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N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:26 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Using Chicago is such a canard given 9 other cities, and most of them in red states like LA, AL, TN, and MO is far worse. In fact New aorleans is double that of Chicago. https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... -violence/


The cities that account for the gun violence in those states are anything but "red". Go to inner city New Orleans or St. Louis and ask how many of those people voted for Trump. If you can find a single person that doesn't laugh at you I'll be surprised.
 
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DL717
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:28 pm

N1611B wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Using Chicago is such a canard given 9 other cities, and most of them in red states like LA, AL, TN, and MO is far worse. In fact New aorleans is double that of Chicago. https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... -violence/


The cities that account for the gun violence in those states are anything but "red". Go to inner city New Orleans or St. Louis and ask how many of those people voted for Trump. If you can find a single person that doesn't laugh at you I'll be surprised.


True. Inner city gun violence is the vast majority of all gun crime. Then you get the occasional left or right mentally ill extremist that should be in a mental hospital that loses their shit.
Last edited by DL717 on Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:40 pm

N1611B wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

They don't have the gangs that we do, nor do they have a culture that glorifies violence, with rappers on the radio boasting about shooting people and with criminals celebrated as heroes. Combine that with a plethora of illegal firearms on the streets and you have your answer.


What a bizarre fishbowl view of the world - I strongly recommend a passport and a few trips to other developed countries - and not just the tourist zones.


I've spent years overseas, but thanks for your concern.


Doing what? By your observations you probably spent years in hotels or airport transit lounges only. Please also tell us what evidence you have that gangs, rap, and a 'culture of violence' are unique to the US and don't exist in other developed countries that import primarily American music and movies.
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MaverickM11
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:40 pm

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

If 20+ people get killed before your "good guy with a gun" steps in... that isn't solving the problem...

:roll:

He died of a self inflicted gun shot so...there goes that, but thanks NRA for 20 murdered and one suicide! Math is hard. As long as Lapierre got to keep his private jet, buy a mansion, and plaster his wife's face with makeup it's all worth it!


The shooter was an NRA member? Link?

Surely you're not that dim. I guarantee you however, he was a responsible gun owner, like all the mass shooters, and not-so-mass shooters.

N1611B wrote:
They don't have the gangs that we do, nor do they have a culture that glorifies violence, with rappers on the radio boasting about shooting people and with criminals celebrated as heroes. Combine that with a plethora of illegal firearms on the streets and you have your answer.

Are you for real?
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SanDiegoLover
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:50 pm

N1611B wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Using Chicago is such a canard given 9 other cities, and most of them in red states like LA, AL, TN, and MO is far worse. In fact New aorleans is double that of Chicago. https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... -violence/


The cities that account for the gun violence in those states are anything but "red". Go to inner city New Orleans or St. Louis and ask how many of those people voted for Trump. If you can find a single person that doesn't laugh at you I'll be surprised.


Yet funny that gun laws are largely the purview of state law, not city. As usual gun nuts love to use Chicago as an example of why gun laws don’t work because it’s a “blue” city, in a “blue” state wholly and solely to avoid honest discussion. The minute someone mentions Indiana is 20 minutes away with lax gun laws, gun nuts change the subject, deflect, defer, deny, or disappear. You act as if gun laws exist in a vacuum. But what you HAVE illustrated is that the current patchwork of gun laws simply CANNOT work as is, and massive federal overhaul of gun laws is the ONLY real solution, so thank you for that.

I just wish gun nuts would be honest for once and just admit they love blowing crap up because it’s “fun” and they don’t care one whit about the carnage they cause, because “gosh darn it, I like my guns”. That or just man up and admit having guns make you feel tough, and without them you’re afraid. None of this enlightened purpose I continually hear that’s utter bs....like being a patriot to keep the government in check.

What gets lost in all of this are stories like this one. A shooting at a high school football game on Friday. It wasn’t even front page or second page news. It was buried. 10 people were shot. TEN KIDS shot. Many still in critical condition. But because no one died, it’s too pedestrian to make front page news. https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/31/us/mobil ... index.html
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:55 pm

N1611B wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
But where were the good guys with guns? For a state that's flooded with guns, they seem to never be able to prevent these.


The shooter who killed 20+ people at a church in Texas a couple of years ago was shot by a civilian armed with an AR-15. But don't let facts ruin a good narrative.


What facts the shooter was shot after he finished his killing and was heading to his car. He later killed himself after crashing his car during a police chase.

Kelley was shot twice by a bystander when he exited the church and fled in his Sport Utility Vehicle until he crashed during a high-speed chase and died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.


But don't let facts ruin a good narrative.

He also bought his weapons legally.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:18 pm

DL717 wrote:

Put people back in the mental wards.


Absolutely. You’re right! How much are you willing to pay for that? 2% rise in your income tax? $1.00 per bullet use tax? $150 firearm annual fee? Increase your property taxes? Raising your health insurance premiums by $75 per month for expanded mental health availability?
 
ltbewr
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:33 pm

Once again, a discussion of a mass shooting terror event degenerates into a endless loop of debate over access to guns, existing gun laws, demands for more gun laws, Chicago and other cities with major levels of gun violence and murders, 2nd Amendment, blame it on President Trump or anarchist leftists, mental health and related access to care. and so on. We don't know the likely motivation of the shooter in Odessa, TX, only some basic facts of him, what happened and that the cops killed him with just reason. Hopefully in the next few days we will get something from his computer, his social media posts, from family and those around him, of if has a criminal or mental health problem records

As with major aircraft incidents and crashes, investigations bring out what happened and why, often with multiple factors in play with these mass shooting events whether it be in Odessa, in Alabama at a HS football game, or the streets of Chicago. Each have their own set of factors but for sure a culture of guns for power, control, revenge with access to powerful weapons are factors we need to change but I don't know how we can.
 
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:39 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Put people back in the mental wards.


Absolutely. You’re right! How much are you willing to pay for that? 2% rise in your income tax? $1.00 per bullet use tax? $150 firearm annual fee? Increase your property taxes? Raising your health insurance premiums by $75 per month for expanded mental health availability?


Small cost compared to incarceration and murder. The science behind the treatment of mental illness has changed dramatically since then, yet the underlying problem remains: No matter how good the science is, and it is very good for people who have what are now minor things like bipolar disorder or depression, some people simply can’t be on the street. I’d imagine it would have a significant impact on the homeless population considering about 25% of them are estimated to have severe mental illness and should be somewhere they can be taken care of properly. People need to stop shrugging this stuff off. As for the inner city who aren’t homeless? That’s just pure evil, and for the most part, we have eliminated the means to deal with that problem because some people think the humane task of sticking a needle in their arms is somehow barbaric. Maybe we need to do more of it.
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SanDiegoLover
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:48 pm

DL717 wrote:
Small cost compared to incarceration and murder. The science behind the treatment of mental illness has changed dramatically since then, yet the underlying problem remains: No matter how good the science is, and it is very good for people who have what are now minor things like bipolar disorder or depression, some people simply can’t be on the street. I’d imagine it would have a significant impact on the homeless population considering about 25% of them are estimated to have severe mental illness and should be somewhere they can be taken care of properly. People need to stop shrugging this stuff off.


Agreed. But this is never discussed by the Republicans when talking about gun violence. They decry mental health, but never offer a solution to actually pay for it, or enact legislation. How do you package a solution that the “right” could support? It requires significant change, and money. What would “sell” right leaning people and conservatives to support this?
 
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:49 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Small cost compared to incarceration and murder. The science behind the treatment of mental illness has changed dramatically since then, yet the underlying problem remains: No matter how good the science is, and it is very good for people who have what are now minor things like bipolar disorder or depression, some people simply can’t be on the street. I’d imagine it would have a significant impact on the homeless population considering about 25% of them are estimated to have severe mental illness and should be somewhere they can be taken care of properly. People need to stop shrugging this stuff off.


Agreed. But this is never discussed by the Republicans when talking about gun violence. They decry mental health, but never offer a solution to actually pay for it, or enact legislation. How do you package a solution that the “right” could support? It requires significant change, and money. What would “sell” right leaning people and conservatives to support this?


It’s never discussed by either party. Neither gives a shit. There needs to be better mental health care and some reasonable gun control, but that requires eliminating money from their coffers. This isn’t a “right” problem.
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wingman
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:18 pm

N1611B wrote:
I've spent years overseas, but thanks for your concern.


Unless it was Afghanistan, Rio or Sudan I'd wager $1000 you never read about mass shooting in any place you visited across all of your travels. The problem isn't black people, it's near zero regulation of gun and ammo production, sales and ownership. Trump can work to eliminate Browns and Blacks all day long, the mass shootings will continue on and on and on and on until something else is tried besides more guns, more thoughts and more prayers. A good start would be less prayer, fewer guns and more intelligent thought, not the kind of blatant idiocy that ignores the charts and refuses to see the one single element that makes us different from every other advanced nation on Earth....psst!, even the ones with nearly as much gun ownership per capita as the US. Whatever those countries are doing, we should try it. The best news of all is we could a whole lot of trying without ever infringing on anyone's right to own a gun. We're also guaranteed freedom of movement, doesn't mean we all get to drive 911s at 180 mph through the school drop off zone. Control, regulation, education, training and whatever the hell else places like Switzerland do would help both Texas and Chicago. It's unfortunate you think it's just because of Blacks. You'll never be part of any intelligent dialogue or solution.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:23 pm

DL717 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Small cost compared to incarceration and murder. The science behind the treatment of mental illness has changed dramatically since then, yet the underlying problem remains: No matter how good the science is, and it is very good for people who have what are now minor things like bipolar disorder or depression, some people simply can’t be on the street. I’d imagine it would have a significant impact on the homeless population considering about 25% of them are estimated to have severe mental illness and should be somewhere they can be taken care of properly. People need to stop shrugging this stuff off.


Agreed. But this is never discussed by the Republicans when talking about gun violence. They decry mental health, but never offer a solution to actually pay for it, or enact legislation. How do you package a solution that the “right” could support? It requires significant change, and money. What would “sell” right leaning people and conservatives to support this?


It’s never discussed by either party. Neither gives a shit. There needs to be better mental health care and some reasonable gun control, but that requires eliminating money from their coffers. This isn’t a “right” problem.

That is a flat out lie. Have you tried listening to the other side? More health care, reasonable gun control, less incarceration are *literally* their platform.
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Spar
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:27 pm

N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.
 
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:28 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:

Agreed. But this is never discussed by the Republicans when talking about gun violence. They decry mental health, but never offer a solution to actually pay for it, or enact legislation. How do you package a solution that the “right” could support? It requires significant change, and money. What would “sell” right leaning people and conservatives to support this?


It’s never discussed by either party. Neither gives a shit. There needs to be better mental health care and some reasonable gun control, but that requires eliminating money from their coffers. This isn’t a “right” problem.

That is a flat out lie. Have you tried listening to the other side? More health care, reasonable gun control, less incarceration are *literally* their platform.


Sure. Let me know when the left actually does something other than play politics with it like they are actually concerned about it, because they aren’t. The left dies without the impoverished voter they can drag their social programs in front of keeping them slaves to the party for votes.
Last edited by DL717 on Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:29 pm

Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


Totally explains why gun control works in Chicago. How about you help the impoverished up and out instead of keeping them down and out so they vote for you.
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Aaron747
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:35 pm

DL717 wrote:
Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


Totally explains why gun control works in Chicago. How about you help the impoverished up and out instead of keeping them down and out so they vote for you.


Tired, silly, dishonest and illogical trope - 'gun control in liberal cities has done nothing to help inner city crime' - as if no other variables exist. Seriously, it's a junior high school argument at best, and that's being charitable.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:37 pm

DL717 wrote:
Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


Totally explains why gun control works in Chicago. How about you help the impoverished up and out instead of keeping them down and out so they vote for you.

The guns come from Indiana. And Illinois still has below average gun deaths per capita versus red states thanks in part to its gun laws, *in spite* of "but ChiKaGo". Jesus Christ why are people so stupid

DL717 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

It’s never discussed by either party. Neither gives a shit. There needs to be better mental health care and some reasonable gun control, but that requires eliminating money from their coffers. This isn’t a “right” problem.

That is a flat out lie. Have you tried listening to the other side? More health care, reasonable gun control, less incarceration are *literally* their platform.


Sure. Let me know when the left actually does something other than play politics with it like they are actually concerned about it, because they aren’t. The left dies without the impoverished voter they can drag their social programs in front of keeping them slaves to the party for votes.

More lies. How would you know if they did anything? Your awareness of literally anything makes Trump look tuned in.
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Spar
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:44 pm

DL717 wrote:
Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


Totally explains why gun control works in Chicago. How about you help the impoverished up and out instead of keeping them down and out so they vote for you.

Raising Chicago as a rebuttal for the need for gun control is one of the most dishonest arguments made in modern politics. Chicago's gun problems stem from the fact that Chicago is in Illinois and Illinois is bordered by Wisconsin, Indiana, Missouri and Kentucky, all states with lax gun control laws. There is no law Chicago or the state of Illinois can pass that would cut down the number of illegal guns flowing into the Chicago area.

In the end, you have nothing to support your claim so you throw up a red herring.
 
JJJ
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:56 pm

Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.


Not to mention that then you would have to remove all the gang and inner city violence from the other countries for a fair comparison.

Most murders in Western countries are either drug/gang related or domestic violence.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:10 pm

[quote="N1611B"We should outlaw murder. Because criminals definitely follow laws. [/quote]
So you believe that there should be no lows since criminals don't follow them? That is what you are suggesting.

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:46 pm

N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

The shooter who killed 20+ people at a church in Texas a couple of years ago was shot by a civilian armed with an AR-15. But don't let facts ruin a good narrative.


One guy one time so that is proof that we need fewer gun laws.

Where was the "good guy with a gun" in Orlando, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, El Paso, Gilroy, Columbine, Lakeland, Aurora

The right loves to point to Chicago as proof that gun laws don't work but where are the good guys with guns in Chicago?


You mean all those gun-free zones?

And law-abiding CCW holders generally aren't spending their time in gang-infested areas in south Chicago. I do agree with you though that Chicago needs to make it easier for its residents to obtain CCW permits.


Alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not allowed in high schools, yet kids use those things in high schools so why bother to regulate them? That is the argument you are making. We have a problem but let's just add to the problem.

What "well regulated militia" did these mass murderers belong to?
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:54 pm

Spar wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Spar wrote:
Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


Totally explains why gun control works in Chicago. How about you help the impoverished up and out instead of keeping them down and out so they vote for you.

Raising Chicago as a rebuttal for the need for gun control is one of the most dishonest arguments made in modern politics. Chicago's gun problems stem from the fact that Chicago is in Illinois and Illinois is bordered by Wisconsin, Indiana, Missouri and Kentucky, all states with lax gun control laws. There is no law Chicago or the state of Illinois can pass that would cut down the number of illegal guns flowing into the Chicago area.

In the end, you have nothing to support your claim so you throw up a red herring.


Inner city gun control requires policing, but “Blue Isis”. Right? The left is really ding something about it. It’s not like there are all these law abiding drug dealers running around with registered guns from neighboring States. So spare the “red herring” nonsense.
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Spar
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:16 pm

DL717 wrote:
Inner city gun control requires policing, but “Blue Isis”. Right?
I don't know what your "blue Isis" remark is about, but inner city gun control requires making guns unavailable; as long as they are obtainable, they will be obtained.

DL717 wrote:
The left is really ding something about it. It’s not like there are all these law abiding drug dealers running around with registered guns from neighboring States. So spare the “red herring” nonsense.
This makes no sense other than that you don't understand that a legal gun in one state becomes an illegal gun as soon as it is carried across the state line. The whole point of my above argument was to show that nobody can do anything about the availability of guns in Chicago as long as they are freely available in the next state. What is so complicated about that? Why do you have such difficulty understanding that very simple fact, or why do you push back against that simple truth?
 
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DL717
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Spar wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Inner city gun control requires policing, but “Blue Isis”. Right?
I don't know what your "blue Isis" remark is about, but inner city gun control requires making guns unavailable; as long as they are obtainable, they will be obtained.

DL717 wrote:
The left is really ding something about it. It’s not like there are all these law abiding drug dealers running around with registered guns from neighboring States. So spare the “red herring” nonsense.
This makes no sense other than that you don't understand that a legal gun in one state becomes an illegal gun as soon as it is carried across the state line. The whole point of my above argument was to show that nobody can do anything about the availability of guns in Chicago as long as they are freely available in the next state. What is so complicated about that? Why do you have such difficulty understanding that very simple fact, or why do you push back against that simple truth?


Except of course, they aren’t buying them in the first place. Thus, resolving the problem requires policing. As for “Blue ISIS”, that’s what people have taken to calling police of late, which undermines the policing process. As do early release programs.
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Spar
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
Except of course, they aren’t buying them in the first place. Thus, resolving the problem requires policing. As for “Blue ISIS”, that’s what people have taken to calling police of late, which undermines the policing process. As do early release programs.
Who isn't buying them? The Missouri gun dealers aren't giving them away. I would imagine they trade for a good price in the inner city whether they came directly from out of state or from a burglary.

Now you want to talk about the criminal justice system and sentencing guidelines? Start a new thread where an actual discussion can take place using logic and facts instead of one liners.


Note, it is you that is calling the police “Blue ISIS” here, not me, not anyone from Chicago, just you.
 
Concierge
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Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:21 pm

There have been numerous instances lately of shooters being stopped by lawful gun owners.


I know of one - please tell us about the rest of the shooters stopped by lawful gun owners. Links would be especially appreciated - and easy for you to find.

Thanks!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:42 pm

Any word if the shooter didn't have enough Jesus or too much Fortnite in his life yet?
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Spar
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:18 pm

At Least 51 People Killed in Mass Shootings in August in the U.S.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... alone.html
 
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scbriml
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:33 pm

Spar wrote:
At Least 51 People Killed in Mass Shootings in August in the U.S.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... alone.html


Nothing to see here, move right along...
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alfa164
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:45 pm

scbriml wrote:
Spar wrote:
At Least 51 People Killed in Mass Shootings in August in the U.S.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... alone.html


Nothing to see here, move right along...


....after offering our thoughts and prayers...

:roll:
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N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:57 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

What a bizarre fishbowl view of the world - I strongly recommend a passport and a few trips to other developed countries - and not just the tourist zones.


I've spent years overseas, but thanks for your concern.


Doing what? By your observations you probably spent years in hotels or airport transit lounges only. Please also tell us what evidence you have that gangs, rap, and a 'culture of violence' are unique to the US and don't exist in other developed countries that import primarily American music and movies.


Living there. I lived in Europe and North Africa for years. The culture in, say, inner city St. Louis is much different from the culture in inner city Berlin. Guns are part of the problem but so is the glorification of violence.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:59 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
N1611B wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Using Chicago is such a canard given 9 other cities, and most of them in red states like LA, AL, TN, and MO is far worse. In fact New aorleans is double that of Chicago. https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... -violence/


The cities that account for the gun violence in those states are anything but "red". Go to inner city New Orleans or St. Louis and ask how many of those people voted for Trump. If you can find a single person that doesn't laugh at you I'll be surprised.


Yet funny that gun laws are largely the purview of state law, not city. As usual gun nuts love to use Chicago as an example of why gun laws don’t work because it’s a “blue” city, in a “blue” state wholly and solely to avoid honest discussion. The minute someone mentions Indiana is 20 minutes away with lax gun laws, gun nuts change the subject, deflect, defer, deny, or disappear. You act as if gun laws exist in a vacuum. But what you HAVE illustrated is that the current patchwork of gun laws simply CANNOT work as is, and massive federal overhaul of gun laws is the ONLY real solution, so thank you for that.

I just wish gun nuts would be honest for once and just admit they love blowing crap up because it’s “fun” and they don’t care one whit about the carnage they cause, because “gosh darn it, I like my guns”. That or just man up and admit having guns make you feel tough, and without them you’re afraid. None of this enlightened purpose I continually hear that’s utter bs....like being a patriot to keep the government in check.

What gets lost in all of this are stories like this one. A shooting at a high school football game on Friday. It wasn’t even front page or second page news. It was buried. 10 people were shot. TEN KIDS shot. Many still in critical condition. But because no one died, it’s too pedestrian to make front page news. https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/31/us/mobil ... index.html


If you are an Illinois resident who is not legally able to buy weapons in Illinois, you can't just go across the border to Indiana and buy a weapon. That's illegal.

The ten kids shot at the high school game were shot as a result of gang violence, likely with an illegal gun as 17 and 18 year olds are not old enough to legally own handguns. That's more evidence that gun control doesn't work.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:04 am

wingman wrote:
N1611B wrote:
I've spent years overseas, but thanks for your concern.


Unless it was Afghanistan, Rio or Sudan I'd wager $1000 you never read about mass shooting in any place you visited across all of your travels. The problem isn't black people, it's near zero regulation of gun and ammo production, sales and ownership. Trump can work to eliminate Browns and Blacks all day long, the mass shootings will continue on and on and on and on until something else is tried besides more guns, more thoughts and more prayers. A good start would be less prayer, fewer guns and more intelligent thought, not the kind of blatant idiocy that ignores the charts and refuses to see the one single element that makes us different from every other advanced nation on Earth....psst!, even the ones with nearly as much gun ownership per capita as the US. Whatever those countries are doing, we should try it. The best news of all is we could a whole lot of trying without ever infringing on anyone's right to own a gun. We're also guaranteed freedom of movement, doesn't mean we all get to drive 911s at 180 mph through the school drop off zone. Control, regulation, education, training and whatever the hell else places like Switzerland do would help both Texas and Chicago. It's unfortunate you think it's just because of Blacks. You'll never be part of any intelligent dialogue or solution.


You ever been to Paris? You realize that 90 people were killed in one spot there alone (the Bataclan), which dwarves the largest mass shooting in US History? How about Charlie Hebdo's staff getting executed? You also realize that AK-47s are illegal in Paris, right?
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:06 am

Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Gang and inner-city violence. Remove the urban impoverished areas from fbe equation and the USA would stack up well next to the other countries on that chart.

Where are the analysis supporting that claim? It would be easy to parse the available data to prove such a claim if it were true and I'm sure the NRA would already have done so if the numbers supported your claim.

Then behind that, is the simple fact that drastically reducing the number of guns in the US would take the guns out of the inner city "impoverished areas" anyway and that is what we all want.


The simple fact is that enforcing existing gun laws and taking guns out of the hands of criminals would cause the US murder rate to plummet, with no new gun control laws needed. As it stands, the 2nd Amendment guarantees that no politician is going to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens just because existing laws aren't enforced properly.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:07 am

seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:

One guy one time so that is proof that we need fewer gun laws.

Where was the "good guy with a gun" in Orlando, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, El Paso, Gilroy, Columbine, Lakeland, Aurora

The right loves to point to Chicago as proof that gun laws don't work but where are the good guys with guns in Chicago?


You mean all those gun-free zones?

And law-abiding CCW holders generally aren't spending their time in gang-infested areas in south Chicago. I do agree with you though that Chicago needs to make it easier for its residents to obtain CCW permits.


Alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not allowed in high schools, yet kids use those things in high schools so why bother to regulate them? That is the argument you are making. We have a problem but let's just add to the problem.

What "well regulated militia" did these mass murderers belong to?


You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Better question is, which laws currently being proposed would have prevented any of these mass shootings? None. They are all simply feel-good measures.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:10 am

Spar wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Except of course, they aren’t buying them in the first place. Thus, resolving the problem requires policing. As for “Blue ISIS”, that’s what people have taken to calling police of late, which undermines the policing process. As do early release programs.
Who isn't buying them? The Missouri gun dealers aren't giving them away. I would imagine they trade for a good price in the inner city whether they came directly from out of state or from a burglary.

Now you want to talk about the criminal justice system and sentencing guidelines? Start a new thread where an actual discussion can take place using logic and facts instead of one liners.


Note, it is you that is calling the police “Blue ISIS” here, not me, not anyone from Chicago, just you.


If gun dealers in Missouri are illegally selling guns to gangsters from Chicago, then no new laws are needed. Just enforce the laws already on the books and, problem solved.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:14 am

Concierge wrote:
There have been numerous instances lately of shooters being stopped by lawful gun owners.


I know of one - please tell us about the rest of the shooters stopped by lawful gun owners. Links would be especially appreciated - and easy for you to find.

Thanks!


More importantly, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in 2013, almost all major studies on defensive gun uses have concluded that Americans use their firearms in defense of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year, far outpacing the number of times firearms are used to harm innocent people.

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/comme ... and-dayton

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/03/14/ ... ves-ar-15/
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 14147
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:19 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Using Chicago is such a canard given 9 other cities, and most of them in red states like LA, AL, TN, and MO is far worse. In fact New aorleans is double that of Chicago. https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... -violence/


Are you intimating that the right wing zealots are creating fake news when they pound on Democratic Chicago as crime central with guns.. ;)
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22550
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:23 am

N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

You mean all those gun-free zones?

And law-abiding CCW holders generally aren't spending their time in gang-infested areas in south Chicago. I do agree with you though that Chicago needs to make it easier for its residents to obtain CCW permits.


Alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not allowed in high schools, yet kids use those things in high schools so why bother to regulate them? That is the argument you are making. We have a problem but let's just add to the problem.

What "well regulated militia" did these mass murderers belong to?


You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Better question is, which laws currently being proposed would have prevented any of these mass shootings? None. They are all simply feel-good measures.


What was the case settled by SCOTUS based on the first four words of the Second Amendment?

The only reason we can only have "feel good measures" is because the NRA bankrolled Republicans will not allow anything else.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:40 am

seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not allowed in high schools, yet kids use those things in high schools so why bother to regulate them? That is the argument you are making. We have a problem but let's just add to the problem.

What "well regulated militia" did these mass murderers belong to?


You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Better question is, which laws currently being proposed would have prevented any of these mass shootings? None. They are all simply feel-good measures.


What was the case settled by SCOTUS based on the first four words of the Second Amendment?

The only reason we can only have "feel good measures" is because the NRA bankrolled Republicans will not allow anything else.


Most recently, Heller v DC. The SCOTUS ruled that individuals have the right to own firearms and that they do not need to be in a "militia" to have that right.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:40 am

N1611B wrote:
You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Anyone who can read and understand the phrase "well regulated militia" is aware that the previous SCOTUS rulings are standing on very shaky ground.
Unless they want to quite dishonestly pretend that they don't understand the obvious.

N1611B wrote:
If gun dealers in Missouri are illegally selling guns to gangsters from Chicago, then no new laws are needed. Just enforce the laws already on the books and, problem solved.
This is being deliberately obtuse aka dishonest.
The conundrum here is not at all difficult to understand although it is possible to pretend that one doesn't understand it, as you are doing. No laws are being broken in Missouri because they have chosen to make guns freely available in their state. Illinois has no possible way of preventing guns from crossing their thousand mile plus, completely open, border. So, as long as Missouri or other states allow free access to guns in their state, they are also enabling free access to guns elsewhere in the United States, Illinois being the case in point. Thus the citizens of Chicago become victims and have to pay the price for decisions made in Missouri.

N1611B wrote:
More importantly, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in 2013, almost all major studies on defensive gun uses have concluded that Americans use their firearms in defense of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year, far outpacing the number of times firearms are used to harm innocent people.

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/comme ... and-dayton
https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/03/14/ ... ves-ar-15/

The CDC did not report in 2013 or any other year, that Americans "defend of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year". Those claims were made by an independent party that extrapolated those conclusions from CDC data in an unscientific manner and without any attempt to understand what the term "defended themselves or others" meant as used by the CDC (if the CDC even used that term). That person has withdrawn the paper that made those claims.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 8af8b7299a

Your two "sources" are both advocates for your cause of keeping the availability of guns unrestricted and you know that or should know that.

Why don't you cut all the BS and just tell us that you don't give a shit about anybody else as long as you get to pursue your hobby. Or tell us that you believe that you need your gun because someday you might want to start killing cops and National Guard troops if you come to some disagreement with the government.

Or if your reason for wanting to maintain the current carnage is something other than above, then tell us what your actual reasons are. But please cut the bullshit.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 12376
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:17 am

Spar wrote:
N1611B wrote:
You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Anyone who can read and understand the phrase "well regulated militia" is aware that the previous SCOTUS rulings are standing on very shaky ground.
Unless they want to quite dishonestly pretend that they don't understand the obvious.

N1611B wrote:
If gun dealers in Missouri are illegally selling guns to gangsters from Chicago, then no new laws are needed. Just enforce the laws already on the books and, problem solved.
This is being deliberately obtuse aka dishonest.
The conundrum here is not at all difficult to understand although it is possible to pretend that one doesn't understand it, as you are doing. No laws are being broken in Missouri because they have chosen to make guns freely available in their state. Illinois has no possible way of preventing guns from crossing their thousand mile plus, completely open, border. So, as long as Missouri or other states allow free access to guns in their state, they are also enabling free access to guns elsewhere in the United States, Illinois being the case in point. Thus the citizens of Chicago become victims and have to pay the price for decisions made in Missouri.

N1611B wrote:
More importantly, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in 2013, almost all major studies on defensive gun uses have concluded that Americans use their firearms in defense of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year, far outpacing the number of times firearms are used to harm innocent people.

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/comme ... and-dayton
https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/03/14/ ... ves-ar-15/

The CDC did not report in 2013 or any other year, that Americans "defend of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year". Those claims were made by an independent party that extrapolated those conclusions from CDC data in an unscientific manner and without any attempt to understand what the term "defended themselves or others" meant as used by the CDC (if the CDC even used that term). That person has withdrawn the paper that made those claims.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 8af8b7299a

Your two "sources" are both advocates for your cause of keeping the availability of guns unrestricted and you know that or should know that.

Why don't you cut all the BS and just tell us that you don't give a shit about anybody else as long as you get to pursue your hobby. Or tell us that you believe that you need your gun because someday you might want to start killing cops and National Guard troops if you come to some disagreement with the government.

Or if your reason for wanting to maintain the current carnage is something other than above, then tell us what your actual reasons are. But please cut the bullshit.


These people don’t even care if information came from a retracted source - facts, data science, and processes mean nothing to them. It’s all about feels and emotion - their own - and nothing else. Not what’s real, not what’s good for other people or society, nada mas.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Spar
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
These people don’t even care if information came from a retracted source - facts, data science, and processes mean nothing to them. It’s all about feels and emotion - their own - and nothing else. Not what’s real, not what’s good for other people or society, nada mas.

Exactly, so I want this one to put his cards on the table.

I have no interest in going around in circles just to entertain him.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:39 am

Spar wrote:
You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.
Anyone who can read and understand the phrase "well regulated militia" is aware that the previous SCOTUS rulings are standing on very shaky ground.
Unless they want to quite dishonestly pretend that they don't understand the obvious.


No one seriously believes that the right to own firearms is on shaky ground. Additionally, even if it somehow was on shaky ground (which it isn't), the SCOTUS will be right-leaning for the forseeable future.

Spar wrote:
If gun dealers in Missouri are illegally selling guns to gangsters from Chicago, then no new laws are needed. Just enforce the laws already on the books and, problem solved.

This is being deliberately obtuse aka dishonest.
The conundrum here is not at all difficult to understand although it is possible to pretend that one doesn't understand it, as you are doing. No laws are being broken in Missouri because they have chosen to make guns freely available in their state. Illinois has no possible way of preventing guns from crossing their thousand mile plus, completely open, border. So, as long as Missouri or other states allow free access to guns in their state, they are also enabling free access to guns elsewhere in the United States, Illinois being the case in point. Thus the citizens of Chicago become victims and have to pay the price for decisions made in Missouri.


If you can't pass a background check in Chicago, you aren't going to pass a background check in Missouri. The issue isn't that gun shops in Missouri are selling guns to felons and gang bangers from Chicago-they aren't. The issue is that criminals in Chicago are buying guns on the black market. This trade can be combatted using existing laws, as it is already illegal to buy a firearm and then give that firearm to someone who is not allowed to own one.

Spar wrote:
More importantly, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in 2013, almost all major studies on defensive gun uses have concluded that Americans use their firearms in defense of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year, far outpacing the number of times firearms are used to harm innocent people.

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/comme ... and-dayton
https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/03/14/ ... ves-ar-15/
The CDC did not report in 2013 or any other year, that Americans "defend of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year". Those claims were made by an independent party that extrapolated those conclusions from CDC data in an unscientific manner and without any attempt to understand what the term "defended themselves or others" meant as used by the CDC (if the CDC even used that term). That person has withdrawn the paper that made those claims.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 8af8b7299a

Your two "sources" are both advocates for your cause of keeping the availability of guns unrestricted and you know that or should know that.

Why don't you cut all the BS and just tell us that you don't give a shit about anybody else as long as you get to pursue your hobby. Or tell us that you believe that you need your gun because someday you might want to start killing cops and National Guard troops if you come to some disagreement with the government.

Or if your reason for wanting to maintain the current carnage is something other than above, then tell us what your actual reasons are. But please cut the bullshit.


I don't shoot as a hobby. I own firearms solely for personal protection. I work in emergency services, and I know that when seconds count the police are minutes (or even longer) away. My protection and my family's protection is my responsibility.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:56 am

*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on
average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.


Source: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

Don't worry, people. Spar will be along shortly to tell us about how those 266,000 people were all criminals and deserved to be assaulted, raped, etc. After all, bad things never happen to good people. Right, Spar?
 
Spar
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:56 am

Most of those burglaries occurred when no one was home right? So if those people owned guns, guess what, now we have an unregistered gun in the hands of a criminal. How does that affect you and your families safety?

Then there is the fact that living in a house with a gun increases your odds of death.
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/1814 ... systematic

You are safer without your gun and the nation is safer without you having a gun, if you think having a gun makes you safer, you're wrong. You'd be better off spending your money elsewhere if you want increased security.
 
Concierge
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:01 am

N1611B wrote:
Concierge wrote:
There have been numerous instances lately of shooters being stopped by lawful gun owners.


I know of one - please tell us about the rest of the shooters stopped by lawful gun owners. Links would be especially appreciated - and easy for you to find.

Thanks!


More importantly, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in 2013, almost all major studies on defensive gun uses have concluded that Americans use their firearms in defense of themselves or others between 500,000 and 3 million times every year, far outpacing the number of times firearms are used to harm innocent people.

https://www.heritage.org/firearms/comme ... and-dayton

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/03/14/ ... ves-ar-15/


Well, No. I see another poster explained it - you didn't counter.

You're within your rights to have a gun, I don't want one based on facts like this:

'Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that living in a home where there are guns increased risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%.

Quoted and correctly sourced,here, with a number of other studies:
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/guns-in-the-homesafe-storage-statistics/
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22550
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:01 am

N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

You don't need to belong to a militia to own a firearm. That argument had long been settled by the SCOTUS.

Better question is, which laws currently being proposed would have prevented any of these mass shootings? None. They are all simply feel-good measures.


What was the case settled by SCOTUS based on the first four words of the Second Amendment?

The only reason we can only have "feel good measures" is because the NRA bankrolled Republicans will not allow anything else.


Most recently, Heller v DC. The SCOTUS ruled that individuals have the right to own firearms and that they do not need to be in a "militia" to have that right.


So the NRA appointed majority decided the last four words are the only ones that matter. Got it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12974
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Texas Special

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:05 am

N1611B wrote:
wingman wrote:
N1611B wrote:
I've spent years overseas, but thanks for your concern.


Unless it was Afghanistan, Rio or Sudan I'd wager $1000 you never read about mass shooting in any place you visited across all of your travels. The problem isn't black people, it's near zero regulation of gun and ammo production, sales and ownership. Trump can work to eliminate Browns and Blacks all day long, the mass shootings will continue on and on and on and on until something else is tried besides more guns, more thoughts and more prayers. A good start would be less prayer, fewer guns and more intelligent thought, not the kind of blatant idiocy that ignores the charts and refuses to see the one single element that makes us different from every other advanced nation on Earth....psst!, even the ones with nearly as much gun ownership per capita as the US. Whatever those countries are doing, we should try it. The best news of all is we could a whole lot of trying without ever infringing on anyone's right to own a gun. We're also guaranteed freedom of movement, doesn't mean we all get to drive 911s at 180 mph through the school drop off zone. Control, regulation, education, training and whatever the hell else places like Switzerland do would help both Texas and Chicago. It's unfortunate you think it's just because of Blacks. You'll never be part of any intelligent dialogue or solution.


You ever been to Paris? You realize that 90 people were killed in one spot there alone (the Bataclan), which dwarves the largest mass shooting in US History? How about Charlie Hebdo's staff getting executed? You also realize that AK-47s are illegal in Paris, right?


You can't compare a full blown terror attack with multiple perpetrators to any mass killing incident in the US.
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