A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:40 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
The majority voted to leave the mechanism of the EU

When did this happen? Don't say the referendum of 2016, because they didn't.
.


What other avenue are you going to use to what the general feeling of the electorate is feeling...…..an unreliable sample poll?


ChrisKen wrote:
The 2016 referendum was a poll of the electorate in order to obtain the advice of the electorate.
.


And one they proclaimed would be acted upon

ChrisKen wrote:
The resulting advice was the electorate were split on the matter with a very narrow margin preferring to leave.


Until parliament changes the way referendums are conducted or the Parliament places certain conditions to be met the result was a legal interpretation from the electorate

ChrisKen wrote:
It wasn't a win/lose vote, it doesn't get interrupted or followed through as per a GE and it sure as hell isn't required to be followed through regardless of the outcome.


Correct they could have set it aside, but it was policy of the government and parliament followed thru with it

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament and its MP's all said they would respect the result. They did this because respecting the result just means they have to consider the advice given ALONGSIDE all the other factors including their main priority, the national interests. If an MP considered the advice before voting in the house, then the 'result' has been respected.


there was the required debate within Parliament and they still passed the bill to invoke the process

ChrisKen wrote:
You can get stamp your feet and get as gammon faced as you want, but if you keep spouting 'but democracy, leave won!', then it's clear to all you haven't got a grasp of how our democracy works on its most basic of levels.


I think I've been involved enough to know how the system works

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament clearly beleive no deal is very much against the national interests.
If the NoDeal morons want a no deal, they should actually put forward a argument that will persuade them otherwise. They won't because the consenus (globally) says otherwise.


Parliament clearly knows the difference between a good deal and a bad deal, but until they vote to remain no deal is the default,

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament haven't yet reached consensus on which is the best option for the UK. Parliament is soverign, the house of commons is our democractic voice. It's their decision to make, let them make it. Stop with the faux non-democratic outrage just because they won't screw over 65million people with your preferred option right now.


Parliament is clearly frustrating the process to engineer a certain result I would have had more respect if they just decided on a position and stick to it revoke or leave those are the choices.

Under your interpretation if they put in a caretaker PM during the week what makes a 2nd referendum have more importance as the first, and if by chance it came back as no deal should Parliament honour the result after all its non-binding right, the LibDems have all ready said they wont and they will fight all the way to remain.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:41 pm

A101 wrote:
So we are basically in agreement the judiciary has now injected itself within the executive, any hint of malfeasance will be contested irrespective of the circumstances


The judiciary hasn't 'injected itself' at all. :shakehead:

A case was brought against the Government and the Government lost. It's happened before and it will happen again.

A101 wrote:
Of course it does as it is say in any action...


It actually doesn't matter what was said to the Queen because when it came to the crunch, the Government couldn't convince even a single judge in eleven that they had "reasonable justification" to Prorogue for five weeks. You can try and spin it however you want, but that's the simple truth.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:15 pm

par13del wrote:
LJ wrote:
One should stop any discussion after your first sentence. We have a policy within our company which says that it doesn't matter what's implied or what deal we may think we have with a regulator/government or contract party, the only thing what matters is what's written in a contract(or otherwise formally agreed)

To make sure I understand your point, you want to apply contract law to what a government does with its citizens? Government / companies contract law is fine, but if you attempt to apply that to the political system, how will that work? I say political system because it starts at the MP's level, they promise during campaigns, parties who form the government does the same, we have precedent established over the length and history of elected legislatures where going back on promise was and is done. All bills / laws etc are not driven by the government, a minority are driven by the parliament itself - see what is taking place now - so we cannot limit to just government MP's.
If I have misread your post my apologies.


My point is that the UK Courts are usually follow the law and are less pragmatic than other Courts. Hence why the dicusssion about the fact that Parliament should shut up and follow "the will of the people" is somewhat strange as legally they're the one who represent the "people" (and a referendum doesn't have any legal status). The same for prorogation. All that counts are the arguments and in absence of any argument (at least mentioned in Court) in favor of the prorogation, it's not strange that the Surpreme Court decides the prorogation is unlawful (as one needs to have arguments for it). Any discussion as to why the Courts should have decided otherwise is useless.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is part of my interpretation Mr. Hammond said, indeed. And what is your interpretation of "re-order our economy and society"? Given that the backers of Brexit are mostly from the City.

Unfortunately the backers are in the minority in terms of numbers, the bulk of the 17+ million are outside of the cities and the suburbs.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:04 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
So we are basically in agreement the judiciary has now injected itself within the executive, any hint of malfeasance will be contested irrespective of the circumstances


The judiciary hasn't 'injected itself' at all. :shakehead:

A case was brought against the Government and the Government lost. It's happened before and it will happen again.


A101 wrote:
Of course it does as it is say in any action...


It actually doesn't matter what was said to the Queen because when it came to the crunch, the Government couldn't convince even a single judge in eleven that they had "reasonable justification" to Prorogue for five weeks. You can try and spin it however you want, but that's the simple truth.


Well it actually has because now it’s made a precedent on what is reasonable justification to prorogue Parliament, a page or two back you made the case that it wasn’t the length for the justification, now you are saying it’s the length. The documents presented to the court are for exactly the same reasons a majority of prorogue parliament have been used for over hundreds of years. And as I said before this session is the 2nd longest in UK history, Parliaments own website says the sessions roughly each year, so really the justification as I pointed previously that you objected to is actually the length of prorogation not that the government didn’t have a reasonable justification as they failed to actually hear if the advice was unlawful.

Now the precedence has been set as the remedy to the action is that Parliament has not been prorogued at all and the Parliament can sit. As the document show that prorogueing Parliment because the length of a session is no longer a reasonable justification nor is setting a new legislative agenda for the house to preside over is a reasonable justification; so what is exactly a reasonable justification? If those actions are reasonable justification outside these exceptional circumstances than why wasn’t the remedy that prorougation should be limited to the 7 day prior to Her Majesty’s speech on the 14 October?
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:29 pm

A101 wrote:
Well it actually has because now it’s made a precedent on what is reasonable justification to prorogue Parliament, a page or two back you made the case that it wasn’t the length for the justification, now you are saying it’s the length.


No I'm not, the Prorogation was ruled unlawful because the Government could not justify it. Not that it was five weeks, but that the Government had no "reasonable justification" for making it five weeks. They could have prorogued for ten weeks with "reasonable justification". They didn't have it.

Do try to move on old chap. :wave:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well it actually has because now it’s made a precedent on what is reasonable justification to prorogue Parliament, a page or two back you made the case that it wasn’t the length for the justification, now you are saying it’s the length.


No I'm not, the Prorogation was ruled unlawful because the Government could not justify it. Not that it was five weeks, but that the Government had no "reasonable justification" for making it five weeks. They could have prorogued for ten weeks with "reasonable justification". They didn't have it.

Do try to move on old chap. :wave:


They did not rule on if the advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, but the length of time. If the advice itself was unlawful why didn’t they rule on it?

So if Boris Johnson prorogued parliament for a shorter period and the advice was the same (Longest session new legislative agenda) would you now say he was justified on the same advice to Her Majesty?




This was not a normal prorogation in the run-up to a Queen’s Speech. It prevented Parliament from carrying out its constitutional role for five out of a possible eight weeks between the end of the summer recess and exit day on the 31st October
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:40 am

They have now admitted that they wanted to prorogue to stop parliament from doing its job regarding Brexit, which is illegal, and was certainly not the reason given to the Queen, so I don't understand why we're still arguing about it.

An usual 1 week prorogation would have been fine.
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:51 am

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is part of my interpretation Mr. Hammond said, indeed. And what is your interpretation of "re-order our economy and society"? Given that the backers of Brexit are mostly from the City.

Unfortunately the backers are in the minority in terms of numbers, the bulk of the 17+ million are outside of the cities and the suburbs.


I meant that the people who are behind the Brexit campaign are from the financial community in the City of London. And these most likely want to deregulate just about everything, including the rights of workers and the financial industry. The canary in the coalmine: the shift from a Norway model to a Singapore model.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is part of my interpretation Mr. Hammond said, indeed. And what is your interpretation of "re-order our economy and society"? Given that the backers of Brexit are mostly from the City.

Unfortunately the backers are in the minority in terms of numbers, the bulk of the 17+ million are outside of the cities and the suburbs.


I meant that the people who are behind the Brexit campaign are from the financial community in the City of London. And these most likely want to deregulate just about everything, including the rights of workers and the financial industry. The canary in the coalmine: the shift from a Norway model to a Singapore model.


Yes and that's why they try to get that mutual recognition agreement on the agenda so badly. Unfortunately for them, look at the previous job of Barnier for the Commission and you will see why they will NEVER have it.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:06 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well it actually has because now it’s made a precedent on what is reasonable justification to prorogue Parliament, a page or two back you made the case that it wasn’t the length for the justification, now you are saying it’s the length.


No I'm not, the Prorogation was ruled unlawful because the Government could not justify it. Not that it was five weeks, but that the Government had no "reasonable justification" for making it five weeks. They could have prorogued for ten weeks with "reasonable justification". They didn't have it.

Do try to move on old chap. :wave:


They did not rule on if the advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, but the length of time. If the advice itself was unlawful why didn’t they rule on it?


They didn't need to rule on it as the government didn't provide any justification for the prorogation. No justification means that it became unlawful, Moreover, it enabled the Court not to rule on the advice itself.

A101 wrote:
So if Boris Johnson prorogued parliament for a shorter period and the advice was the same (Longest session new legislative agenda) would you now say he was justified on the same advice to Her Majesty?


It would depend on the justification given in Court (also in relation to the evidence provided by the other party). If the government would have provided an argument which was justifiable, then the Court had to decide whether it could rule on the advice and thereafter if the advice was correct. In essence, the Courts could stop before it became politically sensitive as the government was unable to provide arguments for this specific prorogation. What would happen should the Courts have decided that the arguments were justifiable is unknown and pure speculation. A short prorogation would probably be justifiable, but a short prorogation would probably not been challenged in Court as well.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:50 am

A101 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:
The majority voted to leave the mechanism of the EU

When did this happen? Don't say the referendum of 2016, because they didn't.
.


What other avenue are you going to use to what the general feeling of the electorate is feeling...…..an unreliable sample poll?


ChrisKen wrote:
The 2016 referendum was a poll of the electorate in order to obtain the advice of the electorate.
.


And one they proclaimed would be acted upon

ChrisKen wrote:
The resulting advice was the electorate were split on the matter with a very narrow margin preferring to leave.


Until parliament changes the way referendums are conducted or the Parliament places certain conditions to be met the result was a legal interpretation from the electorate

ChrisKen wrote:
It wasn't a win/lose vote, it doesn't get interrupted or followed through as per a GE and it sure as hell isn't required to be followed through regardless of the outcome.


Correct they could have set it aside, but it was policy of the government and parliament followed thru with it

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament and its MP's all said they would respect the result. They did this because respecting the result just means they have to consider the advice given ALONGSIDE all the other factors including their main priority, the national interests. If an MP considered the advice before voting in the house, then the 'result' has been respected.


there was the required debate within Parliament and they still passed the bill to invoke the process

ChrisKen wrote:
You can get stamp your feet and get as gammon faced as you want, but if you keep spouting 'but democracy, leave won!', then it's clear to all you haven't got a grasp of how our democracy works on its most basic of levels.


I think I've been involved enough to know how the system works

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament clearly beleive no deal is very much against the national interests.
If the NoDeal morons want a no deal, they should actually put forward a argument that will persuade them otherwise. They won't because the consenus (globally) says otherwise.


Parliament clearly knows the difference between a good deal and a bad deal, but until they vote to remain no deal is the default,

ChrisKen wrote:
Parliament haven't yet reached consensus on which is the best option for the UK. Parliament is soverign, the house of commons is our democractic voice. It's their decision to make, let them make it. Stop with the faux non-democratic outrage just because they won't screw over 65million people with your preferred option right now.


Parliament is clearly frustrating the process to engineer a certain result I would have had more respect if they just decided on a position and stick to it revoke or leave those are the choices.

Under your interpretation if they put in a caretaker PM during the week what makes a 2nd referendum have more importance as the first, and if by chance it came back as no deal should Parliament honour the result after all its non-binding right, the LibDems have all ready said they wont and they will fight all the way to remain.


We can go round in circles for years and years with you arguing the same tired old soundbites or your more usual pitiful attempts at deflecting from the questions but ultimately your arguments are based upon the incorrect interpretation of a referendum result and a fundamental lack of undertstanding of our Parliament and it's roles.

Parliament have decided that no deal is a no go for now. Parliament can and will stop a no deal by default, get over it.
Parliament have explored leaving the EU in the extreme by initiating the process, Parliament can reverse that decision. Let them get on with making their (on our behalf) decision for the future of the UK. You not liking it is not undemocratic, wrong or disrespectful.

Come up with a real, truthful argument for the benefits of leaving, come up with credible solutions for the problems that leaving will cause, then and only then you might sway Parliament that leaving is in the interests of the UK.
Leave have still not done any of these things, despite 3 years of being asked to do so (and 40 years of prior membership too).
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:35 am

The man himself, Boris Johnson, now mentions that Brexit means border checks between ROI and NI. Needless to say these checks cannot be considered a "hard border" but we at least know that there won't be
a frictionless border. Thus in essence, some sort a realism has entered the UK government, though it took a while for them to acknowledge this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49890199

BTW I wonder what'the UK government comes back on next.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:56 am

LJ wrote:
The man himself, Boris Johnson, now mentions that Brexit means border checks between ROI and NI. Needless to say these checks cannot be considered a "hard border" but we at least know that there won't be
a frictionless border. Thus in essence, some sort a realism has entered the UK government, though it took a while for them to acknowledge this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49890199

BTW I wonder what'the UK government comes back on next.


Interesting of course, the main line of the article is of course:

But a European Commission spokesperson said they would not be commenting on the reports, adding they had "not received any proposals from the UK that meet all the objectives of the backstop, as we have been reiterating and demanding".


Still no proposals which will be acceptable to the EU, as aspected.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Still no proposals which will be acceptable to the EU, as aspected.

There's been none from Leave that are acceptable to the UK either sniggeremoji
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:40 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Still no proposals which will be acceptable to the EU, as aspected.

There's been none from Leave that are acceptable to the UK either sniggeremoji


True....

So back to square one: discuss amoung yourself what you actually want which isn't cherry picking. But then again, time is up...... the deadline set by Merkel has passed. So it is time for mr. Johnson to write its letter......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:18 am

kaitak wrote:
I find it quite surprising that the leader of the British TUC, Len McCluskey, a big gun in Labour circles, is opposed to any new referendum on the EU and wants Brexit to go ahead. Doesn't the union movement realise that coming out of the EU has the potential to be very damaging to workers' rights and lega protections?


Len McCluskey is not leader of the TUC. He is General Secretary of the Unite union which is the largest affiliated union to Labour and is one union Labour need on side more than any of them, hence why McCluskey's views have clout within Labour. Despite being an ally, his clout he could be the one that ultimately decides when Corbyn's time as Labour leader is up.

Rightly or wrongly, McCluskey's stance is no doubt based on respecting democracy (the unions like to claim they're democratic institutions after all). You will also find that a lot of unions were probably in favour of remaining, though the RMT union was one of the few exceptions.

Dutchy wrote:
Still no proposals which will be acceptable to the EU, as aspected.


Let's see what Boris is submitting to them today. If reports about Northern Ireland being treated differently to the rest of the UK in some areas are true, it would infer there's a big shift in the UK government's position on the cards.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:05 pm

So we saw the last "offer" from the UK. It is not worth the toilet paper it was printed on......
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:55 pm

Olddog wrote:
So we saw the last "offer" from the UK. It is not worth the toilet paper it was printed on......



I have only seen a summary of it Of course the devil will be the detail but what is exactly is your objection to it so far?
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:06 pm

A lot of points are just non starters but just for you I ll single out the DUP lock.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:09 pm

If there is no deal, it is the fault of the EU. Johnson´s proposal is very well thought out and generous.
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
So we saw the last "offer" from the UK. It is not worth the toilet paper it was printed on......



I have only seen a summary of it Of course the devil will be the detail but what is exactly is your objection to it so far?


Here you go - not hard to find -, all seven pages of it: [url]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/836030/Explanatory_Note.pdf]Link to the "proposal"[/url].

The plan, outlined in a seven-page document, would see Northern Ireland stay in the European single market for goods, but leave the customs union - resulting in new customs checks.


link

The EU will politely decline, and for all the same reasons. It is wishful thinking at best, and a non-proposal as an excuse for a hard Brexit at worst. The latter is probably true.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The EU will politely decline, and for all the same reasons. It is wishful thinking at best, and a non-proposal as an excuse for a hard Brexit at worst. The latter is probably true.

Well it does bear some resemblance to a prior proposal which proposed a border in the Irish Sea, hopefully is has more working than unworkable parts.
In any event, as long as the parliament and the EU can live on ongoing extensions, there really is no need for a deal or no deal.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The EU will politely decline, and for all the same reasons. It is wishful thinking at best, and a non-proposal as an excuse for a hard Brexit at worst. The latter is probably true.

Well it does bear some resemblance to a prior proposal which proposed a border in the Irish Sea, hopefully is has more working than unworkable parts.
In any event, as long as the parliament and the EU can live on ongoing extensions, there really is no need for a deal or no deal.


From what I an see without reading the full document yet it’s actully a good compromise as hopefully by the time it comes up for the assembly vote the FTA will be squared away.

So what is the problem of giving the assembly the right to vote on its own, consent is the whole point of the GFA anyhow, so if the EU actully knock this back it comes down to them wanting all or nothing
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:43 pm

Just an example:

the UUP response:

“The Prime Minister and the DUP are fooling no-one with these proposals. This new protocol should be deeply concerning for all those who have the long term economic and constitutional welfare of Northern Ireland and its people at heart.

“Northern Ireland would be locked into continual political debates about Brexit and alignment with the rest of the UK or EU. They would set the theme of every Assembly and Westminster election. It plunges Northern Ireland into a referendum in the Assembly Chamber every four years with high stakes consequences for our people. It will keep our businesses and agri-food sector in a perpetual cycle of uncertainty.

“These proposals haven’t been thought through and would see DUP statements that Northern Ireland would leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom being flipped on their heads. Northern Ireland would become a hybrid part of the UK with a border up the Irish Sea."

“This represents a road to Damascus conversion by the DUP and a very sharp u-turn on statements they made to the Northern Ireland public. The Prime Minister and the DUP were full of big talk. These proposals don’t offer them much of a fig leaf.”
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:22 pm

A101 wrote:
From what I an see without reading the full document yet it’s actully a good compromise as hopefully by the time it comes up for the assembly vote the FTA will be squared away.

So what is the problem of giving the assembly the right to vote on its own, consent is the whole point of the GFA anyhow, so if the EU actully knock this back it comes down to them wanting all or nothing


Read the document 100%.

I read border checks necessary, with the unicorns of electronic checks - which can't be put into effect before the end of the month anyway. We'll see if the EU and defacto Ireland can agree with it.

I can't see it happening because of the unicorn.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:29 am

Parliament will be prorogued from the 8th

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-parl ... m-tuesday/
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:49 am

In other words: Boris keeps insisting on crashing out without a deal with an insincerely designed "proposal" which is no more than a domestic fig leaf and designed to fail at the EU and as before he wants Parliament shoved out of the way so it can't stop him from perpetrating that.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:03 am

Klaus wrote:
In other words: Boris keeps insisting on crashing out without a deal with an insincerely designed "proposal" which is no more than a domestic fig leaf and designed to fail at the EU and as before he wants Parliament shoved out of the way so it can't stop him from perpetrating that.



No I don’t think so, it’s the only proposal that is capable of meeting both sides needs. We leave the jurisdiction of the EU and and protects the single market

The objections from remain is that it no longer meets their objective of creating a vassal state of NI
 
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:36 am

So the man who coined "undemocratic backstop" now has proposed a Stormont backstop.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:50 am

Aesma wrote:
So the man who coined "undemocratic backstop" now has proposed a Stormont backstop.


What is the problem with the Assembly having a say on how the regulations will work in NI after all it’s what the GFA actully stands for.

Remember it’s not Westminster who will have control but NI I think they will be awere of the repercussions if they do not keep it going after all we still do not know what the Future Trade Relationship will be.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:51 am

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:52 am

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:54 am

A101 wrote:
Parliament will be prorogued from the 8th

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-parl ... m-tuesday/


Good, so Brexit will finally happen.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:41 am

Aesma wrote:
Image


&

Aesma wrote:
Image



:bigthumbsup:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:46 am

A101 wrote:
What is the problem with the Assembly having a say on how the regulations will work in NI after all it’s what the GFA actully stands for.


Nothing, if all partners have an equal say. And the immediate problem is, of course, the border, you are douging the question about it again. The unicorn of the electronic border doesn't go away. You, yourself, argued that it takes at least 1,5years to invent the stuff needed for this, but you want to have it in 28 days...................

So it is a non-proposal and with a take it of leave it attitude, it will be leaving, but he, that is not what Parliament wants, so I guess it will be remain then. Probably with all Brexiteers sobbing in a little corner how the bad bad EU didn't let them leave, but as we all know it is the Brexiteers who actually created the situation that Brexit couldn't happen because they went all extremestic about it.

Ah well, playtime is over, you had your little fun for the past 3 years - at the cost of billions and people's lives ruined because they lost their jobs - now it is time to grow-up again and take responsibility for your actions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:47 am

Aesma wrote:
Image



Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:48 am

The UK proposition is to ask a permanent loophole in the SM.

In the same document they ask the EU to be bound by treaty to never have checks on the island and same time give the DUP the right to reject EU rules by 2020 or every 4 years..... And A101 does not see a problem :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:52 am

Olddog wrote:
The UK proposition is to ask a permanent loophole in the SM.

In the same document they ask the EU to be bound by treaty to never have checks on the island and same time give the DUP the right to reject EU rules by 2020 or every 4 years..... And A101 does not see a problem :)



No I don’t it actully gives a degree of higher level of autonomy to NI, who knows they actully might become an independent nation in its own right eventually
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:49 am

Stormont backstop. Someone's forgotton Stormont haven't sat for over three years.

Higher degree of autonomy? What planet are you on. Boris is trying to illegally (starting to be a theme) exille NI from the Union.
Two systems, one UK and leave them beholden to the EU the UK is supppsedly leaving behind.

The solution to 'taking back control of our borders' is to open them up completely, you know exact thing we don't have to do as a non-schengen EU member with opt outs but leave campaigned on lies about anyway.

It's utter arse gravy. Leave know it, the EU know it, the public knows it and Parliament know it. #RevokeA50 is getting closer and closer.
 
kaitak
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:41 am

ChrisKen wrote:
It's utter arse gravy


Love it!

I think the kindest way to describe the proposals is that they are an "opening gambit"; they call it take it or leave it, but they are inching closer to sanity; of course, they should have come up with this six month to a year ago, not four weeks before their 31 Oct deadline. If there is flexibility on the UK side, then it may be possible to pull something out of this.

- There is, as has been said above, no Stormont to act in the proposed capacity. Might want to get that up and running. Whether the EU will allow this ... can't see it.

- Why does agri-business have to be a special class on its own; every exporting business in NI should be in the same category.

- Don't put obstacles in the way of NI business and exports; the way to drive NI back towards violence lies not just in ending the open border, but in weakening the NI economy and creating unemployment. Business leaders and groups in NI would much prefer to channel their exports through Dublin and the Irish Republic, rather than the UK. The DUP is focused on a theoretical notion, not the reality on the ground. Let business do what business wants to do. Where there are obstacles, people find a way around them; the best way is not to put them up in the first place.

If there were some pragmatism around this, I think a deal could be done, but phrases like "take it or leave it" don't really help at all
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:02 am

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The UK proposition is to ask a permanent loophole in the SM.

In the same document they ask the EU to be bound by treaty to never have checks on the island and same time give the DUP the right to reject EU rules by 2020 or every 4 years..... And A101 does not see a problem :)



No I don’t it actully gives a degree of higher level of autonomy to NI, who knows they actully might become an independent nation in its own right eventually



TLDR gives a good overview of all the problems.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56PNw-_zKw8

As to why DUP "backs" this non-proposal, probably because they know it is unacceptable to many parties and they can shift the blame from them. Perhaps some resemblance to why A101 is promoting this as a compromise while it doesn't solve anything really.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 am

Plus the nice 169 millions £ bribe on top of the rest they were offered yesterday morning....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:40 am

Well the UK does have some experience with how this works, remember HK before being handed back to China and the current system, other than the current protest, it has worked for a number of years read more than 4 and no one has accused HK of making China a capitalist state, so....heck it may even get all parties to actually sit in NI.
Now there is no precedent in the EU but.................
As I said before, time will tell.

Will be interesting to see if the have cake eat it too parliament will pass the UK proposal...
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:32 am

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So the man who coined "undemocratic backstop" now has proposed a Stormont backstop.


What is the problem with the Assembly having a say on how the regulations will work in NI after all it’s what the GFA actully stands for.


The problem at the moment is that the NI Assembly hasn't sat for almost 3 years now. Until such a time they sit again and the parties can agree to work together again, any powers granted to them will just be wasted and unused, whilst in the meantime residents in Northern Ireland suffer as there's no Assembly making decisions or driving forward policies. That is why, for example, Westminster decided to legislate to legalise same sex marriage and abortions which will come into effect later this month unless Stormont is restored before then.

As for the proposal itself, I've not seen the full detail, but based on news reports I'm sceptical whether this is going to go far enough towards being acceptable.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
As for the proposal itself, I've not seen the full detail, but based on news reports I'm sceptical whether this is going to go far enough towards being acceptable.


:checkmark:

It's difficult to see this as anything other than a half-arsed attempt that was specifically designed to be rejected by the EU. Thus allowing Johnson and the other Brextremists to be able to shrug their collective shoulders and say "Look, we tried but those bastard Europeans won't budge an inch. Now we have no choice but to leave with no deal." while trying hard to conceal their glee.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:59 pm

I think way too much damage has been caused nay way too much hate has been spread to make anything but a hard Brexit desirable.

Just yesterday I worked inside some historic monument in Spain, which has a big sign saying that the EU founded the restoration efforts and opening to the public with 80% of the costs. So a bus full of British pensioners arrives and the first thing you hear is "Well that is where our money went" "Time to get out" "We paid for this shit". So they went to buy their tickets and the nice lady explained to them that they are paying the fee for groups which is lower than the one for pensioners and that they can not have the pensioners discount on the group fee, only to be shouted at by some of the Brits "We paid for the fucking shit anyway and should be given free entry" and "Once we are gone you are out of a job!"
Many Spanish colleagues confirmed that they would gladly take a pay cut, if it means less Brits and I must say I would gladly pay a higher fee for the entrance if it means less Brits. I think many on the continent are willing to shoulder the burden just to get rid of the UK.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
As for the proposal itself, I've not seen the full detail, but based on news reports I'm sceptical whether this is going to go far enough towards being acceptable.


:checkmark:

It's difficult to see this as anything other than a half-arsed attempt that was specifically designed to be rejected by the EU. Thus allowing Johnson and the other Brextremists to be able to shrug their collective shoulders and say "Look, we tried but those bastard Europeans won't budge an inch. Now we have no choice but to leave with no deal." while trying hard to conceal their glee.

Other than trying to keep the entire UK locked in because of NI, it is actually an acceptance by the UK that NI has to be treated differently, a big move, recall the fury that was thrown up when the EU proposed the border in the Irish Sea?
I am still hoping that it has more workable options than unworkable, unfortunately, in an all or nothing environment, this will probably be another NYET.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think many on the continent are willing to shoulder the burden just to get rid of the UK.

As with all things political, the question is whether the leadership wants to go along with the public wishes.
Funny thing is, we finally have a plan proposed by the UK government, something which should have been presented to parliament prior to the filing of Article 50 (2016-2017 time frame) which could have formed the basis of the negotiations with the EU, unfortunately, the previous government went with blank papers.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 7: The Frog who Aspired to Become as Big as the Ox

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:17 pm

The Brexit Steering Group of the European Parliament has just published its official response to the UK paper:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/p ... eland-need

First, the UK proposals on customs and on regulatory aspects explicitly provide for infrastructure, controls and checks but are unclear as to exactly where and how these would be carried out. Any form of controls and checks in and around the border would signify the end of frictionless trade and as such would harm the all-island economy as well as represent a serious risk to the peace process, and could imply a serious risk for consumers and businesses. The proposals tabled by the UK Government thus breach a range of fundamental principles and red lines passed in the resolutions of this house. At the same time, such controls would not be sufficient to guarantee the protection of EU consumers and businesses in all circumstances, thereby potentially leaving the EU with a significant hole in its Single Market.
Second, the UK proposals would operationally only be worked out in detail by the EU and the UK, or in the UK unilaterally, during the fourteen-month transition period. This does not provide the necessary certainty or fulfil the agreed principles in the Withdrawal Agreement. This would mean the European Parliament would have to give consent to the Protocol without knowing its full implications, nor having any guarantee as to its legal operation. This is unacceptable.
Third, the right of consent being offered to the Northern Irish Assembly effectively makes an agreement contingent, uncertain, provisional and unilateral decision, instead of the safety net provided for by the backstop. Furthermore, the Northern Irish Assembly has not sat for nearly three years and it is questionable whether it would be able to reconvene and take on the responsibility for an international treaty of this nature.

In summary, the BSG has grave concerns about the UK proposal, as tabled. Safeguarding peace and stability on the island of Ireland, protection of citizens and EU’s legal order has to be the main focus of any deal. The UK proposals do not match even remotely what was agreed as a sufficient compromise in the backstop.

(My emphasis)

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