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olle
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80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:37 am

80 years ago the agreement germany and soviet unions secret chapter how to devide eastern europe.

Invasion of poland by germany and soviet, invasion of finland by soviet

Invasion of baltic state by soviet.

https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+ ... fCCZmPkosM


It is also 30 years ago the protest against molotow ribbentrop agreement in 1989 started the fall ov soviet union occupation of eastern Europe.

https://www.google.com/search?q=protest ... _E50ez8ycM



It is also quite striking that while germany accepts its history russiado not recognize it,

https://m.jpost.com/International/On-th ... -II-600157
 
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Francoflier
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:43 am

Seemingly, the World is slowly forgetting what happened back then.

As much as I hate Steve Bannon, I think he does have a point when he claims that Society is on an endless 80 to 100 years cycle of violence and chaos followed by peace. We just all collectively forget and revert to our primal ways... except now we've got nukes.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:59 am

olle wrote:
It is also quite striking that while germany accepts its history russiado not recognize it,

https://m.jpost.com/International/On-th ... -II-600157


Oh boy, the Russian ambassador to Israel takes the victimizing of modern-day Russia to heart.

Today one can regrettably notice how a politicized propaganda campaign sharing equal responsibility for this global catastrophe between both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union is gaining momentum. Its ultimate goal is to slander modern Russia, and doubt the legitimacy of its role in international affairs as one of the permanent members of the UN Security Council.


Russia sees itself in the great patriotic war as a victim to NAZI Germany. While it is true that they indeed lost the most people of the war in absolute numbers, they indeed are also the aggressor in the beginning of the war and the Molotow Ribbentrop agreement made it possible for NAZI Germany to concur western Europe because the NAZI war machine could be focust on that.

I disagree that the Molotow Ribbentrop agreement is one of the root causes of WWII. I think that one can be put on the victors of WWI and the nature of the Versaille treaty. The Versaille treaty was designed to put Germany down, humiliate it even. Huge payments were demanded from a broken downland, no military allowed, no national pride and a constant reminder that Germany lost the war.

In the Netherlands, we celebrate it was 75 years ago that the Netherlands started to be liberated. Although it took till May the next year to be completely NAZI free, one very harsh winter with hunger was needed for that: a bridge too far.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:00 am

Francoflier wrote:
Seemingly, the World is slowly forgetting what happened back then.

As much as I hate Steve Bannon, I think he does have a point when he claims that Society is on an endless 80 to 100 years cycle of violence and chaos followed by peace. We just all collectively forget and revert to our primal ways... except now we've got nukes.


I disagree, we have a much more integrated world, so we are more dependent on each other. This helps to work other kinds of solutions, other than war.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:16 pm

The Soviet Union/Russia has no right to speak about being a victim since they themselves turned into Nazi 2.0 with the illegal occupation of Eastern Europe after WWII.
In fact, Eastern Europe should hit Russia with a couple trillion Euro "reparations claims" for 40+ years of human rights violations.
 
tu204
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:37 pm

What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:53 pm

tu204 wrote:
What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?


I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
In fact, Eastern Europe should hit Russia with a couple trillion Euro "reparations claims" for 40+ years of human rights violations.


Welcome to try. Just like I am welcome to try demanding from you a couple thousand dollars. Doesn't mean anything is gonna happen or has any basis behind it.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Dieuwer
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?


I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.


The Soviet were the aggressors long after WWII ended. Why don't you ask the Polish, the Czech, the Hungarians, the Romanians, the Slowaks, etc.
 
tu204
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?


I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.


I am stating that because someone decided it was a/the key event in the sequence of WW2 and of course something that blames the USSR/Russia. And doesn't mention other events in that sequence (that directly led or forced the USSR to sign an agreement with Germany).
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:37 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?


I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.


The Soviet were the aggressors long after WWII ended. Why don't you ask the Polish, the Czech, the Hungarians, the Romanians, the Slowaks, etc.

Plenty lf aggressors after WW2 ended, including the USSR. The flag of the largest one is on your avatar, btw.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Armadillo1
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:54 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
The Soviet Union/Russia has no right to speak about being a victim since they themselves turned into Nazi 2.0 with the illegal occupation of Eastern Europe after WWII.
In fact, Eastern Europe should hit Russia with a couple trillion Euro "reparations claims" for 40+ years of human rights violations.

you must start to think about how many people and countries should hit US for occupations, human right violations, etc.

And how much rights YOU have NOW to speak anything about such thing.


About USSR and Nazy germany - west at that times dreams about "provoke two beast (for them) fight each other"
and the absolute goal for USSR was do not let happen war against nazy Germany with western support.

which was did after west show they dont want to ally USSR in 39. USSR really ask for that.

Poland lands (which actually polish and not taken in 1920) was returned after WW2. for 39, it just a buffer.
 
Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:13 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
What do you guys think of the Munich pact between France, Britain and Nazi Germany?


I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.


I am stating that because someone decided it was a/the key event in the sequence of WW2 and of course something that blames the USSR/Russia. And doesn't mention other events in that sequence (that directly led or forced the USSR to sign an agreement with Germany).

There is no comparison between molotow ribbentrop and Chamberlain's Munich pact.

Molotow Ribbentrop was a secret agreement to engulf and devour Poland by Germany and the Soviets; the agreement of itself was an act of aggression. The Munich agreement was the only reasonible option that Chamberlain had in his dealing with Germany; it allowed what was obvious German aggression against Czechoslovakia, but Britain had no part in that.

I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump, inevitably in an effort to silence opposition against some present day call for military action. But Chamberlain was not at all ignorant about what he was signing off on, he didn't like the circumstance Britain was in but he couldn't pretend that Britain was in capable of intervening to produce any kind of positive result. So Chamberlain did the only thing a leader of Britain could have done at that time - he stalled for more time while Britain built up her arms industry and her military. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, he was followed in office by a fellow who used Chamberlain as a goat in order to stir up public opinion to favor war with Germany.

The normally unspoken reality behind the Munich agreement, is that at that same point in time, Chamberlain was building up the British arms industry at the fastest pace possible. When Churchill "won" the Battle of Britain, he did it with planes Chamberlain built; when Churchill "won" the Battle of the Atlantic, he did it with the ships that Chamberlain built. And when the British army engaged the German army in 1940, Chamberlain was proven correct; Britain wasn't ready to take on Germany.

As if Chamberlain hasn't already been treated badly enough by "historians" now the Russians go public and try to sell the kind of lying propaganda they usually pass off internally. But all the Russians achieve when doing this is to create more discussion, to highlight even more the underhanded cynicism that was behind Stalin's entering into agreement with Hitler to divide Poland between them. And it provides the opportunity to tell who the real chump was in that episode: Stalin.
 
tu204
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:07 am

Spar wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I think you are doing another round of Whataboutism.

With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.


I am stating that because someone decided it was a/the key event in the sequence of WW2 and of course something that blames the USSR/Russia. And doesn't mention other events in that sequence (that directly led or forced the USSR to sign an agreement with Germany).

There is no comparison between molotow ribbentrop and Chamberlain's Munich pact.

Molotow Ribbentrop was a secret agreement to engulf and devour Poland by Germany and the Soviets; the agreement of itself was an act of aggression. The Munich agreement was the only reasonible option that Chamberlain had in his dealing with Germany; it allowed what was obvious German aggression against Czechoslovakia, but Britain had no part in that.

I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump, inevitably in an effort to silence opposition against some present day call for military action. But Chamberlain was not at all ignorant about what he was signing off on, he didn't like the circumstance Britain was in but he couldn't pretend that Britain was in capable of intervening to produce any kind of positive result. So Chamberlain did the only thing a leader of Britain could have done at that time - he stalled for more time while Britain built up her arms industry and her military. Unfortunately for Chamberlain, he was followed in office by a fellow who used Chamberlain as a goat in order to stir up public opinion to favor war with Germany.

The normally unspoken reality behind the Munich agreement, is that at that same point in time, Chamberlain was building up the British arms industry at the fastest pace possible. When Churchill "won" the Battle of Britain, he did it with planes Chamberlain built; when Churchill "won" the Battle of the Atlantic, he did it with the ships that Chamberlain built. And when the British army engaged the German army in 1940, Chamberlain was proven correct; Britain wasn't ready to take on Germany.

As if Chamberlain hasn't already been treated badly enough by "historians" now the Russians go public and try to sell the kind of lying propaganda they usually pass off internally. But all the Russians achieve when doing this is to create more discussion, to highlight even more the underhanded cynicism that was behind Stalin's entering into agreement with Hitler to divide Poland between them. And it provides the opportunity to tell who the real chump was in that episode: Stalin.


You miss the fact that Stalin through Foreign Minister Litvinov tried and tried to form an alliance against Hitler, but since your guys thought it more important to pit Germany and the USSR against each other, nothing came of that, then Litvinov was replaced with Molotov and there was no real choice but to deal with Germany. Then what happened, happened. Nobody in the west (or Russia for that matter) actually gives this any thought.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:44 am

tu204 wrote:
You miss the fact that Stalin through Foreign Minister Litvinov tried and tried to form an alliance against Hitler, but since your guys thought it more important to pit Germany and the USSR against each other, nothing came of that, then Litvinov was replaced with Molotov and there was no real choice but to deal with Germany. Then what happened, happened. Nobody in the west (or Russia for that matter) actually gives this any thought.
There's a problem with your version of events.

At the time (1930s) the Soviet Union was doing all it could to destroy the countries it was supposedly trying to form a pact with. Russia's whole mission back then was to engineer the downfall of everyone that was not the Soviet Union. So in the 30s, Germany and the SU were pretty much in the same category.

That "we will bury you" shtick as later articulated by Khrushchev created some blowback you know.
 
olle
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Seemingly, the World is slowly forgetting what happened back then.

As much as I hate Steve Bannon, I think he does have a point when he claims that Society is on an endless 80 to 100 years cycle of violence and chaos followed by peace. We just all collectively forget and revert to our primal ways... except now we've got nukes.


I disagree, we have a much more integrated world, so we are more dependent on each other. This helps to work other kinds of solutions, other than war.



The world and world trade 1913 was similar to late 1970s. For ones I tend to agree to both of you. Yes western countries are integrated. But mr Bannon, Trump, Putin, BoJo etc. Plays the same cards as the world leaders played 1913, and in yugoslavia eraly 1990s.

History tend to repeat itself. But yes, the world is more integrated, so smaller disruption is also needed to decrease ties berween nations.

Russia and its ex colonies for me is a pure example of the playbook 19th centory. The strong rules.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:42 am

Spar wrote:
I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump,

His place in (non-revisionist) history is well deserved.
 
olle
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:14 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Spar wrote:
I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump,

His place in (non-revisionist) history is well deserved.



At least from an European point of view.As the same way Russian empire look at break away colonies like ukraine poland, baltics as to some extent Finland UK in 1918 to 1950s had an empire falling appart as well. Uk treatment of India, kenya in this period is not to far away of Russian treatment of Finland.
 
GDB
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:36 am

This pact and grabbing Poland in the east, (leading to that infamous massacre at Katyn), also proved Nazi Germany with valuable materials to prosecute it's war. Stalin got chunks of territory and (he thought) years of safety from German attack, Hitler got his east flank secured as long as he needed and vital materials.
Which explains why Stalin refused to believe reports of the Germans massing on his borders, not from the UK, not from his own intel. Which also explains why when the invasion began against a totally unprepared USSR the 'Man Of Steel' froze, hid in his dacha for days refusing despite the dire situation to see anyone, likely having a nervous breakdown.
Only when Germany was defeated did he claim credit for winning, even over his generals.
 
Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:48 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Spar wrote:
I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump,

His place in (non-revisionist) history is well deserved.

I have to assume that you packed everything that you know into that post. I also assume that you were one of those warning not to "appease" Saddam in 2003 and warning not to "appease" Hồ Chí Minh in 1970, if you were old enough. And probably a dozen others in between.


olle wrote:
At least from an European point of view.As the same way Russian empire look at break away colonies like ukraine poland, baltics as to some extent Finland UK in 1918 to 1950s had an empire falling appart as well. Uk treatment of India, kenya in this period is not to far away of Russian treatment of Finland.

olle, I think that you should re-word that post so that it makes some sense.

Does "Russian empire" = the Soviet Union in your mind, or are you talking about the Tzar? Or Putin?
What "European point of view"? Or which "European point of view"?
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:09 am

Independent of Chamberlains intentions ( and I do think that "avoid another big war" was a bad idea), with Britain lagging in preparing for a war in Europe and France working on their immovable Marginot Line there was not much leeway beyond appeasement at the time.
( quite interesting: I once bought an english school book on then recent history, bulished in 1938: A war ahead was presented as nigh certain.)

side topic: The reconstituted Poland was extremely militaristic and went on a "mini empire" expansive spree from the get go.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:26 am

GDB wrote:
Only when Germany was defeated did he claim credit for winning, even over his generals.


yes, with massive military support from the west and . at the loss of many civilians.

The Russian rhetoric can still be heard in Ukraine, claiming that it is a NAZI regime in Kiev etc.

Russian role in WWII was a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tale at best. Russia still occupies Königsberg and part of Japan.
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Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:34 am

WIederling wrote:
Independent of Chamberlains intentions ( and I do think that "avoid another big war" was a bad idea), with Britain lagging in preparing for a war in Europe and France working on their immovable Marginot Line there was not much leeway beyond appeasement at the time.
( quite interesting: I once bought an english school book on then recent history, bulished in 1938: A war ahead was presented as nigh certain.)

side topic: The reconstituted Poland was extremely militaristic and went on a "mini empire" expansive spree from the get go.

By 1938 there was no doubt in England that there would be a war, the only possible question was if Britain could avoid involvement. At that time the military powerhouse in Europe was assumed to be France. Much is made of the Maginot Line, but in 1939 when the war started, France had more and better tanks than Germany. If they would have had competent generals they would have dominated the German army. A big problem France (and England) had was populations which were dead set against another war. The French generals would not even consider putting offensive warfare training into their regimen.

When was Poland ever extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree?
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:43 am

Spar wrote:
When was Poland ever extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree?


See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... 18_to_1945
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
With the molotow ribbentrop pact, the Soviet grabbed pieces of land/countries. No matter how you look at it, the Soviet were the aggressors at the beginning of WWII. It is a long time ago, so no need to defend what your ancestors did.

It's also the reason why I'm here, and living in the USA.

Mom and Dad were toddlers when all this went down, but both of their families independently decided to flee Lithuania as the Russians invaded.

It's no understatement to say that (native) Lithuanians have a deep enmity for Russia.

Mom and Dad ended up living WWII and beyond in refugee camps in Germany, met in a school funded by Lithuanian Americans, and independently moved to the US.

Fate was such that they ended up living 8 miles apart from each other, they restarted their friendship and went far beyond, resulting in me and my siblings.

One of my grandfather's brothers stayed behind in Lithuania for the first Russian Occupation and has some real horror stories to tell.

He was forced at gun point to join the German Army, was captured by the Soviets at the Battle of Kursk, and made to work as a slave laborer for many years after the end of WWII.

And of course Lithuanian Jews would tell real horror stories of the German Occupation, but there aren't any left to tell such stories.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it" -- Robert E. Lee
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Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:34 pm

WIederling wrote:
Spar wrote:
When was Poland ever extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree?


See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... 18_to_1945

Nothing eh?
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:39 pm

Spar wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Spar wrote:
When was Poland ever extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree?


See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... 18_to_1945

Nothing eh?


going for territorial expansion is nothing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2 ... ainian_War
Murphy is an optimist
 
Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:55 pm

WIederling wrote:
Spar wrote:


going for territorial expansion is nothing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2 ... ainian_War


Your term "extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree" is hyperbole and inaccurate. From what you've come up with, it looks like over the years Poland has challenged a few square miles of reasonably disputable land on it's borders. Compare that with the actions of Russia, the country with the largest land mass on the planet, which has gone on varying land acquisition programs over the years, including a prolonged and very militaristic attempt to rule the entire planet.
 
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:14 pm

Now we read:

Germany’s president asked for forgiveness for his country on Sunday for the suffering of the Polish people during World War Two as Poland marked 80 years since the Nazi German invasion that unleashed the deadliest conflict in human history.

And:

“As a German guest I walk before you here barefoot. I look back in gratitude to the Polish people’s fight for freedom. I bow sorrowfully before the suffering of the victim,” Steinmeier said at event later in Warsaw.

“I ask for forgiveness for Germany’s historical guilt. I profess to our lasting responsibility.”

I guess Angie lets someone else do the groveling?

Good thing he didn't go too far and offer reparations.

That's OK, Drumph cancelled and sent Pence so he could pretend to be concerned about the hurricane and still get in his rounds on the golf course.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ww2- ... SKCN1VL0TL

Spar wrote:
Your term "extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree" is hyperbole and inaccurate. From what you've come up with, it looks like over the years Poland has challenged a few square miles of reasonably disputable land on it's borders. Compare that with the actions of Russia, the country with the largest land mass on the planet, which has gone on varying land acquisition programs over the years, including a prolonged and very militaristic attempt to rule the entire planet.

Indeed Putin has no issue with expanding his empire, ask Ukraine.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:18 pm

Spar wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Spar wrote:
Nothing eh?


going for territorial expansion is nothing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2 ... ainian_War


Your term "extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree" is hyperbole and inaccurate. From what you've come up with, it looks like over the years Poland has challenged a few square miles of reasonably disputable land on it's borders.

What should I tag your position here? underbole ?
Around Lemberg the Poles behaved similar to what later the Nazis ( Pogroms ) and Soviets ( selecting out intelligentsia, interning, killing those ) did. Polish anguish and lament has something of "Krokodilstränen". i.e. it is only bad when it happens to them. Doing it to others is fully OK. Polish activity blended perfectly into the region and time.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Spar
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:27 pm

You must have been completely disheartened when the East German regime collapsed.
 
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:26 pm

WIederling wrote:
What should I tag your position here? underbole ?
Around Lemberg the Poles behaved similar to what later the Nazis ( Pogroms ) and Soviets ( selecting out intelligentsia, interning, killing those ) did. Polish anguish and lament has something of "Krokodilstränen". i.e. it is only bad when it happens to them. Doing it to others is fully OK. Polish activity blended perfectly into the region and time.

Since you're on such sound footing, care to show us were the Polish gas chambers and gulags were similar to Nazi and Soviet ones?
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Kiwirob
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Russian role in WWII was a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tale at best. Russia still occupies Königsberg and part of Japan.


Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russian role in WWII was a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tale at best. Russia still occupies Königsberg and part of Japan.


Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.

Damn Canadians need to knock down that lighthouse and leave, says I.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ted_States
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Redd
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:01 pm

WIederling wrote:
Polish anguish and lament has something of "Krokodilstränen". i.e. it is only bad when it happens to them. Doing it to others is fully OK. Polish activity blended perfectly into the region and time.



You should really just stop there.... It doesn't seem like you're qualified to be the judge of perogies let alone Polish national sentiment.

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
What should I tag your position here? underbole ?
Around Lemberg the Poles behaved similar to what later the Nazis ( Pogroms ) and Soviets ( selecting out intelligentsia, interning, killing those ) did. Polish anguish and lament has something of "Krokodilstränen". i.e. it is only bad when it happens to them. Doing it to others is fully OK. Polish activity blended perfectly into the region and time.

Since you're on such sound footing, care to show us were the Polish gas chambers and gulags were similar to Nazi and Soviet ones?


Still a sad and unfortunately often occurring German attitude towards the Poles.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russian role in WWII was a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tale at best. Russia still occupies Königsberg and part of Japan.


Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.


So? That makes it ok? Classic whataboutism.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kilopond
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:20 pm

Spar wrote:
[...]When was Poland ever extremely militaristic and on a "mini empire" expansive spree?


When they introduced the system of concentration camps in continental Europe with Bereza Kartuska being the most notorius one. Most Wikipedia articles are censored now, downplaying Polish concentration camps to "(military) prisons". Not so those in Russian and Ukrainian languages because those people belonged to the inmates.

But first of all, the Polish chauvinists had the plan to "reconquer Polish mother Earth" from the Baltic to the Black Sea, including Crimea. Czech President Emil Hacha had decided that putting his country under German protection would have clearly been the much lesser evil compared to the threatening Polish invasion.
 
olle
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:36 pm

Spar wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Spar wrote:
I've seen Chamberlain abused many times over the years, but never in this bizarre and untruthful manner. Most (right wing armchair military buffs) want to attach a label of appeaser on Chamberlain and make him look like an unknowing chump,

His place in (non-revisionist) history is well deserved.

I have to assume that you packed everything that you know into that post. I also assume that you were one of those warning not to "appease" Saddam in 2003 and warning not to "appease" Hồ Chí Minh in 1970, if you were old enough. And probably a dozen others in between.


olle wrote:
At least from an European point of view.As the same way Russian empire look at break away colonies like ukraine poland, baltics as to some extent Finland UK in 1918 to 1950s had an empire falling appart as well. Uk treatment of India, kenya in this period is not to far away of Russian treatment of Finland.

olle, I think that you should re-word that post so that it makes some sense.

Does "Russian empire" = the Soviet Union in your mind, or are you talking about the Tzar? Or Putin?
What "European point of view"? Or which "European point of view"?


Well Russia from Siberia to eastern germany 1945 to 1989 has by many been considered as an empire. But only looking the map it look like one nation. But in reality it works as an empire with central steering and many nations.

Russia as today have the same problems like UK and France had in 1950s to 1970s.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russian role in WWII was a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tale at best. Russia still occupies Königsberg and part of Japan.


Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.


So? That makes it ok? Classic whataboutism.....


Yes it does because if you're going down that rabbit hole then every country has to be taken into account, it's much better to just accept it and carry on.
 
olle
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.


So? That makes it ok? Classic whataboutism.....


Yes it does because if you're going down that rabbit hole then every country has to be taken into account, it's much better to just accept it and carry on.


Just as Ukraine still holds mayor part of Poland, Poland holds mayor parts of Germany etc ... :-)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Lots of countries are occupying parts of other countries, it happens.


So? That makes it ok? Classic whataboutism.....


Yes it does because if you're going down that rabbit hole then every country has to be taken into account, it's much better to just accept it and carry on.


No, that is whataboutism, trying to present everything as the same and therefore all is equal and everyone is hypocritical. It isn't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
....... and everyone is hypocritical. It isn't.


No. it is a select group arguing on hysterics. "Alternate Facts" and techniques from that toolbox.

Borders have been on the move over Europe ( actually over the full globe ) for ever.
Countries sprung up change shape and size, moved and vanished again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI

Where do you make the cut about what for example are Polands true borders?

Is Schleswig German, Danish or actually belongs to the Angels that now life in England?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:38 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
....... and everyone is hypocritical. It isn't.


No. it is a select group arguing on hysterics. "Alternate Facts" and techniques from that toolbox.

Borders have been on the move over Europe ( actually over the full globe ) for ever.
Countries sprung up change shape and size, moved and vanished again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9P0QSxlnI

Where do you make the cut about what for example are Polands true borders?

Is Schleswig German, Danish or actually belongs to the Angels that now life in England?


That's what I mean, you expend it to sound so ridiculous that borders are fixed in place. We agreed on the borders and unless the well-defined procedure is met, borders stay fixed. You are otherwise entering a state of war, and why would you advocate that? So unless a treaty had been signed, I will recognize the borders when the UN appeared on the stage, or better the agreed borders of 1945. That seems a good, fair and universal recognized reference point. Don't mess with other countries, don't destabilize them, don't take their territory. Simple rules to follow.
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petertenthije
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:41 am

WIederling wrote:
Is Schleswig German, Danish or actually belongs to the Angels that now life in England?

Maybe it’s fair to do a compromise between Germany, Denmark and England.

Between Germany, Denmark and England are the Netherlands. So in the interest of fairness, henceforth Schleswig will be Dutch. :D
Attamottamotta!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:46 am

petertenthije wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Is Schleswig German, Danish or actually belongs to the Angels that now life in England?

Maybe it’s fair to do a compromise between Germany, Denmark and England.

Between Germany, Denmark and England are the Netherlands. So in the interest of fairness, henceforth Schleswig will be Dutch. :D


That seems to be fair. And to add to that: Sint Petersburg has been modeled after Dutch cities, so that should be Dutch too :lol:

Long live the Dutch empire of the seventeenth century.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Don't mess with other countries, don't destabilize them, don't take their territory. Simple rules to follow.


the Danish || German border was adjusted after public polls.

See these in the polish grab for land not assigned by treaty to Poland?
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Is Schleswig German, Danish or actually belongs to the Angels that now life in England?

Maybe it’s fair to do a compromise between Germany, Denmark and England.

Between Germany, Denmark and England are the Netherlands. So in the interest of fairness, henceforth Schleswig will be Dutch. :D


That seems to be fair. And to add to that: Sint Petersburg has been modeled after Dutch cities, so that should be Dutch too :lol:

Long live the Dutch empire of the seventeenth century.


Dutch "enclave" Friedrichsstadt. in Nordfriesland.

How do we see the colonists spread over various places, "imported" by some royalty or other ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So? That makes it ok? Classic whataboutism.....


Yes it does because if you're going down that rabbit hole then every country has to be taken into account, it's much better to just accept it and carry on.


No, that is whataboutism, trying to present everything as the same and therefore all is equal and everyone is hypocritical. It isn't.


But in this case the Potsdam Agreement allowed the Soviet Union to annex Kaliningrad, a similar situation happened with Danzig now Polish Gdansk. You might also want to ask the German speaking Sourh Tyrolleans why they are part of Italy when they should be Austrian, or the Hawaiians why they are American when they were an independent country, or why the US has a chunk of Cuba, the list goes on and on.

You’re only upset because the Russians control it, if it was part of Poland like Danzig I doubt you’d give a crap.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:22 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You’re only upset because the Russians control it, if it was part of Poland like Danzig I doubt you’d give a crap.


Nope, quite a nice frame though. Konigsberg is still an anomaly of history of why it is Russian, its an exclave after all. The same way it is odd that Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish and not Morocco. Don't care either way. If everyone is fine with it, I am fine with it, why not.

You are extra touchy when it comes to Russia, not me :)
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Re: 80 years since wwll and molotow ribbentrop agreement

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:41 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
....... and everyone is hypocritical. It isn't.


No. it is a select group arguing on hysterics. "Alternate Facts" and techniques from that toolbox.

In other words, you can't show us were the Polish gas chambers and gulags were similar to Nazi and Soviet ones.

PS: Angles, not Angels...
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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