veto Brexit Delay

The European Union fears Boris Johnson is plotting to persuade Hungary to veto a Brexit delay, in a move that would dramatically raise the risk that Britain will fall out of the European Union without a deal.

Prime Minister Johnson said last week he’d rather be “dead in a ditch” than comply with a vote in Parliament forcing him to ask the EU to postpone Brexit beyond Oct. 31.

But officials at the EU -- which is broadly in favor of an extension if it’s the only way to prevent a no-deal Brexit -- privately voiced fears that one of their own leaders could help Johnson out. If a no-deal divorce is to be avoided, all remaining 27 member states would need to agree with Britain to extend the Brexit negotiating period at an October summit in Brussels.

EU officials privately acknowledge they could do little to stop a rebel leader wielding their veto. They worry that Johnson will try to convince Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who has had his own clashes with Brussels over migration and steps to restrict democracy, to help him out. They think the U.K. sees Orban as an ally who will enjoy the opportunity to stand up against the European establishment.


Link

Kindergarten politics with grown-up consequences.


It’s actually called Diplomacy,
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.


Well, Johnson is adamant he will not ask for an extension. :spin:

Orban will remember on which side his bread is buttered.

A101 wrote:
And you proof of this assertion is what?


Seriously? Do you not follow the news? :rotfl:

You can find any number of sources that confirm the documents leaked to The Sunday Times were originally titled "Planning Assumptions" and "Base Scenario". Just yet another example of Brextremist lies. Gove has lied so many time about Yellowhammer that he's tripped over his own lies.

How can you tell when a Brextremist is lying? Their lips are moving. The Brextremists wouldn't recognise the truth if it slapped them round the face with a chilled kipper.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:09 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:


That actually works both way, in constitutional matters burden of proof is required by both sides by giving an argument on why they believe there position is correct, you have not engaged in that dismissing an argument because you can’t prove your position does not mean I’m wrong


IF the TEU had been violated, there would be a ruling saying so. It is not that difficult to grasp that concept. There isn´t even a wiff of any violation of the TEU anywhere, as is clearly evident by the lack of such proceedings, and hence you are not just lacking proof of your claim of fact, you don´t even have any argument to make that it *may* have been violated.. You "argument" is like saying "Proof that there is no God", and hence it is a fallacy.

You claimed as fact that "the EU (is) not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU", which is obviously made up hogwash. The burden of proof is entirely on your side.

Lets get back to Brexiteers giving BoJo tons of money to win their multi-billion bet on a hard Brexit at the expense of the average UK citizen.

tommy1808 wrote:
8 billion reasons to do or die trying delivering a Crash out....

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brex ... e-backers/

Because his and the leave voters may otherwise kill him..... :D


best regards
Thomas



You actully can’t get a ruling on something that has not been signed off, and for your information TM and parliament is under no obligation to sign off the withdrawl agreement without first negotiating the future relationship. Just because TM fell for the bluff does not mean the EU is following its own written procedures which I have shown you. At the end of the day the argument you attempt is that because there is no prior precedent that the position you present is the correct one, which is far from correct.


In actual fact when the Exit Bill was being debated in the House David Jones, Minister of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union at the time,confirmed that:

A single vote will cover both the withdrawal arrangement and the UK’s future relationship with the EU.
The vote will take the form of a motion before both Houses of Parliament.

The vote will take place before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. (It is not clear what this agreement is, but under EU law the European Parliament must authorise both the withdrawal arrangement under Article 50, and any Free Trade Agreement.)

The vote will be either to take the agreement on the table, or to walk away with no agreement at all.


Let us talk about the concept of sovereignty again, it seems you have a little problem understanding it.

When leaving the EU the UK is free to sign a withdrawal agreement or not. The UK is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. The UK is free to vote on those things in one go or separately.

But the EU is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. And it is free to sign it whenever it sees itself in a position to sign it. The option of a hard Brexit is available to both sides, because both are sovereign.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:13 am

scbriml wrote:
Seriously? Do you not follow the news? :rotfl:

You can find any number of sources that confirm the documents leaked to The Sunday Times were originally titled "Planning Assumptions" and "Base Scenario"..


and i was honestly thinking he was deliberately ignoring the fact as opposed to really being clueless...

Hard to chose one link as there are so many: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22Planning+Assum ... low+hammer

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:34 am

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.


Well, Johnson is adamant he will not ask for an extension. :spin:

Orban will remember on which side his bread is buttered.

A101 wrote:
And you proof of this assertion is what?


Seriously? Do you not follow the news? :rotfl:

You can find any number of sources that confirm the documents leaked to The Sunday Times were originally titled "Planning Assumptions" and "Base Scenario". Just yet another example of Brextremist lies. Gove has lied so many time about Yellowhammer that he's tripped over his own lies.

How can you tell when a Brextremist is lying? Their lips are moving. The Brextremists wouldn't recognise the truth if it slapped them round the face with a chilled kipper.


Remain can’t accept the truth when it’s presented in black and white from there own beloved EU website
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.

EU Fears Boris Johnson Will Persuade Hungary to Veto Brexit Delay

The European Union fears Boris Johnson is plotting to persuade Hungary to veto a Brexit delay, in a move that would dramatically raise the risk that Britain will fall out of the European Union without a deal.

Prime Minister Johnson said last week he’d rather be “dead in a ditch” than comply with a vote in Parliament forcing him to ask the EU to postpone Brexit beyond Oct. 31.

But officials at the EU -- which is broadly in favor of an extension if it’s the only way to prevent a no-deal Brexit -- privately voiced fears that one of their own leaders could help Johnson out. If a no-deal divorce is to be avoided, all remaining 27 member states would need to agree with Britain to extend the Brexit negotiating period at an October summit in Brussels.

EU officials privately acknowledge they could do little to stop a rebel leader wielding their veto. They worry that Johnson will try to convince Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who has had his own clashes with Brussels over migration and steps to restrict democracy, to help him out. They think the U.K. sees Orban as an ally who will enjoy the opportunity to stand up against the European establishment.


Link


Sounds to me as if Orban uses this as bargaining chip towards the other EU26 members. However, I don't think it will be wise unless Orban wants to alienate himself even more. The question then is, how reliable is Orban? Moreover, what does he prefer most, a good relationship with the UK or the EU?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:40 am

seahawk wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

IF the TEU had been violated, there would be a ruling saying so. It is not that difficult to grasp that concept. There isn´t even a wiff of any violation of the TEU anywhere, as is clearly evident by the lack of such proceedings, and hence you are not just lacking proof of your claim of fact, you don´t even have any argument to make that it *may* have been violated.. You "argument" is like saying "Proof that there is no God", and hence it is a fallacy.

You claimed as fact that "the EU (is) not following its own Constitution as laid down by the TEU", which is obviously made up hogwash. The burden of proof is entirely on your side.

Lets get back to Brexiteers giving BoJo tons of money to win their multi-billion bet on a hard Brexit at the expense of the average UK citizen.



best regards
Thomas



You actully can’t get a ruling on something that has not been signed off, and for your information TM and parliament is under no obligation to sign off the withdrawl agreement without first negotiating the future relationship. Just because TM fell for the bluff does not mean the EU is following its own written procedures which I have shown you. At the end of the day the argument you attempt is that because there is no prior precedent that the position you present is the correct one, which is far from correct.


In actual fact when the Exit Bill was being debated in the House David Jones, Minister of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union at the time,confirmed that:

A single vote will cover both the withdrawal arrangement and the UK’s future relationship with the EU.
The vote will take the form of a motion before both Houses of Parliament.

The vote will take place before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. (It is not clear what this agreement is, but under EU law the European Parliament must authorise both the withdrawal arrangement under Article 50, and any Free Trade Agreement.)

The vote will be either to take the agreement on the table, or to walk away with no agreement at all.


Let us talk about the concept of sovereignty again, it seems you have a little problem understanding it.

When leaving the EU the UK is free to sign a withdrawal agreement or not. The UK is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. The UK is free to vote on those things in one go or separately.

But the EU is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. And it is free to sign it whenever it sees itself in a position to sign it. The option of a hard Brexit is available to both sides, because both are sovereign.




Only it was that simple we would have been gone in March
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:49 am

The UK could have left with no deal 3 years ago.....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:32 am

Tugger wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
Like the UK treats Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands and other territories you mean?

I believe anytime a vote of the people in those places has been taken "Remain" has won. So it is their choice.

Tugg


As far as I know they have never been given the option to become part of the UK.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:52 am

Yes, I don't really know why there is such a difference with the way France integrate overseas territories like La Martinique, La Guadeloupe, La Guyanne, Saint Pierre et Miquelon and so on, that are french departments.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:21 am

A101 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
A101 wrote:


You actully can’t get a ruling on something that has not been signed off, and for your information TM and parliament is under no obligation to sign off the withdrawl agreement without first negotiating the future relationship. Just because TM fell for the bluff does not mean the EU is following its own written procedures which I have shown you. At the end of the day the argument you attempt is that because there is no prior precedent that the position you present is the correct one, which is far from correct.


In actual fact when the Exit Bill was being debated in the House David Jones, Minister of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union at the time,confirmed that:

A single vote will cover both the withdrawal arrangement and the UK’s future relationship with the EU.
The vote will take the form of a motion before both Houses of Parliament.

The vote will take place before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. (It is not clear what this agreement is, but under EU law the European Parliament must authorise both the withdrawal arrangement under Article 50, and any Free Trade Agreement.)

The vote will be either to take the agreement on the table, or to walk away with no agreement at all.


Let us talk about the concept of sovereignty again, it seems you have a little problem understanding it.

When leaving the EU the UK is free to sign a withdrawal agreement or not. The UK is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. The UK is free to vote on those things in one go or separately.

But the EU is also free to sign an agreement on the future relationship or not. And it is free to sign it whenever it sees itself in a position to sign it. The option of a hard Brexit is available to both sides, because both are sovereign.




Only it was that simple we would have been gone in March


Tell that your parliament. One vote to leave without a deal is all it takes.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:38 am

Olddog wrote:
Yes, I don't really know why there is such a difference with the way France integrate overseas territories like La Martinique, La Guadeloupe, La Guyanne, Saint Pierre et Miquelon and so on, that are french departments.

I suspect it is because French Colonial realm was never as large as the English, so when being protectionist of their home nation, they had less folks to be concerned about.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:43 am

seahawk wrote:
You do not get how the EU works, do you?

Decisions by the EU are decisions by its member states. Not always in 100% agreement, but always backed by a majority of states representing a majority of the population. So if you are in the EU, you have decided that chlorinated chicken is not suitable for consumption in the EU and in your own country. If you are outside the EU you can wash your chicken in whatever you like, just not sell it to the EU.

You post shows the general lack of understanding on how the EU works in the UK and why only the hard Brexit will be good for both sides, as only the hard Brexit gives the UK full control of its affairs.

See post 561, I guess you missed the second part of my two post example.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:05 pm

par13del wrote:
A101 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Is regulatory control really the correct term to be used, and yes I agree that a lot of persons play foot loose and fancy free on a number of terms because as a discussion forum, we will only debate the ones that mean the most two us.
So let's take the most famous / infamous item on the list, chlorinated chicken. At present, per EU rules, the UK cannot export chicken washed in chlorine to the EU, but can the UK wash any chicken in chlorine say for domestic consumption only?


Interesting I have never thought of it in that way as EU do have regulations on foodhandling and how livrstock is treated before and after slaughter.

I chose this as in my mind it also highlights additional complexities of the situation. The EU has said washing chicken in chlorine is not healthy so imposed rules and or regulations against it and also banned the import into the EU. The EU also has freedom of movement, so if it allows a member state to wash its chickens in chlorine for domestic consumption only, how do you prevent persons from other members states who are in your country from consuming and or being exposed to such chickens? Certainly one can request different labels be placed on them in the stores, but if you are putting these measures in place for health reasons, why allow exceptions?

I think this is one of the things that highlights how the EU is more than just a trading group and why the 4 pillars were designed the way they are and cannot be broken.
Attempt to apply SM and CU rules to chlorinated chicken in any EU member state and see the difficulty.


Well yes the single market is just that, a single market. You can have more stringent rules for your national producers, but not looser rules. French farmers complain a lot that some phytosanitary products are banned here, some practices are banned, etc.

Also, washing chicken in chlorine is not unhealthy. The problem is it leads to the whole production process being unhealthy, because producers rely on the chlorine to save their bacon, which doesn't always work, and leads to death from food poisoning in the US.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:10 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Yes, I don't really know why there is such a difference with the way France integrate overseas territories like La Martinique, La Guadeloupe, La Guyanne, Saint Pierre et Miquelon and so on, that are french departments.

I suspect it is because French Colonial realm was never as large as the English, so when being protectionist of their home nation, they had less folks to be concerned about.


Well the bits we had with plenty of population weren't treated the same at the time, only Algeria was a French department, and still "indigenes" as they were called were not really French citizens.

The end result is pretty much the same, plenty of "colonials" in modern day UK, plenty of them in modern day France too.

But at least if I go live in Martinique or French Polynesia I will feel totally at home.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:14 pm

Visit Mauritius, don't think I have been anywhere where the French and the English past co-exist like that, at least not that I have personally seen.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:39 pm

A101 wrote:
Nope the future relationship is part of the procedure inconducting the withdrawl agreement, the political declaration is just guide for conducting the future relationship.

That is simply not true.

The WA is supposed to take into account where, approximately, the landing zone for future agreements is expected to be, but that is the only thing that can be done there.

What your whole theory completely ignores is that it is inherently impossible to have more than that linked in to the WA because only after the WA has been ratified and actually comes into effect by the UK finally exiting the EU there is even just the legal possibility to even negotiate about any future deal.

So it is legally inherently and completely impossible for the WA to contain any actual parts of a future deal and your entire line of reasoning is completely moot.

Procedure

The formal withdrawal process is initiated by a notification from the Member State wishing to withdraw to the European Council, declaring its intention to do so. The timing of this notification is entirely in the hand of the Member State concerned, and informal discussions could take place between it and other Member States and/or EU institutions prior to the notification. The European Council (without the participation of the Member State concerned) then provides guidelines for the negotiations between the EU and the state concerned, with the aim of concluding an agreement setting out concrete withdrawal arrangements. These arrangements should also cover the departing Member State's future relationship with the Union.


Your uncredited quote is not just wrong, but also inherently impossible!

The Union and the Member State wishing to withdraw have a time-frame of two years to agree on these arrangements. After that, membership ends automatically, unless the European Council and the Member State concerned jointly decide to extend this period (Article 50(3) TEU).

And only then the UK is a Third Country and only in that new legal status of separation the EU can even start talking about a future relationship!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:44 pm

A101 wrote:
In actual fact when the Exit Bill was being debated in the House David Jones, Minister of State in the Department for Exiting the European Union at the time,confirmed that:

A single vote will cover both the withdrawal arrangement and the UK’s future relationship with the EU.
The vote will take the form of a motion before both Houses of Parliament.

The vote will take place before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. (It is not clear what this agreement is, but under EU law the European Parliament must authorise both the withdrawal arrangement under Article 50, and any Free Trade Agreement.)

The vote will be either to take the agreement on the table, or to walk away with no agreement at all.

That would be an utterly stupid idea because that would automatically deadlock any negotiations because it is legally impossible for the EU to negotiate a future relationship deal with a country while that country is still a member of the EU as explained above.

UK politicians may promote such silly ideas until they're blue in the face but the EU won't and can't even go along with such nonsense.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:03 pm

It is well known that the Brexit backers are from the City. And it is well known that some in the City "made" quite a few Pounds on Brexit night. So this comes as no surprise.

BREXIT DISASTER CAPITALISM

£8 Billion Bet on No Deal Crash-Out by Boris Johnson's Leave Backers

While the Prime Minister defies the law and insists Britain will leave the European Union on 31 October, his backers stand to make billions out of the disaster.

Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign backers in the City stand to make billions of pounds from his ‘do or die’ pledge to take Britain out the of the EU by the end of October, Byline Times can reveal.

On the day Johnson was announced as Prime Minister by his party on 23 July, it was reported that “more than half of the donations received by Boris Johnson originated from donors with ties to the City”. However, this newspaper has discovered that this figure is actually much higher – and that many of the hedge funds involved are set to make a killing from his hard-line approach to Brexit.


Link

So a few seem to stand to make a nice bit of money over the misery of many.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:13 pm

Klaus wrote:
That is simply not true.

The WA is supposed to take into account where, approximately, the landing zone for future agreements is expected to be, but that is the only thing that can be done there.

What your whole theory completely ignores is that it is inherently impossible to have more than that linked in to the WA because only after the WA has been ratified and actually comes into effect by the UK finally exiting the EU there is even just the legal possibility to even negotiate about any future deal.

So it is legally inherently and completely impossible for the WA to contain any actual parts of a future deal and your entire line of reasoning is completely moot.




So really by you’re Interepretation if I under stand you correctly would be, once the withdrawl agreement has been concluded after the two years is up and no future relationship has been established then the withdrawing member will automatically be placed on WTO terms as the backstop in the current WA with the UK would be an anomaly as no other member would need this provision unless the negotiations are extended, as no future trade agreement has been negotiated

Klaus wrote:

Your uncredited quote is not just wrong, but also inherently impossible!


So are you saying that the EPRS | European Parliamentary Research Service is wrong and the link was actually provide earlier for tommy 1808
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is well known that the Brexit backers are from the City. And it is well known that some in the City "made" quite a few Pounds on Brexit night. So this comes as no surprise.

BREXIT DISASTER CAPITALISM

£8 Billion Bet on No Deal Crash-Out by Boris Johnson's Leave Backers

While the Prime Minister defies the law and insists Britain will leave the European Union on 31 October, his backers stand to make billions out of the disaster.

Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign backers in the City stand to make billions of pounds from his ‘do or die’ pledge to take Britain out the of the EU by the end of October, Byline Times can reveal.

On the day Johnson was announced as Prime Minister by his party on 23 July, it was reported that “more than half of the donations received by Boris Johnson originated from donors with ties to the City”. However, this newspaper has discovered that this figure is actually much higher – and that many of the hedge funds involved are set to make a killing from his hard-line approach to Brexit.


Link

So a few seem to stand to make a nice bit of money over the misery of many.


Already debunked by Jetty;

https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:54 pm

A101 wrote:
So really by you’re Interepretation if I under stand you correctly would be, once the withdrawl agreement has been concluded after the two years is up and no future relationship has been established then the withdrawing member will automatically be placed on WTO terms as the backstop in the current WA with the UK would be an anomaly as no other member would need this provision unless the negotiations are extended, as no future trade agreement has been negotiated

I have no idea what you're imagining there.

If the WA is ratified the "transition phase" can begin and the Backstop is just irrelevant while that is still running.

The Backstop only becomes relevant after the end of the "transition phase" if the UK chooses to violate its commitments to Northern Ireland.

But why are you assuming that the UK will definitely make such a stupid choice?

Klaus wrote:

Your uncredited quote is not just wrong, but also inherently impossible!


So are you saying that the EPRS | European Parliamentary Research Service is wrong and the link was actually provide earlier for tommy 1808

Inasmuch as you're interpreting it as the WA incorpoating the actual future treaty that interpretation would be completely wrong and impossible.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:55 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Yes, I don't really know why there is such a difference with the way France integrate overseas territories like La Martinique, La Guadeloupe, La Guyanne, Saint Pierre et Miquelon and so on, that are french departments.

I suspect it is because French Colonial realm was never as large as the English, so when being protectionist of their home nation, they had less folks to be concerned about.


The French overseas territories have a combined population of around 2.8 million. Since Hong Kong was handed back to China the population of the British Overseas territories has been pretty small, currently around 265.000. So I'm not so sure that's the reason.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:24 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
So really by you’re Interepretation if I under stand you correctly would be, once the withdrawl agreement has been concluded after the two years is up and no future relationship has been established then the withdrawing member will automatically be placed on WTO terms as the backstop in the current WA with the UK would be an anomaly as no other member would need this provision unless the negotiations are extended, as no future trade agreement has been negotiated

I have no idea what you're imagining there.

If the WA is ratified the "transition phase" can begin and the Backstop is just irrelevant while that is still running.

The Backstop only becomes relevant after the end of the "transition phase" if the UK chooses to violate its commitments to Northern Ireland.

But why are you assuming that the UK will definitely make such a stupid choice?


What we are discussing is the parallel between A50 and the future relationship, the backstop is an anomaly only applicable to the UK as no other member would require it, but as I said earlier, if another member invoke A50 then since no negotiations can take place whilst being a member then automatically after the two year period if no extension is sought then the leaving country has no option to trade on WTO rules because by your reckoning the future relationship cannot be conducted whilst being a member of the EU, the interconnection between the two is synonymous.



Klaus wrote:

Your uncredited quote is not just wrong, but also inherently impossible!

A101 wrote:
So are you saying that the EPRS | European Parliamentary Research Service is wrong and the link was actually provide earlier for tommy 1808


Inasmuch as you're interpreting it as the WA incorpoating the actual future treaty that interpretation would be completely wrong and impossible.


It is {saying} that the procedure during negotiations for the WA and future relationship should be run in parallel and that the WA should not be completed without knowing what the future relation ship will be otherwise the end result is trading on WTO terms at the end of A50 negation period
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:57 am

A101 wrote:
What we are discussing is the parallel between A50 and the future relationship, the backstop is an anomaly only applicable to the UK as no other member would require it, but as I said earlier, if another member invoke A50 then since no negotiations can take place whilst being a member then automatically after the two year period if no extension is sought then the leaving country has no option to trade on WTO rules because by your reckoning the future relationship cannot be conducted whilst being a member of the EU, the interconnection between the two is synonymous.

No, you're confused again.

The whole point of the "transition phase" is supposed to be that the UK has some time to get a new relationship negotiated after it has exited with the WA so when the end of the "transition phase" arrives, the transition is from being a Third Country with a passive, temporarily frozen, membership-like transition status into the newly negotiated permanent status.

And the difference between the UK and a hypothetical other exiting country is just that the WA for such another country would not contain a Backstop because that other country wouldn't have a colonial province effectively shared with a remaining member country the way the UK does.

Klaus wrote:

Your uncredited quote is not just wrong, but also inherently impossible!

A101 wrote:
It is {saying} that the procedure during negotiations for the WA and future relationship should be run in parallel and that the WA should not be completed without knowing what the future relation ship will be otherwise the end result is trading on WTO terms at the end of A50 negation period

That is factually impossible because the European Union simply cannot negotiate that kind of treaty with one of its own member countries.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:39 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is well known that the Brexit backers are from the City. And it is well known that some in the City "made" quite a few Pounds on Brexit night. So this comes as no surprise.

BREXIT DISASTER CAPITALISM

£8 Billion Bet on No Deal Crash-Out by Boris Johnson's Leave Backers

While the Prime Minister defies the law and insists Britain will leave the European Union on 31 October, his backers stand to make billions out of the disaster.

Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign backers in the City stand to make billions of pounds from his ‘do or die’ pledge to take Britain out the of the EU by the end of October, Byline Times can reveal.

On the day Johnson was announced as Prime Minister by his party on 23 July, it was reported that “more than half of the donations received by Boris Johnson originated from donors with ties to the City”. However, this newspaper has discovered that this figure is actually much higher – and that many of the hedge funds involved are set to make a killing from his hard-line approach to Brexit.


Link

So a few seem to stand to make a nice bit of money over the misery of many.


Already debunked by Jetty;

https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/


Ok, we'll see what is going to happen around the Brexit date in the financial markets, who is benefiting and who is not. We know what happened around the referendum.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is well known that the Brexit backers are from the City. And it is well known that some in the City "made" quite a few Pounds on Brexit night. So this comes as no surprise.



Link

So a few seem to stand to make a nice bit of money over the misery of many.


Already debunked by Jetty;

https://fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/


Ok, we'll see what is going to happen around the Brexit date in the financial markets, who is benefiting and who is not. We know what happened around the referendum.


"Debunked" is also a pretty strong word considering the lots of "seems" and "maybe" in it. If one cross checks with other items they don't seem to have any problem calling "debunked" stuff flat out "incorrect", which they didn't do in this case. Inconclusive or unconfirmed perhaps, but debunked is nonsense. Unsurprising.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Ok, we'll see what is going to happen around the Brexit date in the financial markets, who is benefiting and who is not. We know what happened around the referendum.


"Debunked" is also a pretty strong word considering the lots of "seems" and "maybe" in it. If one cross checks with other items they don't seem to have any problem calling "debunked" stuff flat out "incorrect", which they didn't do in this case. Inconclusive or unconfirmed perhaps, but debunked is nonsense. Unsurprising.

Best regards
Thomas


Though "debunked" may be a strong word, there is no evidence that the article is correct as it cannot be replicated. The claim is thus "questionable" at best. Also note that when mentioning "the City" one has to realise that "the City" is more than a few hedge funds. In addition, unless they've a short position in the GBP/EUR, i's very difficult to predict who will gain and who won't at this stage. Those having short positions on the GBP/EUR rate are probably already out of their positions as it won't go much deeper than we already had prior to the extension law was passed. Moreover, the likelyhood of a deal seems to have increased over the previous days (as rumors are spreading that the UK may be willing to put the border in the Irish Sea). Hence the GBP is rising against the EUR the past few days.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:10 am

LJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, we'll see what is going to happen around the Brexit date in the financial markets, who is benefiting and who is not. We know what happened around the referendum.


"Debunked" is also a pretty strong word considering the lots of "seems" and "maybe" in it. If one cross checks with other items they don't seem to have any problem calling "debunked" stuff flat out "incorrect", which they didn't do in this case. Inconclusive or unconfirmed perhaps, but debunked is nonsense. Unsurprising.

Best regards
Thomas


Though "debunked" may be a strong word, there is no evidence that the article is correct as it cannot be replicated. The claim is thus "questionable" at best.


Yup, that was my point. If it had been debunked they would have clearly said so and did use the appropriate language.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:25 am

LJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, we'll see what is going to happen around the Brexit date in the financial markets, who is benefiting and who is not. We know what happened around the referendum.


"Debunked" is also a pretty strong word considering the lots of "seems" and "maybe" in it. If one cross checks with other items they don't seem to have any problem calling "debunked" stuff flat out "incorrect", which they didn't do in this case. Inconclusive or unconfirmed perhaps, but debunked is nonsense. Unsurprising.

Best regards
Thomas


Though "debunked" may be a strong word, there is no evidence that the article is correct as it cannot be replicated. The claim is thus "questionable" at best. Also note that when mentioning "the City" one has to realise that "the City" is more than a few hedge funds. In addition, unless they've a short position in the GBP/EUR, i's very difficult to predict who will gain and who won't at this stage. Those having short positions on the GBP/EUR rate are probably already out of their positions as it won't go much deeper than we already had prior to the extension law was passed. Moreover, the likelyhood of a deal seems to have increased over the previous days (as rumors are spreading that the UK may be willing to put the border in the Irish Sea). Hence the GBP is rising against the EUR the past few days.


Would be interesting if Alexander Boris Johnson agrees to have a border in the Irish sea, would also be ironic, because it goes beyond May's EU agreed to the withdrawal agreement. But at least it would be a workable proposal.

Anyhow, as for the City, we know their morals, or better the lag thereof, so this scheme seems perfectly doable for the city and we know that it has been done at the referendum and we know people behind the Brexit campaign are people from the City and Rees-Mogg and the like are themselves from there. So call me a skeptic, but I think it is true, might be another way, but some in the City will benefit greatly from a hard Brexit even if it is a very bad course for the UK to take.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
Would be interesting if Alexander Boris Johnson agrees to have a border in the Irish sea, would also be ironic, because it goes beyond May's EU agreed to the withdrawal agreement. But at least it would be a workable proposal.


It would be a return to the EU's initial backstop proposal, because remember the UK-wide backstop is actually a compromise because TM said "no British PM could ever accept a border down the Irish Sea and thus a break up of the British internal market"....

BoJo may be ready to do what no other PM would ever have accepted, because he's completely cornered in by Parliament and the only way to stick to his promise to leave end October AND not agree to the current compromise WA at the same time is to go for a full surrender to the EU's original demands and sign the original WA: the EU has said it is ready, and frankly there's not enough time to do anything but sign on the dotted line of either the compromise WA, or the original one… all the rest requires more time and thus another extension.

Oh, the irony!

Anyway, if NI is carved out of the UK's internal market and added to the EU's SM, you can be certain it will lead to decades of constitutional unrest in the UK, notably on the future of NI within the UK as well as that of Scotland who'll want to have the very same rights as the Irish will have, obviously based on the way they've voted in the referendum.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:40 am

Would Parliament accept such a deal?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Would Parliament accept such a deal?


I would think so, if push comes to shove people tend to accept stuff they otherwise wouldn't.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:52 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Would Parliament accept such a deal?


I would think so, if push comes to shove people tend to accept stuff they otherwise wouldn't.

Best regards
Thomas


Perhaps, as we can see, Brexit is opening a can of wurms, best let untouched.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Would Parliament accept such a deal?


I would think so, if push comes to shove people tend to accept stuff they otherwise wouldn't.

Best regards
Thomas


Perhaps, as we can see, Brexit is opening a can of wurms, best let untouched.


One even became prime minister....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:18 pm

The fun part is the future lunch with Junker, like of the UK could get a deal that way.

After almost 50 years in the EU it is stunning that brits do not understand how deals are made, first between civil servants, and only the very last dot on the line by the politicians.

It is also why we all knox when a deal is made way before the actual ratifying.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:26 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
As someone who was aspiring to become PM at the time and was once Foreign Secretary, Boris really should know better what the relationship is between the Crown Dependencies, the UK and the EU.


Yes, I doubt that Johnson knew that

The Isle of Man, by virtue of its unique Customs and Excise Agreement with the United Kingdom and European law, is treated as part of the UK and European Union (EU) for Customs, Excise and Value Added Tax (VAT) purposes.


https://www.gov.im/categories/tax-vat-a ... standards/
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.

EU Fears Boris Johnson Will Persuade Hungary to Veto Brexit Delay

The European Union fears Boris Johnson is plotting to persuade Hungary to veto a Brexit delay, in a move that would dramatically raise the risk that Britain will fall out of the European Union without a deal.

Prime Minister Johnson said last week he’d rather be “dead in a ditch” than comply with a vote in Parliament forcing him to ask the EU to postpone Brexit beyond Oct. 31.

But officials at the EU -- which is broadly in favor of an extension if it’s the only way to prevent a no-deal Brexit -- privately voiced fears that one of their own leaders could help Johnson out. If a no-deal divorce is to be avoided, all remaining 27 member states would need to agree with Britain to extend the Brexit negotiating period at an October summit in Brussels.

EU officials privately acknowledge they could do little to stop a rebel leader wielding their veto. They worry that Johnson will try to convince Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who has had his own clashes with Brussels over migration and steps to restrict democracy, to help him out. They think the U.K. sees Orban as an ally who will enjoy the opportunity to stand up against the European establishment.


Link

Kindergarten politics with grown-up consequences.


If I understand correctly, UK parliament can still Revoke Article 50 or ratify the Withdrawal Agreement if the EU refuses the extension. So a Hungary veto might actually be a good thing, by forcing UK parliament to finally make a decision and stop kicking the can down the road.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9971
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:36 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Seems that a hard Brexit is a step closer, not because of British politics, but because of EU politics.

EU Fears Boris Johnson Will Persuade Hungary to Veto Brexit Delay

The European Union fears Boris Johnson is plotting to persuade Hungary to veto a Brexit delay, in a move that would dramatically raise the risk that Britain will fall out of the European Union without a deal.

Prime Minister Johnson said last week he’d rather be “dead in a ditch” than comply with a vote in Parliament forcing him to ask the EU to postpone Brexit beyond Oct. 31.

But officials at the EU -- which is broadly in favor of an extension if it’s the only way to prevent a no-deal Brexit -- privately voiced fears that one of their own leaders could help Johnson out. If a no-deal divorce is to be avoided, all remaining 27 member states would need to agree with Britain to extend the Brexit negotiating period at an October summit in Brussels.

EU officials privately acknowledge they could do little to stop a rebel leader wielding their veto. They worry that Johnson will try to convince Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who has had his own clashes with Brussels over migration and steps to restrict democracy, to help him out. They think the U.K. sees Orban as an ally who will enjoy the opportunity to stand up against the European establishment.


Link

Kindergarten politics with grown-up consequences.


If I understand correctly, UK parliament can still Revoke Article 50 or ratify the Withdrawal Agreement if the EU refuses the extension. So a Hungary veto might actually be a good thing, by forcing UK parliament to finally make a decision and stop kicking the can down the road.


Yes.

Revoking Article 50 is up to the UK, thus Parliament, the European Court has so decided. The WA is still on the table, so yes, agreeing to that by Parliament will lead to getting out of the EU by 31st of October. The fourth time is a charm? Something like that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
Posts: 4842
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Would Parliament accept such a deal?


Parliament should be acrefull not to accept as it would really bad if they would reject such a deal.

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