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2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:31 pm

extender wrote:
Ain't gonna happen.


Behold, the facts with which the ultra-conservative come to the table with. "Ain't gonna happen."
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:34 pm

Ah, the labels, how would you know if I am an ultra-conservative or a libertarian? You don't. You assume too much, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:39 pm

extender wrote:
They are not going anywhere. Period.

Laws don't mean a thing to people. The Beto Supporter failed background checks. Laws don't mean anything to those intent on doing harm.

Yah that's not supported by any data whatsoever. But I am confident you aren't interested in data whatsoever either.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:41 pm

extender wrote:
how would you know if I am an ultra-conservative or a libertarian?


Very little difference these days. Doesn't change my point either way. Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work and overwhelming public support to expand background checks and close private sales loopholes, you ultra-conservative/libertarian/tea-party/stay-off-my-lawn-ers will bury your heads in the sand. "Ain't gonna happen" you'll say to the family of a victim of gun violence. "Ain't gonna happen" you'll say to yet another community reeling for the effects of gun violence.

Should we be responsible as a nation and at least make an effort to end the uniquely American epidemic?

"ain't gonna happen...."
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:50 pm

2122M wrote:
Very little difference these days. Doesn't change my point either way. Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work and overwhelming public support to expand background checks and close private sales loopholes..


How is that working in Chicago, DC and Baltimore? They don't, so your argument just went into the honey bucket
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:04 pm

Keep running on emotions and irrational thoughts. Something else to throw into the equation:

For starters, a 2018 working paper suggested that intense media coverage of mass shootings is actually perpetuating them. Economists Jay Walker and Michael Jetter wanted to better understand the motives of mass shootings. They explored a three-year data set (Jan. 1, 2013 to June 23, 2016), and their findings suggest "a positive and statistically significant effect of media coverage dedicated to shootings on the number of shootings in the subsequent week."

Link


Although, I cant expect much, some of you believe Trump colluded with Russians and Hillary did nothing wrong.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:06 pm

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
Very little difference these days. Doesn't change my point either way. Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work and overwhelming public support to expand background checks and close private sales loopholes..


How is that working in Chicago, DC and Baltimore? They don't, so your argument just went into the honey bucket


Chicago is 45 minutes from Indiana and an hour for Wisconsin. What are their gun laws like? How about DC and Baltimore? Just a stones throw from Virginia's relatively lax state gun laws.

Gun laws need to be federally enforced, otherwise they are worth less than the paper they are written on.
 
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seb146
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:09 pm

Neighbors are now saying this shooter was aggressive and angry and regularly shot guns at all hours.

https://www.yourbasin.com/news/local-ne ... g-we-know/

We have red flags but can't do anything about it because guns are the single most important thing. Or something.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:18 pm

extender wrote:
Ah, the labels, how would you know if I am an ultra-conservative or a libertarian? You don't. You assume too much, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Either way, there's 95% chance you're an old white man. 98% if you're "libertarian". How'd I do.

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
Very little difference these days. Doesn't change my point either way. Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work and overwhelming public support to expand background checks and close private sales loopholes..


How is that working in Chicago, DC and Baltimore? They don't, so your argument just went into the honey bucket

Even with Chicago, the gun death rate in Illinois is lower than its surrounding red states WHERE ALL THE GUNS COME FROM. But again, your only interest in squawking "but chicago!" is reminding everyone what you really mean. If you libertarians :roll: /ultra conservatives were right about more guns = more safety, wouldn't Chicago/Baltimore/DC be super safe? Why are they not with all those guns? Not enough Jesus? Why do gun deaths correlate strongly with gun ownership? Coincidence? You want to go back, fix your argument, or try another one?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MSPNWA
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:20 pm

2122M wrote:
Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work


Can you share with us that mountain that shows "basic" gun control measures work?

2122M wrote:
Should we be responsible as a nation and at least make an effort to end the uniquely American epidemic?


Not if that effort is completely misplaced - ineffective at its goal and only effective at stripping away freedoms.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:24 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work


Can you share with us that mountain that shows "basic" gun control measures work?

2122M wrote:
Should we be responsible as a nation and at least make an effort to end the uniquely American epidemic?


Not if that effort is completely misplaced - ineffective at its goal and only effective at stripping away freedoms.


National gun registry, insurance requirements, universal background checks, allowing the CDC to study gun violence as a public health issue.....

None of the measures prohibit the ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens, would you give them a shot in a effort to save lives?
 
 
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seb146
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:33 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work


Can you share with us that mountain that shows "basic" gun control measures work?


Every time anyone tries to do anything other than "thoughts and prayers" and "safe spaces" there is a yuge right wing backlash with people screaming "DON'T TAKE MY GUNS!!!!" so we can not find out.

I have lived without guns, therefore, the entire country can do it. See how silly that sounds? Just as silly as "but CHICAGO!" or "but BALTIMORE!" or "but DC!" City laws are different than state laws. IIRC, ammunition is banned in Berkeley, yet that did not stop the Gilroy shooter.

oh, that's right.... he went to a neighboring state with lax gun laws.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:05 pm

2122M wrote:
Chicago is 45 minutes from Indiana and an hour for Wisconsin. What are their gun laws like? How about DC and Baltimore? Just a stones throw from Virginia's relatively lax state gun laws.


Lame excuse, and that is why you have to deflect; the data does not support your argument.

2122M wrote:
Gun laws need to be federally enforced, otherwise they are worth less than the paper they are written on.


Maybe you too can get a pardon, as Richard Reid did. Look him up.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:14 pm

extender wrote:
Lame excuse, and that is why you have to deflect; the data does not support your argument.


Elaborate please. Why is that a lame excuse?
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:17 pm

extender wrote:
Maybe you too can get a pardon, as Richard Reid did. Look him up.


The shoe bomber? Not sure he received a pardon. 100% positive its irrelevant to this conversation and a truly odd thing to bring up.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:18 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Lame excuse, and that is why you have to deflect; the data does not support your argument.


Elaborate please. Why is that a lame excuse?


States with lax laws are next door. That lame excuse. Lame. Like the liberal loon, Lightfoot, blames it on republicans. Gun control doesn't work. You just cannot accept it.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:19 pm

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Lame excuse, and that is why you have to deflect; the data does not support your argument.


Elaborate please. Why is that a lame excuse?


States with lax laws are next door. That lame excuse. Lame. Like the liberal loon, Lightfoot, blames it on republicans. Gun control doesn't work. You just cannot accept it.


Why is it 'lame'. What, in your mind, invalidates that argument?
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:23 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Maybe you too can get a pardon, as Richard Reid did. Look him up.


The shoe bomber? Not sure he received a pardon. 100% positive its irrelevant to this conversation and a truly odd thing to bring up.


Google Richard Reid, Gun Felon, Obama Pardon. Relevant or not? Sure it is. Try again.

Richard D. Reid – Wilmington, Del.

Offense: Felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition (five counts); possession of a firearm in furtherance of a drug trafficking offense; possession with intent to distribute more than 50 grams of a cocaine base (crack); possession with the intent to distribute cocaine; possession of crack cocaine; possession of marijuana; District of Delaware


Link

What good are gun laws if they get commuted? Relevant now?
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:32 pm

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Maybe you too can get a pardon, as Richard Reid did. Look him up.


The shoe bomber? Not sure he received a pardon. 100% positive its irrelevant to this conversation and a truly odd thing to bring up.


Google Richard Reid, Gun Felon, Obama Pardon. Relevant or not? Sure it is. Try again.

Richard D. Reid – Wilmington, Del.

Offense: Felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition (five counts); possession of a firearm in furtherance of a drug trafficking offense; possession with intent to distribute more than 50 grams of a cocaine base (crack); possession with the intent to distribute cocaine; possession of crack cocaine; possession of marijuana; District of Delaware


Link

What good are gun laws if they get commuted? Relevant now?


Not relevant to the larger discussion, no. A nice sidetrack on your part though. Only found one site commenting on this specific case, and it wasn't a pardon. He commuted the sentence due to time already served. Part of his overall push to recognize what crimes deserve what kinds of punishment I believe.

That being said, if it makes you happy, I promise not to vote for Obama in 2020.

Now getting back to business, why is the state law loophole a 'lame' excuse for gun violence in cities with strict gun control laws?
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:40 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
Very little difference these days. Doesn't change my point either way. Against a mountain of evidence that basic gun control measures work and overwhelming public support to expand background checks and close private sales loopholes..


How is that working in Chicago, DC and Baltimore? They don't, so your argument just went into the honey bucket


Chicago is 45 minutes from Indiana and an hour for Wisconsin. What are their gun laws like? How about DC and Baltimore? Just a stones throw from Virginia's relatively lax state gun laws.

Gun laws need to be federally enforced, otherwise they are worth less than the paper they are written on.


Once again, if you can't buy a handgun in Chicago, you can't buy one in Wisconsin or Indiana. It is illegal to do so. Your argument is irrelevant.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Ok tough guy...Irrelevant one post, deflect the next...
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:41 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
2122M wrote:

Elaborate please. Why is that a lame excuse?


States with lax laws are next door. That lame excuse. Lame. Like the liberal loon, Lightfoot, blames it on republicans. Gun control doesn't work. You just cannot accept it.


Why is it 'lame'. What, in your mind, invalidates that argument?


The law. Chicago residents who are barred from buying handguns in Chicago cannot go to a different state and purchase a handgun. It is already illegal to do so.
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:44 pm

Saw on the news this morning that the Odessa shooter was not eligible to own a firearm. Once again, the gun laws aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Instead of worrying about new laws, how about worrying about enforcing the ones that are already on the books?
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:46 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
extender wrote:

How is that working in Chicago, DC and Baltimore? They don't, so your argument just went into the honey bucket


Chicago is 45 minutes from Indiana and an hour for Wisconsin. What are their gun laws like? How about DC and Baltimore? Just a stones throw from Virginia's relatively lax state gun laws.

Gun laws need to be federally enforced, otherwise they are worth less than the paper they are written on.


Once again, if you can't buy a handgun in Chicago, you can't buy one in Wisconsin or Indiana. It is illegal to do so. Your argument is irrelevant.


A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:46 pm

N1611B wrote:
Saw on the news this morning that the Odessa shooter was not eligible to own a firearm. Once again, the gun laws aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Instead of worrying about new laws, how about worrying about enforcing the ones that are already on the books?


It will be interesting to see how he got one then. Private sale? Gun show?
 
StarAC17
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Re: The Texas Special

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:48 pm

N1611B wrote:
Ken777 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Texas is a very large, very populous state. California has also had many high-profile mass shootings despite its incredibly restrictive gun laws. California is also a very large, very populous state. The shootings have more to do with population than they have to do with gun laws.


We have far more killings simply because we have far more guns. Every other civilized country has as many mental freaks as we do, but their death by gun rate is a small fraction of ours because there are not that many guns in the hands of the nuts.

We are also in that horrid position of our politicians being terrified of the NRA and therefore lack the courage to pass sane laws. What ever happened to the law banning bump stocks? That's a simple example of political fear. And maybe even bribes - er, campaign contributions and educational trips.


Bump stocks have already been banned.

We have more mass shootings because we are more populous than the rest of the western world. Most gun violence in the US is gang or drug related. More people are murdered with blunt objects in the US than are killed with rifles of any kind. Perhaps it is time to ban hammers?


If you take into the population in any civilized country even per-capita the amount of gun deaths are far lower than the US. Canada has about 1/10 the US population and has about 1/100 the amount of gun murders that the US does. That rate gets lower if you look at Australia, Europe or Japan.

If you regulated guns like cars the US death rate would plummet. Or do whatever the Swiss do, they have a lot of guns in civilian hands but don't have the problems that the US does with gun violence. The reason is that aptitude and character are factors in deciding if you should have a gun in Switzerland. In Canada the licensing boards ask for character references and specifically ask they person if they were coerced or are under duress when providing their answers on whether the prospective gun owner should own a gun. It largely works and a lot of the gun issues in Canada are because of trafficked firearms smuggled into Canada from the US.

ltbewr wrote:
As to the Odessa mass shooter, there seems to be no real reason that has come out but for that he was recently fired from his job, but he got access to a weapon designed originally for military use and used it to kill and injure many people. The police held back the name of the shooter so not to give them any attention for their 'cause', the same attention that some say is why these events occur. They eventually released it as it is a public record. Not much as been said either as to if the gun used was legally purchased or acquired, In several recent mass shooting cases, the guns used were legally acquired although some had illegal modifications.

Let us also not forget that guns are not the only weapon used in mass death events. A truck driven into a crowd (Near the WTC on Oct. 31, 2017), a car with a bomb in it (numerous in Europe, OKC), a knife or sword (most recently near Lyon, France), airplanes (9/11).


I think it came out that he actually failed a background check. If that came out the police are probably investigating how he got the guns to begin with and to see if he purchased the firearm privately or at a gun show (both I think are legal in Texas without a background check but could be mistaken) or it was illegally obtained. Withholding the shooters name makes it easier to investigate with all the media covering this.

N1611B wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
N1611B wrote:

It is better than 30+ people dead. Most mass shooters kill themselves or surrender as soon as they meet armed resistance.


But far worse than 0 dead, which tends to be the case for countries with regulations for guns. If a mass shooting starts in the first place, the prevention is already a failure. It is no coincidence that the only developed country to have such high death rates from guns and the only one with such regular mass shootings is the one with the most lax rules on owning guns. You may not choose to see it, but it is simple fact. The 'reasons' listed for why they happen so regularly also hold true for other countries, but they do not have even remotely the same amount of deaths and injuries. Why?


There's no preventing these shootings. I already used Paris as an example. 100+ people dead there in mass shootings in a place where AK-47s are already outlawed. None of the current proposals would eliminate or even reduce mass shootings. The best prevention is preparation.


You can use Paris as an example as that shooting was horrible and an act of Terror. However that attack happened almost four years ago and no major gun violence has struck the city since.

einsteinboricua wrote:
N1611B wrote:
The shooter who killed 20+ people at a church in Texas a couple of years ago was shot by a civilian armed with an AR-15. But don't let facts ruin a good narrative.

Those facts are irrelevant since:
1. The guy wasn't deterred from shooting (you know...because if a bad guy with a gun sees a good guy with a gun, he'll think twice, or something like that)
2. At least 20 people were shot BEFORE that shooter was taken down.

The NRA narrative is that "good guys with guns stop shootings" and that "more guns make us safe", so either the narrative is false and neither of the two options work or people allow themselves to be shot. Because I have never seen someone willingly want to be shot at, I'll go with the former.

In your own words, don't let facts ruin a good narrative.


In El Paso and many other shootings those who are armed realize that if I pull out my gun to stop the shooter another person is going to think they are the shooter and so on and then it becomes multiple more times worse.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:50 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

Chicago is 45 minutes from Indiana and an hour for Wisconsin. What are their gun laws like? How about DC and Baltimore? Just a stones throw from Virginia's relatively lax state gun laws.

Gun laws need to be federally enforced, otherwise they are worth less than the paper they are written on.


Once again, if you can't buy a handgun in Chicago, you can't buy one in Wisconsin or Indiana. It is illegal to do so. Your argument is irrelevant.


A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...


A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:51 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Saw on the news this morning that the Odessa shooter was not eligible to own a firearm. Once again, the gun laws aren't the problem. Enforcement is. Instead of worrying about new laws, how about worrying about enforcing the ones that are already on the books?


It will be interesting to see how he got one then. Private sale? Gun show?


I'm sure the ATF will be all over it.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:54 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Once again, if you can't buy a handgun in Chicago, you can't buy one in Wisconsin or Indiana. It is illegal to do so. Your argument is irrelevant.


A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...


A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


But all you need is a buddy with a residence in Indiana. They can buy, buy, buy all they want, drive 45 minutes to Chicago and hand them out like peanuts on Southwest Airlines.

Now, if the buyer was required to register that gun on a federal gun registry, then he would know that any crimes committed with that weapon would be traced directly to him and he might be less inclined to supply guns to criminals.

Just a thought.
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:58 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...


A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


But all you need is a buddy with a residence in Indiana. They can buy, buy, buy all they want, drive 45 minutes to Chicago and hand them out like peanuts on Southwest Airlines.

Now, if the buyer was required to register that gun on a federal gun registry, then he would know that any crimes committed with that weapon would be traced directly to him and he might be less inclined to supply guns to criminals.

Just a thought.


That's already illegal, though. The buddy in this case would be facing felony charges for supplying firearms to people who are not allowed to own them. Once again, better enforcement of existing laws is needed before we worry about making new ones.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:05 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


But all you need is a buddy with a residence in Indiana. They can buy, buy, buy all they want, drive 45 minutes to Chicago and hand them out like peanuts on Southwest Airlines.

Now, if the buyer was required to register that gun on a federal gun registry, then he would know that any crimes committed with that weapon would be traced directly to him and he might be less inclined to supply guns to criminals.

Just a thought.


That's already illegal, though. The buddy in this case would be facing felony charges for supplying firearms to people who are not allowed to own them. Once again, better enforcement of existing laws is needed before we worry about making new ones.


OK, great, I agree with you on this. So how do we create a mechanism to make these kinds of laws enforceable?

Lets agree that its always going to be impossible to prevent two people to meet in somewhere to exchange a weapon. So what I'm suggesting is a gun registry (and spare me the slippery slope argument)

If you are required to register a gun just like you are required to register a car, then that gun is legally your responsibility. If anything happens with that weapon (and the weapon is recovered of course) the authorities go directly to you and hold you liable. That way, if a gun owner wants to sell that gun to a new owner, he or she will have to formally transfer the title to the new owner. And in order for a title transfer to occur, a background check must be completed. All of this can be administered in exactly the same way a private car sale is administered. This just adds a level of accountability to gun ownership and in no way infringes on the right to bear arms, assuming you are a law abiding citizen of course.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Texas Special

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:07 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
In El Paso and many other shootings those who are armed realize that if I pull out my gun to stop the shooter another person is going to think they are the shooter and so on and then it becomes multiple more times worse.

The NRA is missing a sales opportunity. They could market the NRA sanctioned "Good Guy with a Gun" badge so that way we know who the good guy with a gun is...unless someone with the badge IS the actual shooter...oh...I see...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
N1611B
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:08 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

But all you need is a buddy with a residence in Indiana. They can buy, buy, buy all they want, drive 45 minutes to Chicago and hand them out like peanuts on Southwest Airlines.

Now, if the buyer was required to register that gun on a federal gun registry, then he would know that any crimes committed with that weapon would be traced directly to him and he might be less inclined to supply guns to criminals.

Just a thought.


That's already illegal, though. The buddy in this case would be facing felony charges for supplying firearms to people who are not allowed to own them. Once again, better enforcement of existing laws is needed before we worry about making new ones.


OK, great, I agree with you on this. So how do we create a mechanism to make these kinds of laws enforceable?

Lets agree that its always going to be impossible to prevent two people to meet in somewhere to exchange a weapon. So what I'm suggesting is a gun registry (and spare me the slippery slope argument)

If you are required to register a gun just like you are required to register a car, then that gun is legally your responsibility. If anything happens with that weapon (and the weapon is recovered of course) the authorities go directly to you and hold you liable. That way, if a gun owner wants to sell that gun to a new owner, he or she will have to formally transfer the title to the new owner. And in order for a title transfer to occur, a background check must be completed. All of this can be administered in exactly the same way a private car sale is administered. This just adds a level of accountability to gun ownership and in no way infringes on the right to bear arms, assuming you are a law abiding citizen of course.


I have no problem with that.
 
N1611B
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Re: The Texas Special

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:09 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
In El Paso and many other shootings those who are armed realize that if I pull out my gun to stop the shooter another person is going to think they are the shooter and so on and then it becomes multiple more times worse.

The NRA is missing a sales opportunity. They could market the NRA sanctioned "Good Guy with a Gun" badge so that way we know who the good guy with a gun is...unless someone with the badge IS the actual shooter...oh...I see...


An NRA member has never committed a mass shooting.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:14 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

That's already illegal, though. The buddy in this case would be facing felony charges for supplying firearms to people who are not allowed to own them. Once again, better enforcement of existing laws is needed before we worry about making new ones.


OK, great, I agree with you on this. So how do we create a mechanism to make these kinds of laws enforceable?

Lets agree that its always going to be impossible to prevent two people to meet in somewhere to exchange a weapon. So what I'm suggesting is a gun registry (and spare me the slippery slope argument)

If you are required to register a gun just like you are required to register a car, then that gun is legally your responsibility. If anything happens with that weapon (and the weapon is recovered of course) the authorities go directly to you and hold you liable. That way, if a gun owner wants to sell that gun to a new owner, he or she will have to formally transfer the title to the new owner. And in order for a title transfer to occur, a background check must be completed. All of this can be administered in exactly the same way a private car sale is administered. This just adds a level of accountability to gun ownership and in no way infringes on the right to bear arms, assuming you are a law abiding citizen of course.


I have no problem with that.


Great. So that would require action in congress. New rules and regulations and I think would have the overwhelming support of American's. Shouldn't the NRA want to throw its full support behind something like this?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Texas Special

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:25 pm

N1611B wrote:
An NRA member has never committed a mass shooting.

All the more reason to sell NRA-sanctions "Good Guy with a Gun" badge, to be displayed at all times.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:30 pm

2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

OK, great, I agree with you on this. So how do we create a mechanism to make these kinds of laws enforceable?

Lets agree that its always going to be impossible to prevent two people to meet in somewhere to exchange a weapon. So what I'm suggesting is a gun registry (and spare me the slippery slope argument)

If you are required to register a gun just like you are required to register a car, then that gun is legally your responsibility. If anything happens with that weapon (and the weapon is recovered of course) the authorities go directly to you and hold you liable. That way, if a gun owner wants to sell that gun to a new owner, he or she will have to formally transfer the title to the new owner. And in order for a title transfer to occur, a background check must be completed. All of this can be administered in exactly the same way a private car sale is administered. This just adds a level of accountability to gun ownership and in no way infringes on the right to bear arms, assuming you are a law abiding citizen of course.


I have no problem with that.


Great. So that would require action in congress. New rules and regulations and I think would have the overwhelming support of American's. Shouldn't the NRA want to throw its full support behind something like this?


I can understand why the NRA would have a problem with it. The information would likely be public record. There was a newspaper not too long ago that obtained information about local CCW holders and published their named and home addresses for anyone to see. If the information was kept 100% confidential, the NRA would likely be more inclined to support such requirements.
 
JJJ
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:53 pm

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

I have no problem with that.


Great. So that would require action in congress. New rules and regulations and I think would have the overwhelming support of American's. Shouldn't the NRA want to throw its full support behind something like this?


I can understand why the NRA would have a problem with it. The information would likely be public record. There was a newspaper not too long ago that obtained information about local CCW holders and published their named and home addresses for anyone to see. If the information was kept 100% confidential, the NRA would likely be more inclined to support such requirements.


The way it's done around here, the gun itself has an ID (which records the present as well as past owners) and the private transaction is done at the local Police stations with a gun registration office who are the ones doing due diligence.

If you want to sell it to someone out of town you deposit the gun at your local police station, and then is sent for pickup at the police station of the buyers choice.

If you sell it to a licensed dealer, then it's the shop doing all the paperwork with the police so the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a gun you don't want is at your local store, OTOH they tend to pay maybe half of what you'd get on a private sale (them being a business and all that).
 
StarAC17
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:56 pm

texdravid wrote:
N1611B wrote:
texdravid wrote:
No one on these boards is more conservative as me, and I have been here 15 years. However, let's be real.
America is too violent, immature, and too broken of a society to have this kind of free access to guns. True, people will start using knives, hammers and other objects as weapons, but nothing kills as thoroughly, quickly, and in huge numbers as guns.

Others have violently disagreed with me, but the USA is in the midst of a slow motion civil war. The liberals have failed their inner cities and its basically an urban jungle similar to Somalia, with apologies to Somalia. The unhappy and violent American black/hispanic communities have failed themselves in an orgy of violence, self-hatred, and grievance.

The conservatives have failed their rural areas, and poor whites have failed themselves in an orgy of drug abuse (meth), ignorance, poor education, and obesity.

The US is a sewer of NEARLY EVERYONE being an abject loser. You have a tiny minority within a greater society of 330+ million following the rules, taking care of themselves and their families, educating themselves, striving to work hard, on time, and every day, and keeping their noses clean of violence and substance abuse.

Everyone else is a train wreck. Both sides. Both whites and minorities. Sometimes stereotypes are true. You go to a city like my hometown like the DFW area. You have my fellow Indians kicking ass and becoming successes and working harder than you can possibly imagine. Within 3 years, these guys go from a small one bedroom apartment to a big mansion with multiple cars and etc. Why? Because they do the things that Americans of all stripes don't do.

When you have 75% at least being losers in America, how the hell can these 75% be trusted with any weapons more than a Nerf gun or BB gun?
Their loser lives mean nothing to them or their friends or family members. This leads to uncontrolled violence, whether its in white Odessa or black Chicago or hispanic Miami.

It's time, America, well past time, to admit that America cannot handle their 2nd amendment rights and make guns hard as hell to get and keep.


Sorry, but we're not going to shred the constitution just because you think you are better than everybody else.



Being absolute on a topic is what liberals do. See abortion. Those fools are absolutists on that depravity.

Nuance counts. So don’t be absolute on guns. We are better than that.

On this Odessa shootings incident, this idiot got fired and then got his modified military gun and started shooting. People that wired up don’t just turn that way overnight. There was a history of violence and skullduggery in his past. If getting and maintaining a gun was very difficult, it would not have happened.

Oh, and for fairness, any gangbanger in Chicago with an unauthorized gun would face severe, real punishment. How’s 50 years to life sound in a harsh, hellish jail with no rights other than bread and water.

We need along with gun control more prisons and all should be like the supermax in Colorado.

And yes, my hard work, frugality, and intelligence and discipline DOES make me better than most friggin American losers of all stripes. Fact.


You are onto something with the winner and loser society that the US has become. All societies are like that in some way but what a lot of western nations have absent is a sense of community outside of perhaps work and they are lost human beings otherwise. The destruction of the family unit can be attributed to SOME of this NOT all of it, many nuclear families might appear great on the outside but just as if not more messed up behind the scenes. I would argue that all mass shooters are most of these, mentally ill, not getting any, don't have the support of family and friends and are ticking time bombs.

You will notice that you never see women committing these mass shootings and one of the reasons why is that women seek out community and connection regardless of social class. They make connection a point in their lives. Whereas for men is seen as weak and feminine men are generally afraid to show any emotions out of fear and might not have those support networks in their homes. Toxic masculinity is being looked at now and finally it should be.

I will disagree that harsher punishments are only the answer to seriously violent crime, perhaps illegal possession of a firearm falls into that category and that can and should be debated. I think you would probably agree that Brock Turner, the Stanford swimmer got a slap on the wrist for a rape. or Ethan Couch the affluenza kid should fall into the same category (he killed four people) should get 50 years, I certainly do.

It is very likely that the gang-banger in Chicago didn't start out that way, perhaps they were caught with a dime of weed and got two years in prison for simple drug possession. This same crime a white middle class kid is getting a slap on the wrist for. They were put into a prison system that makes no effort to make this person a productive member of society. This same person gets released and can't get a job because of their record, in many states can't vote and this cycle is very hard to break as their family has limited if any resources to help them and this life is a matter of survival for many.

Do it for the violent stuff and not the ones caught in possession of a small amount of drugs or the guy soliciting a prostitute but the US already incarcerates more people than any other country and that isn't solving a lot of problems.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
2122M
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:06 pm

JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

Great. So that would require action in congress. New rules and regulations and I think would have the overwhelming support of American's. Shouldn't the NRA want to throw its full support behind something like this?


I can understand why the NRA would have a problem with it. The information would likely be public record. There was a newspaper not too long ago that obtained information about local CCW holders and published their named and home addresses for anyone to see. If the information was kept 100% confidential, the NRA would likely be more inclined to support such requirements.


The way it's done around here, the gun itself has an ID (which records the present as well as past owners) and the private transaction is done at the local Police stations with a gun registration office who are the ones doing due diligence.

If you want to sell it to someone out of town you deposit the gun at your local police station, and then is sent for pickup at the police station of the buyers choice.

If you sell it to a licensed dealer, then it's the shop doing all the paperwork with the police so the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a gun you don't want is at your local store, OTOH they tend to pay maybe half of what you'd get on a private sale (them being a business and all that).


Just out of curiosity, where is 'around here'?
 
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seb146
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:01 pm

There is another thread where some posters are going on about "illegals gumming up emergency rooms" so, I just wonder, how many of these shooting victims have insurance enough to pay for the ambulance ride, the paramedics on the scene of the shooting, the work of doctors in triage, extended hospital stay all because a small minority demands all guns all the time no restrictions at all ever, including insurance to own guns.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 pm

2122M wrote:

National gun registry, insurance requirements, universal background checks, allowing the CDC to study gun violence as a public health issue.....

None of the measures prohibit the ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens, would you give them a shot in a effort to save lives?


Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning backdoor prohibition, and it would certainly create the framework to prohibition for law-abiding citizens (like red flag laws do).

2122M wrote:


Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.

2122M wrote:


Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.

2122M wrote:

2122M wrote:

See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:43 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:

National gun registry, insurance requirements, universal background checks, allowing the CDC to study gun violence as a public health issue.....

None of the measures prohibit the ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens, would you give them a shot in a effort to save lives?


Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning it's backdoor prohibition.

2122M wrote:


Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.

2122M wrote:


Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.

2122M wrote:

2122M wrote:

See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?


I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the information provided. It's conclusions run counter to your gut feelings, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that, not does that fact invalidate the studies.

And the registry would slow the free flow of weapons around the country and allow gun owners to be held more accountable. Most people would conclude that as a good thing. I know you are probably of the opinion that anything, and I mean anything that adds one extra step between a person and owning a gun is a terrible, no-good violation of your rights. Frankly, I don't care. Most people support measures that uphold the second amendment but add layers of protection (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx). If you think otherwise, I'm sure I won't change your mind, but again, I really don't care.
 
JJJ
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:34 pm

2122M wrote:
JJJ wrote:
N1611B wrote:

I can understand why the NRA would have a problem with it. The information would likely be public record. There was a newspaper not too long ago that obtained information about local CCW holders and published their named and home addresses for anyone to see. If the information was kept 100% confidential, the NRA would likely be more inclined to support such requirements.


The way it's done around here, the gun itself has an ID (which records the present as well as past owners) and the private transaction is done at the local Police stations with a gun registration office who are the ones doing due diligence.

If you want to sell it to someone out of town you deposit the gun at your local police station, and then is sent for pickup at the police station of the buyers choice.

If you sell it to a licensed dealer, then it's the shop doing all the paperwork with the police so the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a gun you don't want is at your local store, OTOH they tend to pay maybe half of what you'd get on a private sale (them being a business and all that).


Just out of curiosity, where is 'around here'?


Specifically Spain, but many other countries have similar systems.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:59 pm

Fine and dandy in Spain, and wherever else irresponsible gun owners lurk, but in the US, it is in the Constitution. So as I said before, good luck.

As for the NRA badge, I'm not an NRA member.
 
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Tugger
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 pm

N1611B wrote:
That's already illegal, though. The buddy in this case would be facing felony charges for supplying firearms to people who are not allowed to own them. Once again, better enforcement of existing laws is needed before we worry about making new ones.

But why?

Criminals don't follow laws so laws including old existing laws are not going to help. I have been told that over and over again on this site.

Why would "enforcing laws" change your tune about laws when you are saying new ones shouldn't be passed because criminals won't follow them? You are basically saying they can't be enforced? So many are talking in a circle.

I support working on new laws and legislation to attempt to address the holes an gaps and problem areas. I firmly believe that law abiding citizens will follow the law and that law enforcement, with the cooperation and assistance of those law abiding citizens, will curb the criminals and illegal use of firearms.

Will it solve the problem of mass shooting etc.? No of course not. Will it help? Maybe with some but "lone wolf attacks" of any type are tough to address. Will it help reduce the overall death rate caused by firearms? Very likely yes, especially if the laws are well thought out and appropriate and adjusted over time to address weaknesses found in them.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:19 am

extender wrote:
Fine and dandy in Spain, and wherever else irresponsible gun owners lurk, but in the US, it is in the Constitution. So as I said before, good luck.

As for the NRA badge, I'm not an NRA member.


Can you tell me what part of the constitution says we have the right to bear arms without background checks? I really, really hope you are not going to point to 'shall not be infringed' because we have well established precedent that gun regulation falls comfortably within the second amendment framework.

This is not a constitutional issue as long as guns continue to be available to those that want them and can show that they are not a danger to anyone else if they have them.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:04 am

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
Fine and dandy in Spain, and wherever else irresponsible gun owners lurk, but in the US, it is in the Constitution. So as I said before, good luck.

As for the NRA badge, I'm not an NRA member.


Can you tell me what part of the constitution says we have the right to bear arms without background checks? I really, really hope you are not going to point to 'shall not be infringed' because we have well established precedent that gun regulation falls comfortably within the second amendment framework.

This is not a constitutional issue as long as guns continue to be available to those that want them and can show that they are not a danger to anyone else if they have them.


Justice Scalia stated clearly in the Heller decision that the 2nd amendment is by no means unlimited and should not be regarded as such.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MSPNWA
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:02 am

2122M wrote:
I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the information provided. It's conclusions run counter to your gut feelings, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that, not does that fact invalidate the studies.

And the registry would slow the free flow of weapons around the country and allow gun owners to be held more accountable. Most people would conclude that as a good thing. I know you are probably of the opinion that anything, and I mean anything that adds one extra step between a person and owning a gun is a terrible, no-good violation of your rights. Frankly, I don't care. Most people support measures that uphold the second amendment but add layers of protection (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx). If you think otherwise, I'm sure I won't change your mind, but again, I really don't care.


I'm beyond comfortable with the information you provided because it actually supports my argument, as I just exposed. Empirical data is a major issue for those that irrationally fear guns and desire to strip away freedoms.

What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy. Or worse, your government gains permanent control over you. This isn't a democracy. This is a Constitutional Republic. Following polls of ignorant people doesn't equate to sound legislation. Legislators are sworn to protect the minority via the Constitution, not allow mob rule.
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