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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I interpret it as: Turkey did their best to conform to the all the conditions to enter the EU, but after constantly being told they weren't good enough they turned their back on the EU and became more insular and radicalised instead.


If your interpretation is correct, then it is not an accurate view of what happened. The EU was (might still be) paying quite a few Euro's for Turkey to conform to EU standards. And nowadays they are indeed farther away from joining - if they even want to anymore - then in the past 20 years.

It may derail this thread, but my memory of events is that Turkey's history in relation to deeds done in the past ( long distance past ) and acknowledgement of their role were the largest obstacle, as those who opposed their membership on those grounds were loud and in some ways influential.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:44 am

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
But it is a fallacy.

The whole point of changing the way of making some goods or services is to make it cheaper than the EU.

I think I remember the EU producing a report of some industry (chemicals I guess) that will give an advantage in billions if the same safety rules are not applied. one can understand thet the EU will fight against theses.


When they talk about cheaper it will be on economy of scale, I read somewhere the EU stipulated the amount of cattle for a given area only stands to reason if you can put more on that same area the cost per head comes down


The EU creates more rules, but the most efficient way for a booming economy is no rules. Once the UK can scrap all those pointless rules set up by the EU, the economy will take-off. Let the industry decide what is best for them.
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:40 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:

After the conservative EU "Leitkuturler" pi*ed on them back when they really made an effort to conform
Turkey is past that "join the EU" fad.
see: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c6d5/c ... f9bfc8.pdf

Actually and IMHO the whole "Hail Islam" move from Turkeys side is a result from that turn down.
New friends, new fashions and going with the Joneses ( religious exceptionality driven Like SA, Israel, ..).


not sure what you are saying with your rant. But if it relieves your underbally, then it has some perpuse I guess.


I interpret it as: Turkey did their best to conform to the all the conditions to enter the EU, but after constantly being told they weren't good enough they turned their back on the EU and became more insular and radicalised instead.


<check> Thanks translating for Dutchy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:50 am

A101 wrote:
When they talk about cheaper it will be on economy of scale, I read somewhere the EU stipulated the amount of cattle for a given area only stands to reason if you can put more on that same area the cost per head comes down


More about the workplace, environment, how you handle your production wastes ( clean it first or directly down the drain )
There are copouts: export plastic waste to 3rd world countries where it just festers, saturate the same places in
chicken meat leftovers killing any viable local production ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:57 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Seems like Labour is finally making up its mind about what it's position is, with Corbyn announcing today Labour now officially backs a second referendum, with REMAIN as an option; the other option would be a CU + SM relationship that is to be negotiated with the EU first.

Corbyn would remain neutral and not campaign either way, thus being able to carry out whatever the people voted for.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49735938

The biggest unknown in Corbyn's plan is that it could take several months between negotiations starting and the vote actually happening, which means more months of uncertainty and some businesses voting with their feet rather than wait and see like what some of them have been doing (e.g. PSA's decision to build the new Vauxhall/Opel Astra at Ellesmere Port is still conditional upon what Brexit will look like and at some point they will have to make a go/no-go decision on whether Ellesmere Port gets the Astra gig or not).

Personally, if there is going to be a second referendum, I would rather they just put Theresa May's withdrawal agreement to the vote alongside remain. It's as close to a true Brexit that some desire that's feasibly achievable and provides safeguards a hard no deal Brexit doesn't. I'm also not convinced that a Labour deal to involve the Customs Union and Single Market offers the same benefits as EU membership does at present. I still agree with Tom Watson that a second referendum should be a priority over a general election, but recent events in Parliament combined with the current arithmetic makes it impossible for Boris or whoever is in charge to limp on until 2022.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:45 am

WIederling wrote:
A101 wrote:
When they talk about cheaper it will be on economy of scale, I read somewhere the EU stipulated the amount of cattle for a given area only stands to reason if you can put more on that same area the cost per head comes down


More about the workplace, environment, how you handle your production wastes ( clean it first or directly down the drain )
There are copouts: export plastic waste to 3rd world countries where it just festers, saturate the same places in
chicken meat leftovers killing any viable local production ...


Not 100% sure if you are trying to say that the UK can’t legislate environmental policy to that of the EU or the that there are no unscrupulous business within the EU that don’t try to take advantage of making an extra € by bypassing environmental laws of its the only way that the UK can decrease cost to make goods more competitive than the EU :whistleblower:
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:04 am

Boeing74741R wrote:

Personally, if there is going to be a second referendum, I would rather they just put Theresa May's withdrawal agreement to the vote alongside remain. It's as close to a true Brexit that some desire that's feasibly achievable and provides safeguards a hard no deal Brexit doesn't.




Umm what exit deal?

The only thing the WA basically agreed on was the divorce payments possabliy signing up to join the EU Army and getting stuck in the EU make full membership payments all the while not have a free trade agreement without letting the EU make a vassal state out of Northern Ireland.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:52 am

The WA agreement is dead and rightfully so after being rejected repeatedly. It is unacceptable to the UK and does not deliver a true Brexit, so the choice should be.

1. true hard real Brexit
2. Remain
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 am

A101 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
A101 wrote:
When they talk about cheaper it will be on economy of scale, I read somewhere the EU stipulated the amount of cattle for a given area only stands to reason if you can put more on that same area the cost per head comes down


More about the workplace, environment, how you handle your production wastes ( clean it first or directly down the drain )
There are copouts: export plastic waste to 3rd world countries where it just festers, saturate the same places in
chicken meat leftovers killing any viable local production ...


Not 100% sure if you are trying to say that the UK can’t legislate environmental policy to that of the EU or the that there are no unscrupulous business within the EU that don’t try to take advantage of making an extra € by bypassing environmental laws of its the only way that the UK can decrease cost to make goods more competitive than the EU :whistleblower:


It's exactly that. Trust.

EU trusts the UK while it's under EU rules. If/when UK rules differ from EU rules there will need to be mechanisms to ensure UK products meet or exceed EU rules.

Ever tried to ship food items to the US? On paper it's two Western economies with similar workplace, environmental, etc. concerns. In the real world the US takes great pains to ensure your products are compliant and certified (and leaves you with high compliance costs).
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 am

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

More about the workplace, environment, how you handle your production wastes ( clean it first or directly down the drain )
There are copouts: export plastic waste to 3rd world countries where it just festers, saturate the same places in
chicken meat leftovers killing any viable local production ...


Not 100% sure if you are trying to say that the UK can’t legislate environmental policy to that of the EU or the that there are no unscrupulous business within the EU that don’t try to take advantage of making an extra € by bypassing environmental laws of its the only way that the UK can decrease cost to make goods more competitive than the EU :whistleblower:


It's exactly that. Trust.

EU trusts the UK while it's under EU rules. If/when UK rules differ from EU rules there will need to be mechanisms to ensure UK products meet or exceed EU rules.

Ever tried to ship food items to the US? On paper it's two Western economies with similar workplace, environmental, etc. concerns. In the real world the US takes great pains to ensure your products are compliant and certified (and leaves you with high compliance costs).



What makes the UK any different from importing from any third nation importing to the EU now?

Are the Americans/Australians/Kiwis/Singaporeans/Israeli’s etc more trustworthy than those from the UK
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:13 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU creates more rules, but the most efficient way for a booming economy is no rules. Once the UK can scrap all those pointless rules set up by the EU, the economy will take-off. Let the industry decide what is best for them.


Whatever you've been smoking... I want some of your stuff. :fluffy:

Trade crucially depends on rules, standards and whatnot.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:20 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU creates more rules, but the most efficient way for a booming economy is no rules. Once the UK can scrap all those pointless rules set up by the EU, the economy will take-off. Let the industry decide what is best for them.


If you truly believe that then welcome to an utterly stagnant world where your entire life is controlled by one megacorp - e.g. Google. There won't be a booming economy because there won't be "an economy".
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:33 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Not 100% sure if you are trying to say that the UK can’t legislate environmental policy to that of the EU or the that there are no unscrupulous business within the EU that don’t try to take advantage of making an extra € by bypassing environmental laws of its the only way that the UK can decrease cost to make goods more competitive than the EU :whistleblower:


It's exactly that. Trust.

EU trusts the UK while it's under EU rules. If/when UK rules differ from EU rules there will need to be mechanisms to ensure UK products meet or exceed EU rules.

Ever tried to ship food items to the US? On paper it's two Western economies with similar workplace, environmental, etc. concerns. In the real world the US takes great pains to ensure your products are compliant and certified (and leaves you with high compliance costs).



What makes the UK any different from importing from any third nation importing to the EU now?

Are the Americans/Australians/Kiwis/Singaporeans/Israeli’s etc more trustworthy than those from the UK


Those goods are checked and certified, exactly as it will happen for UK goods.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:34 am

A101 wrote:
Umm what exit deal?

The only thing the WA basically agreed on was the divorce payments possabliy signing up to join the EU Army and getting stuck in the EU make full membership payments all the while not have a free trade agreement without letting the EU make a vassal state out of Northern Ireland.


Divorce payments which will be the cost of any sort of deal with the EU either now or in the future, whether Brexiteer's like it not. It also provided for a transition period which would be better than the disorder of a no deal Brexit.

seahawk wrote:
The WA agreement is dead and rightfully so after being rejected repeatedly. It is unacceptable to the UK and does not deliver a true Brexit <rest snipped<


1. It was rejected by MP's - whether it was down to get one over Theresa May or genuine concern for Northern Ireland or failing ot understand the purpose of items such as the backstop you would have to ask them
2. As it's not been put to a public vote, we may never know whether it was acceptable to the population or not (as someone who wants to remain, nothing other than a revocation of Article 50 and remaining in the EU will be considered acceptable in my book; but it's the Brexiteer's within Parliament that are shouting the most over this being unacceptable)
3. Define "true Brexit" and then ask yourself why the last 3 and a bit years have been a shambles because nobody has been able to agree upon a type of Brexit
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:40 am

That is what I am wondering myself. Brexit should be very easy. No deal, no more money for Brussels, complete control for the UK.
 
kaitak
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Oh yes, it's very easy tp go for a no deal - much simpler, as long as you have absolutely no concern for those parts of the UK (and their populations) which will be worst hit, the young people whose futures will be undermined because they lose the ability to work in the EU ... and as Ireland's PM pointed out when meeting BoJo recently, no deal won't mean no further negotiations or talks between the UK and the EU. Better to reach a deal now and at least protect the economy from freefall. Why endure - or impose on its population the consequences of a no-deal - when it's avoidable? I still find it hard to believe that any government would voluntarily impose such an act (and its consequences) on its population.

My person belief is that the EU and UK will be negotiating up to the last minute, that they'll find an accommodation and this will be put to parliament, which will agree, because the alternative would be no-deal. That will include a "border" up the Irish Sea and the DUP will probably bellyache (and vote against it), but most parties will accept. Worst case scenario, there will be an election based on this, probably even a second referendum, but ultimately it will be agreed.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
Ever tried to ship food items to the US? On paper it's two Western economies with similar workplace, environmental, etc. concerns. In the real world the US takes great pains to ensure your products are compliant and certified (and leaves you with high compliance costs).


The salmonella outbreaks in the US are caused by homegrown stuff, right?
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:35 pm

seahawk wrote:
That is what I am wondering myself. Brexit should be very easy. No deal, no more money for Brussels, complete control for the UK.


Naive to no end.

Even the dyed in the wool "official" Brexetiers have long retreated from that promise.
A lie from the get go of "Schlaraffia achieved for the UK via Brexit".
Murphy is an optimist
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:53 pm

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
So all of what has taken place in parliament was all done openly to defy the results of the 2016 vote?


How do you 'defy' a non-binding referendum?

As far as I know it was binding because the PM at the time one DC said that he would implement the result, he made it binding, he even resigned, go figure.
You do of course recall that immediately after the result folks said the same thing that since it was non-binding they could just ignore the result, shocking that no one did including the remain faction who did everything else prior to the filing of article 50.
Maybe if they had gotten the speaker on board at the time they could have prevented the government from filing article 50 based on a non-binding referendum, wonder why no one thought of that, hhmmm...

It wasnt binding, nor was it implied. The basic problem is angry gammons generally have no concept of what a referrendum is in the UK, and revert to the first past the post system which is not applicable to them.

All sides said the referendum would be respected. Since the referendum produces a piece of advice, which does not in any way have to be followed (even if it was resoundingly clear). All sides have looked, considered it and therefore have respected it's result.

The advice from the referendum 3 years ago, at best says, the electorate are split, with a very narrow preference to leave.

That's been considered, along with all the other advice, forecasts and national interests....we await the final decision.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
That is what I am wondering myself. Brexit should be very easy. No deal, no more money for Brussels, complete control for the UK.


Naive to no end.

Even the dyed in the wool "official" Brexetiers have long retreated from that promise.
A lie from the get go of "Schlaraffia achieved for the UK via Brexit".


Just because it is easy, does not mean it is not stupid. Finding a Brexit solution that is not stupid is imho next to impossible, but doing a Brexit is pretty easy, everybody should know all possible options by now.
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
The WA agreement is dead and rightfully so after being rejected repeatedly. It is unacceptable to the UK and does not deliver a true Brexit


WA was not the only thing that was rejected.
MPs voted on multiple things and ALL OF THEM got REJECTED including the "true brexit".
So if you are honest you should say that "true hard brexit" is also dead after being rejected repeatedly.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:30 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

It's exactly that. Trust.

EU trusts the UK while it's under EU rules. If/when UK rules differ from EU rules there will need to be mechanisms to ensure UK products meet or exceed EU rules.

Ever tried to ship food items to the US? On paper it's two Western economies with similar workplace, environmental, etc. concerns. In the real world the US takes great pains to ensure your products are compliant and certified (and leaves you with high compliance costs).



What makes the UK any different from importing from any third nation importing to the EU now?

Are the Americans/Australians/Kiwis/Singaporeans/Israeli’s etc more trustworthy than those from the UK


Those goods are checked and certified, exactly as it will happen for UK goods.


So the reality no different to any one else.


http://www.agriculture.gov.au/export/co ... quirements
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Ertro wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The WA agreement is dead and rightfully so after being rejected repeatedly. It is unacceptable to the UK and does not deliver a true Brexit


WA was not the only thing that was rejected.
MPs voted on multiple things and ALL OF THEM got REJECTED including the "true brexit".
So if you are honest you should say that "true hard brexit" is also dead after being rejected repeatedly.


But unfortunately a no deal exit is the only eventual guaranteed outcome if parliment does not vote for anything else. Rejecting a no deal exit does not stop no deal exit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:35 pm

A101 wrote:
But unfortunately a no deal exit is the only eventual guaranteed outcome if parliment does not vote for anything else. Rejecting a no deal exit does not stop no deal exit.


Rejecting a no deal brexit might not stop a no deal, but perhaps legal action does, because - as you know -, there is still some unclear tekst which need to be clarified by a court ruling.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
But unfortunately a no deal exit is the only eventual guaranteed outcome if parliment does not vote for anything else. Rejecting a no deal exit does not stop no deal exit.


Rejecting a no deal brexit might not stop a no deal, but perhaps legal action does, because - as you know -, there is still some unclear tekst which need to be clarified by a court ruling.



Well that one’s going to appeal to as they lost.


And that case potentially will end up in ECJ which could cause a constitutional crisis within the European union on which agreement holds precedence over the Treaty of the European union

Now that would be been interesting one to watch
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:55 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
But unfortunately a no deal exit is the only eventual guaranteed outcome if parliment does not vote for anything else. Rejecting a no deal exit does not stop no deal exit.


Rejecting a no deal brexit might not stop a no deal, but perhaps legal action does, because - as you know -, there is still some unclear tekst which need to be clarified by a court ruling.



Well that one’s going to appeal to as they lost.


And that case potentially will end up in ECJ which could cause a constitutional crisis within the European union on which agreement holds precedence over the Treaty of the European union

Now that would be been interesting one to watch


The point was you said "garanteed" and it isn't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Rejecting a no deal brexit might not stop a no deal, but perhaps legal action does, because - as you know -, there is still some unclear tekst which need to be clarified by a court ruling.



Well that one’s going to appeal to as they lost.


And that case potentially will end up in ECJ which could cause a constitutional crisis within the European union on which agreement holds precedence over the Treaty of the European union

Now that would be been interesting one to watch


The point was you said "garanteed" and it isn't.



Well I wouldn’t bet against it put it that way,
The remain camp keeps harping on how the EU laws are the foundation of the GFA so therefore A50 is part of that foundation, you can’t have it both ways.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:37 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Well that one’s going to appeal to as they lost.


And that case potentially will end up in ECJ which could cause a constitutional crisis within the European union on which agreement holds precedence over the Treaty of the European union

Now that would be been interesting one to watch


The point was you said "garanteed" and it isn't.



Well I wouldn’t bet against it put it that way,
The remain camp keeps harping on how the EU laws are the foundation of the GFA so therefore A50 is part of that foundation, you can’t have it both ways.


You are deflecting, fine no worries man, I will not make you admitting your mistake..... :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The point was you said "garanteed" and it isn't.



Well I wouldn’t bet against it put it that way,
The remain camp keeps harping on how the EU laws are the foundation of the GFA so therefore A50 is part of that foundation, you can’t have it both ways.


You are deflecting, fine no worries man, I will not make you admitting your mistake..... :lol:



If I’ve made a mistake I would have to know it first, but there’s nothing wrong with you pointing it out.and i guarantee theEU will protect the TEU over the GFA all day everyday and twice on Sunday this is born out with the WAand SM
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:38 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:


What makes the UK any different from importing from any third nation importing to the EU now?

Are the Americans/Australians/Kiwis/Singaporeans/Israeli’s etc more trustworthy than those from the UK


Those goods are checked and certified, exactly as it will happen for UK goods.


So the reality no different to any one else.


http://www.agriculture.gov.au/export/co ... quirements


Exactly: red tape and border checks.

UK producers will be thrilled at the prospect, but it's a small price to pay for sovereignty.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:11 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Those goods are checked and certified, exactly as it will happen for UK goods.


So the reality no different to any one else.


http://www.agriculture.gov.au/export/co ... quirements


Exactly: red tape and border checks.

UK producers will be thrilled at the prospect, but it's a small price to pay for sovereignty.

Do we really have people who believe that sovereignty comes without a price?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:39 am

[threeid][/threeid]
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Those goods are checked and certified, exactly as it will happen for UK goods.


So the reality no different to any one else.


http://www.agriculture.gov.au/export/co ... quirements


Exactly: red tape and border checks.

UK producers will be thrilled at the prospect, but it's a small price to pay for sovereignty.


Yeah randomly and about 5% of goods checked by the link, besides livestock and natural resources everything else is imported onto the island and under CTA the ROI has access to that information.

I’m sure the Northern Ireland people can handle a little bit of paperwork.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:53 am

Finally we are moving forward now it’s time for parliament to put up or shut up when Parliament reconvene in October

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-49749465
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:08 am

The legal case against the government is interesting.

At the beginning of World War 1, the government shut down parliament, because the country needed action, not talk.

In the 1910s, the government shut down parliament several times and reconvened a new session - as a way to get around the House of Lords, which could be circumvented if the House of Commons approved a bill in three consecutive sessions.

I don't like my own conclusion, but I think the government would have the right to shut down parliament until after Brexit has been achieved. There's a complete lack of clear rules. So BoJo is allowed to play his game...
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:19 am

A101 wrote:
Finally we are moving forward now it’s time for parliament to put up or shut up when Parliament reconvene in October

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-49749465


And what do you read in the article that I don't see? Johnson has a clear deadline of 12 days to have something ready which is acceptable to the EU and House of Commons. He hasn't moved forward in the past 60 odd days, so why now?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 am

A101 wrote:
Finally we are moving forward now it’s time for parliament to put up or shut up when Parliament reconvene in October

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-49749465


I'd say it's just reinforcing the 30 day figure Angela Merkel quoted recently but with an extension to the end of the month. I'd say it's more down to Boris to "put up or shut up" with an alternative proposal between now and the end of the month. Parliament have already laid down the law with what Boris has to do if he fails to do so before the next European Council summit.

When you take a step back, it's also provides reasonable timeframe between then and the Council summit to scrutinise the plans and decide whether they're acceptable or not.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Finally we are moving forward now it’s time for parliament to put up or shut up when Parliament reconvene in October

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-49749465


And what do you read in the article that I don't see? Johnson has a clear deadline of 12 days to have something ready which is acceptable to the EU and House of Commons. He hasn't moved forward in the past 60 odd days, so why now?



Antti Rinne said he and French President Emmanuel Macron agreed the UK needed to produce the proposals in writing by the end of September, adding if not, "then it's over".


I would describe that as being 12 to come up with a deal then it’s over one would take that as being NO to an extension and refuse to deal with Boris after that. And then my emphasis would be for parliament to make a move once they sit again either we will revoke or crash out.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:49 am

A101 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

So the reality no different to any one else.


http://www.agriculture.gov.au/export/co ... quirements


Exactly: red tape and border checks.

UK producers will be thrilled at the prospect, but it's a small price to pay for sovereignty.


Yeah randomly and about 5% of goods checked by the link, besides livestock and natural resources everything else is imported onto the island and under CTA the ROI has access to that information.

I’m sure the Northern Ireland people can handle a little bit of paperwork.


It's not a little bit. It's expensive to set up (by the government), expensive to keep going and expensive (in time, and maybe some of the cost gets passed down) for the exporter.

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 27296?s=19

It's an interesting Twitter thread on why all the measures the UK is proposing do not lead to an open border which what the whole thing revolves about.

If the UK was open about knowing their position ultimately leads to an actual, enforced border and quite more than a little bit of paperwork the EU would just take their position and go with it. But then they'd have to tell that to their Northern Irish voters and they'd rather say it's the fault of bad EU.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:59 am

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 11066.html

If you go half way down the article, it states that the European Parliament have passed a resolution to support an Article 50 extension under all circumstances with the prevention of no deal as one reason, despite pressure from a small number to remove no deal prevention as a justification. Either way, it shows some divisions on the European side over what to do in the event of an extension request; however ultimately it's down to the Council to approve any extension.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:27 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Finally we are moving forward now it’s time for parliament to put up or shut up when Parliament reconvene in October

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-49749465


And what do you read in the article that I don't see? Johnson has a clear deadline of 12 days to have something ready which is acceptable to the EU and House of Commons. He hasn't moved forward in the past 60 odd days, so why now?



Antti Rinne said he and French President Emmanuel Macron agreed the UK needed to produce the proposals in writing by the end of September, adding if not, "then it's over".


I would describe that as being 12 to come up with a deal then it’s over one would take that as being NO to an extension and refuse to deal with Boris after that. And then my emphasis would be for parliament to make a move once they sit again either we will revoke or crash out.


Parliament is provoked as you might remember, so what do you expect Parlement to do within the next 12 days? It is up to Boris Johnson to get the deal he wants and propose it to parliament when they return on the 15th. So yeah, it is time for Boris Johnson to move forward or shut-up and repaired, if he doesn't come up with a deal, to put that to parlement and see what happens and then everything is back on the table, including revoking article 50. Be prepared for that outcome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:59 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-boris-johnson-deal-plan-deadline-ultimatum-latest-a9111066.html

If you go half way down the article, it states that the European Parliament have passed a resolution to support an Article 50 extension under all circumstances with the prevention of no deal as one reason, despite pressure from a small number to remove no deal prevention as a justification. Either way, it shows some divisions on the European side over what to do in the event of an extension request; however ultimately it's down to the Council to approve any extension.


It is a non binding resolution......
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And what do you read in the article that I don't see? Johnson has a clear deadline of 12 days to have something ready which is acceptable to the EU and House of Commons. He hasn't moved forward in the past 60 odd days, so why now?



Antti Rinne said he and French President Emmanuel Macron agreed the UK needed to produce the proposals in writing by the end of September, adding if not, "then it's over".


I would describe that as being 12 to come up with a deal then it’s over one would take that as being NO to an extension and refuse to deal with Boris after that. And then my emphasis would be for parliament to make a move once they sit again either we will revoke or crash out.


Parliament is provoked as you might remember, so what do you expect Parlement to do within the next 12 days? It is up to Boris Johnson to get the deal he wants and propose it to parliament when they return on the 15th. So yeah, it is time for Boris Johnson to move forward or shut-up and repaired, if he doesn't come up with a deal, to put that to parlement and see what happens and then everything is back on the table, including revoking article 50. Be prepared for that outcome.


It’s Prorogued not provoked, and if you read what I wrote which is basically what I said above, as for being prepared for revocation I have said that in the past a number of time where I think we will end up. Not that I agree with it but know it’s always been a possibility.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:52 am

You will get your no deal, and I pity the poor guys that will suffer from it.

But when you see today Stephen Barclay ask the EU to be flexible, meaning in fact please break the SM so our lies can stand, there is no mercy to have.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:40 am

A101 wrote:
It’s Prorogued not provoked, and if you read what I wrote which is basically what I said above, as for being prepared for revocation I have said that in the past a number of time where I think we will end up. Not that I agree with it but know it’s always been a possibility.


Interesting that my mind went to provoked, it indeed is provoked :lol:

Interesting that you think that the UK ends up staying, I think they are not but we'll see.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:41 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49753413

I guess we'll find out tomorrow whether these have any legs, are unsuitable or merely a rehash of what was rejected before.

Olddog wrote:
It is a non binding resolution......


I know. My point is that it appears not everybody on the EU side is singing off the same hymn sheet at the moment.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:14 pm

Yes but if you understand the Eu you should know that the powers are not at that level and that it will have zero influence on the end result.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:14 pm

Olddog wrote:
Yes but if you understand the Eu you should know that the powers are not at that level and that it will have zero influence on the end result.

More and more that is the key in relation to the English, whether parliament or their civil service, if after 40+ years they do not understand including what they worked on putting in place, should we have expected any thing from them, without the EU they probably have no clue how to collect taxes, pay bills or much less run a country.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:15 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49753413

I guess we'll find out tomorrow whether these have any legs, are unsuitable or merely a rehash of what was rejected before.

Olddog wrote:
It is a non binding resolution......


I know. My point is that it appears not everybody on the EU side is singing off the same hymn sheet at the moment.


It doesnt matter as long as there is a majority and everyone goes with the result.

The UK (and, coincidentally, Trump) has tried several times to try to get concessions out of individual member states and the reply is invariably a polite we understand you but you are negotiating with the EU, not me.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:04 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
The legal case against the government is interesting.

At the beginning of World War 1, the government shut down parliament, because the country needed action, not talk.

In the 1910s, the government shut down parliament several times and reconvened a new session - as a way to get around the House of Lords, which could be circumvented if the House of Commons approved a bill in three consecutive sessions.

I don't like my own conclusion, but I think the government would have the right to shut down parliament until after Brexit has been achieved. There's a complete lack of clear rules. So BoJo is allowed to play his game...


The legal case against the government is interesting indeed and it seems the verdict will be not a simple YES or NO result, as the justices have been spending enormous time and effort on the remedial aspect of a verdict during the debates, something which is not needed is they'd sit with the government.

Most observers seem to think that they will uphold the government's right to prorogue Parliament and will not rule on the reasons given for that, but will shorten the time of prorogation to the usual length rather than this exceptionally long duration, hence the need for them to be informed on the methods to recall parliament sooner than now planned.

With Parliament sitting and BoJo missing the self-imposed deadlline he thought to be contained in Mrs Merckel's 30 day offer (and which was formalized later by France and Finland yet is now officially rejected by the Brexit Secretary), a vote of no confidence is likely to pass, after which Parliament could -instead of voting for elections as BoJo hopes-, vote for a caretaking PM first, all in order to secure the extension from the EU.... ;)
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:24 pm

JJJ wrote:
It doesnt matter as long as there is a majority and everyone goes with the result.


It wouldn't surprise me if there is a compromise of some sort. I recall for the last extension May requested 30th June 2019, Merkel I think was once quoted saying that the UK should take as long as they needed, Tusk was talking about a one year "flextension" which Macron was against and we ended up with 31st October 2019. Not what May or Tusk wanted, but accepted nonetheless and we are where we are now.

sabenapilot wrote:
With Parliament sitting and BoJo missing the self-imposed deadlline he thought to be contained in Mrs Merckel's 30 day offer (and which was formalized later by France and Finland yet is now officially rejected by the Brexit Secretary), a vote of no confidence is likely to pass, after which Parliament could -instead of voting for elections as BoJo hopes-, vote for a caretaking PM first, all in order to secure the extension from the EU.... ;)


Your last part of your sentence touches on a good point. Even if Boris is forced out before the next Council summit, it will have to be the job of whoever takes over to put in the request, simply because the PM (at the moment Boris, but the law would surely be applicable to whoever is PM) is legally obliged to do so.

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