A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Mr. Johnson went to Luxembourgh and he got lunch.

The first meeting between Boris Johnson and Jean-Claude Juncker has not produced anything worthwhile. The British Prime Minister did not come up with a solution for the biggest bottleneck for Brexit: the solution for the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Brexit minister Stephen Barclay and brexit negotiator Michel Barnier were also present.

The meeting in a restaurant in the inner city of Luxembourg lasted about two hours.

In 47 days it will be 31 October, the day the United Kingdom leaves the EU.


link

Still no solution from number ten. What does mr. Johnson think, just go to the motion and hope of great "fake" headlines back home?

Anyhow, 47 days till B-day.



Of course there no solution alavalibe because the only other solution is technological, for which the EU has already ruled out, the only other solution is give up NI and no PM will ever suggest that as that would be political suicide, and that is also really the only solution the EU will accept.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:09 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Mr. Johnson went to Luxembourgh and he got lunch.

The first meeting between Boris Johnson and Jean-Claude Juncker has not produced anything worthwhile. The British Prime Minister did not come up with a solution for the biggest bottleneck for Brexit: the solution for the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Brexit minister Stephen Barclay and brexit negotiator Michel Barnier were also present.

The meeting in a restaurant in the inner city of Luxembourg lasted about two hours.

In 47 days it will be 31 October, the day the United Kingdom leaves the EU.


link

Still no solution from number ten. What does mr. Johnson think, just go to the motion and hope of great "fake" headlines back home?

Anyhow, 47 days till B-day.



Of course there no solution alavalibe because the only other solution is technological, for which the EU has already ruled out, the only other solution is give up NI and no PM will ever suggest that as that would be political suicide, and that is also really the only solution the EU will accept.


Genuine question. Can you please clarify the technological solution you are referring to? With hard facts if possible cause even the Norwegian-Swedish border (if you are referring to that) has border controls and checks.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:39 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Mr. Johnson went to Luxembourgh and he got lunch.



link

Still no solution from number ten. What does mr. Johnson think, just go to the motion and hope of great "fake" headlines back home?

Anyhow, 47 days till B-day.



Of course there no solution alavalibe because the only other solution is technological, for which the EU has already ruled out, the only other solution is give up NI and no PM will ever suggest that as that would be political suicide, and that is also really the only solution the EU will accept.


Genuine question. Can you please clarify the technological solution you are referring to? With hard facts if possible cause even the Norwegian-Swedish border (if you are referring to that) has border controls and checks.



A variation of Smart Border 2.0 which involves the close collaboration between customs of both ROI/UK and NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:00 pm

A101 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
A101 wrote:


Of course there no solution alavalibe because the only other solution is technological, for which the EU has already ruled out, the only other solution is give up NI and no PM will ever suggest that as that would be political suicide, and that is also really the only solution the EU will accept.


Genuine question. Can you please clarify the technological solution you are referring to? With hard facts if possible cause even the Norwegian-Swedish border (if you are referring to that) has border controls and checks.



A variation of Smart Border 2.0 which involves the close collaboration between customs of both ROI/UK and NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


And do you have any indication that the things that need to be developed (because it does not exist) will come in a reasonable time (47 days to go) and in cost (UK will be paying I guess, they are leaving and the UK doesn't want to export its problems, right?), and is as good as the current external EU borders and can be done without putting anything up?

If not, it is an unicorn.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:08 pm

par13del wrote:
So all of what has taken place in parliament was all done openly to defy the results of the 2016 vote?


How do you 'defy' a non-binding referendum?
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:27 pm

A101 wrote:
NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


I know you are still dreaming of unicorns but even you can understand that it is a pipe dream. The EFTA states don't have that equivalence so no way for NI or England, it is a huge red line.


And by variation of smart border, you mean imaginary border with some magic. There is ZERO border working like that in the whole word....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:04 pm

Olddog wrote:
A101 wrote:
NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


I know you are still dreaming of unicorns but even you can understand that it is a pipe dream. The EFTA states don't have that equivalence so no way for NI or England, it is a huge red line.


And by variation of smart border, you mean imaginary border with some magic. There is ZERO border working like that in the whole word....



No unicorns, so do you think at the stroke of midnight that the UK will no longer meet the standards for goods entering the ROI?

The actual withdrawal bill makes provisions for the continuation of of EU standards, it’s just that the EU no longer holds jurisdiction over the UK. Not hard to legislate for the NI to remain within the standards of the EU.

As to the physical border question I’ll take the advice of SME’s if they believe it can be done who am I to question it not my area, back in the 60’s when the US had ambitions to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade they said it could not be done, just because there isn’t one operating to that standard now dosnt mean it can’t be done. But as said earlier the EU will not accept it as it doesn’t conform to the ambitions of the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:18 pm

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A101 wrote:
NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


I know you are still dreaming of unicorns but even you can understand that it is a pipe dream. The EFTA states don't have that equivalence so no way for NI or England, it is a huge red line.


And by variation of smart border, you mean imaginary border with some magic. There is ZERO border working like that in the whole word....



No unicorns, so do you think at the stroke of midnight that the UK will no longer meet the standards for goods entering the ROI?

The actual withdrawal bill makes provisions for the continuation of of EU standards, it’s just that the EU no longer holds jurisdiction over the UK. Not hard to legislate for the UK to remain within the standards of the EU.

As to the physical border question I’ll take the advice of SME’s if they believe it can be done who am I to question it not my area, back in the 60’s when the US had ambitions to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade they said it could not be done, just because there isn’t one operating to that standard now dosnt mean it can’t be done. But as said earlier the EU will not accept it as it doesn’t conform to the ambitions of the EU.


Even they said 1,5years right? And that is if everything goes according to plan. And you suggest that the UK keeps his legislation alliened with the EU? What happened to "getting back control"? The argumentation becomes more fluid by the day. :roll:
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:22 pm

Who cares what happens the day after? The deal is for the long term.

The EU will never abide by the NI rules. Or you apply the SM rules or you don t sell in the EU.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:

I know you are still dreaming of unicorns but even you can understand that it is a pipe dream. The EFTA states don't have that equivalence so no way for NI or England, it is a huge red line.


And by variation of smart border, you mean imaginary border with some magic. There is ZERO border working like that in the whole word....



No unicorns, so do you think at the stroke of midnight that the UK will no longer meet the standards for goods entering the ROI?

The actual withdrawal bill makes provisions for the continuation of of EU standards, it’s just that the EU no longer holds jurisdiction over the UK. Not hard to legislate for the UK to remain within the standards of the EU.

As to the physical border question I’ll take the advice of SME’s if they believe it can be done who am I to question it not my area, back in the 60’s when the US had ambitions to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade they said it could not be done, just because there isn’t one operating to that standard now dosnt mean it can’t be done. But as said earlier the EU will not accept it as it doesn’t conform to the ambitions of the EU.


Even they said 1,5years right? And that is if everything goes according to plan. And you suggest that the UK keeps his legislation alliened with the EU? What happened to "getting back control"? The argumentation becomes more fluid by the day. :roll:


Yeah the SME’s said roughly 18mths. AU/NZ are not in a customs union and two sovereign nations and they can have the same standards and trusted trader schemes for imports/exports. It’s not rocket science for the island to remain in standards equivalence.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 pm

A101 wrote:
Yeah the SME’s said roughly 18mths. AU/NZ are not in a customs union and two sovereign nations and they can have the same standards and trusted trader schemes for imports/exports. It’s not rocket science for the island to remain in standards equivalence.


Apparently it is rocket science because it has never been done before. And the central question you leave unanswered: is it as good as a current outside EU border? If not, it is still exporting GB's problems to the EU.

NB New Sealand and Australia have a nice bit of water between them, a lot easier to control than the border between NI and Ireland, so that is not a good example.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:11 pm

Olddog wrote:
Who cares what happens the day after? The deal is for the long term.

The EU will never abide by the NI rules. Or you apply the SM rules or you don t sell in the EU.



If northern Ireland stays in standards equivalence that’s not acceptable to the EU?
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:18 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The libdems have a position fit for a minority party. Give us a majority (3XX MPs) and we'll revoke ! Knowing full well that isn't in the cards, and if somehow it happened, then that would prove there is probably a majority for that position.


Some may call it "fit for a minority party", others might see it as them putting country first. As much as it shouldn't be that way, I can see the next election being a single-issue matter.

Either way, I can see at least a referendum on the subject being the price of Lib Dem support in the event of a hung parliament.


But being for a referendum is much more reasonable a position. I understand that they think Brexit is dumb, I agree with that, but people voted for it in a referendum. Revoking A50 and doing as if the referendum hadn't happened isn't going to work out.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:32 pm

Boris . was boo-ed in Luxembourg and insulted to Luxembourg PM for leaving him to do the joint press conference by himself. In an interview, he said again, lots of movement on a deal and out by 31st of October, deal or no deal. He must be living in a parallel universe. Reality will hit hard in 47 days.

link
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yeah the SME’s said roughly 18mths. AU/NZ are not in a customs union and two sovereign nations and they can have the same standards and trusted trader schemes for imports/exports. It’s not rocket science for the island to remain in standards equivalence.


Apparently it is rocket science because it has never been done before. And the central question you leave unanswered: is it as good as a current outside EU border? If not, it is still exporting GB's problems to the EU.

NB New Sealand and Australia have a nice bit of water between them, a lot easier to control than the border between NI and Ireland, so that is not a good example.



Yes of course it is if NI mirrors EU laws for goods, if the goods crossing the land border are of the same quality what’s the problem?

I seem to remember that there is a natural moat that surrounds Ireland and under CTA ROI have access to all the information on goods entering NI
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:39 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yeah the SME’s said roughly 18mths. AU/NZ are not in a customs union and two sovereign nations and they can have the same standards and trusted trader schemes for imports/exports. It’s not rocket science for the island to remain in standards equivalence.


Apparently it is rocket science because it has never been done before. And the central question you leave unanswered: is it as good as a current outside EU border? If not, it is still exporting GB's problems to the EU.

NB New Sealand and Australia have a nice bit of water between them, a lot easier to control than the border between NI and Ireland, so that is not a good example.



Yes of course it is if NI mirrors EU laws for goods, if the goods crossing the land border are of the same quality what’s the problem?

I seem to remember that there is a natural moat that surrounds Ireland and under CTA have access to all the information on goods entering NI


If that is the case, there will be different rules for NI, so why not leave them in the CU/SM and be done with it. Problem solved UK out by 31st of October. Bye and good luck, let's negotiated the FTA in the two years after that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Apparently it is rocket science because it has never been done before. And the central question you leave unanswered: is it as good as a current outside EU border? If not, it is still exporting GB's problems to the EU.

NB New Sealand and Australia have a nice bit of water between them, a lot easier to control than the border between NI and Ireland, so that is not a good example.



Yes of course it is if NI mirrors EU laws for goods, if the goods crossing the land border are of the same quality what’s the problem?

I seem to remember that there is a natural moat that surrounds Ireland and under CTA have access to all the information on goods entering NI


If that is the case, there will be different rules for NI, so why not leave them in the CU/SM and be done with it. Problem solved UK out by 31st of October. Bye and good luck, let's negotiated the FTA in the two years after that.


It’s for goods only, and leaving NI with the EU is against Acts of the Union 1800 and against the GFA
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
So all of what has taken place in parliament was all done openly to defy the results of the 2016 vote?


How do you 'defy' a non-binding referendum?

As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.
You do of course recall that immediately after the result folks said the same thing that since it was non-binding they could just ignore the result, shocking that no one did including the remain faction who did everything else prior to the filing of article 50.
Maybe if they had gotten the speaker on board at the time they could have prevented the government from filing article 50 based on a non-binding referendum, wonder why no one thought of that, hhmmm...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:24 pm

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
So all of what has taken place in parliament was all done openly to defy the results of the 2016 vote?


How do you 'defy' a non-binding referendum?

As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.
You do of course recall that immediately after the result folks said the same thing that since it was non-binding they could just ignore the result, shocking that no one did including the remain faction who did everything else prior to the filing of article 50.
Maybe if they had gotten the speaker on board at the time they could have prevented the government from filing article 50 based on a non-binding referendum, wonder why no one thought of that, hhmmm...


legally not binding, morally it might be different, but then again, what kind of Brexit is another matter. The same as it is not moral to go against the interest of the people who elected you, so it is a bit more complicated than to take it at face value.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:47 pm

par13del wrote:
As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.


The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.


The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.



In a legal sense you are correct, but Parliament gave credence to that effect when passing both the Article 50 notifications and the EU withdrawl bill 2018.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.


The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.

If the referendum had actually been binding it would have been nullified when substantial violations against the rules were found to have been perpetrated by the Leave campaign.

Only because it was "non-binding" it actually still stands – and is then abused as presumably "binding" by the cherry-picking leavers. Having their cake and still eating it is entirely ingrained in the whole campaign in every way.

Some commitment to "democracy"!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:09 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Yes of course it is if NI mirrors EU laws for goods, if the goods crossing the land border are of the same quality what’s the problem?

I seem to remember that there is a natural moat that surrounds Ireland and under CTA have access to all the information on goods entering NI


If that is the case, there will be different rules for NI, so why not leave them in the CU/SM and be done with it. Problem solved UK out by 31st of October. Bye and good luck, let's negotiated the FTA in the two years after that.


It’s for goods only, and leaving NI with the EU is against Acts of the Union 1800 and against the GFA


You know the terms of keeping the border open, comply with it and it is the key of a withdrawal agreement. So it is in all our interest to have a solution to this. So I do not buy it that your electronic solution is a real solution otherwise the EU would have accepted it a long time ago. Contrary to popular Brexiteers believe, the EU hasn't played hardball, quite the contrary I would say, They have accommodated every UK wimp, they just set one simple guideline: all agreements must be in the framework of the EU and GFA, both of which the UK agreed to, so no surprise there.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

If that is the case, there will be different rules for NI, so why not leave them in the CU/SM and be done with it. Problem solved UK out by 31st of October. Bye and good luck, let's negotiated the FTA in the two years after that.


It’s for goods only, and leaving NI with the EU is against Acts of the Union 1800 and against the GFA


You know the terms of keeping the border open, comply with it and it is the key of a withdrawal agreement. So it is in all our interest to have a solution to this. So I do not buy it that your electronic solution is a real solution otherwise the EU would have accepted it a long time ago. Contrary to popular Brexiteers believe, the EU hasn't played hardball, quite the contrary I would say, They have accommodated every UK wimp, they just set one simple guideline: all agreements must be in the framework of the EU and GFA, both of which the UK agreed to, so no surprise there.



The terms the EU wants cannot be complied with,the current government does not want it nor does Parliament.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:32 am

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.


The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.

The time to play that card is long past, it should have been done prior to the Article 50 letter, now it is like saying DC should not have given the referendum.
However, if we go with the not legally binding mantra, the near future of the UK, the parliament divided, 3 PM's, house suspended, new political parties, all because of a referendum that was not legally binding.
Really can't make this stuff up....
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:48 am

Klaus wrote:
scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.


The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.

If the referendum had actually been binding it would have been nullified when substantial violations against the rules were found to have been perpetrated by the Leave campaign.

Only because it was "non-binding" it actually still stands – and is then abused as presumably "binding" by the cherry-picking leavers. Having their cake and still eating it is entirely ingrained in the whole campaign in every way.

Some commitment to "democracy"!

Which is confusing, I can understand the Tory party and their PM saying they would honor the results, but Labour and all other influential supporters on the Remain side did the same, including in the snap election, maybe if they had chosen that tactic they may have been more successful instead of the current strategy which has divided the parliament that they cannot pass the only deal from the EU, cannot pass any of their own bills, and now have a suspended house.
Hindsight is always 20 / 20, but when the initial proclamations were made of the legal binding status, it was never seriously pushed, would be good to know why.
At least now they have a party who is openly saying Brexit is wrong and if elected they will revoke, whether they can win or not right now is secondary to the fact that they are actually standing up and being counted, the rest are just fighting over the type of Brexit and who lied about what to whom and when and how much.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:57 am

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
scbriml wrote:

The 2016 referendum was not legally binding.

If the referendum had actually been binding it would have been nullified when substantial violations against the rules were found to have been perpetrated by the Leave campaign.

Only because it was "non-binding" it actually still stands – and is then abused as presumably "binding" by the cherry-picking leavers. Having their cake and still eating it is entirely ingrained in the whole campaign in every way.

Some commitment to "democracy"!

Which is confusing, I can understand the Tory party and their PM saying they would honor the results, but Labour and all other influential supporters on the Remain side did the same, including in the snap election, maybe if they had chosen that tactic they may have been more successful instead of the current strategy which has divided the parliament that they cannot pass the only deal from the EU, cannot pass any of their own bills, and now have a suspended house.
Hindsight is always 20 / 20, but when the initial proclamations were made of the legal binding status, it was never seriously pushed, would be good to know why.
At least now they have a party who is openly saying Brexit is wrong and if elected they will revoke, whether they can win or not right now is secondary to the fact that they are actually standing up and being counted, the rest are just fighting over the type of Brexit and who lied about what to whom and when and how much.



Especially when you consider the Libdems really wanted an in/out referenda nearly ten years ago and actually started a petition for it

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... legg-today
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:23 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

It’s for goods only, and leaving NI with the EU is against Acts of the Union 1800 and against the GFA


You know the terms of keeping the border open, comply with it and it is the key of a withdrawal agreement. So it is in all our interest to have a solution to this. So I do not buy it that your electronic solution is a real solution otherwise the EU would have accepted it a long time ago. Contrary to popular Brexiteers believe, the EU hasn't played hardball, quite the contrary I would say, They have accommodated every UK wimp, they just set one simple guideline: all agreements must be in the framework of the EU and GFA, both of which the UK agreed to, so no surprise there.



The terms the EU wants cannot be complied with,the current government does not want it nor does Parliament.


Sadly parliament wants nothing. It is sad how the representatives of the people are betraying the people in such a big way when it comes to delivering a true Brexit.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:10 am

A101 wrote:
The terms the EU wants cannot be complied with,the current government does not want it nor does Parliament.


So hard brexit and problem solved.

You seems to be unable to grasp that simple concept:

The integrity of the SM is an absolute red line

NI will never be allowed to become a loophole.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:29 am

A101 wrote:
Especially when you consider the Libdems really wanted an in/out referenda nearly ten years ago and actually started a petition for it

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... legg-today


A week is a long time in politics, ten years is a lifetime. Or are you saying people can never change their mind?
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Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
They have accommodated every UK wimp, they just set one simple guideline: all agreements must be in the framework of the EU and GFA, both of which the UK agreed to, so no surprise there.


As much as I'm against a no deal Brexit, a Northern Irish court ruled last week that a no deal Brexit wouldn't breach the Good Friday Agreement...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk ... im-no-deal

All eyes on the Supreme Court this week regarding the prorogation.

par13del wrote:
At least now they have a party who is openly saying Brexit is wrong and if elected they will revoke, whether they can win or not right now is secondary to the fact that they are actually standing up and being counted, the rest are just fighting over the type of Brexit and who lied about what to whom and when and how much.


:checkmark:

People always say it's the Tories that are the most divided on Europe, but Labour are just as divided and it's clear for all to see with Jeremy Corbyn's stance being the complete opposite of John McDonnell and Tom Watson as Corbyn wants a different deal (completely vague over it it should be added) whereas McDonnell and Watson want to remain in the EU. Remember, Corbyn was demanding the immediate triggering of Article 50 the morning after the referendum. This is what happens when Labour vote for a leader whose stance on Europe and track record is at odds with the vast majority of his MP's and membership (albeit not necessarily the majority of Labour voters given the amount of Labour seats that voted to leave).
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:09 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
People always say it's the Tories that are the most divided on Europe, but Labour are just as divided and it's clear for all to see with Jeremy Corbyn's stance being the complete opposite of John McDonnell and Tom Watson as Corbyn wants a different deal (completely vague over it it should be added) whereas McDonnell and Watson want to remain in the EU. Remember, Corbyn was demanding the immediate triggering of Article 50 the morning after the referendum. This is what happens when Labour vote for a leader whose stance on Europe and track record is at odds with the vast majority of his MP's and membership (albeit not necessarily the majority of Labour voters given the amount of Labour seats that voted to leave).


With the notable exception (now) of the LibDems, the Brexit issue has split all political parties simply because it's beyond a party issue. IMHO, Labour has hidden its divisions far better than the Tories, but as things come to a head, the divisions now appear to be as wide as in the Tories. To hear Len McCluskey slagging off Tom Watson you'd think they were supporting different parties.

I cannot see Labour getting elected while Jeremy "won't make up his mind" Corbyn is leader and trying to be all things to everyone while having no apparent view or opinion on any issue. It's crazy. Labour should be so far ahead in the polls that the Tories would never consider calling an election.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:55 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They have accommodated every UK wimp, they just set one simple guideline: all agreements must be in the framework of the EU and GFA, both of which the UK agreed to, so no surprise there.


As much as I'm against a no deal Brexit, a Northern Irish court ruled last week that a no deal Brexit wouldn't breach the Good Friday Agreement...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk ... im-no-deal

All eyes on the Supreme Court this week regarding the prorogation.


Interesting, if that is the case, I am sure the EU will leave it at that, if the Irish government is ok with putting up with a hard border in case of a hard Brexit and the UK government is prepared to deal with the fall out of their decision to have a hard Brexit. This is, however, a Northern Irish Court, so there might be other interpretations to this by an Irish Court and the Irish government is the one pushing for including the back-stop in the WA.

As far as I can see, the EU has this point because the Irish government wants this and the EU is working for its members, not the other way around. The Spanish didn't make a real point of Gibraltar, so that issue was kept out of any WA.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:03 am

I would say the ruling says, that this can not be decided until the final outcome is known and that it is the role of politics to define the final outcome.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:43 am

We should have known the Brits believe in unicorns, the writing was on the wall:

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:15 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Especially when you consider the Libdems really wanted an in/out referenda nearly ten years ago and actually started a petition for it

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2 ... legg-today


A week is a long time in politics, ten years is a lifetime. Or are you saying people can never change their mind?

Looking back over the long haul, I think it is more about how the UK politicians have used the EU to cover for their ineptitude or just plain don't care attitude about the mass of the population, probably the reason why a public vote was never offered before and when they did give one, they chose NOT TO have a binding referendum, better safe than sorry when you know that you have created divisions within your population. Beyond the fact that they goaded the PM to run around to the EU trying to get concessions that they knew were impossible since as most rightly say, they helped in crafting / drafting a lot of the rules / regs / treaties, they literally backed him into a corner where he had to offer the referendum. Even so, I honestly believe they were shocked that they lost, indeed in the last few weeks of the campaign when leave started gaining support virtual panic set in.
If all of this is because the parliamentarians wanted to play politics with DC, good luck, they fooled the people twice, once at the referendum which they never intended to honor, and again at the GE when they made the same claim.
In the next GE either the population will be fed up and the turnout will be the lowest in history or it will be a repeat of the numbers in 2016 with house cleaning on the agenda.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:25 am

After all this drama, the only option for a voter to force politicians to respect the voters wishes, is to vote for the hardest possible Brexit and force the politicians to deliver.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We should have known the Brits believe in unicorns, the writing was on the wall:


Yes, don't tell the Brextremists, but we already had unicorns while in the EU! :wink2:
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WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Turkey is indeed the largest country who attempts to join (although that has been the status quo for the last, what, 35years or so). Ukraine is said to wanne join, but that has been explicitly ruled out for the near and mid-term.


After the conservative EU "Leitkuturler" pi*ed on them back when they really made an effort to conform
Turkey is past that "join the EU" fad.
see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c6d5/c ... f9bfc8.pdf

Actually and IMHO the whole "Hail Islam" move from Turkeys side is a result from that turn down.
New friends, new fashions and going with the Joneses ( religious exceptionality driven Like SA, Israel, ..).
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Turkey is indeed the largest country who attempts to join (although that has been the status quo for the last, what, 35years or so). Ukraine is said to wanne join, but that has been explicitly ruled out for the near and mid-term.


After the conservative EU "Leitkuturler" pi*ed on them back when they really made an effort to conform
Turkey is past that "join the EU" fad.
see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c6d5/c ... f9bfc8.pdf

Actually and IMHO the whole "Hail Islam" move from Turkeys side is a result from that turn down.
New friends, new fashions and going with the Joneses ( religious exceptionality driven Like SA, Israel, ..).


not sure what you are saying with your rant. But if it relieves your underbally, then it has some perpuse I guess.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:22 pm

A101 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
A101 wrote:


Of course there no solution alavalibe because the only other solution is technological, for which the EU has already ruled out, the only other solution is give up NI and no PM will ever suggest that as that would be political suicide, and that is also really the only solution the EU will accept.


Genuine question. Can you please clarify the technological solution you are referring to? With hard facts if possible cause even the Norwegian-Swedish border (if you are referring to that) has border controls and checks.



A variation of Smart Border 2.0 which involves the close collaboration between customs of both ROI/UK and NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


Sorry about the question but cause I am a bit thick (and busy today). Can you please elaborate on exact solutions for specific problems (ex. quality control, smuggling, paperwork, spot-checks, policing etc)?

Not really too bothered about Brexit tbh but I am rather tired listening to one liners and generic solutions and noone getting into real details so I am looking for some more detailed/specific documents or solution to the NI border issue.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:21 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
People always say it's the Tories that are the most divided on Europe, but Labour are just as divided

Maybe, but the other way around: Only the party leader, some of the functionaries and a minority of members and supporters support Brexit while most are on the Remain side.

In the Tories, Remain has now become a minority position with shrinking support (not least because of forcible expulsions) and most of the leadership, most of the membership and most of the supporters support Brexit – and a hard Brexit in most cases.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:29 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
As much as I'm against a no deal Brexit, a Northern Irish court ruled last week that a no deal Brexit wouldn't breach the Good Friday Agreement...

Maybe not the letter of the agreement, but very certainly its spirit and its foundations.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Turkey is indeed the largest country who attempts to join (although that has been the status quo for the last, what, 35years or so). Ukraine is said to wanne join, but that has been explicitly ruled out for the near and mid-term.


After the conservative EU "Leitkuturler" pi*ed on them back when they really made an effort to conform
Turkey is past that "join the EU" fad.
see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c6d5/c ... f9bfc8.pdf

Actually and IMHO the whole "Hail Islam" move from Turkeys side is a result from that turn down.
New friends, new fashions and going with the Joneses ( religious exceptionality driven Like SA, Israel, ..).


not sure what you are saying with your rant. But if it relieves your underbally, then it has some perpuse I guess.


I interpret it as: Turkey did their best to conform to the all the conditions to enter the EU, but after constantly being told they weren't good enough they turned their back on the EU and became more insular and radicalised instead.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
People always say it's the Tories that are the most divided on Europe, but Labour are just as divided and it's clear for all to see with Jeremy Corbyn's stance being the complete opposite of John McDonnell and Tom Watson as Corbyn wants a different deal (completely vague over it it should be added) whereas McDonnell and Watson want to remain in the EU.


Seems like Labour is finally making up its mind about what it's position is, with Corbyn announcing today Labour now officially backs a second referendum, with REMAIN as an option; the other option would be a CU + SM relationship that is to be negotiated with the EU first.

Corbyn would remain neutral and not campaign either way, thus being able to carry out whatever the people voted for.

If the PM fails to come to a better deal with the EU next month and with the risk of a no deal running very high as the EU is not inclined on granting another extension to the UK just for the sake of it, Parliament may decide to vote BoJo out of power and back a caretaking PM in order to secure the extension nevertheless... with this policy, a majority of MPs may feel he's a safer bet than BoJo to get the exension they desire.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:29 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I interpret it as: Turkey did their best to conform to the all the conditions to enter the EU, but after constantly being told they weren't good enough they turned their back on the EU and became more insular and radicalised instead.


If your interpretation is correct, then it is not an accurate view of what happened. The EU was (might still be) paying quite a few Euro's for Turkey to conform to EU standards. And nowadays they are indeed farther away from joining - if they even want to anymore - then in the past 20 years.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:57 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
A101 wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:

Genuine question. Can you please clarify the technological solution you are referring to? With hard facts if possible cause even the Norwegian-Swedish border (if you are referring to that) has border controls and checks.



A variation of Smart Border 2.0 which involves the close collaboration between customs of both ROI/UK and NI by law standards equivalence with consent from the NI Assembly.


Sorry about the question but cause I am a bit thick (and busy today). Can you please elaborate on exact solutions for specific problems (ex. quality control, smuggling, paperwork, spot-checks, policing etc)?

Not really too bothered about Brexit tbh but I am rather tired listening to one liners and generic solutions and noone getting into real details so I am looking for some more detailed/specific documents or solution to the NI border issue.



Sorry mate I’m not an SME never been involved in the industry, I can only give an overview of practice, but what is known is whether you are a primary producer within the EU or third nation all have to work to EU regulations. The primary sticking point from an EU point of view is that they want to protect the SM which is fair enough, the EU are looking at it from a point of view if the UK should ever decide to change its standards from those of the EU which will most likely produce goods at a cheaper cost than those within the EU and use the border to smuggle non standard good into the ROI which would effect production within ROI. I can actully see the point but due to the unique circumstances of the Irish border and GFA they would like to continue to be frictionless.

At this stage within the EU withdrawl bill 2018 it has made provisions which will move existing EU legislation into domestic legislation so in effect nothing actually changes except for we are no longer under ECJ and full sovereignty returns to the UK. The point of view from Theresa May was that she had taken the view that if the UK takes a different regulatory difference as long as the product meets the standards of the UK when it crosses the border what’s the difference as the products still meets the quality standards of the EU. There is nothing wrong with NI regulations mirroring EU standards regulations and still remain in UK regulatory control.

https://www.ausmeat.com.au/services/lis ... ock/eucas/

https://brexitcentral.com/numerous-chec ... st-brexit/

http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/consume ... fault.aspx
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:28 am

Klaus wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
As much as I'm against a no deal Brexit, a Northern Irish court ruled last week that a no deal Brexit wouldn't breach the Good Friday Agreement...

Maybe not the letter of the agreement, but very certainly its spirit and its foundations.



The exact reply I was expecting after all this time when no one could point to where the UK had broken the GFA :old:
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:32 am

But it is a fallacy.

The whole point of changing the way of making some goods or services is to make it cheaper than the EU.

I think I remember the EU producing a report of some industry (chemicals I guess) that will give an advantage in billions if the same safety rules are not applied. one can understand thet the EU will fight against theses.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:03 am

Olddog wrote:
But it is a fallacy.

The whole point of changing the way of making some goods or services is to make it cheaper than the EU.

I think I remember the EU producing a report of some industry (chemicals I guess) that will give an advantage in billions if the same safety rules are not applied. one can understand thet the EU will fight against theses.


When they talk about cheaper it will be on economy of scale, I read somewhere the EU stipulated the amount of cattle for a given area only stands to reason if you can put more on that same area the cost per head comes down

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